Libertarian = Embarrassed Republican

[BrainRants]

I've noticed a shift recently from some of my longtime Republican acquaintances to identifying themselves as "Libertarians" These are people who've been wingers all along but are magically transformed into Libertarians when discussing the present crimes and incessant lying in the Republican party.

When they make the claim (usually after some leading questions on my part...heh!) I bring out the phrase "You know, a Libertarian is someone who votes Republican, but is too embarrassed to admit it"

Believe it or not, I haven't gotten ANY debate on that line, and in one instance got a "You know, you're right" which blew me away.

Has anyone else noticed this trend lately?

[Cats Against Frist]

1. Is there a smiley that slits its own throat????

[ComerPerro]

2. or, someone who hasn't realized that the whole "conservative" mindset is

just one big lie.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Yes.

I was giving this guy I know a hard time for being a Republican ("Are you happy NOW with what you voted for?") and he got very huffy and said, "I'm NOT a Republican; I'm a Libertarian." To which I responded, "Well, they say a Libertarian is just a Republican who wants to smoke pot."

[BrainRants]

5. Ooh, I like that too!

nt

[I Have A Dream]

4. Good observation. n/t

[Atman]

6. I don't know of any of my republican friends who still admit it

One rich-guy republican friends has claimed to be a libertarian since just before 2004 election, but still voted for Bush. Now he says he regrets it, and says he's really libertarian this time! LOL! I always point out the same line..."A Libertarian is just a republican too embarrassed to admit he voted for Bush."

On the other end of the scale is my working-class factory-worker republican. The "heartland" type, for lack of a better term. He voted republican his entire life until Bush's second term. No he hates the GOP and everything they stand for. But he still won't go so far as to say he's a democrat or a lib. At least he's not trying to make excuses, like the rich-guy republican.

[eallen]

7. I have many friends who are libertarian, and they are anything but.....

Most of my libertarian friends voted for Kerry in '04. They saw Bush as the anti-libertarian, as someone who had made government bigger, more expensive, and more intrusive.

My analysis is a bit different from yours. The GOP once was a mixture of classical conservatives, classical liberals, libertarians, and what once were called social conservatives. In the last decade, the last group has come to dominate the GOP, and more specifically, the religious right variety of social conservative. Now the GOP is comprised of evangelicals who are looking forward to the Rapture, evangelicals who are trying to foment the Rapture by a hard-right agenda in Israel, right-wing Catholics, and old-fashioned Republicans who are wondering what the hell happened to their party. There has been a religious revival in this nation. About a third of the population are now evangelical or some other brand of the religious right. They are the GOP base.

Having that large a group of dedicated voters who are ideologically united, politically energized, solidly for their party gives the GOP a significant demographic edge. The Democrat wedge right now lies in all those disenchanted libertarians and classical liberals. We have to convince them that the Democratic Party is not just a bunch of crazed Leftists who want to nationalize the oil companies, but instead is the natural home today for anyone who values civil liberty and who lives in the reality-based community. No, the true libertarian will never be happy with some of the social programs we support. But how important is that difference, compared to the Republican war on science and liberty?

[badgerpup]

8. Scuse my ignorance...

But could someone 'splain me just what IS a libertarian, what the ideals are that define one as such?
I have ALWAYS been somewhat left-leaning in my philosphy and politics, being a an old :hippie:...
yet I have been accused of being 'libertarian' in my political views.
Here I thought I was 'Independent'.:shrug:

[eallen]

9. In my view, the big difference between a libertarian and a liberal is....

Libertarians adhere to the notion of minimal or no government. They value individual liberty, in both the civil realm and the economic realm. They think of people as autonomous agents, and tend toward a game theoretic view of the economy.

I think libertarianism would be a fine political philosophy if we popped into the world as healthy and reasonably educated twenty year-olds who never aged. One might say that a liberal is a libertarian who realizes that people are born as ignorant and helpless infants, and that people become infirm and senile in our old age. Because of this, liberals think the government should mandate education, provide public schools, and supply social programs for those who become infirm or incompetent before they have succeeded in the capitalist economy. Personally, I have no problem saying to the healthy adult that if he doesn't start a business or find a job, then the stars are free. Having spent some nights under them myself, I do not look down on those who spend a few years traveling with nothing more than a rucksack and a smile. But the reality is, not all of us are healthy adults.

Another old :hippie:

[Deja Q]

12. The Libertarians I know of are huge spinners...

About "freedom" pertaining only to money.

They also support offshoring and PRETEND they won't get angry if they lose their job and then find out they can't get another. (do these folks live without the need for food, water, shelter, and love? Indeed, given their utterly selfish mindsets, how the fylin'fuck do THEY find real love at all?! )

If you see one, remember to say their words back to them. They talk of self-reliance... until they themselves need help, in which case they conveniently forget themselves.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. American "libertarians" aren't. It's false advertising.

