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Help me refute this guy re: Wal-Mart, U.S. poverty, the working poor...

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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:31 AM
Original message
Help me refute this guy re: Wal-Mart, U.S. poverty, the working poor...
My friend (my boss, actually) is having an e-mail debate with her brother. It began when he celebrated with a Quarter Pounder after running a marathon & she chided him because it is not healthy and because McDonalds does not pay their employees well. She made the same point about Wal-Mart & her bro is a big Wal-Mart fan.

I can help her refute his points, but I 'd like your input, DU friends.

Some of his "points":

• There are no poor people in the United States, except in a relative way. Everyone here has plenty of food and clothing. Not everyone in the US has every luxury, but no one here starves. You want to see real poverty, you'd have to go to sub-saharan Africa, or some parts of latin America and the carribean.

• He says that he doesn't know what she means by a "living wage". Enough to buy a new car every three years? Or, enough to feed your family? Because if it's the latter, then Wal-mart certainly pays a "living wage" or its employees couldn't work.

• Re: eating McDonalds, he says that obesity is caused by consuming more calories than you burn and that it doesn't make any difference where the calories come from. He says that if you include the breakfast menu, you could eat quite healthy by eating the stuff that's on the menu at McD's. Just so long as you don't eat the same thing off their menu every time you eat, you would be much healthier and better fed than virtually all of sub-Saharan Africa. Exercise, and be careful not to eat too much, and you'd be set.

He also went on about welfare. He doesn't like being told what to eat b/c he values his "freedom." He said that some people, "especially in the lower classes," fear freedom and that there's a culture of dependancy & "feel-goodness."

I can certainly point her to the recent statistics from Washington state that reveal that 20% of Wal-Mart employees there are on public assistance. Wal-mart is encouraging the very "culture of dependency" that he rails against.

I'd like some input from the DU think tank. Thanks in advance.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well
bullet number one is factually untrue.

http://www.fhfh.org/hunger.html

Bullet number two is just a guy holding on to a thin thread of logic. And makes huge assumptions about how Wal Mart employees get to work. You seem to have that under control.

Bullet three is true. But what it has to do with poverty makes little sense. Southern fried foods breed over-weight folks, but they are in high demand among the poor because frying foods stretches the food supply. Just like putting bread, onions, and peppers into hamburger. Some people's diets are function of their station. Fry the food, dump gravy on it, and you can turn a semi-spoiled piece of horses ass into "country fried steak". But it's true, don't eat double quarter pounders, ever.

You might also point out to him that he too has dependencies. He just takes them for granted.



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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. Simply ask him to test his theories. Take all his money and credit
cards, his job, his car, and his house...then let him figure out how to provide for himself and family on $5.15 an hour. I can't think of the name of the book, but a couple of years ago, an author did just that. She went to 3 different parts of the country and tried to support just herself on minimum wage. Lived in ratty hotel rooms and had to finally break down and get assistance with food.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Nickel and Dimed, by Barbara Ehrenreich
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Sounds like Barbara Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed in America. nt
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Full time employees should be able to afford basic needs:
-Food
-Healthcare
-Shelter

But 30% of Wal-Mart employees receive some sort of public assistance. People in the sub-Sahara starve and die because there is no opportunity for them to be productive. Wal-Mart employees are bolstering a multi-billion dollar moneymaking machine, and should be duly compensated - without us taxpayers making up for the difference.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Why are the employees of Walmart on public assistance so that
four of the 10 wealthiest people in the world can become richer? Multi-bilionaires, all of them.

The Repukes must feel good shelling out the tax money for Medicaid so that the Waltons can buy another island somewhere. How do they reconcile that with their anti-dependency ideology?
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. SIIIIIGGGHH. Freeps LOVE the old "you're not as bad as ____" canard.
And as usual, it completely misses the point.

Living in squalor is living in squalor. What is he saying? "Until you and your children have only bugs and mud to eat and it rains on your heads at night, then you have no room to talk"? We're not an agrarian culture anymore and it's silly to think that the impoverished of this country should return to such to meet some fat boy's definition of poverty. People here DO starve and you've got to be shitting me to say they don't. I'd like him to attend some cockroach-infested home visits with my social worker wife if he's still in disbelief. Many people she visits only feed their children while they go without.

Wal Mart's "Living wage" means shiznit if it holds you hostage. Did he see The High Cost of Low Prices? Should workers have to seek their own health care? What if families cannot commute to their jobs and need a car? That takes away from time spent with their families. No one who gets paid at least a "living wage" is thinking about buying a new car every three years, they just want one that gets them from A to B. Is he still buying that whole "welfare queens" crapola that Reagan trotted out?

Mickey Ds has crap chemicals in their food that damages human organs no matter HOW many fat calories it has or doesn't have. This has been gone over in Don't Eat this Book and Diet for a New America. Their breakfast menu is one of the WORST for health and is definitely nothing anyone should start their day off with. Nothing but butter, white flour, hormones and animal fat, and if you start off with that instead of fruit and water, that clings to you for the remainder of the week and negates any progress made in exercise.

