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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 02:57 AM
Original message
This may not be what you want to hear.
There is a body of constitutional scholars like it or not, that are willing to propound that Bush has the inherent authority to fudge FISA in "time of war." This makes for a un-slam dunk case that he broke the law.

As long as there is a divergence of opinion, it categorically by definition becomes debatable instead of black and white. What Specter is wanting to do is get a definitive clarification from the only place that has jurisdiction over the issue at large; the FISA Court.

Legislation that will force Bush to present his evidence or lack of it to the secret court of jurisdiction will confirm one way or the other if the "inherent authority" was constitutionally supported to do the wiretaps, or that the law was broken. Once this ruling is obtained, it takes away the gray areas and the arguments and sets it into case law by judicial decision.

Specter is not wrong in seeking this court to make that determination before censure would be appropriate. The passions of everyone here including myself, all view this in a biased slant that Bush broke the law. But no court has said he did. I believe that forcing Bush and Gonzalez to have to justify to the FISA that they were within the law to conduct their surveillances is going to disclose that they misrepresented facts to the FISA court by getting warrants using wiretap information obtained without FISA approval.

That will be a clear unexplainable violation of the law. Because it does not go to the fact of whether or not the wiretap was within Bush's inherent authority. This will be misrepresentation to the court. Trust me, Gonzalez is shaking in his loafers that he has to appear before these judges and not only justify what Bush did, but they will look into all past warrants issued and will want to know how the information was obtained that was presented as cause for warrants that were issued.

All we have to do is have ONE domestic wiretap which can be shown was not terrorist related and it's Armageddon for Bush. The only place that can force that kind of information is the FISA Court. I'm sure Specter will expect that FISA makes their determination known to him as to whether it was constitutional or not, based on Gonzalez' testimony and affidavits. Once he has that, if they say Bush broke the law, Frist can't stop it, constitutional lawyers are irrelevant and censure will be the least of Bush's problems.

You have to be willing to accept that it should take that course. No matter what that verdict might be, Feingold's bold move today sets the stage for more hearings, more investigation and more pressure. It co-mingles Conyers efforts now in the House and forces the Republicans to publicly declare allegiance to Bush or allegiance to the constitution.

Specter is not being unreasonable. If you listen to his statements, you will see that he condemns where appropriate but equivocates where he has to. His legislation is the biggest nightmare Gonzalez could have. If you don't think so, I remind you that Gonzalez was so nervous that he sent a "clarification" to Specter about his testimony because of his fears of not being truthful when he testified.

Everything is going just fine. Have your passion but have patience. It's more important to get it right and get him out, than to get it wrong and give him the opportunity to weasel out.

We will nail him but I want to nail him good. No air holes, no loop holes, no wiggle room. Don't vilify Arlen Specter yet. He could be making the iron tight case we need to do just that.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, Specter's a villain all right...
Make no mistake about it. This drugwar cowboy is no friend to the Constitution.

Though you make do make a reasoned case that, just this once, he might be OUR villain.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for your perspective....
As long as someone gets to see who was being spied on, I think it will be do the 'lil dictator in. I recall reading posts here that a Kerry economics advisor, Robert Rubin, may have had his phone tapped. I have no doubts that this administration would use any and all tools they'd have access to in the 2004 election.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Can they prove that Kerry's advisor had his phone tapped? And How?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. I don't know that answer. Seeing that this administration controls
the rules of the game, I'd say it is difficult to prove anything. This is Christine Armapour's husband, btw. Could be that she was the object of their interest...or maybe a 'twofer'.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. Christiane Amanpour's husband...
is James Rubin, formerly of the Clinton-era State Department, not Robert Rubin. Not that that would hurt your theory - anyone who worked for Clinton OR for the librul media would come under the scrutiny of the Bush megalomaniacs.

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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Isn't Specter the guy...
that Ernst Stavro Blofeld worked for?
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. What are the chances of getting the FISA court to look at it??
Who would be privy to their findings? Would there rulings be appealable? Can we trust the FISA court?

