Some common sense on the Cheney shooting.

[Silverhair]

Cheney bears full responsibility. A prime rule of gun safety is that you must ALWAYS be sure of what you are shooting at and what is behind your target when you fire. THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS. Although Whittington may have been out of position, it does NOT excuse Cheney at all.

By now smart politics says that Cheney should have made a statement accepting full responsibility. That he hasn't is now starting to hurt him among conservatives. I suspect that his lawyers are advising him not to make such a statement because if Whittington dies and Cheney is sued, the statement could be used against him in court.

There is absolutely NO reason to suspect that this was anything but a stupid accident. The tinfoil hat crowd is already busy trying to weave a conspiracy tale of deliberate attempted murder by Cheney.

We have only basic information now. There is no need for senseless speculation. More facts will come out in the next few days. A little bit of patience never hurt anybody.

Many of those who do specualte should learn a bit more about shotguns and about quail, and even about the type of dogs used in quail hunting and what they do.

[Jane Austin]

1. A question.

Do you know why they didn't send a dog to pick up Whittington's downed bird?

Thanks.

[Avalux]

4. They wanted to place some of the blame on Whittington.

That way, it would seem Cheney accidentally shot someone who had wandered off, not someone who had been right there all along.

[Jane Austin]

14. My question was serious.

I wasn't looking for a BS answer.

[Avalux]

18. That wasn't a BS answer.

Let me try again. Normally, on hunting ranches such as this one, there will be dogs - or even men who drive out and retrieve the birds (especially large volumes). That's why I wrote my previous post - it's extremely unlikely Whittington would have gone after his own bird.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Jane Austin]

25. Thanks. I agree that Whittington was unlikely to pick up his own bird.

n/t

[Silverhair]

6. Pointers are not retrievers. You are thinking of duck hunting.

In quail hunting the dogs are called "pointers", and they are trained to smell a covey and then to point at them. Then the hunters get into position, the covey is flushed. That means you scare them and they burst into the air, each bird flying fast and furious, some high, some flying low. It is quite difficult to shoot a quail in the air. The dog does not retrieve the downed quail.

[Jane Austin]

16. My father hunted over his Weimaraner (a pointing breed) and she

picked up everything.

My son's GSP also retrieved anything that fell her way.

I guess I didn't know they weren't supposed to!

[Silverhair]

21. Of course a dog can be trained to do it, just that they usually aren't..

The quail usually fall a short distance from the hunter and are on land, so there is no real need for a retriever. Ducks that fall into cold water are a different matter.

[Jane Austin]

26. That makes sense.

Thanks.

[Avalux]

27. My father hunts with a springer/brittany spaniel mix

He will point, flush and retrieve the birds for my dad.

[plcdude]

28. I have hunted quail

and every dog I have ever hunted with has retrieved the birds.

[TX-RAT]

15. They may have.

Been a quail hunter for more than 40 yrs. I've hunted over Pointers, Short-hairs, Brittany's,and still hunt over Brittany's to this day. The dogs don't always find the birds. Quail that have only been wounded have a habit of running as soon as they hit the ground, especially Blue Quail.

[Jane Austin]

22. Thank you for your informative answer.

I didn't know that about quail running away!

Our Goldens bring 'em all back, but I think they've only been asked to do that with duck and pheasant. One of ours hunted quail in Indiana, but I didn't see it, so I don't think I've ever seen them retrieve quail.

Thanks again for your answer.

[Avalux]

30. To my knowledge though -

ranches such as this one use men in vehicles to retrieve the birds. That's what I've been told anyway. I have a hard time believing that man was retrieving his own birds.

Brittany's are great dogs, BTW.

[TX-RAT]

32. ranches such as this one use men in vehicles to retrieve the birds

Wish i had a truck that would fetch, LOL

Not familiar with the Armstrong Ranch, but i have hunted the King Ranch, many times. That country is very thick, not to sure you can get your truck to far of the road.

(Brittany's are great dogs, BTW.)
They sure are, my dad and i both switched to Britts, many years ago. My place has a great crop of quail, with about 75% being Blues. Britts work up close, less chance of spooking the birds, before you can get there.

[Avalux]

34. lol -

I meant to say the men retrieve on foot....they drive trucks out to the site though. This area isn't as dense as what you're describing.

My dad's Brittany/Springer mix was a gamble. When he brought Fritz home, people said he'd be confused with the different genes and wouldn't amount to much of a hunting dog. He's great though; my dad's best friend. Even saved him from a bear once. ;)

[Avalux]

2. I have no doubt it was an accident, which is important.

If Cheney can be careless enough to shoot his hunting partner, how on earth can we expect someone so incompetent to be involved in the defense of our country? How could he ever lead this country if something happened to Bush?

Others may argue the importance of what happened, but I believe it was a HUGE blow to Cheney's credibility. And it was an accident, nothing else. An act of irresposibility while handling a deadly weapon.

[wake.up.america]

3. delete

[NorthernSpy]

5. Silverhair, why would someone use 5mm shot on quail?

I've been looking for an answer to this ever since the poster Formercia pointed out this paragraph in one of the news articles:

Dr. David Blanchard, the hospital's emergency room chief, said Whittington suffered an "asymptomatic heart attack," meaning Whittington did not display symptoms such as chest pains or breathing difficulty. He said a roughly 5 mm piece of shot became lodged in or alongside Whittington's heart muscle, causing the organ's upper two chambers to beat irregularly.

5mm (about 1/5", or size BBB) is several sizes too large to use on quail. I mean, there'd be nothing left...

So why, in your opinion, would Cheney have chosen this particular shot?

[Silverhair]

8. Media screw-up.

Cheney used # 7 1/2 bird shot, and those are tiny. About 1/2 mm or .5mm, and somebody didn't see the decimal, or didn't hear the doctor say it.

[TX-RAT]

13. correct

As far as i know the largest shot available in factory loads for a 28ga, is #6.

[NorthernSpy]

36. that would make sense, except for one thing:

Cheney used # 7 1/2 bird shot, and those are tiny. About 1/2 mm or .5mm, and somebody didn't see the decimal, or didn't hear the doctor say it.

According to this article, size 71/2 shot is approximately 1/10 of an inch in diameter. That is equivalent to nearly 2.5mm, not .5mm. So the decimal place screw-up explanation doesn't fit.

Even #9 birdshot has a diameter over 4 times larger than .5mm -- half a millimeter is about the size of a grain of cream of wheat cereal.

[Silverhair]

37. OK. Different kind of media screw up.

Looks like I was wrong on exactly how the media got it wrong about 5mm.

[warrens]

7. That pretty much sums it up

You don't shoot unless you know what the hell you're shooting at. The lawyer was off to the side, which means Cheney swung his gun 90 degrees and fired. Unless Texas quail are six feet tall and wear orange vests, he had no idea what he was shooting at.

[Silverhair]

10. Right. It doesn't matter if Whittington had donned camouflage

and sneaked in front of Cheney, when you shoot, you have to know what is happening. THERE ARE NO EXCUSES.

[meisje]

9. But I just bought 3 rolls of foil!!

[JHB]

11. Don't worry. Something will come up....soon.

Something always does. :tinfoilhat:

[Silverhair]

12. LOL. Love the humor around here.

And JHB's response is both funny, and so right that one wants to cry.

[smomfr]

17. I´ve been wondering.........

what the meaning of tin foil hats means. The other night I saw a movie ¨Signs¨ with Mel Gibson. In the movie his children and brother put on tin foil hats so aliens can´t read thier minds. Is that the deal with the hats?

[Silverhair]

19. Yes. NT

[Junkdrawer]

20. Booze?

Local cops turned away by the Secret Service until the next day.

Statement by the ranch owner that beer may have been present at the party scrubbed by MSNBC from their original story.

Doesn't look good.

[Silverhair]

23. Speculation. Can't build a case on speculation.

More info will come out in the next few days.

[Junkdrawer]

29. Senators shouldn't speculate on the floor of the Senate. Blogs were...

MADE for speculation - especially in the abundance of suspicious behavior.

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Nevertheless, the fact remains that even if it was a stupid

accident, Cheney refused to be interviewed by police for nearly a day after the incident.

That is interfering with a police investigation, obstruction of justice, coverup, whatever.

I am less concerned with the fact that he shot someone than the fact that he decided to cover it up rather than own up to it. It is such an incredibly irresponsible act that I can only ask WHY he would so such a thing.

As for "more fact will come out", it is obvious that if he had his way NO facts would have come out.

Remember when the republicans were trying to force the secret service to testify against Clinton? Is anybody calling for Cheney's SS to testify as to what happened?

[Jane Austin]

31. Cheney's utter contempt for the American people

is what looms over this whole situation and explains pretty much the way Cheney does everything.

One thing that has come to light during this thing is the fact that the press is not allowed to know Cheney's schedule, both out of town and while he is in Washington.

I am just stunned at the contempt for all of us this demonstrates. Who the hell is he that we can't even know what state he's in (unless he shoots somebody) much less who he might be with?

I don't care about his routine social life, but only by the press knowing about that could they recognize the contacts and meetings with people we damned sure should know about.

He can want to be as secretive as he wants to be, but if you're going to offer yourself to the country as the Vice-president, then you need to drop the privacy crap.

It's one or the other: Complete privacy or private life. Take your pick.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. Okay, well what would be an acceptable reason for Cheney

to delay reporting the shooting? It's either two reasons. 1) cheating on Lynne or 2) they were drunk as skunks.

[Silverhair]

35. The key word is "acceptable".

Granted, this is a guess on my part, but I think that Cheney though that he didn't have to report it.

He likely thought: "Damn! Accident. Whittington's got some bird shot under his skin but is otherwise OK. The liberals will go nuts over this. Hell, just get Harry patched up and don't say anything."

Of course, that is NOT acceptable, but that is a different matter.

[against all enemies]

38. Collateral Damage, Quail hunting style.

[nomatrix]

39. Where do you suspect any information,

that you will accept as fact, will come from?