Careful People. Bernice King is NOT her Mother nor her Father

[me b zola]

Bernice King does NOT carry the torch of her parents. Bernice is opposed to gay rights, in direct opposition to her mother's work, and those who worked with Dr King say it is also in opposition to his work.

Besides the article that I listed below that quotes her from a speech that Bernice made in New Zealand, I *heard* the bulk of that speech that was televised on one of the religious station. She clearly is in not in favor of equal rights for GLBTs.



http://rawstory.bluelemur.com/?p=119

[Cha]

1. Is there always at least

one in Every family? A bigot?

[me b zola]

5. It does seem many families have at least one. n/t

[Cha]

6. I can name mine!

Otherwise, everyone is really enlightened :think:

[qwlauren35]

22. That's a Major Leap.

WHICH gay rights are being discussed here???

There is no way to ask if Martin Luther King would have approved of gay marriage, or would have married gay people within his church. The man died long before the gay rights movement came about. One of the most influential black civil rights activists was gay. Bernice King can't not know that.

So, I find myself wondering, what EXACTLY does she stand for... or against. There are lots and lots of people who do not believe in gay marriage, because marriage has a religious significance to them and they believe that their religion does not approve of homosexuality.

Are you REALLY going to tell me that every person who believes this is a Bigot? Does this make Howard Dean a bigot? He certainly did NOT back gay marriage in his state!

So... please dig deeply into King's views before denouncing her.

I firmly believe that saying that people who separate marriage and civil unions for religious reasons are BIGOTS is an extremist position, and in some ways equally bigoted.

I personally am 100% for gay adoption, gay partners, civil unions, equal opportunity for gay employees, and the right to sue against discrimination based on sexual orientation. But I draw the line at saying that every church should be willing to perform marriages between gay couples. And it is insane to pretend that marriage is not one of those things that falls thud across the church/state line. Moreover, in states where the vast majority, i.e. MORE THAN 75%, are not in favor of gay marriage for religious reasons, I think there needs to be some way to extend all people the rights of legal partnership without inciting relisious outrage.

So... getting back to the point... is anyone SURE that Bernice doesn't champion ANY gay rights? Or is it just one right in particular that she's not fighting for???

Aaarrgghhhhh... I don't like seeing gay "rights" being trampled. But I don't like seeing religious freedom getting trampled either. If those of a certain religion have views which come from that faith, that have been thought about, prayed over, deliberated and come to terms with, then name calling just doesn't seem appropriate.

[Neecy]

26. can you pick and choose rights?

First of all, we want the right to civil marriages. I, for one, have no intention of forcing churches to perform the ceremonies. I simply want the exact same legal rights as you enjoy.

How would you feel having to settle for a vague 'civil union' that doesn't give you the same tax benefits, inheritance rights, social security etc (depending on your state)? Why should I settle for this when MY tax dollars are exactly the same as yours?

[qwlauren35]

35. My view

Is that civil unions should have the same legal recognition as church marriages.

I don't think there should be any need to "settle". However, I also know that the decision by gay rights activists to push for "gay marriage" was regarded as extreme, even by many liberals, and the resulting backlash indicates that it may not have been the best strategy toward securing the tax benefits, inheritance rights, social security benefits, etc. that should be extended to all legally partnered spouses.

Yes, Martin did eloquently explain "Why We Can't Wait"... but I don't remember him pushing for any rights that weren't already on the books from the 13th, 14th & 15th Amendments, documented in the 1870's. It simply took 58 years, including a focused 10 year battle by the NAACP Legal Counsel (Thurgood Marshall's old job) to overturn the 1896 Plessy vs. Ferguson "Separate but Equal" legislation.

It's quite possible that it will take that long to overturn the state legislated bans on gay marriages that have occurred over the past 3 years.

I know that "gay marriage" is VERY volatile issue. Obviously, it doesn't impact me directly; however, it does impact some of my friends. If I was currently throwing my energy toward gay rights, it would definitely be toward securing social security, health care and tax benefits as befit long-term couples who make sacrifices for each other as part of their relationship, and ESPECIALLY couples with children. No matter what orientation.