But since freepers don't read and only listen to Fat Limbaugh for their information, I suppose all you'll get out of him is an "agree to disagree". As usual.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ask him if he'd like to join that group he is denigrating
Edited on Fri Feb-17-06 12:03 PM by Armstead
Assholes like that talk a good game, but they lak the empathy of seeing themselves in the same position. There but for the grace of God goes he...

Ask him if he'd like to try living on $9 an hour, or giving up whatever health benefits he may have, while also working his butt off in a thankless job.

Ask him if he'd like to give up his car and live in an area where everyuthing is spread out beyond walking distane and bus service is crappy.

Ask him if he's like to acquire a home, family and other obligations based on a certain income level, and then lose his job and have to figure out what to do on much lower wages.






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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. thanks, all.
I suspect that she won't get too far with her brother, but this is great stuff and I'd like to read some of the books you guys have cited.
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warrens Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. His points aren't idiotic
If you've ever seen a Brazilian slum, much less something like Darfur, we DO have it fairly good. But that is beside the point. A society's duty is to make life better for everyone, all classes, not just the rich. When it stops performing that function, it dies. See the British and Roman empires. Yes, our poor are richer than their poor, but they're still poor and getting poorer.

A living wage does not mean just being able to eat and have a roof over your head. It means being able to send your kids to college, afford decent clothing, afford transportation, etc. Yeah, working so you can eat is better than starving, but anyone who has ever had one of those jobs knows you work hard for nothing.

McDonald's, far more than Wal-Mart, actually offers fairly rapid advancement to jobs that pay fairly well. And yes, you COULD survive on their food if you chose wisely. They have salads and fruit and grilled chicken.
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mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. Oh. Oh. This Is too good To Pass Up!
Point by Point:

• There are no poor people in the United States, except in a relative way. Everyone here has plenty of food and clothing. Not everyone in the US has every luxury, but no one here starves. You want to see real poverty, you'd have to go to sub-Saharan Africa, or some parts of Latin America and the Caribbean.

I could go on about this one forever.

First of all, he should go to the UN site and read their human rights mandate passed in 1948 and tell me what kind of quality of life can we as Americans call "good" ? Are we as a people supposed to actually say people should just be grateful to have food and a few clothes? He would find that this document points out that ANY poverty is a human rights issue and to allow it in any form is being inhumane. To allow with impunity, any poverty, homelessness unemployment and underemployment, ANY lack of healthcare, much less the lack or a paltry safety net for families, parents, children and the disabled, is akin to genocide. It should be a basic human right to have housing, food, clothing, healthcare, and a job with a livable wage. This document is for EVERYONE, not just people in remote parts of the world!

Has he ever checked the rise in homeless statistics with the millions of working families who are homeless in this country? How would HE like to choose between a home and food? Oh. So I got a free coat so I can huddle with my 2 year old in the park for a little longer before I go to beg for a meal so I can clean his home? Oh yeah what a wonderful quality of American life for me and my kid ~ I have a coat and food!

I also wish he could speak with my friend Margaret, A formerly upper middle class woman, who survived Somalia under nightmare conditions, who was able to get enough education to receives a masters degree there, before she came to America (to live here as a homeless woman and who contracted TB from the street population here). She explains to ignoramuses like this person that poverty in different parts of the world is like comparing apples and oranges. For instance, in America, in order to survive (eat, house and clothes yourself) you HAVE to be employed. In order to keep employment, you need things here that you would not need in Africa ~ like for instance, regular showers. She says in Africa, if you have even a little piece of land where you can squat and perhaps raise a garden, you can survive, could you say the same here in the middle of NY city or Seattle?

Margaret is not my only friend, I could also point him to people from South America, Asia and other countries who would tell similar stories about poverty there versus poverty here. They say the cost of living compared to wages and our cultural expectations for Americans is different here. you might be able to clean house for someone in India in rags, but you would not get into the door here in such get up. A minimum wage job after taxes in this country would not pay the rent for a studio apartment in many cities, much less feed and clothes someone. They would laugh at people like this man who thinks he is so right when he is nothing but ignorant. He actually thinks someone should be grateful to have clothes and food? How about considering a basic human right to have it, especially if we as Americans are going to go and brag to ourselves and the world about how "great" we are while we turn a blind eye to what is going on right under our noses? Hypocrites!

• He says that he doesn't know what she means by a "living wage". Enough to buy a new car every three years? Or, enough to feed your family? Because if it's the latter, then Wal-mart certainly pays a "living wage" or its employees couldn't work.

See above. I repeat: what a hypocrite!

• Re: eating McDonalds, he says that obesity is caused by consuming more calories than you burn and that it doesn't make any difference where the calories come from. He says that if you include the breakfast menu, you could eat quite healthy by eating the stuff that's on the menu at McD's. Just so long as you don't eat the same thing off their menu every time you eat, you would be much healthier and better fed than virtually all of sub-Saharan Africa. Exercise, and be careful not to eat too much, and you'd be set.

