Which flag is more appropriate: Stars & Stripes or Nazi flag?

[BushOut06]

More and more this country is beginning to resemble Nazi Germany. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to display the Nazi flag in front of the White House. Or the Hammer & Sickle of the Soviet Union, take your pick.

[Stephanie]

1. that's stupid

let the republicans fly it, not us.

[BushOut06]

4. More of a statement than anything else

The repugs would never do that, they will continue to wrap themselves in the American flag as they continue to take away precious civil liberties.

I wonder how long before the Stars & Stripes becomes as reviled as the Nazi swastika is? Didn't the swastika once stand for something else?

[Pacifist Patriot]

9. It's an ancient and sacred symbol. Tragedy what happened to it.

It actually wasn't the swastika the Nazi's used. It was a swavastika. A swastika moves clockwise, essentially in the direction of nature, and the swavastika points in the counter-clockwise position.

[Stephanie]

10. that's also stupid

what are you trying to do? the american flag will never "becomes as reviled as the Nazi swastika is" - you are obviously trying to stir up trouble. i think you are posting this garbage so that rw sites can cherrypick it and say that DU wants to fly the nazi flag etc. I don't like your agenda.

[Pacifist Patriot]

12. On the other hand, the unanimous response against it speaks volumes.

[BushOut06]

16. I honestly don't care what the RW freepers think

Since they are the ones actually turning this country into a Nazi state.

[Stephanie]

21. uh-huh

well i'll tell you what - you get your little swastika flag or whatever the hell it is you are advocating here and you fly it in front of YOUR house and then you come back here and tell us how it went and also what exactly you were trying to express with this gesture. i'll wait for your report. but if you don't want to be the only one flying that flag you'll have to hie thyself over to the freepers for company because you won't find any here. your idea is so breathtakingly offensive i can't believe it's still up on the board.

[BushOut06]

24. So my idea is too offensive for this board, but what Bush is doing isn't?

We compare BushCo to Nazi Germany every single day on this board, and for good reason. Besides, see my other response in this thread - I'm not actually suggesting that we do this, I was saying that it would be more appropriate to fly the Nazi flag than the American flag. Which flag is more representative of where this country is now and where it is heading?

[Stephanie]

26. the two are not mutually exclusive

your idea is offensive and so is bush - and if you aren't suggesting we do it why did you post it?

[BushOut06]

28. To make a point.

And it looks like I did it in droves. If it's offensive, then good. Because I'm offended at what's happening. Maybe it will help drive home the point of how dangerous this country is becoming. If it enrages a few people, then so much the better.

Sometimes you have to piss off a lot of people in order to drive home a point.

[Stephanie]

31. and exactly what is your point?

you suggest that Democrats fly the Nazi flag or the hammer and sickle - what point were you trying to make precisely?

[BushOut06]

37. Um, I've been making that point over and over

The point is the Stars & Stripes no longer truly represents where this country is heading. It was meant as a bitter protest. Like I said, sometimes you really have to make a very repulsive statement to make the strongest point possible.

Do I support Nazism? Fuck no.
Am I suggesting we all become good little Nazis? Absolutely not!
Am I questioning which flag is more representative of this country? YES

[Stephanie]

39. You originally suggested that we DEMOCRATS fly the Nazi flag

Now you have changed your post to say that Bush should fly it. Quite a turnaround.

[BushOut06]

41. I meant we as a country

Not just us on DU. I'm sorry if that's the way it came across or sounded, that is why I amended the OP, to rephrase the question better.

[NYCGirl]

43. No, not even we as a country. The flag represents the people of the US,

not the government.

[BushOut06]

45. I don't think the Nazi flag represented all of Germany either

I think most Germans were in the dark about the true evils of the Nazi government, with the final solution et al. Even then, many Germans actively resisted the Nazi regime, risking their lives in doing so.

[NYCGirl]

50. But that has nothing to do with us. The current administration is horrible

but so was the Nixon and Reagan and it goes back to Herbert Hoover and others. The US has always come through it. This too shall pass. Instead of making some silly empty statement, I suggest you work hard to get Democrats elected in 06, if you aren't already doing so.

[Tin Man]

46. Yep, BushOut06 has changed the content of the original post.

Unfortunately, this means that late-comers to this thread won't witness the history of the discussion and understand the context leading to many of these replies.