Think Gandhi, Tolstoy, Martin Luther King, Kropotkin, Proudhon rather than Ayn Rand and the idiots who trumpet what amounts to fascism.

[eallen]

30. The left anarchists, beginning with Proudhon, falsely advertise as much.

Socialism requires not just a state to enforce it, but one with a very long reach. If society decentralizes completely, you may get a kind of communal socialism within each small group, but something very different between the groups. That kind of society is in any case impractical in our global economy, unless somehow we get rid of most of the world's population.

[William Seger]

28. Basically...

... most libertarians and most people who call themselves "conservatives" are simply people who hate to pay taxes. The rest is rationalization.

[Blue_Tires]

36. that about sums it up

[Cats Against Frist]

20. Thank. You.

:yourock:

[Dawgs]

10. Is it kind of like a Democrat calling themselves an Independant?

I see many "Independants" on this site that agree with pretty much everything Democrats believe yet they still call themselves Independants.

Are they embarrassed?

[Terran1212]

11. Greens and Independents, "Libertarians"

WWW.LP.Org

That's the American Libertarian Party

[Pathwalker]

15. Wow! I took their political test, and scored VERY "Liberal".

The last political test I took labelled me a "Liberal Socialist Libertarian", but I guess I'm not a Libertarian, after all. I disagreed with them on their Government questions, so I guess I'm just a Liberal Socialist, now. :shrug:

Thanks for the link.

[Buck Rabbit]

18. We must have answered close to the same.

Social Libertarian, Economic Liberal

[Pathwalker]

19. Yep, Social Libertarian, Economic Liberal.

n/t

[eallen]

21. I think this is a better measure...

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

[Pushed To The Left]

24. I'm pretty liberal on that one, too

"Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.64 "

A lot of the questions seem non-political, though..

[Pushed To The Left]

23. That test says I'm pretty liberal!

"Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 20%. "

[meow2u3]

25. That same test said I'm centrist

Your PERSONAL issues score is 50%
Your ECONOMIC issues score is 20%

[badgerpup]

39. Golly gee whiz, I'm a Social Libertarian too!

Numbers in the negative fours.
Is being a 'social libertarian' less likely to get you stoned (like with rocks) and more likely to get you listened to (like with an open mind) than being a 'liberal'?

*is forming a Cunning Plan...*

[Deja Q]

13. That's "independent".

And I do not agree with "pretty much everything" Dems believe in.

For example, I'm one of the few around here who has spoken up against Clinton's two-facedness... And details of all that is for a separate topic anyway.

Besides, in the New Order, only those 100% loyal to the PNAC will be allowed to live. Whatever that is, I've only seen the acronym...

[Ksec]

14. Yea, Ive noticed.

I dont know how any self respecting Republican could be proud of what their party has brought with it. I guess my mistake is believing any republican has self respect.

[Buck Rabbit]

16. Libertarian =

The philosophical tag that many well educucated white people with strong family support systems use to cover there politics of personal greed and selfishness.

They don't need the help of the government why should anyone else. Every man for yourself on an unlevel playing field tilted to your advantage.

[Cats Against Frist]

22. Since I became a libertarian, I've:

1. Moved from an urban to a rural community, to become more energy-conscious, self-sufficient, community-involved.

2. Increased my donations to charity.

3. Got myself in better physical condition, with the goal to quit smoking.

4. Started making more of my own things, shopping secondhand, and taking the time to purchase goods and services from responsible companies.

5. Started a savings account, and actually put money in it.

6. Increased my re-using, recycling and composting.

There are many more things that I would like to do, and plan to do, but I'm not sure how becoming more responsible for myself and my community translates into "personal greed and selfishness."

Now, you would be correct that I'm a well-educated white person with a strong family support system. I also believe in charity, helping those less fortunate, giving a helping hand to one's community, working with local and state government, as much as possible, and dissolving the hierarchies that stratify society.

My libertarian slogan is "Qui custodiet ipsos custodes?," or "Who watches the watchers?" At every level, there is a solution to many of our problems WITHOUT handing over power to a consistently more distant, more concentrated, more corrupt, and more oppresive government.

Libertarianism, contrary to the prevailing bullshit, is not simply about "me for my sake," but it can also be about "humans for humans' sake." The biggest problem that we have is not "the poor," but the apathetic middle class that sits on its collective ass, and continually hands money up to the elites, with no expectations. In addition, that giant government that you support -- IF YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED -- got bought by those very elites, a long fucking time ago.

As I've said, before -- there are only two things that you have to learn to get started on becoming a libertarian. The first is that the idea of community is subjective. The second is that the middle class doesn't deserve to be saved from itself. If you want to get more specific, there is also a third: Personal responsibility means EVERYBODY, including the business person, the owner of capital, the employer, the speculator, the elite, the politician, etc.