I just don't have the energy to fight for gay marriage.

Frankly... given the history of violence toward gays in America, I am very comfortable drawing comparisons between gay rights and the 1960's civil rights battles. But even though several states said that sex and marriage between the races was illegal, that was never something that anyone focused on compared to the right to stay alive, or hold a job. When African-Americans talk about having NO rights, we're talking about things like: being property, people being able to beat you to death without penalty, not being able to keep your wages, not being able to keep your children, not having standing as a person in court. Those are the types of "rights" that the 13th & 14th Amendments gave to us. Then, the right to vote. THAT is what white people didn't want us to be ale to do. THAT is one of the biggest things we had to fight for in the 1960's. And then, last of all, the right to decent public education.

The gay marriage issue is actually just about MONEY. It's called a "right", but if you really look at it, it's the "right" to a larger tax break, the "right" to reduced inheritance taxes, the right to subsidized medical care, the "right" to a survivor's death benefit. I'm not going to pretend for even one second that money isn't necessary...

But I had a lot more empathy for the "gay rights movement" when you were just fighting to keep from losing jobs or being beaten up for being gay.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans cohabitate without marriage. And yes, it means no tax breaks, no survivor benefits, no family medical plan. However, it doesn't keep them from living together.

If gay people were getting beaten up or killed for living together, I think a lot of us straight folks would be happy to go the "King" route.

But that's not the "right" you're fighting for.

Sometimes, I really wish more people would call a spade a spade. "Gay marriage" is REALLY about money. I don't think the right to a tax break, family medical coverage or social security benefits was something the Founding Fathers were thinking about when they established the Bill of Rights.

[me b zola]

40. No, not really

Equal rights imply the law, the Constitution--not the church. Churches do not legally declare a marrage legal, the state does. Equal rights under the law have nothing to do with any church. Period.

Mrs King spoke in favor of gay rights, those that worked closely with Dr King have said that he could not have supported her message on gays. Please take the time to read the link that I posted in the OP:

http://rawstory.bluelemur.com/?p=119

As far as "many" people being against gay marrage--yes, many people used to be against inter-racial marrage, too. So goes biotry. Most biogots just don't know that they are, indeed, bigots.

[fishwax]

32. more than one in mine

:(

But I'm working on 'em ...

[dflprincess]

39. After John and Robert Kennedy helped get MLK,Jr. out of jail in 1960

Martin Luther King, Sr. - much to the embarrassment of Martin, Jr. publicly said that he would vote for JFK, but he "had never thought I'd ever vote for a Catholic." When asked about the remark JFK smiled and responded "We all have fathers."

Sadly, anyone can be a bigot.

[Dunvegan]

2. And a sad thing that is...

...a tragedy.

Let us hope that she is somehow brought to brother- and sister-hood and tolerance, and love of all people.

Only then can she truly step into the extraordnary legacy of Martin and Coretta.

[Straight Shooter]

3. The best path for some people is the easy path.

For others, it's the true path. Bernice has apparently taken the easy path.

[liberalhistorian]

4. Yes, and her father

would be extremely dismayed and disappointed to see that, too. What a tragedy.

Do you suppose maybe it's her way of trying to differentiate herself from her parents, and create her own identity, as often happens with the children of famous parents?

[bliss_eternal]

16. Definitely a possibility...

I wonder if her siblings share her views?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

7. Compare and contrast

with Ronald Reagan's son.

[me b zola]

8. Which son? I don't understand your point

Careful, I am adopted and I am the daughter of my mother & father.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. Doesn't Ronald Reagan have a son who's fairly left wing?

I don't actually *have* a point as such leading on from that, it just struck me as a potentially interesting comparison.

Why the reference to adoption? Was either Dr King's or president Reagan's relevant offspring adopted?

[me b zola]

31. Yes, Ron Reagan is Liberal

In fact, Ron Reagan has said it is because he is Liberal that he cannot be a Democrat.

