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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:04 PM
Original message
God help us..It's worst than I thought
Still have not found the MTP transcript from this morning BUT found this instead. We can 'thank' Congress for this.

quote......

The Security Threat of Unchecked Presidential Power
This past Thursday, the New York Times exposed the most significant violation of federal surveillance law in the post-Watergate era. President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to engage in domestic spying, wiretapping thousands of Americans and bypassing the legal procedures regulating this activity.

This isn't about the spying, although that's a major issue in itself. This is about the Fourth Amendment protections against illegal search. This is about circumventing a teeny tiny check by the judicial branch, placed there by the legislative branch, placed there 27 years ago -- on the last occasion that the executive branch abused its power so broadly.

In defending this secret spying on Americans, Bush said that he relied on his constitutional powers (Article 2) and the joint resolution passed by Congress after 9/11 that led to the war in Iraq. This rationale was spelled out in a memo written by John Yoo, a White House attorney, less than two weeks after the attacks of 9/11. It's a dense read and a terrifying piece of legal contortionism, but it basically says that the president has unlimited powers to fight terrorism. He can spy on anyone, arrest anyone, and kidnap anyone and ship him to another country ... merely on the suspicion that he might be a terrorist. And according to the memo, this power lasts until there is no more terrorism in the world.

Yoo starts by arguing that the Constitution gives the president total power during wartime. He also notes that Congress has recently been quiescent when the president takes some military action on his own, citing President Clinton's 1998 strike against Sudan and Afghanistan.

Yoo then says: "The terrorist incidents of September 11, 2001, were surely far graver a threat to the national security of the United States than the 1998 attacks. ... The President's power to respond militarily to the later attacks must be correspondingly broader."

This is novel reasoning. It's as if the police would have greater powers when investigating a murder than a burglary.

More to the point, the congressional resolution of Sept. 14, 2001, specifically refused the White House's initial attempt to seek authority to preempt any future acts of terrorism, and narrowly gave Bush permission to go after those responsible for the attacks on the Pentagon and World Trade Center.

Yoo's memo ignored this. Written 11 days after Congress refused to grant the president wide-ranging powers, it admitted that "the Joint Resolution is somewhat narrower than the President's constitutional authority," but argued "the President's broad constitutional power to use military force ... would allow the President to ... whatever actions he deems appropriate ... to pre-empt or respond to terrorist threats from new quarters."

Even if Congress specifically says no.

The result is that the president's wartime powers, with its armies, battles, victories, and congressional declarations, now extend to the rhetorical "War on Terror": a war with no fronts, no boundaries, no opposing army, and -- most ominously -- no knowable "victory." Investigations, arrests, and trials are not tools of war. But according to the Yoo memo, the president can define war however he chooses, and remain "at war" for as long as he chooses.

This is indefinite dictatorial power

end quote......
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/12/the_security_th_1.html
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is John Yoo North Korean?
Just asking.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. John Yoo is employed by that West Coast bastion of communism...
UCB :shrug:
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Truth be told, Berkeley is not the best place for free speech
Speech codes (bans on "hate speech), conservative student newspapers are regularly snatched from bins and thrown away, and speakers are often shouted down.
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LunaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
38. South Korean
And once upon a time, a law clerk to Justice Clarence Thomas.
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. Uh, yeah, not to seem condescending, but I've been saying this for years,
literally.

Nobody has cared enough so far to put their foot down. And in fact, as you point out, he still has these powers.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. I've been saying/posting it for years also
but this has NO legs. Americans would rather be protected than free....so what do we do?
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Americans are in major denial. I have no idea how to get through
such a fortress.

Any leaders among us?
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LiberalPartisan Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. All due to the dumbing down of America
Produce a generation of poorly educated people and you can sell them anything - especially when it's bundled with a healthy dose of fear: 'Osama is coming..Osama is coming.'

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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I think you're right. Ain't no coincidence that Bush has decimated
public education while in office.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. Ding ding ding
Why else do you think they pander so much to the "religious right"?
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electron_blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. For sure. Faith-based initiatives get us used to just taking their
word for it. Taking it on faith, unquestioning blind masses. We used to be such a "show-me" country.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
40. Of course Osama is coming.
Bush let him get away!
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. The loud noise of the MSM propagandists
have put us in this situation. We have always had a leader in time of revolution, but sadly we have none in the democratic party prepared to take on the thugs. They are either spineless or powerless. I love the entire progressive part of the congress but sadly they have no power.
I am beside myself when people think a nuke can keep them safe, IF he goes to war with Iran we are in deep shit.
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DarkmoonIkonoklast Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Does anyone besides me see a "Wag The Dog" scenario here?
Not a "let's distract attention from the President's sexual peccadillo" scenario, but rather a "Let's provoke the American People into demanding Martial Law 'For Our Own Good'" scenario...

Frankly, 9/11 never quite felt like a bin Ladin/al Qaeda production... not bloody enough for them. I never understood why the strikes on the WTC weren't timed for the height of the business day, rather than a (relatively) uncrowded time period. I remember bin Ladin striking for the maximum possible body count... this just didn't seem to fit.

Why? Well, the afore-mentioned "police state" would be a suitable rationale... also, as provocation for Christian Jihad (or am I the only one who sees Armageddon Theology at work in the inner sanctum?). And, of course, Endless War means Endless Profit for Halliburton, for PetroInc, as well as for PharmaInc, for AgriInc, et al...

Someone PLEASE make a convincing argument that I'm imagining all of this, and that I need to check in to a hospital at once "for my own good"! I don't want to be right... again! I don't goosestep worth a DAMN!
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's Woodrow Wilson revisited is what this is.
He is the most totalitarian president to sit in office in the 20th century. It's too early to tell, but I hope Bush will be the most totalitarian of the 21st century because if there is a future president who is even worse than Bush, we're in for a long ride.
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DarkmoonIkonoklast Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. unless Bush II is the LAST President of the 21st century...
... followed by George II of the House of Bush, followed by Neil I, followed by Jed I, followed by...

I'm feeling the "endless bootheels in the face" thing...
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. What they think of the constitution of the
United States of America


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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. That's perfect 4Moronic
Never saw it depicted better. The only thing you need is two folders to make it accurate after he wipes. A pile A and a pile B. :rofl:
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. The new streamlined American system of government according to Yoo
A brief primer designed to help you understand the workings of our new, streamlined American system of government.


JON CARROLL (SF Chronicle)
01/02/2006

Perhaps you have been unable to follow the intricacies
of the logic used by John Yoo, the UC Berkeley law
professor who has emerged as the president's foremost
apologist for all the stuff he has to apologize for. I
have therefore prepared a brief, informal summary of
the relevant arguments.

Why does the president have the power to unilaterally
authorize wiretaps of American citizens?

Because he is the president.

Does the president always have that power?

No. Only when he is fighting the war on terror does he
have that power.

When will the war on terror be over?

The fight against terror is eternal. Terror is not a
nation; it is a tactic. As long as the president is
fighting a tactic, he can use any means he deems
appropriate.

Why does the president have that power?

It's in the Constitution.

Where in the Constitution?

It can be inferred from the Constitution. When the
president is protecting America, he may by definition
make any inference from the Constitution that he
chooses. He is keeping America safe.

Who decides what measures are necessary to keep
America safe?

The president.

Who has oversight over the actions of the president?

The president oversees his own actions. If at any time
he determines that he is a danger to America, he has
the right to wiretap himself, name himself an enemy
combatant and spirit himself away to a secret prison
in Egypt.

But isn't there a secret court, the FISA court, that
has the power to authorize wiretapping warrants?
Wasn't that court set up for just such situations
when national security is at stake?

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court might
disagree with the president. It might thwart his
plans. It is a danger to the democracy that we hold
so dear. We must never let the courts stand in the way
of America's safety.

So there are no guarantees that the president will act
in the best interests of the country?

The president was elected by the people. They chose
him; therefore he represents the will of the people.
The people would never act against their own
interests; therefore, the president can never act
against the best interests of the people. It's a
doctrine I like to call "the triumph of the will."

But surely the Congress was also elected by the
people, and therefore also represents the will of the
people. Is that not true?

Congress? Please.

It's sounding more and more as if your version of the
presidency resembles an absolute monarchy. Does it?

Of course not. We Americans hate kings. Kings must
wear crowns and visit trade fairs and expositions.
The president only wears a cowboy hat and visits
military bases, and then only if he wants to.

Can the president authorize torture?

No. The president can only authorize appropriate
means.

Could those appropriate means include torture?

It's not torture if the president says it's not
torture. It's merely appropriate. Remember, America
is under constant attack from terrorism. The
president must use any means necessary to protect
America.

Won't the American people object?

Not if they're scared enough.

What if the Supreme Court rules against the president?

The president has respect for the Supreme Court. We
are a nation of laws, not of men. In the unlikely
event that the court would rule against the
president, he has the right to deny that he was ever
doing what he was accused of doing, and to keep
further actions secret. He also has the right to
rename any practices the court finds repugnant.
"Wiretapping" could be called "protective listening."
There's nothing the matter with protective listening.

Recently, a White House spokesman defended the
wiretaps this way: "This is not about monitoring
phone calls designed to arrange Little League practice
or what to bring to a potluck dinner. These are
designed to monitor calls from very bad people to
very bad people who have a history of blowing up
commuter trains, weddings and churches." If these
very bad people have blown up churches, why not just
arrest them?

That information is classified.

Have many weddings been blown up by terrorists?

No, they haven't, which is proof that the system
works. The president does reserve the right to blow
up gay terrorist weddings -- but only if he
determines that the safety of the nation is at stake.
The president is also keeping his eye on churches,
many of which have become fonts of sedition. I do not
believe that the president has any problem with
commuter trains, although that could always change.

So this policy will be in place right up until the
next election?

