YOU KNOW WHITTINGTON IS IN BAD SHAPE...

[berni_mccoy]

When the doctors WON'T give a precise count of the # of shotgun pellets embedded in his body. They are saying between 5 and 200. That's ridiculous. I had a dog that once attacked a porcupine (severely) and it took 4 vets over 4 hours to pull FOUR HUNDRED QUILLS from him (and there were still a few stragglers). But the point is, THEY COUNTED EACH AND EVERY ONE of them. With the medical imaging technology we have today (I know because I've worked in that field), they can get a PRECISE COUNT AND LOCATION of where these pellets are.

You also know he's in bad shape because otherwise the Whitehouse WOULD HAVE RELEASED at a minimum AUDIO from Whittington making a statement. It's likely that he can NOT SPEAK. NO PHOTOS, NO VIDEOS, NADA in one of the BIGGEST STORIES OF THIS PRESIDENCY. The doctors WON'T GIVE STRAIGHT ANSWERS and the V.P. himself refuses to talk or take questions. We all know now that 30 yards is likely not the distance of the shot; it was more likely somewhere between 5 and 15 yards. The number of pellets, the depth of penetration and the size of the impact region all indicate this. What that means is this guy's FACE, NECK AND CHEST HAVE BEEN TURNED TO HAMBURGER. I won't post them or even name them here because they are absolutely TOO GRAPHIC, but there are plenty of sites out there that show pictures of gun-shot victims and specifically SHOTGUN victims. Any net savvy people here will be able to find these sites and see for themselves if they have the stomach for it. I have, and I will tell you this. THERE IS NOT MUCH LEFT of the tissue where the spread pattern hits these people... skin, muscle, bone and sinew are ALL DISINTEGRATED by a wall of HIGH-SPEED METAL PELLETS.

I pray Mr. Whittington recovers, but the fact is, he will never be normal again. The outlook can't be good given that Mr. Whittington is 78 years old. CHENEY HAS MAIMED, AND LIKELY KILLED, THIS PERSON THROUGH RECKLESS ACTION.

[seemslikeadream]

1. has any family members made any statements yet?

[GreenPartyVoter]

54. Another thread said there was a comment from the daughter. Let me

go look for it.

Dagum it, I can't find it. Anyway the thing that stuck out about it was the poster said it seemed like it was a bit cool towards Cheney.

[converted_democrat]

64. Here it is..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x412570

on edit- Here is the direct link-
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1616143&page=1

[GreenPartyVoter]

80. Thanks! Thought I had gone nuts and just hallucinated the whole thread

[ewagner]

2. Let's see....

age 78

severe trauma

possible cardio-vascular damage.

right off hand I'd say this is pretty serious......

[CrazyOrangeCat]

6. yeah, he's got to be a total mess n/t

[undergroundpanther]

3. The way everyone is backing away

from this story if they have been involved tells alot,I think

[slor]

4. That, and him not being on TV to tell us how...

much of his fault this was.

[mwb970]

38. You're right - Whitty owes America an apology - now! (n/t)

[zanne]

5. The lack of photos makes me wonder, too.

If the White House wanted to reassure us that the guy is doing OK, they'd have pictures of him splashed all over the media. The reality must be really ugly.

[FreedomAngel82]

65. And why none of them before it happened having a good time?

[berni_mccoy]

68. Cause they all had beer bottles/mugs in their hands?

[genie_weenie]

7. I hope he makes it.

[doodadem]

8. Blinded?

If the guy was shot in the face at close range, I'm thinking at least some of the pellets had to hit his eyes..........

Now, THERE's a PR nightmare!

[RufusEarl]

9. Doctor

I was watching the local news last night, they had the hospital rep talking to the news org. Then some short bald doctor started answering questions, and became very rude. Didn't get his name but thought it strange, that a doctor would be rude to reporters even if the questions stupid.

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. I read that White House doctors were taking care of him --

wouldn't that cut the local doctors out of the loop? Control information?