And yes, the original suggestion by BushOut06 was that DU'ers fly swastikas on Flag Day. If that was simply a badly communicated msg, then fine - restate it, appologize if necessary, but don't edit-out the entire text of the initial post. These types of actions might easily be misinterpreted as the work of a disruptor...

[Stephanie]

48. yes

they could easily be misconstrued. :hi:

[paineinthearse]

18. That subject line is inappropriate

Let's try to be a bit more taseful, less attacking of a personal opinion.

3. Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

[BushOut06]

20. I'm not actually suggesting we DO it - just saying it's more appropriate

It was more of a rhetorical question, designed to stimulate discussion regarding the direction this country is heading. As I said in another reponse on this thread, perhaps we should drape a nazi flag over the White House fence.

[Stephanie]

22. don't tell me what to do

someone comes on this board and suggests we should fly a NAZI flag? that's STUPID and OFFENSIVE. that's not a matter of "taste." i'll respond however I like. I don't answer to you.

[Stephanie]

52. oh, you've edited your post too

so I will address that as well. I did not attack the poster - I said it was a stupid idea. Why are you defending it? Interesting.

[paineinthearse]

57. See Botany's post #3

It's callous statements like that that force the mods to lock good discussions.

If we stay civil, we can have constructive debate.

If we flame, we all lose.

[Stephanie]

61. It is not a FLAME to say his idea was STUPID

He suggested we all fly the SWASTIKA, before he completely changed his post. I did not flame the poster. I said his IDEA was STUPID, which it was. Who made you the post police? If you want to moderate, sign up for the job.

[BushOut06]

63. That's not exactly what I was saying

I never said that we, as the DU community, should fly Nazi flags. I was trying to say that Americans in general might as well fly Nazi flags because that's what this country is becoming. It was a rhetorical question, not a literal suggestion. And yes, I did change the initial post because of this very thing - my message was getting drowned out by all the knee-jerk reactions. I stated that I had changed my post, and gave the reason why I did so - when I could have very easily just changed the post without saying a damned word.

[Stephanie]

65. Spin it however you like

We all read your original post and responded to that before you erased it. The responses in this thread speak to that, not your revised story.

[BushOut06]

66. I'm glad to know that you can read my mind

Because that is certainly NOT what I said. I said "Should we all fly Nazi flags on Flag Day". WHERE in that question did I say that we SHOULD fly them? Where in that did I say that we as the DU community should fly Nazi flags?

[Stephanie]

67. I'm not going to argue with you about the wording of the post you DELETED

spin away - we all saw it

[BushOut06]

69. I just told you what it said!

Subject: Should we all fly the Nazi flag on Flag Day this year?

That's what it said! But you and everyone else kept accusing me of saying that we SHOULD fly the Nazi flag. THAT is why I changed it, because I was sick and fucking tired of being subjected to personal attacks instead of people actually reading the damned post and discussing WHY I said it.

[Stephanie]

71. boo fucking hoo

[BushOut06]

72. I am so sorry

That you feel the need to personally attack me as such.

[NYCGirl]

2. No. Dumbest. idea. ever. NT

[Botany]

3. Start you stop watch .....

..... this post is going buh -by

[Pacifist Patriot]

11. That would be a shame. This could actually turn into an

interesting discussion.

[dolo amber]

5. ...

:rofl:

[Pacifist Patriot]

6. Absolutely not. However...

flying the American flag upside is a sign of distress. Not suggesting anything, just saying.

[Big_Mike]

7. Hell NO!

Fly the Don't Tread on Me or just about any other.

Never, ever do anything to publicize that regime.

Would you wish a political opponent to get AIDS or have their child raped by someone? Some things are just too foul.

[BushOut06]

14. I obviously don't support Nazism, but that's what we're becoming

We're becoming more and more fascist every day, with the illegal wiretaps, arresting protesters, warmongering, etc. I was just calling it for what it is.

Maybe it would be more appropriate to drape the nazi flag over the white house fence.

Besides, the 'Dont tread on me' flag has pretty much been co-opted by the RW nutjobs in places like Montana.

[in_cog_ni_to]

8. Not a good idea. How about an upside down flag? I fly a PEACE flag

and will until our troops are out of harms way.

[AllegroRondo]

13. Peace flag much more appropriate

We want peace, not Nazis.

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. Peace flags are a lovely idea. I agree.

