The Confederate States of America (film)

[Kerrytravelers]

Tonight, Mr kt and I saw The Confederate States of America.


Here is the brief description from the movie house showing the film:


Here is the IMDB page:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389828/

And here is the film's official site:
http://www.csathemovie.com/

CSA: The Confederate States of America, through the eyes of a faux documentary, takes a look at an America where the South won the Civil War. Supposedly produced by a British broadcasting company, the feature film is presented as a production being shown, controversially, for the first time on television in the States.

Beginning with the British and French forces joining the battle with the Confederacy, thus assuring the defeat of the North at Gettysburg and ensuing battles, the South takes the battle northward and form one country out of the two.

Lincoln attempts escape to Canada but is captured in blackface. This moment is captured in the clip of a silent film that might have been.

Through the use of other fabricated movie segments, old government information films, television commercials, news breaks, along with actual stock footage from our own history, a provocative and humorous story is told of a country which, in many ways, frighteningly follows a parallel with our own.

After victory, President Davis brings slavery back to the northern states by offering a tax rebate to businesses and households who will buy and own them.Liberals move to Canada. The nation chooses an expansionist policy and conquers Cuba, Mexico and South America.



This was quite an eye opening film. The room was full of people of all ages. I will say, however, that it was startlingly white in that room. I did not notice any minorities. I watched it, not realizing that the concept was based on facts- the products in the commercials are actual products once found in America. Also, the Confederate States had wanted to move into South America and progress into the islands.


On the official site's Links page, you will find:

The NAACP strives to protect, enhance and preserve the civil rights of African Americans and other minorities.  For further information visit their website at:
www.naacp.org

The ACLU is an advocates individual rights by litigating, legislating, and educating the public on a broad array of issues affecting individual freedom.  For further information visit their website at:
www.aclu.org

The Southern Poverty Law Center is internationally known for its tolerance education programs, its legal victories against white supremacists and its tracking of hate groups.  For further information visit their website at:
www.splcenter.org

The National Black Programming Consortium was the first entity to recognize the value of the concept behind C.S.A. and, thus, became it's first source of funding.  They have, since 1979, been a instrumental in bringing tales of African American culture to the American public.  We recommend you take a look at the programming they are currently involved in.
www.nbpc.tv

If this shows in your area, I suggest seeing it.

[TaleWgnDg]

1. Did it depict that white poor and "middle" class would continue

to be deprived of a free and public school education? Thereby continuing their illiteracy and isolated ignorance?

[Kerrytravelers]

2. It focused mostly on the slavery of all peoples "non-white" and

the dominance of White Christian Men over everyone.

[TaleWgnDg]

3. Bull. Prior to the Civil War there were white class

distinctions. The white poor and "middle" class were not educated and were isolated (kept ignorant) due to the governance structure. Whereas the white plantation class were educated, not isolated, and governed themselves.

It's quite ironic that today's southern white lower classes remain ensconced in a fictional self-made era that never existed.

[Kerrytravelers]

4. The film was staying focued in one area. They never deny anything

you've expressed. They just had a different focus. See it and you'll see what I mean. Check out the sites! :)

[TaleWgnDg]

7. shall do, and ty.

[Yupster]

10. When does the movie have slavery ending?

That's been a question in every "what if" story on the Civil War.

By the way, in a similar vein, Harry Turtledove has a book called "A Different Flesh" which examines this subject.

The what if is "what if the landbridge to Asia opened 150,000 years ago, not 30,000 years ago.

So when Columbus came to America, he didn't find Indians, but instead Homo Erectus hominids.

It's an interesting book which covers the question of how societies treat people through history.

[AndyTiedye]

15. I'm Guessing Never

If they were so expansionist that they take over everything south of us,
what would have kept them out of Canada? Surely they would have pursued
their enemies (our ancestors) into Canada with such a potent alliance
behind them.

They would never end slavery, they would seek to enslave the rest of the world.