[RufusEarl]

49. Could have been, i didn't get his name or organization.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

10. I agree, the WH spin doctors are hard at work. "Mild heart attack"

He's gonna be good as new...but no pictures, no xray film, no nothing. I wonder if he lost an eye,
would be lucky if he did'nt.

[jhain]

44. "mild " heart attack- yeah right.

and before the mild heary attack I kept hearing that he was 'Very' stable. Uhhh, don't think that is a technical medical term, is it?
Very' stable. Sure...'

spin spin spin spin spin

[FreedomAngel82]

66. Or something I'm wondering

what if he dies and nobody finds out about it except close family/friends and they're told to keep quiet about it?

[janx]

Berni, I was just about to post about this.

There's no way that the muzzle of that firearm was 30 yards away from poor Harry. No way. I just realized it a few minutes ago.

[Lasher]

45. Me too, janx

A test firing with a similar gun, using a similar load, can establish the maximum distance between a shooter and his target. This is done by varying the range until the number of shot in a silhouette target equals the number of projectiles in the victim. This method can only establish the maximum range, however, because Cheney might not have caught Whittington in the center of his pattern. Further, we are being denied even a reasonable estimate of the number of shot that hit Whittington.

More telling is the depth of penetration. The bird shot did not decide to take a stroll from just under Whittington's skin, into his heart tissue, as earlier reports would have us believe. At least one of the bird shot penetrated enough to actually impact his heart. Logic therefore strongly suggests that the range was closer than 30 yards. It was not as close as 5 feet, because you could read the New York Times through the hole that would have left.

I am no forensic expert, so that is as close as I can narrow down the range. But I can assure you that what we are seeing is a coverup.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

11. I agree completely with your analysis.

I think of my dad's thinning skin (he's only 73) and, yeah, Whittington is a total mess. He's gotta be.

(BTW, 400 quills! Holy moley! That was one pissed-off porcupine! {I know an old man who refers to them as "quill-pigs!})

[berni_mccoy]

18. Actually it was one DUMB STUBBORN DOG

He actually killed the poor critter, which the vets were completely amazed by. Our dog couldn't even close his mouth because the quills propped it open. The porcupine has only one or two natural predators. Most wild predators are smart enough to leave them alone. Not our dog. It was a very traumatic incident.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

That is truly amazing . . . n/t

[rfkrfk]

12. I don't believe the '30 yard' distance

the pattern looks too small

[mwb970]

40. And the penetration too deep. (n/t)

[0007]

13. Sounds like its a touch and go situation. I guess if Cheney

were to come out and say he's sorry and the guy croaked in the middle of a press conference, well...what can ya say?

I don't think the bookie's have a line on this eventuality. Not unless they have inside knowledge.

[wtmusic]

14. disagree

30 yards is quite possible. If Whittington was in the middle of the shot pattern it would put him in ICU.

At five yards Whittington would have been killed instantly. At 15 it would have to be a graze.

[berni_mccoy]

21. 30 yards is pretty far for a 28g... I'm wondering about the penetration

To get close to the heart, the energy required indicates a closer hit than 30 yards. Docs DID say that it was NOT a case of a pellet TRAVELLING to the heart via bloodstream. That means the pellet would have to enter a vein and travel THROUGH the lungs... just not a real possibility. It also means he wasn't shot from the side, but from the front (otherwise arm/shoulders would have prevented penetration to the heart). And from the drawings of the impact site, it looks like a grazing blow... so maybe it was 15 yards, off-center.

[wtmusic]

24. good points all

hard to speculate. Much harder without an honest statement from the WH.

[Blue Belle]

71. When have we ever got an honest Statement from the White House??

I'd be interested to see the blood toxicology report. How convenient that Cheney had 22 hours to sober up before he'd talk to the police. I wish I had the power to tell the Sherrif to simply, "Go Away... nothing to see here until tomorrow morning." :eyes:

[wtmusic]

72. Amen to that nt

[janx]

33. "so maybe it was 15 yards, off-center"

Yep.

The crude drawings on the accident report make it look as if the left part of the spread hit Harry.