I like what you are saying and it makes sense. Why would Spector even attempt this if the outcome you predict is likely?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. when story broke, didn't several FISA judges say they were disturbed
by what was going on??

I thought it was fairly clear that the judges on this special court were very unhappy with what W was doing and claiming.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well I know that one resigned and left the court.
But I also remember another about the female judge that is the head justice on the FISA court being a bush tool.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. You have a passel of questions there.
1. I believe his legislation is being drawn for the sole purpose to force Bush and Gonzalez to the FISA Court for a ruling. Since the program is classified, we would not be privy to the details of testimony. But once the court has taken evidence on the Bush claim for authority, they would reach a conclusion as to whether their court was circumvented illegally or not, and that I believe is the sole most important fact Specter is wanting to have adjudicated. That is the decision they would advise him of.

2. Since this is a special dedicated court, there would not be a typical appeal issue. This is the only court who would have irrefutable jurisdiction to know whether their own guidelines were violated.

3. Yes, I totally believe we can trust the FISA Court. They have already given signals that they were furious. One judge you recall, even quit.

4. Think about it, who else has done ANYTHING to further this investigation, to give Russ Feingold an opportunity at Gonzalez, to state that Frist has no say either even though he was briefed because he is not a "judicial" expert? Specter is a lawyer and he just wants to have case law supporting or refuting. It is not a clear enough case legally yet because this is a first test of the FISA law since it was modified. It is muddied up by Gonzalez as much as possible by claiming AUMF as well as "inherent authority." Specter is wanting to get legal grounds for ramping up justification for breaking the law or following a course to change the law to bring it current with present technologies and surveillance demands. The Court is going to be the last word as to which he goes.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thank you for responding.
Surely the administration would be against such legislation? How could they get it passed?
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Oh you can put money on that.
They're in panic mode over having to be scrutinized by this court which is already pissed.

They're trying to side wind their way through this nightmare by jumping on DeWines legislation proposal which gives them 45 days before they have to get a warrant. But Specter is staying right in their face and preparing his legislation.

If the the Republicans don't support it, they're flying right in the face of their Judiciary Committeee chairman. Do you see the repercussions of that? That's why I keep defending Specter. He's not a lay down troglodyte like those other wankers. And he is in the committee where sparks can fly in a hurry.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I also found this quote
That states that the judges couldn't rule on the constitutionality only on whether or not FISA had been followed.

snip>

Both judges expressed concern to senior officials that the president's program, if ever made public and challenged in court, ran a significant risk of being declared unconstitutional, according to sources familiar with their actions. Yet the judges believed they did not have the authority to rule on the president's power to order the eavesdropping, government sources said, and focused instead on protecting the integrity of the FISA process.

Snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/08/AR2006020802511.html

I am off to bed will check back tomorrow.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. Yes, one of the FISA judges quit in disgust, but
was another appointed to replace him and who decided who the replacement would be?

Also, Specter was the one that refused to make Gonzo the Torturer be put under oath before testifying. He also was the one that stated on the floor of the Senate shortly after that "if what the President was doing was not Constitutional than we need to change the law."

How is any of this supposed to make us feel all warm and fuzzy about Specter? Please explain so I can feel as reassured as you seem to JiC. Thanks.

He's my Senator and I don't trust him as far as I can throw him.
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Is your signature picture available on a t-shirt?
I'm going to be in Washington, DC in a couple of weeks and thought it might be fun to wear a t-shirt like that to Capitol Hill. Maybe I could figure out how to use the picture and make my own t-shirt before then.

Peace,

freefall

P.S. I just had an idea for the back of the shirt. It can have a picture of the White House with a Sold sign across it and underneath it can say "To the Carlyle Group". What do you think?
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
5. Here is the one article in the Constitution about Personal Liberty at
Wartime: Links are at the end


The Constitution at Home in Wartime

Personal Liberty.--''The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people, equally in war and in peace, and covers with the shield of its protection all classes of men, at all times, and under all circumstances. No doctrine, involving more pernicious consequences, was ever invented by the wit of man than that any of its provisions can be suspended during any of the great exigencies of government. Such a doctrine leads directly to anarchy or despotism, but the theory of necessity on which it is based is false; for the government, within the Constitution, has all the powers granted to it, which are necessary to preserve its existence; as has been happily proved by the result of the great effort to throw off its just authority.''1545

