After 10 years of being "out of the closet": a rumination

[greekspeak]

Today marks the 10th anniversery of what I mark as my coming out of the closet as a gay man. A full decade. It is quite hard to believe; I remember the day like it was yesterday. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. What is life like for this gay man 10 years out, in Shrub's America? Well, I think everything is a wash. I add all the gains, and note that there are a lot. No more hateful homophobic sodomy laws. That is a good thing. Fewer people, I think, find homosexuality to be a menace, an evil, a problem. The homophobic bigot that headed the university I attended back then has retired and has been replaced with a more moderate voice. There are a lot more protective laws on the books; there are a lot more companies with "domestic partner benefits." We can get married or partnered legally in a lot more places. Gay people are all over TV. These are good things. However...

A lot more people and places have made official their homophobia. States with homophobic "protection of marriage" legislation and constitutional ammendments have emerged. Most of our country's Repulican leadership would love to constitutionally strip us of our human rights, and as they remain powerful, they become more vicious in what the demand. Gay people are still attacked--murdered, beaten, assaulted verbally, dragged behind pick-up trucks. Religious denominations are polarizing over whether gays should be clergy or even ministers. Torn gay athletes still feel they have to remain in the closet. Gay women are still objectified by many straight men who think lesbian sex is "hot." Religious leaders feel even more free to blame everything from terror attacks to hurricanes on gay people. The people who follow them accept such rhetoric with more zeal than ever. Though gay people are all over TV, the number of shows where gay stereotypes are reinforced seem to dominate. I met my husband almost 10 years ago. We still love one another as much as we did on day one, but I am always afraid of being hate-crimed for who we are.
I still look at countries in Europe and wonder how they became freer societies than America.

I guess it all kinda comes out in the wash. We gay folk seem to take a step forward as social peers, then one step back. Our fight is not over; far from it. We and our straight allies must continue to fight the social battles put before us. We must be resolved to gain our full freedom, or we never will. Supportive communities like DU are models for what America should be--I have never heard a homophobic comment here from a bona fide member. So to all you members of the queer community--remember who you are and that we have to remain as one in our fight for equality. We are here and we are queer, and we are NOT going anywhere!

[meegbear]

1. Hear Hear!!

And Happy Anniversary!!

[greekspeak]

5. Thank you!

I am celebrating by going to work and knowing that the people I work with are people of good will.

[ScreamingMeemie]

2. Kicked,Recommended, and hearted!

greekspeak, your fight is my fight...our fight. As a community we can change things. I will never let you be jettisoned off as a "wedge issue", I will never back off from seeing you receive the rights and respect you are entitled to as an American citizen. Congrats on your upcoming anniversary.

~Laura

edited: before the grammar nazi arrives.

[greekspeak]

7. Thank you, my dear woman!

Until we are all free, none of us are really free.

[BOSSHOG]

3. I think its time for a tea party

frist is going to introduce the no same sex ban in June. Bottom line, that would restrict equal protection. I urge the gay community to fill all the harbors from coast to coast with tea, or an equivalent symbolic item.

[greekspeak]

9. Fill his office with tea bags. Mail tons of them to Frist

Homophobes like him are the reason why my dander is always up and I am always vigilant.

[marmar]

4. Happy anniversary...

and speaking as a straight African American male ally, equality WILL be achieved when we stop allowing the Reich Wing to throw up these phoney issue divides between gays and lesbians, African Americans, Latinos, women and any other group that's been excluded in one way or another.
Unified, there will be no stopping us.

[greekspeak]

11. "Unified, there will be no stopping us"

Its the same old enemies of real freedom that African Americans, Latinos, women and other marginalized groups have been fighting for years. The names change, the fight never does. Letting the right wing wedge us apart with their wedge issues makes us weak. Playing on predjudice is what they do best. How do we all become resiliant to it? We have to realize that we share the same enemies.

[im10ashus]

6. Happy Anniversary!

This gay man is here for the fight! Happy 10th year! :hug:

[greekspeak]

14. Thank you!!!

:hug:

[im10ashus]

18. You betcha!

There's safety in numbers. :-)

[AussieDave]

8. Well said, and congrats on 10 years

The social battles, I believe, will not be fully won in my lifetime (I'll be 50 next month) - to put it crudely it's street warfare, fought street by street, house by house. As you put it, it's one step forward, one step back - but I believe the step forward is a little longer than the step back.