[Kerrytravelers]

17. Never is correct. They even have a Home Shopping Channel

where you can buy your slaves (the whole family or just certain members... it's all up to the consumer!)

I must admit, I didn't know how to react. It wasn't funny, but the way they presented it, you couldn't help but snicker a bit.

[Solon]

28. OK, bad joke, but is this in the movie as well?

Found it on the internets. :hide:

[Solon]

26. Actually, there are two books that cover those subjects...

The books I'm talking about are Guns of the South. The other book is actually called How Few Remain, its set in the 1880s and talks about the Second War between the states. That book is actually a start of a series, he then fast forwards to 1914 or so, to WW1, there's a series of four books covering that(USA sides with Germany, CSA sides with Britain, France). Those books are called the Great War Series, then there are the books covering the in between years of peace between the USA the CSA and the rest of the World, these are called the American Empire trilogy(Guess who won the Great War?). Now, today, there are a couple of books out that are covering a new war that broke out, you guessed it, World War 2, this new series is called the Settling Accounts, it isn't a completed yet.

[maine_raptor]

30. Yea, That Turtledove series is great.

He's one of the very few fiction writers that I will buy hardcover. I've follwed him since Guns of the South and cannot wait for the next installment of the American Empire Series (due out in July '06).

[Yupster]

31. Big Turtledove fan here too Maine_Raptor, but

I've deen dissappointed with the Civil War series. I think Guns of the South is his best, but I've lost interest in the last few books.

I thought the last one sucked. It wasn't really even "what if" anymore. He was just rewriting Hitler and WWII and putting different names on it. As soon as he mentioned Pittsburgh, I said, oh Stalingrad, okay, and I knew the whole story from there. Weak or lazy effort I thought.

I am still loving the lizard series that started in WWII though. Some great big ideas to ponder in that series. Gotta love Fleetlord Atvar, a truly great character.

A also think his two recent Pearl Harbor books were wonderful but I hope he doesn't keep that series going as I don't think he really has anywhere big to go.

Anyway, I always buy his books, even the ones I don't think I'll like.

[Iris]

41. hey. That's still happening.

Or is that what you meant?

[Ignacio Upton]

5. Sieg heil mein furher, Jefferson Davis

Sieg hiel!:sarcasm:
....One a serious note, I don't think that there would even have been an alliance with Hilter, as Britain probably would've eventually lost World War I or it would have been a stalemate without the AEF (American Expeditioary Force) coming in to help. The almost-alliance with Britain during the Civil War probably wouldn't have lasted long, and the "CSA" would probably have sought an alliance with the Kaiser during WWI.

[Kerrytravelers]

6. Exactly. The CSA actually supported hitler by asking advice and

not getting involved in WWII--- in the movie, of course!



Edited to add: in the movie! You never know who is reading!

[Yupster]

11. That's where these What ifs get problematical, because

with a Confederate States, there's every likelihood that there never would have been a Hitler that anyone would have ever heard of.

[Kerrytravelers]

13. The film was keeping America close to what viewers can identify with.

You're thinking for more analytical than the average film goer does today. The idea is to get people talking.

You're quite knowledgable! (That's meant to be a compliment, not a snarky remark.) :hi:

[Yupster]

14. One interesting What if Book

on this topic is "The Guns of The South" by Harry Turtledove again.

It's the spring of 1864 and just before General Grant is about to start his Wilderness Campaign, mysterious strangers agree to outfit the Army of Northern Virginia with AK-47's.

It sounds stupid, but it's really a pretty fun read.

I won't give away who the strangers are cause that's the mystery of the beginning of the book.

[Kerrytravelers]

16. Thanks!

I am always looking for something completly out of the norm of what I usually read. I'll keep a note of it and pick it up sometime!

kt

[Solon]

27. I would also recommend How Few Remain...

Its about the Second War Between the States, in the 1880s. Different point of divergence though, it is NOT about AK-47s

[Yupster]

32. Funny Solon, but

being such a big Turtledove fan, I really can't get into the series that started with How Few Remain. I've liked each book less and less and really thought the last one was a lazy or weak effort. Drive to the East? or something like that. Anyway, it was just a rewriting of the Battle of Stalingrad. Didn't see any real thought put into it.

