Just spoke with a military doctor who returned from Iraq

[tinfoilinfor2005]

within the month. I run a resort in the Keys and he has been an owner here for years, and I have often spoken to him while he was stationed over there. Ten minutes ago he came into the office to let us know that he had returned.

After the greetings and hugs, I finally asked him, "Doc, tell me truth. How does it look for Iraq?" He looked at me, shook his head and just said, "No."

After a few seconds of silence he told me that it is now like quicksand. There were never enough troops to make really make a difference and now we are stuck. He said that he isn't sure that any administration could fix it. It will probably be for years. "And they know it," he said.

Not any big surprise, for certain, but a little disconcerting hearing it live from someone I trust who was just there.

[brokensymmetry]

1. Thanks for the report. n/t

.

[MH1]

2. "Quicksand"

is the word I've been looking for to describe Iraq, for a while now.

It's just so terribly sad, and to know our country is responsible... :cry:

[MADem]

5. Makes QUAGMIRE sound positively upbeat, dunnit??? n/t

[Poiuyt]

14. Remember the Viet Nam protest song "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy?"

Waist Deep In The Big Muddy

* (Pete Seeger)

It was back in 1942, I was part of a good platoon
We were on manoeuvres in Louisiana one night by the light of the moon
The Captain said, We got to ford the river, that's where it all began
We were knee deep in the Big Muddy
And the damn fool kept yelling to push on

The Sergeant said, Sir, are you sure this is the way back to base
Sergeant, I once crossed this river not a mile above this place
It'll be a little soggy but we'll keep on slogging, we'll soon be on dry ground
We were waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the damn fool kept yelling to push on

Captain, sir, with all this gear no man will be able to swim
Sergeant, don't be a nervous nellie, the Captain said to him
All we need is a little determination, follow me - I'll lead on
We were neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damn fool kept yelling to push on

All of a sudden the moon clouded over, all we heard was a gurgling cry
And a second later the Captain's helmet was all that floated by
The Sergeant said, Turn round, men, I'm in charge from now
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the Captain dead and gone

We stripped and dived and found his body stuck in the old quicksand
I guess he didn't know the water was deeper than the place where he'd once been
For another stream had joined the Muddy a half mile from where we'd gone
We were lucky to get out of the Big Muddy
When the damn fool kept yelling to push on

I don't want to draw conclusions, I'll leave that to yourself
Maybe you're still walking, maybe you're still talking
But every time I hear the news that old feeling comes back on
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damn fools keep yelling to push on

Knee deep in the Big Muddy
And the fools keep yelling, Push on
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the damn fools keep yelling, Push on
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damn fools keep yelling to push on

[mhr]

3. Estimates Before Bush's Folly - 500,000 Troops To Occupy

eom

[HereSince1628]

6. Anyone know how many DIFFERENT individuals have been sent

to Iraq? I have a sinking feeling it is actually pretty close to 500,000. Having 150,000 in hostile fire zones is a LOT. Two or three rotations to rest, replenish, refit and retrain the force and you are knocking on the door of 500K.

It is pretty clear that we are straining our ability to replenish with new troops, there is really no evidence that armor protection for individual troops or for convoy vehicles is much improved. We are learning about how to survive in a largely urban warefare environment. But surviving isn't advancing control.

If the invasion had involved 500,000 troops all at once it _might_ have pushed the pacification/stabilization process along a different trajectory, but I am not sure.

At some point, the assymetrical nature of urban warefare simply makes more troops a bigger target. More patrols will ultimately yield more exposure to IEDs and snipers, more service people in an urban warefare environment simply mean more targets if the troops maintain routines as they were trained to during conventional symmetrical war fighting - - just think about how we concentrate troops in mess halls, latrines and barracks within mortar/rocket range and move them in convoys not able to detect and protect from remote controlled bombs. . .

[Arkansas Granny]

9. You also have to factor in the casualties and the last figures I

heard were over 2,200 dead and 15,000 to 40,000 wounded.

American Military Casualties in Iraq

Date Total In Combat

American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 2286 1833
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 2149 1734
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 1819 1527
Since Handover (6/29/04): 1420 1199
Since Election (1/31/05): 850 721
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 16742 15000 - 48100

http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

The columns are hard to read, but the first number is total and the second is in combat.

[mhr]

10. The Estimate Was Based On Having American Patrols

Stationed through all significant neighborhoods in place at the same time all across the country.

It included those troops that were resting or otherwise engaged while their counterparts were on the street.

Think of martial law 24/7. Done properly, no Iraqi could have stepped from their door and walked more than a block without seeing a troop.

[BlueEyedSon]

13. I think the general bush fired said 300k-400k.... certainly 100k is not it

[flyarm]

4. and just where are we going to get the troops ..

for years????????? hardly anyone is re-upping..and the numbers of recruits is dim...so where are we going to get the man power??

hell japan is now pulling out...not that they had many there anyway..

fly

[against all enemies]

7. He gives Bush too much credit, he knows nothing.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

8. He wasn't talking about bush...he was referring to the Iraqi people.

Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

[izzie]

11. Sad news for the people of Iraq and military here.

--all so pointless.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

12. He said that the people in those regions are used to sitting back

and waiting for 'the sands of time' to rid them of their conquerors and bring the power back to the people. I can understand this logic up until OIL entered the equation. I'm afraid that there is more than just sand that is perking their interest.

[EVDebs]

15. That 'long time' presence of US troops is what is fuelling insurgency

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2432151

Will somebody in Congress please listen to Rep Murtha ?