Most low income people who become obese come from the diet they are forced to eat. Food stamps today allow around a dollar a meal per person. Tell me, what kind of meal could you eat on that? Families often combine this, so for instance, for a family of four this means 4.00 per meal, but tell me what "feast" could you make on 4.00 that would provide all the nutrition for a family of four? The diet of a poor person is high in starches and fats, low in fresh produce, dairy, and meats as those are the most expensive foods. Few poor can even afford to eat at McDonalds, although that would be a treat if they did eat out, as they could not afford to eat anywhere else.

• He also went on about welfare. He doesn't like being told what to eat b/c he values his "freedom." He said that some people, "especially in the lower classes," fear freedom and that there's a culture of dependancy & "feel-goodness."

Oh so HE is not dependent on all those wonderful services he gets? Does he realize in the state of WA the poor pay almost 20% of their incomes in regressive taxes, while he probably complains about the puny 10% he pays with a whole lot more disposable income and credit at his fingertips? Is 1000 the same to someone earning 10,000.00 in a year as 1000.00 is to someone earning 100,000.00? He needs to learn math if he thinks this is hunky dunky. The low income worker, btw, contributed almost 30% to the national budget as well ~ while the rich paid nothing. So he does not use publicly funded education (even colleges are funded by tax dollars those low income people could NEVEr afford even with those subsidies). So he never drives on publicly paid roads, uses publicly financed utilities or eat foods raised by federally funded mega-farms that are killing the family farm? ALL of this is welfare. He enjoys all of this welfare paidn to him, unless he is out there fixing potholes and watermains himself, growing his own food, pumping and refining his own fuel ~ and he is not the only one who paid for them, his fellow POOR paid at least 20% of their own incomes contributing to them.

Also so he thinks that raising children is “doing nothing” for this country, and that working a minimum wage job making some white man richer, is “doing more” for this country? His is what he expects out of a parent raising the future generations of this country. Why does he hate his people so much? why does he hate family values? Who will take care of him, run this country educate his grandchildren, and raise his food, when he is old? There certainly is not any rich kids in Iraq, and believe me when he gets old he does not want a resentful, ignorant, underpaid person changing HIS diapers, does he?

Lets just hope his idea does not manifest itself into his myopic, selfish, un-American valuless inhumane life!




GAWD, people like this man, who have full bellies, are the most callus and their unconscious love of Nazism is disgusting. Have I mentioned today how much I HATE these people?

Cat In Seattle <----use whatever you wish to conteract this nimrod!
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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. "She explains to ignoramuses like this person
that poverty in different parts of the world is like comparing apples and oranges."

I couldn't agree more. The fact that we are the world's biggest superpower, not a third world county, makes it all the more egregious that people here go hungry.

Thanks again, everyone.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. Point by point--here it is...
There are no poor people in the United States, except in a relative way. Everyone here has plenty of food and clothing. Not everyone in the US has every luxury, but no one here starves. You want to see real poverty, you'd have to go to sub-saharan Africa, or some parts of latin America and the carribean.

• He says that he doesn't know what she means by a "living wage". Enough to buy a new car every three years? Or, enough to feed your family? Because if it's the latter, then Wal-mart certainly pays a "living wage" or its employees couldn't work.

• Re: eating McDonalds, he says that obesity is caused by consuming more calories than you burn and that it doesn't make any difference where the calories come from. He says that if you include the breakfast menu, you could eat quite healthy by eating the stuff that's on the menu at McD's. Just so long as you don't eat the same thing off their menu every time you eat, you would be much healthier and better fed than virtually all of sub-Saharan Africa. Exercise, and be careful not to eat too much, and you'd be set.

He also went on about welfare. He doesn't like being told what to eat b/c he values his "freedom." He said that some people, "especially in the lower classes," fear freedom and that there's a culture of dependancy & "feel-goodness."


1) Wrong. Granted there is worse poverty in other parts of the world, but there are homeless Americans who die of cold and starvation on the street of this country. He needs to seek out this information and come to an informed opinion.

2) A living wage--enough money for services redered to pay rent on a reasonable living space (free of vermin, filth, large enough to house dependents, with adequate heating, electricity, and running water), pay bills, receive healthcare, and have a little left over to enjoy life a little.

3) You CAN eat healthy enough at McDonald's if you choose fruit, salads, juice/water, and grilled chicken meals (not me, ew, but you can). The vast majority of foods prepared and sold by McDonald's and other FF chains are full of chemicals, devoid of vitamins and minerals necessary for health, and loaded with saturated and trans fats.

4) People become dependent on government assistance because of a variety of problems--primarily due to the outsourcing of decent paying jobs and low-paying/min. wage jobs that don't pay the bills (on welfare you get healthcare assistance, especially for children, and housing assistance, which you don't get with min. wage jobs). These problems are due to government policies allowing multinational corporations to export our manufacturing jobs and replacing them with low=paying service industry jobs.

These things are not negotiable--they are what they are.
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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-17-06 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. Re: McDonalds, he also says that
The vitamin D, folate, calcium, iron, etc and other nutrients found in a quarter pounder w/ cheese are as nutritious coming from a quarter pounder with cheese as they would be if they were eaten straight out of the dirt, i.e., with no processing.

I'm certainly not the expert here & I eat it myself sometimes. Is this particular assertion true or false?
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