The bigots are a vast minority, but unfortunately at the moment they have the levers of power and a lot of the airwaves. But eventually, like Joe McCarthy, they'll be exposed and denounced - and their power will erode. It'll take time, but in the end we'll have true equality - I probably won't live to see it, but it'll come. Patience is all we need.

[greekspeak]

13. Sir, I hope you are wrong. I want you to know a more equal world!

:pals:

[AussieDave]

19. I fervently hope I'm wrong too

and thank you for the post - thoughtful and generous.:hug:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

10. Happy Anniversary greekspeak!

May the next 10 years contain more steps forward, no back-steps. :hug:

[greekspeak]

12. Thank you!

[H2O Man]

15. Good post.

Thank you for this interesting, thought-provoking post.

[rodeodance]

16. nice. thanks for the note.

[Rowdyboy]

17. Nicely put.....and hope you guys have a great anniversary....

Working on 17 years with my guy who never ceases to amaze me.

[greekspeak]

21. Amazing! And good for you!

:grouphug:

[Coexist]

20. I am trying my very best to raise my kids to be tolerant

and open minded about everything. Keep the faith.

[greekspeak]

22. I'm sure you have a battle on your hands...thanks for being a good parent!

:hi:

[Mnemosyne]

23. Thank you for sharing this greekspeak!

Happy Anniversary and Valentine's Day!

My best friend is a gay man. I worry about someone hurting him for who he is and it infuriates me that anyone should ever be harmed for just being themselves.

I get so tired of the ignorance I hear. The old standby "they just need a real man/woman" is one that drives me nearly ballistic!:nuke:

I'm so glad you have found happiness in your life.:hug:

You are so right, none of us can ever be free when even one of us is not.:hi:

In peace and hope,
Still,
V

[RazzleDazzle]

24. ????

Gay women are still objectified by many straight men who think lesbian sex is "hot."

Oh, like straight women aren't objectified sexually? I'm half-way offended by this comment or maybe more once I think about it some, in an otherwise good post. It's just lesbian women whose objectification you mind? Or do you not recognize that the core problem on that is the objectification of ALL women?

I've often observed that few people of oppressed groups bother to realize that we're all in this together: that if we differentiate between our oppressions, if we fail to work towards equality for ALL of us (minorities, women, GLBT, differently abled, elderly, etc.), we will never, ever, ever prevail but instead actively assist those who benefit from our oppression.

Sadly, as I said, I see too few gay men (and women!), and too few minorities giving a damn about other groups. Would that they realized they retard their OWN progress in the process.

[H2O Man]

28. I respectfully disagree,

and strongly, at that. Greekspeak had addressed a specific group in this OP. Because he didn't include every oppressed group is hardly grounds to find fault with what is expressed here. As a person who has been actively involved in grass roots political and social activism for decades, I can say that the gay and lesbian community has always been involved in progressive movements, and working to build linkages with every other group that I've been involved in -- from environmental to Native American issues, to minority rights and the struggle to protect those of minority ethnic and religious groups from violence. The Southern Poverty Law Center's statistics on the gross increases in violence being directed against gay and lesbian people is stunning, and makes clear that it is a topic that deserves -- indeed, demands -- our attention. It hardly distracts from other related issues.

[RazzleDazzle]

41. And may I suggest

you read my post and concentrate on identifying what, exactly, my complaint is??

Here's a hint:

Because he didn't include every oppressed group is hardly grounds to find fault with what is expressed here.

It was one sentence I found fault with.

And then I went on to muse about members of other groups -- and in rereading it I really should've been more specific: I MEANT DUers -- and I said this:

Sadly, as I said, I see too few gay men (and women!), and too few minorities giving a damn about other groups. Would that they realized they retard their OWN progress in the process.

I see it petty much every day. Very, very few gay men -- I can't name one -- and not enough gay WOMEN, bother to defend against the rampant sexism right here. Frankly, I consider the statement I took exception to a sterling example: he can identify that it's gay women being objectified but he can't connect that to the larger problem of all women being objecified in that way, and such an acknolwedgment would have only taken a few words. I don't see many black MEN at DU even get it (and some are as sexist as I can personally stomach without going postal), let alone defend against sexism here, and the women whom I know are black are kind of a mixed bag. Some of them don't get it either. As for Latinos and Native Americans, again, not enough pro-women sentiment among those I know belong to these groups.

