Remember TIA?...Does that dot connect to FISA controversy?

[Armstead]

A few years ago, former Iran Contra figure John Poindexter was put in charge of a massive data-gathering project, Total Information Awareness. It was a plan to create massive databases on Americans.

When word of that plan leaked out, political pressure over this massive invasion of privacy forced the administration to back off and "end" the program. At least that's what they said they did.

Question that should be asked and investigated by Democrats and other civil libertarians and any honest media reporters.

Does TIA connect somehow with the administratiion's reluctance to seek warrants under FISA? Is the FISA wiretapping controversy just a loose thread in something larger?

Let's hope they try to connect the dots on this.

[mattclearing]

1. It's been done.

TIA was dropped after Congress rejected it. Ironically, TIA had safeguards that the blatantly illegal program does not. I posted about it recently, asking if we were wrong to oppose it, now that we know they went ahead and did it anyway.

[Avalux]

2. TIA was discontinued at the Pentagon

We're thinking the same thing here - the 'program' really wasn't discontinued though; just transferred to the NSA where it went black. There IS much more to this.

[underpants]

3. Post #4 here

That is what this stinks like from 100 yards away.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2443476

[Avalux]

5. Yep - and I hope someone has the guts to dig.

They haven't been spying on a few terrorist suspects here and there - they've been intercepting massive amounts of personal data from satellites and who knows where else - storing it in a secret database. Probably a file on every one of us.

[underpants]

7. I know that Fienstein mentioned the size of this yesterday

Someone else did too.

They said that the only reason they could imagine ( Feingold asked about spying on political opponents) was that this was bigger than they had alluded to and larger than they wanted anyone to know about.

I can't imagine that it is anything but the obvious. They sure pulled off TIA real quick like didn't they?

[Avalux]

10. They have a lot to hide -

and Gonzo says "trust us". The argument that if they disclose the 'program' then terrorists will know what's going on is ludicrous - in fact, it's an insult to anyone with a brain.

No - this isn't about monitoring terrorists. This is about spying on American citizens, political opponents - massively. Remember - the Nixon administration spied on people, and who was part of that administration? They've learned from their mistakes and are doing it better this time. The name of the game is control with the objective of retaining power indefinitely.

[Just Me]

17. Yep. "the objective of retaining power indefinitely" is totalitarianism,.

,...in action. They are destroying our democratic system of government,...from the inside out.

[Armstead]

6. This stinks even if they didn;t spy on political opposnents

We don't get Big Brother overnight. Instead it is a cumulative systemic process in which smaller individual intrusions on rights and privacy are chipped away until a big system exists and is entrenched.

Partisan politics aside, all Americans who still believe in privacy, freedom and democracy should be opposing all of the bricks in the wall.

[underpants]

9. Right this doesn't sell to anyone

okay the hard core supporters will clearly stick with him (who is HE) no matter what is put in front of them. All the polls I've seen say that about 70% don't believe them anyway and if the rank and file find out that this really is Big Brother I just don't think it will sit well with them.

This could give the moderate Republicans (read:non whack jobs) the distance they want from W.

[Canuckistanian]

8. As I recall, there wasn't much protest from the gov't about killing it

Now we know why. It's just gone underground. You think they would have given up on the greatest spying program in the history of mankind?

Not this bunch.

[izzybeans]

4. Kind of like the last message from the office of misinformation was

"We are closing our doors forever."

[endarkenment]

11. YUP

Occurred to me as well that after TIA got scrubbed it went through the backdoor and it is now the 'NSA monitoring of al qaeda calls'. So it also seems quite likely that the NSA does in fact have a cover program that listens in on domestic<->overseas communications, the 'program we are discussing' that gonzales kept repeating, while Son-of-TIA is 'the program we are not discussing'.

[Armstead]

13. Dianne Feinsteain may have been trying to raise it yesterday

It ought to become the program we are discussing. I don't even think your garden variety conservative with any brains would want to live in an Orwellian world where have to be self conscious about every move they make.

[Marie26]

12. I really think so

In Gen. Hayden's interview on This Week, he almost suggested as much. Stephanopolous challenged the NSA's claim that this program could've stopped 9/11 - because the federal gov. was wiretapping some of the suspected terrorists anyway, and still didn't know. Hayden said that he "wished he could reveal the details" of this program, but promised, based on the technology they've employed, that they would be able to "identify potential terrorists." Not eavesdrop, identify. In order to identify someone, you need added information. Hayden's answer seemed to suggest that they are working off of a database of information to "identify" people who are calling.

And during a recent national security hearing, there was an interesting exchange:

A similarly revealing sparring session came when Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon, pressed the intelligence officials about whether a controversial Pentagon data-mining program called Total Information Awareness had been effectively transferred to the intelligence agencies after being shut down by Congress.