[ryan_cats]

15. Ummm, no!

Ummm, no! No matter your reasoning, flying it will make you look like a Nazi and I know you don't want to look like one. It's the other side that's like Nazi's anyways.

You could fly one of those Star of David with Juden inside it like the Nazis made Jews wear.

[ProfessorGAC]

19. No.

I think it might be wiser to fly the flag upside down for the international symbol of a ship in distress. I think that is equally symbolic, and pretty darned accurate.
The Professor

[Tin Man]

23. Did you accidentally put-on your Bad Idea Jeans this morning?

From the old SNL...


Bad Idea Jeans

< open on group of guys sitting on a bench on a basketball court, laughing >

Guy #1: Hey, we've got our apartment. We ripped up the floors, pipes, wiring, and having everything completely redone.

Guy #2: You're renting, right?

Guy #1: Yeah.

< image on screen: BAD IDEA >

Guy #3: Well, he's an ex free-base addict, and he's trying to turn around, and he needs a place to stay for a couple of months.

< image on screen: BAD IDEA >

Guy #1: < tosses bottle to Guy #2 > Head's up!

Guy #4: Now that I have kids, I feel a lot better having a gun in the house.

< image on screen: BAD IDEA >

< close-up of the jeans they're wearing, the label reads: BAD IDEA JEANS >

Guy #3: I thought about it, and even though it's over, I'm going to tell my wife about the afffair.

< image on screen: BAD IDEA >

< more shots of BAD IDEA jeans >

Guy #5: I don't know the guy, but I've got two kidneys and he needs one, so I figured..

< image on screen: BAD IDEA >

Guy #2: Normally I wear protection, but then I thought, "When am I gonna make it back to Haiti?"

< image on screen: BAD IDEA >

Announcer: Bad Idea Jeans.

< shows a group of tough looking basketball players on the court >

Guy #1: Hey, you guys ready? Let's bet these guys! A hundred bucks.. make that two hundred! Two hundred bucks!

< fade to image on screen: BAD IDEA JEANS >

< fade out >


Thanks to Tony DuMont for this transcript.

[BushOut06]

25. Seems like people are more interested in attacking me than the message

Honestly, tell me which flag best represents the direction the US is heading towards?

If people are pissed off, that's EXACTLY what I wanted to do. But don't get pissed off at ME. Get pissed off at the ones who are turning this country into Nazi America!

[Tin Man]

29. OK, did your message accidentally put-on its Bad Idea Jeans this morning?

:)

[BushOut06]

30. A flag is supposed to be a symbol of the country it represents

And the Stars & Stripes is supposed to stand for liberty and justice. It looks like my OP is generating a lot of knee-jerk reactions, I have yet to see anyone actually address whether or not the Stars & Stripes is still representative of this nation.

[Tin Man]

38. Alright - I'll try to be serious.

I'd venture that your intended message would elude about 99.99% of the folks who might happen to view the swastika flying off the porch of your home. You'd probably just get yourself beat-up by a bunch of angry liberals - hence my original "bad idea" response. :)

[BushOut06]

40. That's why it was a rhetorical, not a literal, question

Designed to draw attention to the direction this country is heading.

Guess I set off one helluva firestorm, eh?

[Tin Man]

49. As for the question of your original post (rhetorical v. literal)

Now that you've completely edited the content of your original post, a latecomer to the discussion is left guessing at what set-off your so-called "firestorm". Whether intended or not, the very fact that you've taken that particular action actually throws your original intent into greater question.

[BushOut06]

56. Yes, I did - and explained why in #33

I made no attempt to hide the fact that I edited my post - in fact, I announced it plain as day for anyone to see, and gave the reason why I did so.

Interesting how many people in this thread continue to attack me directly rather than deal with the message itself. Sure it makes people uncomfortable. You bet your ass it's provocative.

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. Let me say this. I had a similar suggestion, but it was for a protest

and I suggested that everyone wear BROWN SHIRTS to mock the Nazis in power. It was pointed out, rightly so, that the sheeple are too stupid to understand the nuance of such an act. They would see the Brown Shirts and call US Nazis and it would backfire. That's true. It would. We all know how KKKRove and his corporate owned propaganda machine work. That same would happen to the Nazi flag. Also, when I see someone flying that flag...it turns my stomach. The same for the Confederate Flag. It disgusts me.