Even you -- you had something quite positive to say a few weeks ago, but when I challenged you on contributing more to the issue, you were too busy. But miraculously, you're NOT too busy to come to this gay man's defense by mis-reading what I've got to say and scolding ME. Your performance and obvious priorities points to what you said before being mere lip service. YOU may think sexism is crucially important but damn if you've got the time (or interest) to do anything about it. So be it. You're not alone. In fact, you're in good company. The few men here who even get it (and we're talking precious, precious few) don't bother to DO anything about it either. :shrug:

[H2O Man]

64. I did not "misread" your post.

I read and understood exactly what you said. I responded to specific errors in your post. Your response here simply proves my point. Thank you for that.

[marmar]

76. As an African American male...

I really take exception to these rash generalizations. Perhaps you need to get to know more African Americans, Latinos, Native Americans and gays and lesbians.

[greekspeak]

29. I am sorry to upset you...it was not my intention

I find the objectification of women to be wrong, period. I did not not mean to imply otherwise. It does seem to me that lesbians are especially prone to this: the mindset that "lesbians is hot" and that is truly all lesbians are good for is a load of crap. Again, do not think that this is the only objectification of women that I find wrong...it is wrong, period.

[RazzleDazzle]

43. I know it wasn't your intention

and I didn't want to hijack your thread. It's just that -- well, read my response to H2O and perhaps you'll understand a bit better. I've spent time, energy and money working to benefit other oppressed groups precisely because it is all of one piece, and I see precious little reciprocity. In some cases, none. That plus the devastatingly rampant sexism at DU, which very few IF ANY gay men bother to participate in on our behalf, and I guess I'm a little sensitive on the issue.

That said, I do realize that the lesbian sex thing is a special burden for gay women. But it IS, still, a subset of the broader issue.

So, can I look forward to your participation on threads where sexism reigns supreme hereafter? Can I look forward to you alerting on sexist language and posts? I hope so.

[greekspeak]

57. I will be happy to point out sexism where I see it.

I cannot gaurentee that my definition will exactly match your definition of sexist langauge. I have based what I consider to be sexist language on what I was taught in school, from my involvement in feminist groups, and also from what my close feminist freinds have taught me.

And as for participating in threads where "sexism reigns supreme," see my response above. I don't particiapte in all the queer threads I see, nor do I expect everyone else to. On the same token, I do not participate in all the posts about sexism.

[libnnc]

30. You don't know your own history.

"Sadly, as I said, I see too few gay men (and women!), and too few minorities giving a damn about other groups. Would that they realized they retard their OWN progress in the process."


It was the LESBIANS within the early women's movement who did the lionshare of the work AND who were summarily drummed out of Betty Friedan's movement via her own homophobic, McCarthy-like tactics. Lesbians worked their asses off to ensure that you had reproductive freedoms. Women like Rita Mae Brown, Karla Jay, Kate Millett and Charlotte Bunch put themselves in harm's way working for a movement that, at the time, refused to speak for them or encourage their sexual honesty in any way. To put it plainly, they were PUNISHED by straight women who didn't want their help for fear of being called "dykes".

Lesbians did care. We still care.

You need to do some reading.

edited for clarity 'cause I'm pissed.

[hfojvt]

31. the "early" women's movement

is Charlotte Perkins Gilman, Amelia Jenks Bloomer, Susan B. Anthony, etc. and before that Mary Wollstonecraft. At least, earlier than Frieden.

We cannot all be aware of all history, and you did not suggest a book, or an author. I can understand problems there as feminists would perhaps like to avoid an "all feminists are lesbians" stereotype that might hurt the women's movement, even more so in the climate of the times.

[libnnc]

33. Of course I meant what some historians have called the "Second Wave"

of the modern women's movement.

Here is a brief bibliography that was used to write my 25 page paper ("Revenge of the Lavender Menace: Lesbian Visibility in the Modern Women's Movement 1967-1974") on the subject:

Primary Sources: Newspapers and Magazines

Brownmiller, Susan. "Sisterhood is Powerful." New York Times Magazine, 15 March 1970.

Harris, Bertha. "Elaine Noble and Rita Mae Brown--A Dialogue." Christoper Street Magazine (July 1976): 23-25.

Martin, Del and Phyllis Lyon. "Lesbian Love & Sex." Ms Magazine (July 1972): 74-76.
New York Times various articles: 1968-1974

Steinem, Gloria. "What It Would Be Like If Women Win" Time Magazine (August 31, 1970)

Time Magazine cover story, "The Politics of Sex: Kate Millett of Women's Lib" (August 31, 1970).
"Women's Lib: A Second Look" Behavior section Time Magazine, (December 14, 1970)

Memoirs and Period Articles:


Abbott, Sidney and Barbara Love. "Sappho Was A Right On Woman: A Liberated View of Lesbianism." New York: Stein and Day, 1972.