Ex parte Milligan, from which these words are quoted, is justly deemed one of the great cases undergirding civil liberty in this country in times of war or other great crisis, holding that except in areas in which armed hostilities have made enforcement of civil law impossible constitutional rights may not be suspended and civilians subjected to the vagaries of military justice. Yet, the words were uttered after the cessation of hostilities, and the Justices themselves recognized that with the end of the shooting there arose the greater likelihood that constitutional rights could be and would be observed and that the Court would require the observance.1546 This pattern recurs with each critical period.

That the power of Congress to punish seditious utterances in wartime is limited by the First Amendment was assumed by the Court in a series of cases,1547 in which it nonetheless affirmed conviction for violations of the Espionage Act of 1917.1548 The Court also upheld a state law making it an offense for persons to advocate that citizens of the State should refuse to assist in prosecuting war against enemies of the United States.1549 Justice Holmes matter-of-factly stated the essence of the pattern that we have mentioned. ''When a nation is at war many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.''1550 By far, the most dramatic restraint of personal liberty imposed during World War II was the detention and relocation of the Japanese residents of the Western States, including those who were native-born citizens of the United States. When various phases of this program were challenged, the Court held that in order to prevent espionage and sabotage, the authorities could restrict the movement of these persons by a curfew order,1551 even by a regulation excluding them from defined areas,1552 but that a citizen of Japanese ances try whose loyalty was conceded could not be detained in a relocation camp.1553

A mixed pattern emerges from an examination of the Cold War period. Legislation designed to regulate and punish the organizational activities of the Communist Party and its adherents was at first upheld1554 and then in a series of cases was practically vitiated.1555 Against a contention that Congress' war powers had been utilized to achieve the result, the Court struck down for the second time in history a congressional statute as an infringement of the First Amendment.1556 It voided a law making it illegal for any member of a ''communist-action organization'' to work in a defense facility.1557 The majority reasoned that the law overbroadly required a person to choose between his First Amendment-protected right of association and his right to hold a job, without attempting to distinguish between those persons who constituted a threat and those who did not.1558

On the other hand, in New York Times Co. v. United States,1559 a majority of the Court agreed that in appropriate circumstances the First Amendment would not preclude a prior restraint of publication of information that might result in a sufficient degree of harm to the national interest, although a different majority concurred in denying the Government's request for an injunction in that case.1560

Enemy Aliens.--The Alien Enemy Act of 1798 authorized the President to deport any alien or to license him to reside within the United States at any place to be designated by the President.1561 Though critical of the measure, many persons conceded its con stitutionality on the theory that Congress' power to declare war carried with it the power to treat the citizens of a foreign power against which war has been declared as enemies entitled to summary justice.1562 A similar statute was enacted during World War I1563 and was held valid in Ludecke v. Watkins.1564

During World War II, the Court unanimously upheld the power of the President to order to trial before a military tribunal German saboteurs captured within this Country.1565 Enemy combatants, said Chief Justice Stone, who without uniforms come secretly through the lines during time of war, for the purpose of committing hostile acts, are not entitled to the status of prisoners of war but are unlawful combatants punishable by military tribunals.

Eminent Domain.--An often-cited dictum uttered shortly after the Mexican War asserted the right of an owner to compensation for property destroyed to prevent its falling into the hands of the enemy, or for that taken for public use.1566 In United States v. Russell,1567 decided following the Civil War, a similar conclusion was based squarely on the Fifth Amendment, although the case did not necessarily involve the point. Finally, in United States v. Pacific Railroad,1568 also a Civil War case, the Court held that the United States was not responsible for the injury or destruction of private property by military operations, but added that it did not have in mind claims for property of loyal citizens taken for the use of the national forces. ''In such cases,'' the Court said, ''it has been the practice of the government to make compensation for the property taken. . . . although the seizure and appropriation of private property under such circumstances by the military authorities may not be within the terms of the constitutional clauses.''1569

