Sometimes I think this place is really out of touch

[Sammy Pepys]

I haven't been here all that long (though I had lurked on and off quite a bit), but lately this place is just kind of wacky. I know TallahasseeGranny was expressing the same yesterday.

I don't think I've seen a greater number of tinfoil hat threads anywhere else (though I don't visit freerepublic, so maybe I'm wrong). Look,I'm all for investigating this administration and getting to the bottom of things, but I think some deference needs to be afforded to obvious truths. "The Brown hearings are a set-up", "The Russell evacuation was perpetrated for the purposes of bugging offices," etc etc etc. don't fall into that category.

Look, I know it's an internet message board, and a good place to flesh out theories and casually BS and things like that...but with everything at stake, why are we so exciting to run off in...ummm..."uncharted directions?" Why not keep the focus on the things we do know, and don't need excessive theorizing?

[Warpy]

All pol sites will attract conspiracy theorists

It's just one of those facts of life. If you don't like conspiracy threads, don't read them. If there are some you enjoy pointing toward snopes.com, then by all means do.

It's your choice.

[Debi]

1. Have you seen the 'hide thread' option?

Use it an the conspiracy theories dissapear. Why not espouse a theory here? Where else should one go to 'think out loud'?

[benburch]

2. Some of the tinfoil hattery is Freeper Trolls...

There are even threads on their message boards where they plot such things.

But understand, this is a community of 80,000 people; There are going to be some real nutjobs in that mix in addition to the trolls.

If you don't like a particular thread, just ignore it! There is even an ignore button that you can use to banish such threads from your sight if they bother you that much!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

18. RWers certainly have their share of tinfoil: Vince Foster, Tyson etc. n/t

[benburch]

21. Correct.

But they invent things to post here.

[QC]

37. Yep, remember Seventhson?

He of Haitian manboobies fame?

[WCGreen]

3. Only becuase nothing seems to be beyond the pale

for these cheap thugs holding office....

Look, they are so drunk with power that they will stop at nothing, nothing I tell you, to maintain that grip...

And time after time they have not failed to live up (down) to their promise....

So, a few people go off the deep end now and then...

But think back a few years, who would have ever thought, for example, that a sitting president would lie to get us into a vanity war....

And remember, these "tinfoil" speculations are not nearly as off the wall as the ones the mainstream republicans kept throwing at the Clintons...

And the air time on all this stuff....

It breed Faux news....

[Marnieworld]

43. Stick around here and you'll be able to believe the unbelievable too

Who would have thought during the 2000 election, when Nader could say with a straight face that there was no difference in the parties, who would have thought that in 5 years we'd have:

Intelligence ignored and then we'd be attacked.
Intelligence manufactured so we could invade a country that isn't a threat to us.
Free Speech existing in zones instead of everywhere.
Hundreds of Muslim Americans kidnapped from their homes by the government without any contact with their families or due process.
The government can stop you from flying without explaining why and without you having the ability to defend yourself.
Guardsmen and reservists are being exploited with endless deployment to avoid the political consequence of a draft.
An off-shore prison camp Gitmo.
Abu Ghraib.
Renditions for torture.
New Orleans drowns and there is no help for a major U.S. city or its citizens before, during and after.

and of course the fact that all phones calls, emails and internet activity is potentially being watched without a warrant for all of us.

They daily, shit on the Constitution and all international laws. Thousands of people have died here due to their willful negligence and tens of thousands more have died overseas due to their imperialism. They want to eviscerate the foundation of our country, checks and balances, and have a dictatorship dressed up in democratic clothing.

How in the world is it so implausible that they would create a phony terror scare to bug an office or two for their purposes? Rove has a documented incident of bugging in his past. Um, hello? Bugging for political purposes has occurred before that we know of- Watergate.

Anyone who has been paying attention knows that these people are capable of anything and will let no morality stop them from attaining their desires.

At one point all of these things would be unthinkable in America.

[zalinda]

4. Because there are some people who really believe it

like "Gore and Bush are the same, so vote for me, Ralph Nader", and they DID! And, they still believe Nader. No telling what lame thing they'll come up with next.

This board may be the only thing in their life. I feel sorry for them.

zalinda

[benburch]

14. Oh don't get me started on those treasonous Nader voters.

There is a special ring of Dante's Hell for just them.