Atkinson, Ti-Grace. "Amazon Odyssey". New York: Link Books 1974.

Brown, Rita Mae. "Plain Brown Rapper." Oakland, CA: Diana Press 1976.

Brown, Rita Mae. Rita Will: Memoir of a Literary Rabble-Rouser", New York: Bantam, 1997.

Grier, Barbara and Coletta Reid. "The Lavender Herring: Lesbian Essays from the Ladder." Baltimore: Diana Press, 1976.

Jay, Karla. "Tales of the Lavender Menace--A Memoir of Liberation." New York: Basic Books, 1999.

Morgan, Robin. "Sisterhood is Powerful: An Anthology of Writings from the Women's Liberation Movement." New York: Random House, 1970.


Secondary Sources:



Cohen, Marcia: "The Sisterhood: The True Story of the Women Who Changed the World." New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988.

Evans, Sara M. "Tidal Wave: How Women Changed America At Century's End" New York: the Free Press, 2003.

Hooks, bell. "Feminism is for Everybody-Passionate Politics." Cambridge: South End Press, 2000

Rosen, Ruth. "The World Split Open: How the Modern Women's Movement Changed America, 2000.


Is that good enough?

[hfojvt]

38. It's overkill

a couple of titles would suffice, such as Marcia Cohen or Bell Hooks. I did not mean to imply that you have not done alot of research on the subject. However, the admonition that someone "needs to do some reading" is kinda empty without suggesting a title. A person could read a dozen books on the subject with a dozen viewpoints which may or may not be accurate.

[libnnc]

42. Sorry, didn't mean to blow your mind.

I just get pissed with overgeneralizations like "lesbians don't care about women's rights." It is a grossly false statement that needs to be corrected. As a lesbian, I kinda take it personally.

[RazzleDazzle]

45. I'd take exception to that too. But it's NOT what I said, is it?

Or if you're still confused, please go reread my original post and my new ones.

[libnnc]

46. do you understand at all why I'm pissed?

gays and lesbians do not ignore women's issues here or anywhere. Take it out on someone else.

[RazzleDazzle]

47. Oh, please

gays and lesbians do not ignore women's issues here or anywhere.

If you're saying ALL lesbians at DU and ALL gay men at DU are on point on women's issues here at DU, and rise to defend against sexism, that's just objectively not true. Period.

In fact, I could name you at least one gay man who comes to mind who's an outright misogynist, and I'm pretty sure there are others. There are lesbians who don't bother to participate.

If you're saying ALL gay men and ALL lesbians in the wider population are interested in and supportive of women's issues -- that is, are feminists themselves -- that doesn't pass the common sense test and is objectively simply not true too.

So, no. I don't understand why you're pissed. But by all means DO enjoy it while you're there. If it does you good, then good for ya.

[libnnc]

48. how old are you? I'm just curious.

your comments seem pretty mean spirited and ignorant.

Edit to ask, what is your definiton of feminism? Does it not include civil/human rights for everybody? That's my definition.

[RazzleDazzle]

49. And yours don't pass the common sense test

And if you can't differentiate between arguments about "all" "some" "a few" and "none" -- then maybe there are some other kinds of books you ourht to read.

Let me add: as for the "meanspirited" and wanting to know my age, this phrase comes to mind: All looks jaundiced to the jaundiced eye. -- Alexander Pope

[libnnc]

50. Okay, you win, I hate women, happy now?

:crazy:

[jesus_of_suburbia]

56. Why the anger, RazzleDazzle?

I agree with you, libnnc. RazzleDazzle's comments seem mean spirited.

Sorry, I just call it like I see it.

Even if the comments were true, there was no reason to bring them into this thread.

They just seem hateful toward the OP's celebration of his anniversary.

Congratulations, OP!

I won't be responding to your replies, RazzleDazzle, so have fun ripping me apart.

[hfojvt]

53. I am not sure if that is mean spirited

since she did turn the question into one about her own anger.

Your post here makes alot of sense, but earlier you had said:

"I've often observed that few people of oppressed groups bother to realize that we're all in this together: that if we differentiate between our oppressions, if we fail to work towards equality for ALL of us (minorities, women, GLBT, differently abled, elderly, etc.), we will never, ever, ever prevail but instead actively assist those who benefit from our oppression.

Sadly, as I said, I see too few gay men (and women!), and too few minorities giving a damn about other groups. Would that they realized they retard their OWN progress in the process."