I'm sorry that I don't understand your comparison. Pres. Reagan was not a visionary that changed the course of the nation for good, although he was someone who did change the nation for the ugly.

Many people, when speaking about the Reagan's children, always make a point of saying that the wing-nut Reagan was adopted. My point was that they were both sons of Reagan, and for the public to always discuss the biology of their family delegitimizes adopted children.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. I think that the King's and Keyes' must have accidentally switched kids?

[me b zola]

11. Ha, that's a thought.

One of my favorite books is "Women Who Run With The Wolves". The author, Clarissa Pinkola Estes says that many of us feel as though we were born into the "wrong" pack. Indeed, many of us do.

[bliss_eternal]

14. What are the Keyes' kid's views?

I've avoided learning anything about Alan Keyes as I am just so repelled by anything he has to say. So he's kind of off my radar in that respect.

[me b zola]

18. Alan Keyes has a lesbian daughter that they have disowned

He cut his daughter off of funds when she came out, while she was attending collage. It was quite public and very ugly.

[bliss_eternal]

21. That's disgusting!

What an ass...

That poor girl! It's the Keyes' loss. But, good for his daughter for embracing who she is, and not being like the Cheney daughter. I don't get her at all... She campaigned for that ghoul, to her own detriment. :crazy:

[Catfight]

10. Me think she's a lesbian who can't come to terms with it. nt

[bliss_eternal]

13. Hmmm. That's an interesting theory.

I hadn't considered that. Something to chew on... ;)

[me b zola]

15. That is the same thing that has crossed my mind on occasion

I wish her the ability to become comfortable in her own skin.

[bliss_eternal]

12. I just found this out...

disappointing. While my heart goes out to her in her loss, I can't endorse or support her if she does not believe in glbt rights. Sorry, Bereniece.

I choose to live by her mother's beliefs, that gay rights are HUMAN rights--if they are denied rights, we all are--as we are all humans.

[terrya]

17. I think Martin Luther King III is the same

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Dr. King's son is also opposed to equal rights for GLBT folks.

[me b zola]

19. I haven't heard that.

Goodness. I so hope that you are wrong (not that I want YOU to be wrong, you understand). I know that Mrs King has spoken out against homophobia, it was even mentioned in her funeral today. This all makes me very sad.

[bliss_eternal]

20. Unh--that is TRULY disappointing!

:(

I am deeply sorry for his loss, today but I can't support that attitude.

Oh well, another one bites the dust. Won't be endorsing anything he does either.

[wildeyed]

33. Which one?

I believe there are two sons.

Off the top of my head, I think the sons are supportive, or at least on the fence about GBLT rights. But I am not 100% sure. Coretta Scott King, the only family member who knew Dr. King during her adult years, said that she believed her husband would support the struggle for gay rights. Here is a quote from a speech she made:

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'" "I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,"

So although I am disappointed in Bernice King's stance, I don't take it as a reflection of what her father would or would not have believed.

[me b zola]

34. Bernice's mother (Coretta) clearly was against homophobia

Mrs King spoke against homophobia and it was reflected in her funeral tonight.