[Atman]

5. If you acknowledge you are presenting a "tin-foil hat" theory...

...it is really a "tin-foil hat" theory? I mean, if I come on INSISTING that the dogs with embedded listening devices are roaming the parks in Washington, then sure, you'd have every right to call "NUT BAG." But sometimes advancing an idea, even one that sounds a bit nutty, can lead another to point out something that actually is not so nutty. It is only when we, as a group, sign onto the wacky theories should one get worried. Otherwise, a theory is just a theory, an idea. Don't lose sleep over it. DU has so many posters, sure some are going to be a bit nutty. The difference between us and the sites you mention is that we joke about our tin foil hats and present our "theories" for just what they are, tin foil hat "theories," whereas they actually believe the loony shit they post without ever suggesting they might be just "tin foil hat" stuff.

IMHO, anyway. But I think that line of reasoning is being beamed into my head via DU's massive servers through my iSight web cam.

[reality based]

6. Keep cool, Sammy, those comments get sorted out

pretty quickly. It's in the nature of instantaneous public commentary for a broad range of opinion to manifest itself. I wouldn't want anything to chill the spontaneity of it all. If you have an objection to a specific post, the reply button is a click away.

[Sammy Pepys]

16. Thanks

I'm just venting more than anything. I'm not bailing out of DU by any stretch, I think I just needed some affirmation from others that,yeah, occasionally there are some "unique" ideas here. :)

[Lars39]

7. I think a lot of people stay here, but expect other people to educate them

At a certain point people need to actually be reading the articles and trying to understand how the information connects.

[bryant69]

8. Adds spice.

Humanity is messed up by it's nature, but it is still better company than, say, cuttlefish.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[myrna minx]

9. PLease read this thread.

We've been trying to diagnose what has been going on...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x372429#373918

[kurth]

10. It's not tinfoil hat:

1. There was a conspiracy in the White House to invade Iraq for no good reason. This is a fact.
2. There is a conspiracy in the White House to loot Social Security and gut social programs, and to enrich GOP cronies and donors. This is a fact.
3. There is a conspiracy in Congress to aid and abet the Bush administration at every turn, and to thwart any effort to provide real oversight and thorough investigation. This is a fact.
4. There is a conspiracy in the media to blindly accept whatever garbage the White House calls news, to spin and bury the bad news and to smear Democrats. This is a fact.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

11. Take everything on the 'Net with a grain of salt

People who are passionate for a cause will take almost anyone's word if it's the opinion they want to hear.

The vast majority here are smart, level headed, and not quick to jump to conclusions. But they aren't necessarily the people who post all the time or tend to concoct thread after thread of pure speculation.

[liberalmike27]

12. I haven't heard that one

But I certainly don't put anything past Bush and his evil cabal. They are capable of anything. If you watch Bush's Brain, a documentary available at Blockbuster for one, you will find that Karl Rove has been doing stuff since the inception of his career that demonstrates a total lack of morals. He even planted a "bug" in his own office just before a debate in one election for Texas agriculture commission, and accused his opponent of doing so. They had lost to where they were dead-even with their opponent, and in desperation to change the discussion just before this final debate, he did this. The FBI investigation was suppressed by Republicans in office, and later it was revealed that the bug had a six hour battery life, of which only fifteen minutes had been used. That means Rove just happened to discover it just after it'd been planted.


So Rove will use anything to win, he has no conscience, and that is why a lot of us will suspect anything. Certainly if he'd not allowed 9/11 to happen, we'd have had another president now. You can make your own judgments on that one, but his ratings were in the toilet before he allowed the worst terrorist attack in history on our soil.

[cali]

13. I have this theory

that a certain percentage of humans have a genetic predispostion toward conspiracy. Seriously, a lot of folks, for whatever the reason, really like to believe in the most preposterous (and thrilling) explanation. It's the opposite of Occam's razor. When they hear hoof beats on Central Park West, not only do they not think horses, they don't think zebras either. More like unicorns. Don't even get them started on skull and bones.

[porphyrian]

15. Why are you interested in controlling the conversation?

If you don't agree with some of the opinions here, that's expected. We're the "big tent" people, not the lock-step people. I'm sure the people you think are "tinfoil hat" in their opinion think you are the one who's out of touch. Welcome to diversity and free thinking.

[leftofthedial]

17. I think you work for the CIA and you're here to distract us

further proof that we're on the right track

Ha! Thought you'd fool us so easily, did you!