"few" and "too few" that is a long, long way from "not all" and her point, perhaps over-stated, was that alot have and alot still do.

[libnnc]

55. look, I'm speaking from my own experience

I don't separate my being a lesbian from my being a woman and a feminist. The women I have studied who were lesbians also argued that they were feminists. I don't like it when straight women try to brand the gay/lesbian community as being uncaring or insensitive to women's issues. I don't know of one lesbian in my circle of friends who isn't GREATLY concerned about a woman's right to choose, equal employment, custody rights, sexism, etc. This shouldn't be about semanitcs, "very few" versus "too few" or whatever. She's pissed because the OP spoke from HIS point of view which was that of a gay man, it didn't necessarly make him anti-feminist.

[hfojvt]

58. in my own experience, there is alot of fracturing

of course, I see that from the outside as a straight, christian, white male - that my concerns, as a member of the working class are sometimes not a concern at all, much less a primary concern.

You were the one talking about being "pi$$ed" whereas the other person noted one other thing that jumped out at me, that the OP talked about the "objectification of lesbians" as if that was not a problem for all women.

Not that the OP was being malicious or even ignorant by not including the larger feminist issue in his POV. After all, every thing cannot be covered in a single post, and talking about one problem does not exclude the existence of other problems. Just needed a little more explication or discussion.

Perhaps I make everything about semantics, but I think that neither of you are fundamentally wrong, just a little over-stated and you probably really mostly agree.

[ronnykmarshall]

70. I was a member of NOW in high school.

I think that's when my mom started to clue in that I was gay. I got mail addressed to "Ms Ronnie Marshall". I love having 'bi' name.

[RazzleDazzle]

44. Freidan and others were wrong. So what? That was then, this is now.

What made you think I was speaking historically? OR, for that matter, that I'm ignorant of feminist history? What makes you think historical failings have any relevance to today?

The groups I was involved with were heavily peopled by lesbians -- so much so I had to deal with my own residual homophobia before I even got involved. And I did. That alone was a powerful lesson: getting over the fear of being called a lesbian because I associated with lesbians. Getting to the point I could say (if asked): "That's none of your business." And mean it.

The biggest and most important lesson of all that was to experience and understand first hand just how much power patriarchy wields in keeping ALL women down via the weapon of homophobia, and what a powerful it is against both gay men and all women (esp. lesbian women). The fear of being called or thought lesbian could have kept me from being involved in groups which were helping all women and all gays and all minorities. That's exactly what the Patriarchy wants and intends.

Lesbians did care. We still care.

Of course lesbians care. I didn't say "all" or even imply it. Nor did I say "ever." I very carefully said I don't see enough ("too few" were my exact words), and I stand by that becauase it's my personal opinion. (I feel the same about straight women here at DU and in the larger population too, btw.) It's a subjective thing: you can't argue with my not being satisfied with how many lesbians participate here at DU.

See also my response to H2O Man.

[libnnc]

35. Here's a reading list for you

To debunk the myth that lesbians don't care about women's rights.

Enjoy!

~Primary Sources: Newspapers and Magazines~

Brownmiller, Susan. "Sisterhood is Powerful." New York Times Magazine, 15 March 1970.

Harris, Bertha. "Elaine Noble and Rita Mae Brown--A Dialogue." Christoper Street Magazine (July 1976): 23-25.

Martin, Del and Phyllis Lyon. "Lesbian Love & Sex." Ms Magazine (July 1972): 74-76.
New York Times various articles: 1968-1974

Steinem, Gloria. "What It Would Be Like If Women Win" Time Magazine (August 31, 1970)

Time Magazine cover story, "The Politics of Sex: Kate Millett of Women's Lib" (August 31, 1970).
"Women's Lib: A Second Look" Behavior section Time Magazine, (December 14, 1970)

~Memoirs and Period Articles:~

Abbott, Sidney and Barbara Love. "Sappho Was A Right On Woman: A Liberated View of Lesbianism." New York: Stein and Day, 1972.

Atkinson, Ti-Grace. "Amazon Odyssey". New York: Link Books 1974.

Brown, Rita Mae. "Plain Brown Rapper." Oakland, CA: Diana Press 1976.

Brown, Rita Mae. Rita Will: Memoir of a Literary Rabble-Rouser", New York: Bantam, 1997.

Grier, Barbara and Coletta Reid. "The Lavender Herring: Lesbian Essays from the Ladder." Baltimore: Diana Press, 1976.

Jay, Karla. "Tales of the Lavender Menace--A Memoir of Liberation." New York: Basic Books, 1999.