As for Dr King, I don't believe that he ever specifically spoke about gay rights, but those closest to him have said that they do not believe that he would be in favor of anyone opposing civil rights for anyone--including gays.

~~~~~~~~

"If Dr. King were here today, he wouldn’t participate in this march,” said U.S. Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.), a veteran of the civil rights movement who marched alongside King. “During the civil rights movement, we were trying to take discrimination out of the Constitution.”"

http://rawstory.bluelemur.com/?p=119


This is from the link that I posted in the OP. You should have taken the time to read it. Bernice is the one who is spinning her fathers message (how old was she when he died?) in the face of what her mother & others closest to Dr King has said about his beliefs.

[wildeyed]

43. I was not responding to you.

I was responding to another poster. And the only thing I said, maybe poorly, was that I did not believe that Dr. King's sons were homophobic based on other things I had read, although I don't have he documentation in front of me, and that Coretta and other adults (Bernice and all the other King children were all quite young when they knew their father) who knew Dr. King believe that he would have supported GBLT rights. Bernice was 5 when her father was assassinated. She is welcome to her opinion (which I think is wrong), but I do not believe that she is in a position to state what her father would have thought about the issue.

[cantstandbush]

36. More than that she is firmly in the RW, evangelical fold on all fronts

except war. The church where this service was held is a mega church of the "faith-based-initiative" kind. Receives lots of funding from this admin. as does TD Jakes.

[me b zola]

37. That's what I thought it all boiled down to

How sad. Delivering votes (and hate) for money.

[clitzpah queen]

23. Thank You for posting on the subject of Bernice. I was listening to

her closing firey sermon -- and when I heard her add "perversity" to the list of things we must be vigilant against, I thought BIG oh, oh...But I just REALLY didn't somehow like or trust her (without knowing about her homophobia). Her blustery style -- inserting GOD or the Lord in every other sentence wore me out. She pissed away so many words and was all over the map. She took so long to come to her point -- it seemed clear that she LOVES being up there, awash in the Cadences of a preacher-woman -- more Style than substance. She emphasized the Individual and I think Downplayed the role of the MOVEMENT. I thought her metaphor of the reproductive cancer had potential but I think she kinda blew it. She just felt like an opportunist to me-- god I felt so hungry for the political clarity of some of her Dad's later speeches. Especially now. It's not easy being the kids of famous well-respected political leaders. I can't imagine what it's like to survive the brutal assassination of your world-famous dad at such a young age. But there's been many stories about how the children have been very materialistically oriented in how they administer the estate/legacy of their father in terms of who gets rights to use his material (i.e. the various scandals of corporate use of associating his image to hawk various big businesses, and simultaneous DENIAL of access to groups that walk in MLK's shoes simply because they couldn't come up with the cash). Without Coretta to keep them honest, Who is gonna inherit the mantle of Moral Compass for the family. I worry about that.
Reverend Lowry was Awesome today! Right on the money politically. And Jimmy Carter, just gets better with age. His effectiveness is measured by the shit that he's getting thrown at him by the various RW mental midgets in the MSM.

(edited for spelling and such)

[bliss_eternal]

25. Yikes--perversity?

Was I out of the room or typing when she tossed that one out there? I think that would have tipped me off, too--had I heard it.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this--I enjoyed reading them!

[bliss_eternal]

24. Isn't it ironic...?

That the children of a man that defied religion, to stand up for so many that weren't allowed to speak for themselves, would carry such bias in their hearts and minds?

Remember, when Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. started the civil rights movement, whites used the Bible to validate their bigotry against 'coloreds' or 'negroes.' They could quote chapters and verses that allegedly stated that blacks should not be given the same rights whites were.

Now all these years later, the children of the man that dismissed such arguments would make the same arguments to deny an entire segment of our population rights. Unbelievable.

Those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it...

[Straight Shooter]

28. No BFD if those that don't know their history are doomed to repeat it.

Problem is, they're dragging those of us who do know our history down with them.

So their Daddy opened a mighty door for them, and now they're trying to keep a door closed for another oppressed group. Disgusting. Shameful. Un-Christian.

[bliss_eternal]

30. Good points--

and you're right. It *is* very Un-Christian, at least in my eyes. I bailed on a church long before the elections, for two reasons.

First reason, one of the pastor's incessant need to praise shrub whenever he could, yes even during his services. :puke:

Second reason was the same pastor's belief that homosexuals just needed 'counseling.' Again...:puke: So ignorant, imo.

[AX10]

29. sorry to hear that.

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. It's not just gay rights -- they are much more conservative than parents

n/t

[me b zola]

41. I wish that I knew more about the children's believes

It is just that all that I know about any of them is that Bernice is a gay-basher. Could you post/link any more?

[me b zola]

42. People should be aware

...that just because someone is the "seed" of their parent, that doesn't make them a good seed.