Mr. Negroponte and the F.B.I. director, Robert S. Mueller III, both said they did not know. Then came the turn of Gen. Michael V. Hayden, who headed N.S.A. for six years before becoming the principal deputy director of national intelligence last spring.

"Senator," General Hayden said, "I'd like to answer in closed session."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/02/international/02cnd-threat.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1138942800&en=822c59d9e39b3243&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin

Hayden's answer tells me that the TIA program was moved into the NSA. So, the NSA's got two progams - the TIA program, which creates a massive database of information, & the "domestic spying program," which creates a massive list of eavesdropped calls. It stands to reason that they'd combine the two programs to be instantly able to track, identify & name anyone making a targeted call. TIA was probably moved to the NSA for just this reason. There's two "programs" working together at the NSA to accomplish the same purpose - domestic surveillance. This explains why Hayden was so confident that they could now identify 9/11-type terrorists; and it also explains why Gonzales was so careful to limit his testimony to only this specific "program" (to avoid mentioning the TIA one).

[Armstead]

14. "I don't know".....WTF kind of answer is that?

If the quesation had been about the retirement benefits of asn indicvidual staff member, or some minor procedural change, "I don't know" would be an acceptable answer.

But "not knowing" what has happened with such a sweeping and fundamental program? That is so transparent that politicians should not accept that.

[Marie26]

15. Yet Heyden knew

I think it has to go to plausible deniability. If the TIA thing comes out, they're in even deeper water than they are now. So it's important that everyone distance themselves from it now. "I don't know" says "I've got nothing to do w/it." But Hayden couldn't even try to claim that - so I think he's probably the one running the TIA program. He'll be the designated fall guy if it ever comes out.

[Armstead]

16. It's understandable for them to say it, but...

...It's not acceptable for politicians to accept it as an anwer without digging deeper.

[Marie26]

27. Don't understand it

Yeah, how could they leave a bombshell like that w/o asking more? Maybe he said something in private session that satisfied them, but it doesn't satisfy us. It's almost like they don't want to know exactly how much is going on.

[underpants]

18. "I'll have to check with the experts back at the Depratment of Justice"

The other really ridiculous and oft repeated one he used was

"I am told that it is monitored" something like that. He sat there and admitted that he could only testify to what he had been told about some operations. Why are we paying this clown?

[Jose Diablo]

19. TIA was much much more than just intercepting communication

It was about gathering purchasing information, banking information, credit reports, targeted marketing information like those discount food purchase cards at the grocery stores.

In short, it was about gathering all computerized information about everyone, then using a unique identifier, the SS number, to gather any information they wanted about anyone.

The potential for abuse was beyond belief. Congress ordered it dismantled, and now it is surfacing the administration, through the department of defense no less, just moved it to a sub-department that is under a 'national security' cloak.

Remember, the department of defense is also barred from operating domestically, unless an emergency is declared by the state governor or in case of armed insurrection by the president. Has there been an armed insurrection? I don't remember this being in the news.

This is not just illegal, it is waging war against the people, it is treason.

[Armstead]

21. Exactly -- It went far beyond wiretapping terrorists

I'm too moderate to call it treason. But it is a potential misuse of power and would be a systemic danger to privacy and liberty on a massive scale that transcends individual politicians if successfully put in place, regardless of the motivations.

[Jose Diablo]

25. If you look into the definition of war

you will see that spying, is an act of war. I am not being immoderate when I claim that for the department of (defense) war to spy on "the people", it IS an act of war.

[Armstead]

26. Well I don't ;t want to quibble about terms -- I agree that it is...

dangerous and totally wrong.

The lawyers and politicians can sort the rest out.

[Just Me]

22. IOW a "fishing expedition", a "witch hunt", a "big brother" program.

Remember, the BushCO/neoconster regime sought to include the U.S.A. in its declaration of war. So, your characterization of "waging war against the people" is spot-on.

Incredible, isn't it: that this regime's coup against our democratic form of government was complete before 9/11.

Why so many folks, intelligent and well-informed people, are failing to grasp the extent of abuse and criminality by this cabal is simply beyond me. Denial? Fear? I don't know. Are they just waiting to see precisely how far this "trust me" regime will go? Are they nuts?

[oldlady]

23. Where can we find a governor to look into this?

Shouldn't we be writing our governors, instead of our sen/reps?

[Swamp Rat]

20. TIA certainly hasn't forgotten us.

:hide:

[helderheid]

24. I thought you were first referring to a former DUer (whom I miss)

Truth Is All

[Marie26]

28. Just wanted to add...

since no one's mentioned it yet; in Rockafeller's letter to Cheney, he said that he was concerned about the privacy invasions involved in this program. And said that he couldn't understand exactly how the technology worked, but that "TIA springs to mind." This seems to prove that this NSA program is very similar to, or a part of, the old TIA program.