[smoogatz]

42. Maybe. Maybe not.

If he was at the edge of the pattern at twenty yards, you'd have plenty of velocity for the shot to penetrate his clothes and flesh (one pellet ended up in his liver, evidently, and two near his larynx, in addition to the one in his heart). A 28 gauge firing 7.5 shells has a pretty tight spread pattern--but if Whittington was hit by the outer edge even at relatively close range, it might not have killed him. I've actually been hit by a few stray pellets from a 12 gauge shotgun at about 50 yards--stung like a mother, but didn't penetrate my jeans (on edit: birdshot).

That said, I've been struck by the imprecision of the doctor's statements, too--5 to 250-300 pellets? WTF is that? Like they don't know? Apparently there are 300-350 pellets in every 7.5 shell (perhaps less for a 28 gauge). If he got hit by 300 pellets, and all 300 are embedded in his body, I'd say he took the full shot-load at pretty close range.

Additional edit: worth noting that a 28 gauge has about half the muzzle velocity of a 12 gauge (about 1200 fps vs 2800). Also, birdshot loses its forward energy much more quickly than buckshot, being much smaller and lighter. So at 30 yards, Whittington would've had to have been dead center in the shot pattern for it to penetrate his shirt and vest, I'd think. Meaning Cheney looked him straight in the face before he pulled the trigger. My gut feeling is that it didn't happen at all the way they're saying it did. The whole story stinks.

[berni_mccoy]

51. Excellent analysis!

[smoogatz]

59. Thanks. I've been trying to figure out what's wrong with the "official"

version of this thing. The whole deal is funky from the get-go--there's been an obvious and extremely clumsy coverup. And this time, unlike all the other actually important Bushco fuckups, the press seems to be fully engaged. They get it, kind of. It's the little stuff that gets politicians, I've decided. Massive institutional incompetence, collossal failures of leadership, brazen corruption and cronyism--none of that "matters" in this country. But get a blowjob from an intern or shoot a lwayer, and THAT's a story. Go figure.

[txindy]

58. Speaking of his shirt and vest being penetrated by pellets...

It was bitterly cold on Saturday with gusting winds (up to 30mph) straight out of the north. Anyone outside was wearing at least a heavy jacket. An elderly hunter was probably bundled up very well. These pellets penetrated through a LOT of heavy clothing to reach his skin.

[smoogatz]

61. That's likely, I suppose--

or he might've been wearing silk long-johns and a down vest--which would keep you warm but wouldn't do much to stop a shotgun blast at short range. All speculation at this point. But I'd certainly like to know what he was wearing, exactly, and how many pellets are actually embedded in his body. I mean, you're talking penetration of clothing and at least an inch or two of flesh. Thirty yards? I don't think so.

[txindy]

67. At 30 yards wouldn't the spray hit up and down his body on the one side?

Why just the face, neck, shoulder, and chest on one side? It's.... odd. It reminds of a thread I'd just been reading concerning "The Magic BB Theory" http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x191050

[smoogatz]

74. Apparently not.

Everything I've read indicates that a 28-gauge firing #7.5 bird shells has a pretty tight spread at effective (penetrating) range--the outer edge of which is 30 yards or less. A 28-gauge also delivers its shot in a tighter ball length-wise in relation to the line between shooter and target--meaning more shot arrives at once, typically, than with a larger bore gun.

[wtmusic]

70. The doctor's statement about the number of pellets

sounds like a misquote, or Whittington should get another doctor.

Seems to me if a 78-year-old man was close enough to catch 300 pellets--he would be dead.

[smoogatz]

76. You'd think. But if all but a few of them only penetrated the skin--

as appears to be the case, then maybe not. It's all very confusing. If he was indeed at thirty yards, what I've been able to find out about the 28-gauge indicates that he'd not have been seriously wounded--unless, and this is key--unless he caught the entire payload square on. Even then, at thirty yards, it's unlikely that a large number of pellets would've penetrated his clothes AND his skin. What seems likely is that he was more like 15-20 yards away.