Morgan, Robin. "Sisterhood is Powerful: An Anthology of Writings from the Women's Liberation Movement." New York: Random House, 1970.


~Secondary Sources:~


Cohen, Marcia: "The Sisterhood: The True Story of the Women Who Changed the World." New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988.

Evans, Sara M. "Tidal Wave: How Women Changed America At Century's End" New York: the Free Press, 2003.

Hooks, bell. "Feminism is for Everybody-Passionate Politics." Cambridge: South End Press, 2000

Rosen, Ruth. "The World Split Open: How the Modern Women's Movement Changed America, 2000.

[Mutley]

62. I doubt thats the case.

greekspeak's post happens to be about the hardships gay men and women face, not the hardships that straight women face. That's a subject for another thread.

[Misunderestimator]

73. Too few gay men and women give a damn about other groups?

What on earth is your definition of too few? Less than 100%? Less than 90%? Less than half? In my experience almost all of the gay men and women I've known care very much about the oppression of all minorities. Even though we still do not have equality in our laws and benefits in this country... even though our small strides in the areas of domestic partnership laws are saddled with taxes that straight citizens do not have to pay. We still fight for reproductive rights (as one example) even though most of us never intend to exercise those rights.

On the contrary, I think that other minorities have cared less about gay rights than gay people have cared about other minorities' (and women's) rights. If they had, we would have equality by now. We don't.

Besides, this is a post celebrating coming out... how on earth do you justify shitting on it with your judgement?

[dsc]

75. thank you

I can't have posted what you did for obvious reasons but thank you for posting it.

[MadisonProgressive]

25. Fuck the Phobes! In the end they will be swept into the ash can of history

[TechBear_Seattle]

26. Wait until it has been half your life

I passed that milestone +mumble+ years ago. Sadly, the more things change, the more they seem to stay the same.

[father_of_hope]

27. happy anniversary!

for me, it's been 4 years as an official gay man.

Right-wingers and homophobes are on a collision course with history. They know it, hence the desperate laws.

It is only a matter of time until gay marriage is legalized in America, and the world, never fear.

[demgurl]

32. Congratulations on this anniversary.

I hope things keep going forward for you and the only steps you take back are the ones you do while dancing with your partner. I wish for you a life of happiness and love. Happy Valentine's Day.

[Yollam]

34. Happy Anniversary!

And who would have known ten years ago that today democracy itself would be on its last legs.

The progress you cite is all well and good, but I do think that in some circles, the scapegoating of gays (and leftists and intellectuals in general) is much worse than it was then, and I honestly don't find the possibility of people being rounded up in a few years to be all that farfetched.

In Germany, it was "First they came for the jews, but I was silent, because I wasn't Jewish". I'm afraid that here, it will be "First they came for the gays...".

Keep up the fight.

[BR_Parkway]

36. Happy Anniversary!

[Strathos]

37. Well, I've been out a bit longer

I "came out" at 20 and will be 40 this coming May. I've been with my partner now for 13 years. I wouldn't trade a thing for the life I've had, but I would try to change the way people view me and my kind. I believe even though we're all so similar, gays are a different sort of people, the majority of us tend to accept easily, to love easily, to have great senses of humour, to want love and give love more readily than most and finally, to not judge others on who they love.

Happy Valentines Day to all my gay brothers and sisters. Just think if we all truly united what a force we could be.

Congrats Greekspeak, on your 10 years in this awesome world.

[FreedomAngel82]

39. I'm glad for the most part

it's not horrible as it used to be. I think we as a country are lot more progressive than we think because a few homophobic people have megaphones. My mom even admitted she used to feel kinda iffy at first but now it doesn't bother her. :) So I was happy to hear that. Congrats and I'm glad you don't have to hide anymore. :hug:

[AndyA]

40. I respect you

For being brave enough to come out. That takes a lot of guts, and it's easier for some than others.

Your observations are right on target, and I agree with you. The good and the bad have just about kept up with each other over the last decade.

With a Christian President in office, you would think the teachings of The Bible, like love, acceptance of others, turning the other cheek, helping your fellow man, etc., would make things better for all, gay and straight alike. But that is not what is happening. Instead we have an administration spewing words of hate and discrimination.

Here's hoping 10 years down the road you'll be able to post about the real progress you've seen in the last decade!

[hfojvt]

51. am I reading into this?

I find this somewhat troublesome.

"Supportive communities like DU are models for what America should be--I have never heard a homophobic comment here from a bona fide member."