[Solon]

38. I would agree with you...

to a certain extent, I think he is trying to make his books familiar to what we know of history, similar to this movie(CSA allies with Nazis), which is a practical impossibility. To be honest, I would imagine that if things fell out similar POD to the book How Few Remain, a second war wouldn't have really happened at all, and I imagine, the United States would eventually ally as major trading partners with the Confederate States. Not soon, mind you, there would of been a few states that, even if the Confederates won, would be scenes of contention, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri were all claimed by the CSA federal government, while still loyal to Washington D.C. The only thing I saw that was actually somewhat accurate was the destruction, in the United States, of the Republican party, and the countinual shakeup of politics, federally and locally. But I would imagine that the United States and Confederate States would have patched things up, similar to how the US and Britian did, to a certain extent, after the War of 1812. One realistic possibility with a CSA victory is a Balkanized North America. I would imagine that certain States of the US would also threaten to break away when political conflict occurs with Washington D.C. The most obvious choice would be the Bear Republic(California), which, if they decided not to remain loyal, the United States wouldn't have been able to, especially if it was soon after the Civil War, to even bring up an army to fight that state. Another possibility, and one that is even more realistic is a possible secession of the Utah territory, Lincoln actually had to come to a special agreement with Brigham Young during the civil war, asking for loyalty above all else. If the Mormons saw the CSA succeed they may also advocate independence to practice their religion. Though, I don't know who would suceed at such endevours, and who would fail, but it would make for an interesting series of books.

[Yupster]

8. So in this film, the Confederacy

not only gains its independance, but actually conquers the north?

That would really be a stretch.

There are probably over 100 novels and short stories with the Confederacy winning its independance as the backdrop. Some are very good, others awful. I guess like anything else.

[Kerrytravelers]

9. Sure, the conquering part is a stretch, but it still shows how a percentage

of this country wants us to live. And when, at the end, they show you that all the product commercials are actually based on real products, it's a bit shocking.

And we still have Aunt Jemimah (sp?) and Uncle Ben's today. It just makes you think and is a conversation starter... that's for sure.

[Yupster]

12. The DisneyWorld ride

Splash Mountain is still based on the tales of Uncle Remus, though Uncle Remus is not included.

[Kerrytravelers]

18. Disney is hoping no one will notice.

:eyes:

[Jara sang]

34. Where in the Uncle Remus stories do young women expose their breast?

I missed that part.;-)

[CTLawGuy]

19. I think that if the South had really won

there would have been two states.

The South would have become a Christian fundamendalist republic, similar to Iran,
slavery would probably still exist, evolution and abortion would probably be outlawed, homosexuals executed. Their foreign policy would probably consist of trying to conquer the muslim world (crsuades) and control mideast oil. President would probably be Zell Miller.

and the North would have developed into a European style democratic republic, akin to Canada today. The borders would be heavily militarized. Maryland and Illinois would have massive refugee camps for escaped slaves. The U.S. would probably have abolished the death penalty and would have universal health care. President would probably be Howard Dean.

The westward expansion would have been marred by endless military skirmishes between USA and CSA with the CSA having the upper hand. California and the west may have become an independent state or joined the USA as a cut off part of the country.

That's my 3am estimation of what might have happened.

[Kerrytravelers]

20. I agree with your estimation.

When viewing the film, I let my personal ideas go and accepted the image the filmmaker wanted to present. Although I do agree with your thoughts about how we would have split up, the idea of what the "slave holding" states would be like in terms of culture and general way of life was presented in an interesting way in the film and, in a vague sense, plausible, even if there was a split into multiple countries. They would not have been able to conquer South America, but the culture may have been like this.