Every one of these threads make me want to puke my guts out -- listening to people pile on those who have very good reasons to mistrust government, and those who value freedom, above all else -- all social engineering of the left, or the right.

[sandnsea]

26. That's anti-government, anti-authority

Lots of people believe community and local business is enough to take care of each other. And it largely is, until a bigger storm, like institutionalized racism or a Cat 5 hurricane, hits. The problem with "Libertarianism" is that it doesn't reocgnize the history behind the good fortune we have. It's easy to hate the government when you don't have to truly feed the poor because the government is already doing it.

[NuttyFluffers]

27. the big problem is libertarian has been a co-opted label in america.

so it is currently a misnomer in the vernacular, like many other words before it. kinda like how myth has become synonymous with false in vernacular. unfortunately it's gonna require a change in language to rectify it. the best i can do is "RW Libertarian" and even then it's not exactly the totality of what ayn rand fiction worshiping fools believe. que sera sera.

[Ksec]

29. Sounds more Liberal than Libertarian.

Just my opinion.

[Rob H.]

31. I have a friend who identifies as Libertarian

As far as I know, though, he usually votes Republican (he voted for Bush, too--twice) and he always has Fox News on whenever I go over to his place. He also thinks that Bush's pre-emptive war doctrine is a good idea, too, and has said as much several times.

I think he's just in denial.

[Yollam]

32. Nah, the true definition of a Libertarian...

... is a greedy, ignorant spoiled suburban white-boy repuke piece of shit, who calls himself a Libertarian because he wants his pot, porn and pussy, too.

Their lack of any sense of responsibility for society as a whole is even WORSE than republicans. Neal Boortz, Michael Weiner Savage and Glenn Beck are typical examples of the archetype. I despise them even more than fundies, because unlike brainwashed, braindead naive fundies, they actually have a spark of intelligence, but their lack of any soul makes them use it purely for ill and screwing everybody they can to make a buck.

Libertarian=Selfish POS.

BTW, there are more than a few "democrats" whose ideologies pretty closely mirror those of the Libertarians - they call themselves "social liberals, but fiscal conservatives". The only difference between the two types is that the "democrats" are less uncouth, rude and insensitive than their Libertarian counterparts.

[tabasco]

33. Great post. Couldn't agree more.

Dirty, rotten, selfish bastards who are usually the first ones to cry for help when they meet misfortune.

[Nikia]

34. Some long time Republicans have always been liberatarian

They believed in limited government. They believed that government programs that Democrats promote were a waste of tax dollars and unnessary so they voted Republican. This was before the Republicans were strongly associated with the religious right. This was also before Bush got us involved in this expensive war. This was before Bush announced his plans to sacrafice civil liberities for security.
Some of those Republican voting liberatarians are not happy with the religious right aspect, spending on a foreign war, and the Patriot Act. The Republican party no longer serves their interest as it had previously.
Although I do not agree with them in finding certain government programs as wasteful, I believe that many of them are sincere in their beliefs and have every right to be upset with their former party. Perhaps, they will have the good sense to vote for Democrats.

[seabeyond]

35. 3 repug males in house for dinner. hubby voted kerry. my brother

fox news repug. and my friends boyfriend. i was mouthing about repugs in good humor and finally my brother says , "i am not repug i am libertarian.... i laughed and i said..... all the embarrassed repugs are all of a sudden becoming libertarians. more repugs are claiming to be libertarians today in shame for the repug. i laughed and laughed.

thanks all for having this thread up, just so i could say this tonight. appreciate it.

[Charlie Brown]

37. From what I've seen, Libertarians are mostly gun nuts

Every time I encounter any kind of LP pamphlets or platforms, firearms are always the most important issue for some reason. Even to the point where they think all licences and registries are unconstitutional. That and they always wine, wine, wine about taxes.

They're basically Pat Buchanan with a gun.

Also, they try to reel people in with a pro-choice and pro-gay platform, but almost never do anything to advance either of those causes, and sometimes are openly hostile to these causes inspite of their promises (Boortz, for example, wanted Janice Rogers Brown appointed to the SCOTUS). I think it's b/c a lot of them are actually closet neo-cons and secretly want the gov't to hold minorities down. Not all, of course, but quite a few.

That said, Harry Browne's blog is one of my favorites. He's outspokenly against the war and one of the current administration's biggest critics. If I had been old enough to vote in '96, I may have voted for him.

www.harrybrowne.org

[wtmusic]

38. Absolutely!

My Repub cohort has been reduced to claiming "all politicians are crooks, I'm going to move out of the country, in truth I'm a libertarian, blah blah..."

Very funny to watch this transformation. Anything but say, "I was wrong." :silly: