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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 11:55 AM
Original message
Climate change question
There is a discussion on the idiot Michael Crichton in LBN and climate change.

I am somewhat skeptical about climate change. Do I think the world is getting warmer? Yes. Do I necessarily think it is a bad thing? No. Do I think that man is causing climate change? Unconvinced one way or the other.

For example, I remember this article from over the summer <http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,357366,00.html> The gist of the article is that scientists are finding ancient trees under glaciers. They figure that when Hannibal brought his army over the Alps there may not have been any snow there.

Does this fact alone disprove that today is the warmest in human history? Of course not. If the Alps have been warmer it does not mean that the rest of the world was warmer (because the earth is a large place).

Well, am I a fool? I would like to be convinced one way or the other -- just don't call me names even if I am a fool.

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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. here's the environment forum, some interesting reading there
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
2. The Real Climate website is dedicated to questions like yours...
http://www.realclimate.org/

I also recommend following the "Environment and Energy" forum here at DU. We talk about such things endlessly. The news is mostly bad. Very bad, in fact.
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Michael_UK Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. My advise would be..
Keep an eye on what you're reading. There's an awful lot of stuff out there written by conservative think tanks posing as science.

The basic science is that

1)the world has got warmer
2)there's more CO2 and other greenhouse gases in the environment. This is due to human emissions.

These two are observed facts and as far as I know, there's no dispute there.

3) Most climatologists believe that much of warming is likely to be due to the increased CO2 in the atmosphere. Every major report has concluded the same thing.

There's a lot of uncertainty about how warm it will get. Now, we know the climate has been warmer in the past, but climatologists look at each change separately, and they seem to conclude that nothing else can explain the recent warming than global warming theory.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. That is my concern
Where I live getting a bit warmer would be nothing but good news. It may not be that way for everyone.

Some of my problems with the "threat" of global warming is it may make parts of the world more habitable (large parts of Canada, central asia, Mongolia, etc.) This is good. Also some people think the world will heat up in perpetuity which cannot be assumed.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Actually there are larger problems with Global Climate Change...
Than making tundra into mudflats(which is what it is turning into). First, Global Climate change means that almost 1 billion people will be displaced from their homes in all low lying coastal areas of the world(within 6-7 meters of current ocean level). This is the estimate of what would happen if landbased ice from either Greenland or the Western Antarctic ice shelf breakup, which, in case you are wondering, is happening and its accelerating as well. Also, we know about the composition of the atmosphere dating back to the last ice age at least, and scientists are alarmed for a reason, and that is because the levels of CO2 today are several times more than they have ever been for the past 10,000 years or so.

Other effects of Global Climate change include, droughts in the breadbaskets of the world, such as the Midwest of the United States(already happening). Greater evaporation of the oceans, along with greater differences between tempuratures of the poles and the equator. It is estimated that the average tempurature of the equator will raise a full 1 degree, while for the north pole, it will be 12 degrees. This will lead to storms, namely hurricanes and typhoons that will make last years Katrina seem like just a small shower. You know, the tundra of Canada may seem like an idealic spot until 200 or more tornadoes will rip through the area every year. These effects are measurable, and, especially over the past decade or so, these changes have been happening at an ever accelerating rate.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. When you say, "Where I live getting a bit warmer would be nothing but good
news," you may convey the idea that you don't know what you are talking about.

Global warming is not merely about making cold areas a bit warmer. It will have effects as diverse as shifting the gulf stream (having the effect of making it colder in some areas), affecting the salinity of sea water (affecting sea life), changing coastlines (increasing flooding), causing local species relocations and extinctions (already the long-established migratory patterns of some birds have been altered), changing the patterns of rainfall (and more violent weather events like hurricanes), killing crops in areas where they currently thrive (from drought and other crop yield changes).

When you say "this is good" you are either exhibiting a childlike naivete about the situation or you are placing very little value on the currently established patterns of human life which would surely be greatly disturbed.

While there is not unanimity within the scientific community, the overwhelming majority of scientists believe that human activities have greatly contributed to global warming.

Of course, you won't notice too many changes in your lifetime, but the trends suggest a radical change over a millennium, which is just a moment in time when measured on the scale of global evolution.
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joeunderdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Pentagon says that the number one threat to us is...
Global Warming. Not terrorism. Not the Bird Flu. Not overpopulation.

Global Warming. the Pentagon...and NASA too.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. Remember there are a lot of whores out there
That will say anything to make sure their corporate and "think tank" sponsorships continue. Whenever you read an article about global warming/climate change check out who the author is, see where they get their paychecks. More often than not, the people who claim that global warming/climate change is good or deny that it is happening are also cashing checks or owe their careers to their patrons, who in turn, are profiting from business/industries that are destroying the environment.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Of course the earh's temperature changes over time.
Edited on Mon Feb-20-06 12:17 PM by Canuckistanian
That's natural due to things like asteroid strikes, volcanoes and slight variations in the sun's output.

But what's remakable is the the rate of change in the temperature and also the level of CO2 in the atmosphere.

Those past temperature changes happened slowly, over hundreds or thousands of years. We're seing major changes in just under a generation. And we're not sure if plant and animal species can take such sudden changes without damaging effects.

Now, the CO2 problem is the most worrying. According to estimates, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is the highest it's ever been and is not showing any signs of fluctuating - only increasing. And while climatologists argue what effect that will have, we are still entering unknown territory.

Can the process reverse itself? Or will it be a runaway "domino effect", leading to another situation like there is on Venus, a nightmare world of sulphuric acid rain, constant cloud cover and unsustainably hot temperature.

I'd like to believe the former. But that's only if we DO something, starting NOW.
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. As the earth warms
Weather patterns will change. Species will go extinct. Floods, droughts, hurricanes, food shortages will come and diseases will appear. You may not see those as bad things but soil in the eastern half of Canada is rather poor for corn production. I doubt there will ever be enough proof that man is directly responsible. Sports betting is a almost a science and they nearly are very reliable in picking sports spreads. Science is at least that accurate. Wish I could bet you and take your money.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. Exxon has spent millions to put exactly those thoughts in your head
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Texacrat Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. I was on the fence about climate change until this summer and winter
Do I think climate change is a bad thing? I think it has its pros and cons, but we need to know what that is. If cities like New Orleans and New York become uninhabitable because of global warming, we need to know that.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. I was at a seminar addressing this question, last week ...
Edited on Mon Feb-20-06 05:37 PM by Lisa
While we know that there were cooling and warming intervals in earlier times (the most recent example of a sustained warming trend was probably in the Middle Ages, which lasted several centuries) -- the researchers investigating this noted that even that situation was intermittent. There were a lot of local disparities, so some regions were warming up while others weren't.
(That's what the seminar was mainly about ... they figured that the "climate curve" of the past few centuries actually had more jiggles than had been suspected, and that both the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age were, respectively, warmer and colder. They only LOOK relatively flat because we have been taking global rather than regional average temperatures.)

The climate change models are predicting that large areas of the planet would be in synch, if warming continues this century -- so more regions would be affected, than during portions of the Medieval Warm Period, or the climate amelioration (after the Subatlantic Deterioration of 500-400 BC) which warmed up the Alps in Hannibal's time.

This in itself is interesting, because there seem to be a lot of actual impacts being reported, in many places around the world -- not just temperature or precipitation measurements, but real-life changes in the way things are. Melting permafrost and the disappearance of sea ice, some species getting scarce and other ones showing up where they didn't live before -- the Inuit, for example, have a lot of experience looking at these things, and they know how variable conditions can be in the Arctic. But now they're saying that it's not the way it was before. Scientists say that the environment "integrates" conditions over a number of years ... so one or two abnormal seasons probably won't have much of an effect, but if things go on changing, then we start to see things "where the rubber meets the road".

The more rapid the changes are, and the larger the areas being affected, the more it suggests a change in the fundamental factors which shape our climate. If we could blame this on shifts in the amount of energy being given off by the sun, or the amount reaching the earth's surface (due to orbital cycles, or sub-atmospheric stuff like clouds, etc.) -- this should have been detectable by now. Scientists call the sorts of things which can affect climate "forcings", and the one that seems to make the most sense is the increase of energy-retaining gases in the atmosphere, which we've been observing for half a century. I asked some of the researchers I work with if they have seen any evidence for an orbital or even sunspot "forcing" that might account for the recent warming, and they drew a blank.

If it were just temperature, that would actually help some species and some areas (as the original poster pointed out) -- growing seasons would start earlier, conditions would be less harsh, etc. However, a bunch of other variables would be changing at the same time.

For example, higher evapotranspiration and the loss of mountain glaciers would mean drier summers in a lot of places. So the net result of warmer climates could be less soil moisture -- which would cancel out any advantages to a jump-started growing season, in many places. (Then there is the concern about more pests surviving milder winters, which is bad for crops and forests.) Russia and Canada used to believe that global warming would be good for their economies ... but as we've started totalling up the damage to various sectors (replacing coastal infrastructure, fixing railways as the permafrost starts melting, etc.), it doesn't seem it'll be a boon for most of us, even if the winters up here do get less severe.

What makes matters even more complicated is that some of the changes would have a kind of feedback effect. There could be negative feedbacks (where the changes have a natural dampening effect ... such as, more evaporation means more clouds, and maybe that'd cool things off a bit; or maybe the increase in CO2 would stimulate plant growth, and more CO2 would be taken out of the atmosphere). But there seems to be more evidence for positive feedbacks, where the changes would accelerate warming. For example -- warmer conditions would increase decay rates, and more CO2 would be emitted from the soil -- plus the increased risk of forest firs. Up north, the decrease of snow cover would result in more sunlight being absorbed by the surface. Researchers are still trying to figure out what these feedbacks are, and how much they might add.

No, you're not a fool. That's why they have refereed journals and peer review for examining these kinds of questions -- scientists know that an inital theory, or a study done using just one temperature indicator, may be mistaken or oversimplified. It's also why it took several decades for the majority of climate scientists to decide that global warming could pose some serious problems.

Something else to consider is that in Roman times, the world population was less than half a billion people. In fact, it was probably similar to the number of people living in North America today. That was for the whole planet.

We're now looking at 6 billion, going on 7 billion ... and by the end of the century, it will be 9 billion if we're lucky and we don't have major famines, wars, and disasters. We've already put most of the accessible land under cultivation. That gives us less margin for error ... we can't just abandon large portions of continents, and migrate on to wetter more fertile areas (as the Central Asian nomadic people did at the end of the Roman era, arguably contributing to the end of that particular empire). As it is, many areas are having water shortages (e.g. the overpumping of the Great Plains aquifers), without having this extra issue.


p.s. As a climate researcher, I'd be happy if global warming weren't happening, because I could focus on things like El Nino prediction, and looking at obscure historical records to unravel questions just like the one about what climate was like in Hannibal's time. I really don't want to worry about disputes over water, or whether our area's economy will be threatened by the mountain pine beetle expansion, or whether the new national park we just spent millions of dollars acquiring will be submerged by the end of the next century! Let alone having to consider things like how much to spend on shoreline protection, or whether emissions trading systems are workable. But the way things are shaping up, it looks like I won't have much of a choice.


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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Another question
How good is the historical data? I hear about ice cores and other things. How well do they match up over time? ie ice cores v. human historical data v. old trees tested via carbon 13?

I am also interested in the Medival Warm Period and Little Ice Age. I think some cooling events (year without a summer) matches very well with some big volcanic activity I think. Why Medival Warm Period?

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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. The ice-core and sediment data are very good . . .
They provide a reasonably solid correspondence with historical data, at least as far back as it goes.

The deepest ice cores, both from Greenland and he new super-deep cores from Antarctica (something like 1.1 million years BPE) match the sediment records and the proxy data, which are largely contained in fossils of certain sea animals. They also provide strong correlations for smaller-scale changes in climate caused by volcanic eruptions - Krakatoa, Tambora (1815) or the really, REALLY big one, Toba, which was about 65,000 years ago.

For information on GRIP 1 and 2 and GISP:

http://www.gfy.ku.dk/~www-glac/ngrip/presse_090904_eng.htm

http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/mayews01/mayews01.html

For information on Antarctic deep cores:

http://waiscores.dri.edu/

http://www.climateark.org/articles/1999/icecore2.htm

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000352EA-658A-10C7-A58A83414B7F0000

The Medieval Climate Optimum may have been natural variation, and it seems to have been a regional, rather than a global phenomenon.

http://holocene.meteo.psu.edu/shared/articles/medclimopt.pdf

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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-20-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. thanks hatrack!
Edited on Mon Feb-20-06 06:44 PM by Lisa
I didn't know about the 1.1 million-year core -- just the 700-800 thousand year ones. That's great! I can hardly wait to see the temperature isotope info and the trace gas breakdown.

Re: the Medieval Warm Period -- here is the NOAA page. They question the concept of a "global or hemispheric" climate shift during that time (as you say, more of a regional thing).

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/medieval.html

I have heard that there are some authors who have proposed it was caused by a solar cycle, or ocean thermohaline circulation, but I don't have the latest info on that.

One of the things the paleoclimate guys who gave the talk last week were grumbling about, was how the records in North America and Europe don't match up exactly.

As far as how well the different proxy data sources match up within a region ... sometimes there are some issues with exactly which variable is being measured (start of growing season, amount of erosion, shortages of soil moisture, etc.), but often the matches are surprisingly good.

As hatrack said -- they've got a whole range of things to look at, including ice cores, sediments (both freshwater and marine) which contain the fossils of pollen and diatoms, and tree rings. There are also other neat sources, like buried packrat middens, which occur in some places. I'm always amazed by how creative people get, to find data sources. Medieval harvest records, church documents on births/deaths, and even illustrations in prayerbooks have been suggested (e.g. the amount of clear sky, snow cover, and types of crops being grown).


Re: the Year Without a Summer -- it's possible that Al Gore's book, coming out in April, might talk about this. He mentioned it several times in "Earth in the Balance", and I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to return to the topic, to incorporate new information.

AngryAmish -- Another book which you might enjoy is David Keys's "Catastrophe" (recommended to me by a classical archaeologist, so the Roman stuff at any rate seems to have withstood her critical eye). It looks at other historical climate shifts which may have been related to volcanic activity.




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