[seabeyond]

15. so he is going to die of heart attack? now this is grossing me out

pissing me off. i trust you on the graphic of sites. no desire to see

really makes me wonder what happened. how do you not see the person in orange so close

[Wind Dancer]

16. There's so much more to this story.

Keith was discussing this at length last night and one of his guests was questioning why Mr. Whittington was sent to a small hospital much further away than Corpus Cristi, the nearest and largest hospital in the immediate area.

Our media is complicit in failing to tell the truth, they are covering up a potential crime and we are incapable of doing anything about it. It's shameful.

[benburch]

17. though the holes were very small...

...they had to count them all.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

23. Now they know . . .

. . . how many Dicks it takes to fill the Albert Hall . . .

[hlthe2b]

19. Could they map, count, and precisely determine every pellet?

probably yes, given todays MRI technology. Very tedious, but theoretically, I am sure it could be done. Is it medically relevent and necessary to do so? No. Not for the majority of pellets that lie in the subcutaneous tissues, or even within most solid organ tissues--the heart and great vessels being the obvious exceptions because of the chance of migration leading to infarct (heart attack) or stroke (if they travel to the brain), which is a rare possibility. It really IS rare that what has happened occurs. And, yes, whether in a dog, or other animal-- or in a human-- these pellets usually are left to remain in the tissue and only secondary infection considered to be a concern--controllable through antibiotic therapy.

That really is the truth. Ask any ER doc or nurse, radiologist, or veterinarian.


With respect to this case, yes, the migration of one or more pellets through the neck wounds into the major vessels and to the heart OR directly from penetraion of heart musculature, is very serious. He may do fine, as the body has a way of walling off these pellets through the inflammatory response over time and thus good long term prognosis. On the other hand, if he has one or more pellets migrating in the vessels or within the heart chambers, this is extremely serious and potentially deadly.

[wtmusic]

22. MRI not necessary

they stand out like a sore thumb on an ordinary x-ray.

[hlthe2b]

25. Of course you can see them on an ordinary X-ray, but not precisely

enough to map the exact location and to count. These are 2.4 milimeters in diameter and when they say several hundred estimated, that is very likely. You would need a 3-dimensional rendering, which is what one gets with MRI scanning.

[berni_mccoy]

27. Actually, CAT scans are 3-D X-Ray. I used to work on the software for one

You could build a precise location for each one, and yes, they do stick out like a sore thumb.

[hlthe2b]

31. Yes. CAT scans, MRIs or other 3-D imaging techniques

would work...

[wtmusic]

32. well

I've seen buckshot hits on x-ray. My mom was a radiologist. They're very easy to count, and typically they are counted. With a frontal and side view you can get a precise location on every one.

[hlthe2b]

34. Buck shot is far larger than bird shot...

Even so, pellets that land close together or are within or adjacent to bone can be hard to sufficiently differentiate to count precisely. That's why you would need a 3-D technique if you had several hundred pellets. Counting a half a dozen that are diffusely spread out is of course quite easy on a standard x-ray. That is "spray" not a direct hit and the kind of wound that would likely remain largely under the skin anyway. That does not appear to be the case here at all.

As for getting a "precise" location on a standard x-ray that simply is not true, since you only see one plane. Now you can do several views (anterior-posterior, lateral, diagonals) to try to get a better feel for where the pellet is (assuming it were necessary to surgicically remove), but it is still a fairly blind hunt unless you can 3-D image using one of several techniques.

[wtmusic]

63. Whittington would be dead were it a direct hit

Buckshot, birdshot, whatever--the pellets are not together in a wound of this type. If the shots hit him in any kind of tight, overlapping pattern they would not only go through him but would kill him instantly.

They're all typically counted and located to assess the danger to the patient. Counting 200 is not significantly more difficult than counting half a dozen because they're easy to see, in most cases even in front of bone. And you're just plain wrong about it being a "blind hunt"-- a radiologist can get a very precise, 3-D location using different views.

Do you have any medical experience with this type of thing?

[hlthe2b]

87. As a matter of fact I do...

I am a surgeon. So I've gotten to perform the goose hunts that you are so confident can be relieved from multiple views on a one dimensional radiograph...:eyes:

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

52. Any idea what an MRI would do to the poor guy

that's filled with small metal balls? I guess that would be one way to remove them all quickly.

[FearofFutility]

75. Yep n/t

[AGKISTRODON]

85. Magnets don't attract lead n/t

[FearofFutility]

73. MRI not recommended in this situation.

Because the strong magnetic field used for MRI will pull on any ferromagnetic metal object implanted in the body, MRI staff will ask whether you have a prosthetic hip, heart pacemaker (or artificial heart valve), implanted port, infusion catheter (brand names Port-o-cath, Infusaport, Lifeport), intrauterine device (IUD), or any metal plates, pins, screws or surgical staples in your body. In most cases surgical staples, plates, pins and screws pose no risk during MRI if they have been in place for more than four to six weeks. Tattoos and permanent eyeliner may also create a problem. You will be asked if you have ever had a bullet or shrapnel in your body or ever worked with metal. If there is any question of metal fragments, you may be asked to have an x-ray that will detect any such metal objects. Tooth fillings usually are not affected by the magnetic field but they may distort images of the facial area or brain, so the radiologist should be aware of them. The same is true of braces, which may make it hard to "tune" the MRI unit to your body. You will be asked to remove anything that might degrade MRI images of the head, including hairpins, jewelry, eyeglasses, hearing aids and any removable dental work.

http://www.radiologyinfo.org/content/mr_of_the_body.htm

[hlthe2b]

88. Correct... MRI is contraindicated in emergency settings. The

question was about resolution and MRI gives the best resolution necessary if one were to map with absolute accuracy the location of hundreds of 2.4 mm bird shot pellets. Someone had indicated that it would be routine to precisely map and count each of every pellets. The discussion was merely to point out how very difficult that would be when it comes to small bird shot, rather than the bb-sized buckshot. Some had maintained that it was routine to document every individual pellet (which I would argue is only in general terms, when it comes to the smallest of bird shot innocuously embedded in skin and subcutaneous tissues). Nonetheless, the discussion was about what it would take, if indeed, that was the goal.

But, as you correctly state, MRI would NOT be used here, because of the magnetic effect-- or anywhere that a ballistic injury is likely. In reality, 3-D computer tomography (CT scans) and ultrasound would be the diagnostic options of choice to supplement routine radiographs, diagnostic peritoneal lavage, etc. in order to identify any shot that potentially might have penetrated deeply into the chest or abdomenal cavity, the heart and great vessels, and which might require surgical removal, other close monitoring, or other diagnostic work-ups (angiocath, echocardiography, etc).

[slestak]

28. Yes, but

... there is a large gulf between 5 and 200. I see your point, that a precise count is still difficult to obtain, but surely they could narrow down that estimate.

[berni_mccoy]

30. YES, 3-D X-Ray is a CAT Scan.

[FlaGranny]

81. A shotgun blast leaves so many pellets

that to surgically remove them all would cause more damage than the original blast. That's why they only remove them if they are in a dangerous location. In my experience, pellets ARE counted because the number of pellets and their location are both pieces of information relevant to the severity of injury and prognosis of the patient.

[AGKISTRODON]

20. Whoa!

Why don't you take care not to make us look foolish if or when your speculation turns out to be incorrect?
I have been shooting shotguns for over 50 years, and I damned sure can't "know" all the things you claim to "know".

[berni_mccoy]

29. Mathematics, physics and medical technology background

Plus, I've shot guns since I was a teenager.

But we have nothing to do but INFER and SPECULATE since the WH isn't being honest, now do we?

[janx]

35. "make us look foolish" ?

Speak for yourself, please. ;-)

[Laurab]

56. Ditto.....I'm seeing so many of these

"make us look foolish" on this one - more, I think than I've seen on anything in all my time here. It's kind of.....interesting.

Something tells me DU'ers are on the right track here. They doth protest too much.

[janx]

84. Yep.

That was my reaction too...