I hope my 12 am thought process (while sipping a cider) is making sense. :)

[CTLawGuy]

21. I see we are bicostal tonight

Thanks for posting. I will try to see this movie in NYC at some point.

[Kerrytravelers]

22. West Coast here! Mr kt and I don't rule out living on the East Coast!

The film is certainly worth a look, if nothing else but to see the world from another point of view. Well, for me, a white lady, it was a different perspective and a new way to tackle issues of race and poverty and slavery... both actual and metaphorical.

[Yupster]

23. I don't think the world would be that different

had the CSA won its independance.

I think all governments tend to capture more power to themselves as time goes on, so I don't think the CSA government would have ben too much different from the USA one they left. Maybe 20 years behind.

In fact the CSA which founded itself on the principles of States Rights had a national draft before the USA did.

Instead of there being two English speaking democracies in North America, there would have been three. Canada, USA and CSA would be generally friendly because they had trade needs and similar goals in foreign policy.

The CSA would be a regional power aimed at the Caribbean. Maybe a strength similar to Italy, France or Ukraine. It's likely that Cuba, some other islands, maybe part of Central America would be CSA colonies. New Orleans would be a major world city and the chief trading port of the Caribbean area.

Slavery would have been gradually ended perhaps on the Jamaica model around the same time that Brazil ended its slavery.

That's my guesses anyway.

[CTLawGuy]

25. maybe

but considering the spirited and hostile resistance to African American rights and equality by the South for over 100 years after the civil war, it would be hard to say that the South would only be 20 years behind the north. I wouldn't be surprised if slavery had not yet ended, if the influence of the federal courts and government on their culture, had never taken place.

In the South, religion is a very central part of the culture. I don't believe there would be separation of church and state, considering the powerful current influence of the religious right. In reality, the south for 100 years after the civil war had an overtly racist/conservative society with a racial caste system to an extent not seen elsewhere in the country. I think Christianity and racism would be the grounding principles of the CSA society. There would be a fundamentalist republic, whether backed by a democracy or whether it's run by clergy.

The kind of society that the South was for a 100 years is not conducive to a libertarian, pluralistic state.

[Solon]

29. The only thing is that economics and trade would set in...

I would envision a CSA where, due to pressure from Great Britian and France, would emancipate their slaves, but NEVER give them equality for far longer than the USA did, maybe 40 or so years behind OTL(Origianl Time Line) USA in civil rights. In fact, it may be more akin to Apartheid South Africa where African-Americans would need passes to get from state to state, etc. Internal passports, are Residents, not Citizens, etc.

[Yupster]

35. I don't know

Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Andrew Jackson all came from the south. They seemed to have a clue about democratic principles and progress. The south would have found its new Jeffersons and Washington's if it was a nation. There were plenty of educated and experienced men to choose from.

The Confederacy was set up on democratic principles and even had congressional votes in the middle of the war. Their leaders were committed to democratic principlesas much as their forefathers were.

I guess is they won their freedom they could have become the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, but I really don't see any reason to think that they would have?

The average white male farmer back then had a pretty clear expectation of democracy.

Texas would be a good example. Texas became an independant country, then a state in the US, then a Confederate state all within a 25 year period, and each time a new government was formed it was a democratic one, and when they decided to join the USA it was done by a popular vote, and when they decided to leave the USA and join the CSA it was done by popular vote too. There was an expectation of democracy that was pretty firmly established back then, and I don't see why that would change.

[DerBeppo]

24. it's nice that this was made...

but the premis seems lazy--almost like a long episode of Sliders or something.

A great "what if" read is Phillip Roth's The Plot Against America. A great read that places his life story in the context of a world where FDR lost to Lindberg in 1940.

[Yupster]

36. Yes Derbeppo

A good what if story really takes a lot of research and thought. It's easy to be lazy and just follow lines.

A very good and funny short story I read once was called "Southern Strategy" and was based in the south in the 1950's.

The USA never joined WWI and therefore the war ended with a negotiated stalemate which caused the League of Nations to be formed and run as an important world body run by the chief European Powers Germany, France and England.