It reminded me of this, which I posted recently:

"The impermeability of this Bushite thought system, which I encountered last week on the radio, reminded me of Catch-22. “If the source of some idea or information isn’t one of us, then we can reject it. And if anyone presents ideas or information that challenge our dogmas, then that person cannot be one of us.” A fool-proof system for protecting the faith."

And we have our own "faith", which does not allow alternate ideas.
You will never hear a homophobic comment from a bona fide member, it seems, because anybody who makes a homophobic comment is, by definition, not a bona fide member.

Which is sorta okay, DU is a community of progressives, not a community of bigots. But I do not believe any human is completely free of all bigotry, and even if some people are, it does not mean they might not at times write things which can be construed as being bigoted. I have seen my own comments and those of others construed that way because other people "know" (that is, they think they know) what I mean.

I do not like the "questioning of bona fides" mentality, or am I thinking that I know what you mean.

[greekspeak]

61. By "bona fide" member," I was referring to freep invaders

I was not referring to any religious faith. I was referring to the freepers that come in for their 10 minutes of fame as "crushers of the liberal hordes." The chronicallytombstoned. I consider the remainder of our community to be bona fide.

[hfojvt]

72. most people would not agree with that

nor should they. Not every "freeper" gets weeded out before 100, or even 1000, posts. Nor was I talking about a religious faith - rather an imaginary, unspoken "DU creed" or "progressive creed". This would be something that most DUers agree on, and most freepers disagree with. However, since there is wide disagreement among DUers on each point, for example, on the issue of the death penalty. Not every disagreement with the creed is done by a "freeper" revealing their true colors.

I think there probably are varying degrees of homophobia among DUers. Isn't that almost inevitable in a largely homophobic society? After all, we were not born progressives. Nor were many of us raised to be progressives. It was/is a learning process, and not everything has been learned.

[VOX]

52. Happy anniversary, greekspeak!

Progress has been made, but, as you say, there is still so much to be done.

I love my gay brother and his partner, and anytime I overhear any homophobic remark, or read of hate crimes, or of intolerance directed at gays, that's about **my brother and his partner**!!! They (and thus, all gay folk) are my family. I love my family, and I will do whatever is in my power to effect positive changes!

Cheers -- :toast:

[lonestarnot]

54. Congratulations and what a load off! Congrats Greekspeak.

[enigmatic]

59. Fantastic Post

thanks for this:)

[Wind Dancer]

60. Congratulations to you, greekspeak!

I know how much of a struggle it has been for you and others - I appreciate your heartfelt post. There is much work to be done and I have alienated quite a few people in the fundie community for their homophobic beliefs. I will continue to do so until every human being is given equal rights in this country.

There is a letter that touched my heart more than you will know:

It was a ltte written in 2000:

As the mother of a gay son, I've seen firsthand how cruel and misguided people can be.

Many letters have been sent to the Valley News concerning the homosexual menace in Vermont. I am the mother of a gay son and I've taken enough from you good people.

I'm tired of your foolish rhetoric about the "homosexual agenda" and your allegations that accepting homosexuality is the same thing as advocating sex with children. You are cruel and ignorant. You have been robbing me of the joys of motherhood ever since my children were tiny.

My firstborn son started suffering at the hands of the moral little thugs from your moral, upright families from the time he was in the first grade. He was physically and verbally abused from first grade straight through high school because he was perceived to be gay.

the rest here:http://samgail.blogspot.com/2006/02/pro-family-hate-groups.html

[Mutley]

63. Congrats!

DU is here for you. :hug:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

65. Happy Anniversary!

And thank you for sharing your wisdom and experiences in this excellent post. :)

[mitchtv]

66. Happy anniversary.. Today makes 29 years for me&Partner

I am just old enough to remember when gay bars had the dancing behind a black curtain, and a DA's reelection meant raids. I was active in "the movement" in the 60's and have an appreciation of the costs of our gains. I never expected we would accomplish so much. I am still more active than I want to be, but someone has to get out there and the youngsters need to step foward and pick up the mantle- GOOD LUCK

[greekspeak]

81. Congratulations...my man and I will hit that same mark one day

What danger could a loving couple of 29 years do to the institution of marriage? That is wonderful! Happy Anniversary!

[ronnykmarshall]

67. and a big 10 year ... YOU GO GIRL!

I'm almost at my 25 year mark.

Have you got the catalog yet? Have you picked out your 10 year gift?

When I hit my 10 year in 1992 the pickin's were pretty slim so I opted for the 5 years supply of lube.

[Binka]

80. That Made Me Laugh So Hard I Had To Get You Another Heart Darling!

Love You Ms Ronnie Marshall :loveya:

[ronnykmarshall]

84. Oh my gawd!!

Thank you!!!

:loveya:

[greekspeak]

82. Congrats on nearing your mark!

That is a huge milestone! :bounce:

I hear the catalogue this year has a free trip to New York complete with a 10 minute all-you-can-grab shopping spree at Barney's!

[ronnykmarshall]

85. That is so cool.

You can tell that with the the recruits we've made over the years, the gifts keep getting better.

Toasters will soon be replaced entire new kitchens.

[MrBenchley]

68. Thank you for sharing

There is still a lot fo work for us all to do to ensure equality and opportunity.

[dsc]

69. Congrats

Comming out on Valentines Day, gee I wonder if you had a really good reason to come out lol. In any case, it is amazing the amount of change that has occured just since I graduated from college (I came out in college so that is a good marker for me). While I was in college the first few state wide gay rights laws passed, we are now up to 17. I thought we would colonize Mars before any state permitted same sex marriage. The horrible Bowers v Hardwick was handed down the summer before I went to college and now Lawerence has overturned it. In 2004, the worst Democratic candidate on our issues favored full civil rights, service in the military, and at least some form of domestic partnership. The best favored same sex marriage. Dukakis barely mentioned gays or lesbians.

Life is far from perfect on this front but looking back at the progress in the last 20 years fills me with both pride and awe. Pride in the little I had to do with it, and awe at the huge effort others have done. I am out except at work where I am not protected by law. I intend to be out at work in the next few years even if it takes moving to Carborro or Chappel Hill to accomplish that. Great job man and don't let the hijacker get you down.

[greekspeak]

83. I was a senior in college when I came out

I think the Net did it. I got to talk to other gay people in an environment that felt safe for me. Many milestones soon followed, including meeting my husband! As of my 3rd anniversary, I was co-president of my college's queer group. Been a great 10 years of being me!

[NMMNG]

71. Happy Anniversary greekspeak

:hug:

And great post! :thumbsup: While it will no doubt take many more years, we shall overcome.

[drmom]

74. Congratulations!

What always amazes me is how the freeper-types always say that it's a "life choice"...why would anyone CHOOSE to be part of a discriminated minority? Clearly, there is a very strong internal drive that leads one to live a life that is compatible with their own 'brain-programming' over a more socially acceptable life that causes constant turmoil.

[roguevalley]

77. Well said: "We are here and we are queer, and we are NOT going anywhere!"

When you get tired, come and sit over here with me.

[RagingInMiami]

78. As a straight man

I respect you for being yourself instead of living a lie.

[Hekate]

79. Happy anniversary! MY deity loves ALL her children!

:toast:
I too have seen the positive changes, and here are some for me, a straight woman:

I remember the homophobic culture in my high school, from which I graduated in 1965. I didn't have the wherewithal to reason my way through all it, though once I did scold some of my classmates out of a planned act of mockery because it was clearly so cruel. My boyfriend had it bad, but again, it took me decades to be able to actually name what ailed him and to clean the echoes out of my own mind. My mother subscribed to prevailing psychological theories that gayness was a sickness -- but at least she didn't believe or say that it was a crime or a sin that would send one to Hell.

Thanks to courageous gays and lesbians coming out of the closet and telling their stories to the rest of us in books and articles, by the time I was raising my own children I had a much better perspective on the range of human sexuality and relatedness. It helps to be living on the West Coast, to be sure.

Colleagues at work or in professional associations felt okay with coming out to me, and again, they enlarged my vision.

My husband and I raised our children in the Unitarian church, which supported and expanded on our worldview, and helped provide insulation against the narrowminded they were sure to meet.

When a few of my kids' childhood friends came out at an early age, my son and daughter were completely supportive and are still close with them today. I am so grateful that my straight kids never had to be immersed in a culture of unexamined homophobic assumptions that could have warped their worldview for life.

These are positive changes that have affected me directly.

There's a nasty backlash. And there's places in the country that have never gotten the message at all yet. Troglodytes and Neanderthals are still among us.

Yet I tell the story of my own journey not because it is remarkable, but because it is ordinary. The larger culture has shifted. Because so many have come out of the closet, the majority of Americans now recognize that gays and lesbians are not exotic creatures but are sister, cousin, co-worker, uncle, neighbor...

So, Happy Anniversary, Greekspeak. I look forward to the day when your story will, in a sense, be ordinary too. :hug:

Hekate