[Sammy Pepys]

19. You got me.

::frantically pulls wiretaps off of leftofthedial's phones::

[Kurovski]

46. And I had 22 ounces of chicken soup in my fridge yesterday.

Today? FIFTEEN OUNCES! That's it, 15!

You were in my kitchen, weren't you?

I'm sick of the CIA messing with my staples and condiments! It took me five days to locate the capers. It is a six-course outrage! and as an American, I must insist that it end.

I'm writing the White House, I want a fresh chicken to replace the stolen soup. And I have every intention of getting it.

[benburch]

20. No! He is with the Trilateral Commission!

:evilgrin:

[leftofthedial]

31. "Sammy Pepys" in Hebrew numerology translates to

"Oswald was a patsy"

Coincidence?

I think not.

[orwell]

22. But somehow...

...the conspiracy theory that posits a guy in a cave directed a plot to destroy two large NY skyscrapers and successfully attack the most heavily guarded building in the most heavily guarded city in the world is accepted on its face as unassailable fact. And in a breathtaking feat of "jiu jitsu logic", to assert anything less is derided as "conspiracy theory."

Now that's logical...

:eyes:

[reality based]

28. For people to reject out of hand the idea that conspiracies

exist is a tinfoil hat (i.e. crazy) idea. I've been a part of one or two noncriminal ones myself (long ago).

[0007]

23. Here we go again. ACT II scene 5

[Bridget Burke]

24. Please--reply to any posts with which you disagree.

Express your opinion about whatever "tin foil hat" theory they are pushing. Why make a blanket statement about "this place"?

What do you think about 9/11? Yes, there are those who opine that the planes hitting the WTC were only holograms--explosives in the buildings did the damage! There are (many) others who believe the Bush administration received warnings which they did not heed. Why discount ALL "conspiracy theories" because some are damned unlikely? By the way--"conspiracy theory" is the opposite of the "lone gunman theory." Nobody ever claimed a Lone Gunman did all the damage in 9/11.

[Imalittleteapot]

25. Look, the great thing about DU is

the diversity of the members, the broad range of their posts and the exploration of ideas. Plenty of wacky ideas have later proven to be true. Hang on a while. See for yourself.

[Lars39]

27. DU is often quite a bit ahead of the curve.

How many times have we come across the corporate media letting loose a news item that we've known about for 2-3 yrs?

[MissB]

26. Welcome to DU

Enjoy your stay.

[NoAmericanTaliban]

29. One mans conspiracy theory is another mans fact - some of them are true

One theory I thought was crackpot was the one about a coup attempt on FDR by some top capitalist - turned out to be true & something I learned about on DU. You are empowered to not read posts you don't want to. No one is forcing you to read them. When some of these theories turn out to be true, more theories will be spawned. You can also learn a lot - for example I didn't know about the dogs with listening devices roaming parks in Washington ;-) - although the CIA put cameras on roaches - from History Channel. I believe that there is a conspiracy to complain about conspiracy theories at DU. :tinfoilhat:

[Goblinmonger]

33. One human's conspiracy theory is another human's religion n/t

[zbdent]

30. Well, Michael Moore was called a conspiracy nut

until the White House had to admit that, yes, they did fly Osama bin Laden's family out of the US while most flights were grounded (including lifeflights and organ donations) . . .

Of course, the guy who was in his parents' basement blogging about Dan Rather never did have PROOF that the documents WERE FAKE . . . but he wasn't a conspiracy nut . . .

[dolo amber]

32. *pats cute n00b on the head*

No worries luv...you'll build up a mental callous soon enough, and learn how to filter out all the lunacy. ;)

:hi:

[Lexingtonian]

34. Let 'em have their fun

You are not obligated to take any of it seriously. Don't assume that the people floating these ideas necessarily do either, how ever solemn the tone and passionate the chatter and great the pretension to facts. DU is a cross-section of a lot of the country and it will always reflect a lot of the currents going through parts of it that you and I are not part of. Not everyone is pragmatic, many people do engage their fears and imaginations and vanity on the subjects of the day. It can be a therapeutic thing, an end in itself that you and I can't dissuade folks from.