This story takes place in occupied southern USA where the League of Nations has sent an occupying force to protect the African-American minority which was being abused in the 1950's south.

League of Nations General Erwin Rommel was in charge of occupied Alabama where Governor Tallulah Bankhead (memory?) was having a tough time keeping order between the occupying powers and the white resistance forces led by George Wallace, and the black resistance forces led by Martin Luther King.

The plot is when Adlai Stephenson is sent down south to try to get the two parts of the Democratic Party voting bloc to stop fighting each other sso the party could be united for the upcoming presidential election.

There's a sinister hand trying to keep the two sides fighting each other who's only known as "Tricky Dick"

The story takes a bad turn when General Rommel is killed by a terrorist attack. The Germans are told Stephenson was the culprit and where to find him. Meanwhile Stephenson has ben lured to the place by a teenaged messenger who delivers him a message while telling him that Rommel's murder had the Germans, "all shook up."

An awful lot of thought put into that story. Was a fun read.

[Solon]

39. That sounds interesting, Have you ever read Stars and Stripes Forever?

I forgot who wrote it, but it was a BAAAD set of books about the Civil War. Basically, it was about the Trent Affair gone bad, and what eventually happened is that the British entered the war on the side of the Confederacy. At least, they did initially, their first strike was against one of the Union forts that held near the Gulf of Mexico, the problem was they hit the wrong fort, their excuse was that the Flags of the USA and CSA were too similar. Basically what happened was that the CSA and USA put the war against themselves on hold to fight off a foreign invader. They eventually hammered out a treaty for reunification, and using their combined forces they expelled the British from the Mainland. They then decided to bring the war to the British by invading Ireland and liberating it from British control. Before you laugh, I laughed too, how they even brought troops to Ireland is my thing, the British had the most advance and powerful navy in the world at the time, no way in hell would the US succeeded in liberating Ireland, they would have barely have left their own ports for naval battle, and if they were lucky, they would have been sent limping home.

[Yupster]

40. Yes I did read that one

It was an odd book -- like oddly shaped or something.

If I'm remembering right General Grant was put in charge of the invasion force which for some reason bugged me. Maybe it was early in the war before Grant would have gained enough rank for that or something. Don't remember, but yes I did read it.

On edit what did make sense to me was that regardless of differences, the number one goal of the two nations would have been to keep the old nations out of their business so I could see that as viable. In fact I think Seward suggested declaring war on Spain as a way to maybe avoid the Civil War.

Turtledove has offered the two countries fighting on opposite sides of World Wars and I just don't see that as any kind of a likelihood. I don't see what would be in it for either of them?

[Solon]

42. It had the Merrimack and the Monitor on the coverart...

You can imagine the flags flying over both, and they were in the process of sinking a British warship. I didn't have a problem with the way that the CSA and USA patched up their differences, though I found the idea of Jefferson Davis being a total fanatic and practically starting the KKK a little ridiculous. My problem stems from the characterization of Queen Victoria basically losing her mind when her husband died, blamed it on the Americans, and vowed to crush them. In addition to that, even though the US and CS made great strides in technology because of the war, with ironclads and submarines, I still don't see them as the Industrial Powerhouses that the United States would become by around the turn of the 20th century. They couldn't have taken Ireland, that much is sure, and the entire series had a really bad Anglophobia in it. I'm no British fan, but really, the generalizations and blunders of the British were really unbelievable in these books.

[Paladin]

33. I Think This Ought To Be Required Viewing.......

....for those of you DU participants who insist on re-fighting the Civil War on an all-too-frequent basis, here. Sure, the movie is total fantasy---but no more so than the present-day fantasies of those of you who regard "Gone With the Wind" as holy writ......

[Yupster]

37. I find almost all what if histories fun, but

look at the USA 100 years ago and today and see the amazing changes that have been made.

To assume that another country would not change in such important areas in 150 years just isn't credible what-iffing.