KKKRove would just turn the Nazi Flag flying back on us and make US look bad because most Americans aren't paying attention like we are. They just wouldn't "get it.":hug:

[ProfessorGAC]

51. Well, I Answered You

An upside down flag represents the state of this country. No? Ships in distress fly the flag upside down as a signal to other ships that they are in bad shape. An upside down flag on a house would, therefore, be appropriate.

I'm not sure i buy the Nazi thing. Authoritarianism, yes. Corporate oligarchy, sure. But, i think the country is in distress and hasn't quite gotten all the way to the edge your question implies.
The Professor

[BushOut06]

59. We use the Nazi analogy each and every day here

- spying on American citizens
- creation of secret internment camps
- detention of American citizens without due process
- United States Secret Service Uniformed Division (US SS)
- warmongering and threatening other nations
- creating a sense of fear and xenophobia in Americans, while appealing to nationalism
- corporate takeover of America

The only thing missing is the rounding up of millions of people - but Nazi Germany existed for several years before the actual Holocaust started.

[ProfessorGAC]

62. I Know. You're Right About That

I don't completely buy it, though. Not just your use of it, but in general. There are things i don't like that they've done, of course. You already know that! Essentially everything you listed.

But, i still think this is OUR DAMN COUNTRY. It does NOT belong to them. And i'll be damned if we change the symbolism over them.

The Professor

[Snivi Yllom]

27. ummmmmmmmmmmmmm NO

:puke:

[NYC Liberal]

32. Fuck no.

Shall we also put on our brown shirts and jackboots and march around arm-forward in a Hitler salute?

[BushOut06]

33. *** I changed the subject & message of the OP ***

To be more reflective of the debate I wanted to have, to make it more accurate. Upon looking at the original post, I realize how offensive and absurd it looked on the surface.

Sorry to those who were genuinely offended, that was not my intention. My intent was to draw attention to the way this country is heading, and how the Stars & Stripes no longer represents what this country stands for.

[Nye Bevan]

34. Absolutely

And to emphasize your point even further, how about for the whole week you dress in full Nazi SS uniform, Swastika armband and all?

:eyes:


(Note- this post addresses the OP's question *before* he edited it. He originally asked whether he should fly a Nazi Swastika at his house on Flag Day)

[chat_noir]

36. Stars and Stripes upside down

sign of distress

[Joe Fields]

42. The Jolly Roger

[BushOut06]

44. Jolly Roger, I like it - Pillage & Plunder

That's what we do best as Americans. I'll take that as a happy medium!

[Joe Fields]

47. ROFLMAO at buffcoat and beaver. Dig it!

[izzybeans]

53. I'd say colonial france

or South Africa. Imperialism and segregation oh my.

[tuckessee]

54. The Nazis never openly bragged about torturing people.

So the Stars & Stripes will do fine.

[mtnsnake]

55. No way.We shouldn't demean the flag just because Bush is similar to Hitler

in so many ways.

Now, calling Bush "Hitler", well that's different. It really bothers the right wing when he's referred to as such, so you know it's true.

[derby378]

58. It's very simple...

You fly the flag that represents who you are and what you stand for. How hard is that?

I will continue to fly the Stars and Stripes in defiance of this neo-fascist regime in Washington DC.

[blue in ohio]

60. A Large Dollar Sign $$$$$$

and the color should be bullshit brown.

[Goldensilence]

68. aaaahhahaha

I'm in for this one! Perfect.

[Rocknrule]

64. No, the Stars and Stripes belong to us

The Republican elephant and/or the "W" will soon be as infamous as the swastika

[BushOut06]

70. Here is the goddamned original post - please read and flame away

Subject: Should we fly the Nazi flag on Flag Day this year?

Message: More and more this country is beginning to resemble Nazi Germany. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to fly the Nazi flag this year. Or the Hammer & Sickle of the Soviet Union, take your pick.

Please - anyone - tell me WHERE in this post did I ever say that we SHOULD fly the Nazi flag? And where in god's name does it say that members of DU should do this? It was a fucking rhetorical question meant to draw attention that this country is becoming more and more like Nazi Germany. That's it. It was not an endorsement of the Nazi flag or its ideology by any means.

[pinto]

73. Locking.

The original post seemed stated as flame bait and became just that. While the edit was a little clearer, the result remains confusing overall. And the flame remains. Locking.