Election? Let's just say that we'll cross that bridge
when we come to it. It may not be wise to have an
election in a time of national peril.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/01/02/DDG5TG01E31.DTL
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. That's a great piece, BrotherBuzz
And it's absolutely how * thinks.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Ohhhhhhhh my, Is this satire?
or an honest interpretation? I have come to the conclusion that Congress has no intention of exercising their constitutional right IF this had not been leaked,
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. I wish it was just satire
Jon Carroll did an excellent job of smacking down John Yoo's Circular logic fallacy. He laid it out and took it to the logical conclusion for all to see by painting a Catch 22 moment (Joseph Heller is smiling). Sadly, this nation has become so damn complicit it doesn't give a damn as long as Nascar and football are on television. Ooooh, high definition TV!!!!
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I'm rolling on the floor
I was sure you were going to tell me this was satire. As I wrote below; I agree with you. Nothing will happen because Americans support being kept safe. Freedom is secondary as long as you have all your 'toys'
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Absolutely superb. IT's EXACTLY what the WH claims. n/t
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BookemDano Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
39. Thank you
So correct I must compliment the members of the DU you are all so smart and so well informed!I am 26 and I read the article in newsweek about this I hope as I age I will be able to post things that are so eloquent and articulate!I will keep learning and listening and in this scary time I pray the Dem's will get a spine and restore the US to a respectable Democracy!We once were and I don't buy for a minute that the terrorism here will last forever I really think once that fascist dictator is out of office!!We will be able to repaire the wounds that are so deep now yes,I am still optimistic that there is a better way and we can have it just how much are we willing to fight for it?I will always fight for what is rite kind and decent because we are! We just can' give up!To me it is so sad it's the end of Democracy right now!There is a better world and we have to keep being the people we are and no matter how dark it seems to not give up ever!Heres one of my fav quotes I am sure you all know "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
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Dr. Jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Whoa...
time to IMPEACH!! Albeit I fear it's all too late.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. so to paraphrase this: some scummy little nazi says that the scummy
nazis in the gummit can make us into that axis of evil, north korea replete with great porn collectons (abu graib piccies) and sick sycophants proping up the tiny dictator. Great. Can we deport the wanker now or is he a home grown fascist?
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Yoo is their source for justification and Dems are sitting on their ass!
WTF is wrong with the Democrats?!?!?


Yoo is a TRAITOR to this country! He's a vile, despicable WORM!
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. He's not even a home-grown traitor
He doesn't give a rat's ass about the Constitution-- he wants the US to be a dictatorship, just like his native South Korea was.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. If * has unlimited power during "wartime", then will he be Prez past 2009?
Will he relinquish power to whomever we elect (or Diebold selects)? That is my fear because the hubris is enormous in this man.
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You answer your own question
Edited on Sun Feb-12-06 05:39 PM by serryjw
( selected by Diebold) After HAVA becomes the law of the land we will never have another honest election. MSM propagandists will tell Americans that * and his heir apparent will keep us safe.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. And Amurka will hide behind him like cowards.
Why are people so scared of a few terrists?
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Cry Baby..i posted before
than less than 20% of Americans lived through WWII and the depression. They only KNOW these freedoms and take them for granted. That is WHY we will lose ROE. You don't know what you have until it is TOO late.
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cry baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. yes, you're so right, sadly. nt
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DarkmoonIkonoklast Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Damnit, serryjw, you're supposed to tell me I'm WRONG, here...
... not confirm the nightmnare I've lived ever since that damned shrub declared for the Fuhrership back in '99...

:grr: :banghead: :hide:
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gilpo Donating Member (601 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. My thoughts exactly
What's to stop shrub from deciding that it would be "too dangerous" for the country if he stepped down now? Same problem with impeachment, too. I was talking to a few people at work about this exact thing, they laughed for a second, then... awkward silence, looking a shoes, etc. Not a nice thing to contemplate.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Only after they stage another major terrorists attack in 2008, before
the elections.
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phoebe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. John Yoo = writer of the Patriot Act
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serryjw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Professor Yoo Yoo
quote......
CP: When did you become a Republican, and why?

Yoo: I’ve always been a registered Republican, since I could vote. I do agree with what I consider the basic Republican beliefs: limited government in areas aside from foreign affairs and security and government intervention in society should be as narrow as possible
end quote....
Wonder how he feels about FMA??What does marriage have to do with the constitution?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
45. Actually, Viet Dinh is credited with writing the Patriot Act
http://www.newu.uci.edu/article.php?id=3129

John Yoo is responsible for the "torture memo" that the Bush regime used as legal cover for detention/interrogation policies.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. k&r
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
32. kicked and recommended
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
33. Do these people even read their Constitution?
Goodness. The "Commander in Chief" is ONLY for the MILITARY. NOT FOR ME AS A CITIZEN! He has no right to trample on my amendment rights as stated in the Constitution or anyone else's. :mad: I can't stand this!
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Stand and Fight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
34. ......
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
36. Why do you think 9/11 happened?
To change our laws period.
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-13-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
44. I think you guys missed this one --
Yoo has stated that the President has the power to crush a child's testicles. This was forced from him during testimony.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2358869
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