[Misunderestimator]

43. Us?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

57. Good lordy...

if I had a nickle over the past 5 years for everytime some poster told a DUer to "stop making us look foolish" I'd be retired to Hawaii by now. (And if Skinner had a nickle for everytime I've made this post...)

If you are going to stick around for long you'd better get used to "looking foolish" -- it is a daily occurance here.

Most often, we "look foolish" only until what has made us "look foolish" turns up being completely right six months later.

"The PNAC is trying to run the county" looked foolish at one time....

"LIHOP/MIHOP" looked foolish at one time...

"Saddam had no ties to Osama Bin Laden" looked foolish at one time...

"Iraq has no WMD" looked foolish at one time...


I could go on and one.

Stick around. You'll learn a lot -- like to never be afraid to "look foolish".

[txindy]

60. In the medical field, are you?

And you don't speak for me, so there is no "us."

[Raffi Ella]

26. ...

I can't get over the fact that the W.H. said it was his own fault for being in the way.

If what you say is true my heart goes out to him and his family.

[daleo]

36. Maybe they hope he'll die of a heart attack

They could claim his ticker was in horrible shape anyway. That way, nobody will ever see a body, and what Cheney really did to him.

[smoogatz]

50. The doctors have already said his heart and coronary arteries are in great

shape. Apparently they did an EP catheter on him after his "mild" heart attack (how's that for an oxymoron?). No, if he dies Cheney's going to be thoroughly screwed--you'll have an autopsy and a grand jury, and he'll likely have to plead to negligent homicide.

[daleo]

78. I am glad to hear that

That's one lie that they can't use to get out of this, then.

[doodadem]

83. Just heard on NPR this morning

Or maybe it was KPFA? That Whittington did indeed have a "mild" heart attack yesterday while still in the hospital. How coincidental is that?

Here's a link I just got in from Truthout:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021506N.shtml

"Corpus Christi - The 78-year-old lawyer wounded by Vice President Dick Cheney in a hunting accident suffered a mild heart attack Tuesday after a shotgun pellet in his chest traveled to his heart, hospital officials said.

Harry Whittington was immediately moved back to the intensive care unit and will be watched for a week to make sure more of the metal pellets do not reach other vital organs. He was reported in stable condition."

[usregimechange]

37. X-rays show these things do they not?

[BrotherBuzz]

39. The doctor's hands are tied and he really doesn't know..

Diebold did the count

[DS1]

41. I starting to think it'll be better for Cheney if the guy dies. So they

won't have to show any footage of a mangled 'friend'

[PATRICK]

48. the quickest

cremation in US history and photos harder to get than the ones from Abu Graib and a hospital sealed tighter than Guantanamo.

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

47. I thought it was strange that Cheney said he called him

I thought that ICU patients didn't have phones.

[Raster]

53. I have approximately 45-ish pellets in my body. If they wanted to get

an absolute accurate count, just look at all the imaging, xray or otherwise. They show up quite distinctly.

[gasperc]

55. sure is becoming a news vacum

with all bets off if he dies or is allowed to die, although even if they do choose to keep him on life support indefinately to avoid a criminal negligence investigation or even possible prosecution. Weeks going by that Wittington is still on life support won't play well.

yet another major Cheney mis-calculation, I suppose Wittington those Cheney was using rose petals in his shotgun shells

[FreedomAngel82]

62. Very true

:( It's really sad.

[WinkyDink]

69. Right now on CNN docs keep saying "BB's".

[AGKISTRODON]

86. "BBs" means something specific

"BBs" are specifically .177" in diameter. I am waiting for the CNN docs to use the term "point blank", and really show their ignorance!
If we want to be taken seriously, details count!

[npincus]

77. Blast Pattern graphic here:

enlarged, original from NYT

[daleo]

79. Looks more like a Mafia hit than an accident

Sure, looks can be decieving...

[FlaGranny]

82. It looks very much like the

center of that hit was about 3 inches down from the center of his left clavicle.

Edit: The lower part of that pattern is over the left lobe of his liver. The center of the hit is quite close to the aorta and it's branches leading to the neck.