The present (well, past 2-3 months) is a period in the country in which there is a huge amount of paranoia, frustration, hatred, misfocussed viciousness, intellectual disarray, and ego defensiveness emanating out of the Right nationally as it feels its grip on power weakening. That speech by Bush on November 30 was a massive, necessitated, strategic retreat of Republican Party doctrine/line from offense and fight on the open field to defense and fighting from fortifications. They admitted by the action that they can't dominate, can't impose their will directly on the world and Democrats. Adjusting to this new reality- where they have to attack by stealth, can't afford to take a lot of damage in any one battle, yet have to absolutely defend a set political line at any cost- is really painful deprivation to them. They hate their own vulnerability.

Moderate people are being swept up in these psychological currents. In 2000 to 2003 all the paranoid ones I saw on DU came from the classical Left. The paranoias I've seen during 2005 and now seem all to have their roots in the Right, passed on to DU people via cable TV and church groups and coworkers and right wing agitprop radio.

[Greyhound]

35. "the greatest trick the Devil ever played was convincing us

he doesn't exist"
There are, have been, and probably always will be, real conspiracies. Let me know if you want a list of real, documented, and successful conspiracies.

[Misunderestimator]

36. Yes, let's keep focus on things we know... no use learning anything new.

[Occulus]

38. Well, sometimes, you gotta wonder...

I mean... wtf are we supposed to think when people are told they can't they aren't allowed- to cross a bridge going out of town?

I mean.... why? To what purpose?

Couple that with the ability of the * administration to do anything at all to keep power and demonize their political enemies... and the * family business connections to the Bin Ladins and the Saudis... and the stolen election in FL, 2000..... and on and on and on....


I've been following this administration for between four and six hours a day since before the 2000 election. This is because, the very first time I saw the man's face, I had a physiological reaction I have never had before or again since... vertigo, nausea, a major, but very brief, feeling of disconnect, almost like I'd been dropped into a giant bell that someone then rang as hard as they could.

I knew, knew instantly, without reservation, that this man was bad news. I suspect it's the sort of feeling that causes someone to change their faith if it's religion that's involved. Again, I've never had that sort of reaction to anyone else, before or since.

Some of the "theories"- like those you mentioned- aren't anything of the sort. Others, like why WTC7 fell on 9/11, are more plausible. If the theory involves *co hiding something, I'll at least listen, because truth to these people is worse than holy water for a vampire, and they'll be certain to hide anything that's not beneficial to them unless they can use it to propr up more lies later on.

And that's what's so frustrating, isn't it? We have really no idea what's actually going on. All we have is what people- some of them, members of Congress- are willing to say to the nation or to us directly.

Fake terror alerts, used for political gain (by bumping danaging stories off the public radar)?
Letting NOLA drown (think on the political effects of hurricane Katrina on this one)?
WMDs?
Valerie Plame (WAS she outed to end the BJA operation? WAS BJ getting "close" to "discovering" planted WMDs, perhaps? Was BJA actually about to catch *co doing something? Was petty revenge ever really a good enough reason to out her and her operation? Can we believe *co when it says no real damage was done to the "Brewster Jennings & Associates" operation Plame was involved with?)

My point is, this administrtion is certainly capable of an awful lot of really bad things, and we should, in all prudence, welcome an overestimation of their capabilities. If we consistently underestimate what they're willing to do, it will bring us to grief in the end.

[tnlefty]

39. Go read Maureen Farrell's new series, Top 10 Conspiracies about George

W. Bush, www.buzzflash.com, and take the time to read all of the supporting documentation that she has compiled. That should keep you busy for the next few hours or even a day or two. Perhaps you will have a better idea of why so many are so suspicious. She wrote an earlier piece, The Attack Has Been Spectaular, which is well documented and is a real eye-opener, too.

[applegrove]

40. We know the WH likes myth. We know Brownie has been kept

close since he was fired. Asking if this is another myth is not so wrong.

[havocmom]

41. Bookmark this thread! Great entertainment

especially for those facing a big snowstorm ;)

[Child_Of_Isis]

42. keep the focus on the things we do know,

You mean the things that our bush cabal media tell us?

[Catherine Vincent]

44. This is a message board with thousands of people talking and

airing out differences and ideas. That is all. Don't take it serious.

[kentuck]

45. Also, sometimes I think...

some people are out of place. They may come in with some misperception..

[Susang]

47. Aren't you cute!

Chastising an internet forum for being speculative and a touch paranoid and he thinks we're the ones that are out of touch. Simply adorable! :*