Meantime, however, in 1874, a committee of the House of Representatives, in an elaborate report on war claims growing out of the Civil War, had voiced the opinion that the Fifth Amendment embodies the distinction between a taking of property in the course of military operations or other urgent military necessity, and other takings for war purposes, and required compensation of owners in the latter class of cases.1570 In determining what constitutes just compensation for property requisitioned for war purposes during World War II, the Court has assumed that the Fifth Amendment is applicable to such takings.1571 But as to property seized and destroyed to prevent its use by the enemy, it has relied on the principle enunciated in United States v. Pacific Railroad as justification for the conclusion that owners thereof are not entitled to compensation.1572

Rent and Price Controls.--Even at a time when the Court was utilizing substantive due process to void economic regulations, it generally sustained such regulations in wartime. Thus, shortly following the end of World War I, it sustained, by a narrow margin, a rent control law for the District of Columbia, which not only limited permissible rent increases but also permitted existing tenants to continue in occupancy provided they paid rent and observed other stipulated conditions.1573 Justice Holmes for the majority conceded in effect that in the absence of a war emergency the legislation might transcend constitutional limitations1574 but noted that ''a public exigency will justify the legislature in restricting property rights in land to a certain extent without compensation.''1575

During World War II and thereafter, economic controls were uniformly sustained.1576 An apartment house owner who complained that he was not allowed a ''fair return'' on the property was dismissed with the observation that ''a nation which can demand the lives of its men and women in the waging of . . . war is under no constitutional necessity of providing a system of price control . . . which will assure each landlord a 'fair return' on his property.''1577 The Court also held that rental ceilings could be established without a prior hearing when the exigencies of national security precluded the delay which would ensue.1578

But in another World War I case, the Court struck down a statute which penalized the making of ''any unjust or unreasonable rate or charge in handling . . . any necessaries''1579 as repugnant to the Fifth and Sixth Amendments in that it was so vague and indefinite that it denied due process and failed to give adequate notice of what acts would violate it.1580

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/41.html#t1548

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/article01/
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. Only one small problem with that- WE ARE NOT AT WAR.
No formal declaration was ever signed and delivered. The only declaration given was *bush's TV address stating that the bombs were on the way- to the WRONG COUNTRY.
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. Thank you. I find that simple statement has managed
to shut up a lot of assholes in the last few weeks.

I wish Congress would have an up and down vote on the war.
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C_U_L8R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. and he even declared that war over
Mission Accomplished.... right?

So what war is he talking about now??

The one against the phnatom menace terra ?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. It might be hard to prove but it's pretty much a given
that many wiretaps were not terrorist related;

* said the govt "wants to know when Osama calls someone inside the US". He also said they are not spying but "monitoring". (The latter is a bit like saying the ball isn't round, but that it's red.)
There's really only one way to do that, that is to tap every phone. That way, when OBL does call, the govt knows right away.
Even though they can't litterally tap -every- phone, they can tap a lot of m.
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HuskerDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. Seems in direct violation to the fourth amendment to me.
As has been pointed out, Congress has yet to declare war. I see no wiggle room.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. I DO want to hear this... because it's SO WRONG
It's just defeatism. Pure and simple.

Nobody cares what "scholars" think. Nor should they.

This is just the "legalistic" form of knee-jerk defeatism. There will also be "backlash" defeatism to deal with, and "civility" defeatism, and "later is always better - ducks in a row - strategic" defeatism, and "never gonna happen - gosh, we're so helpless" futilism, and on and on...

We're liberals. It's an ingrained behavior.

We need to stop being obsesseed with our abusers (like Specter*). It's a mental illness, really.

We need to stop finely honing our knife to prepare for what is always a gunfight.

We must start shooting. If we miss with spying, we fire again with torture, miss? fire with terrorizing the nation into war, miss? - stealing elections, miss? unlawful secrecy, and on and on. All these things will need to be brought to bear in the court of public opinion anyway to get rid of these crooks. It's the simple reality of "prosecution," from Eliot Ness doing Capone for tax evasion to Fitzgerald doing Scooter for perjury.

We don't need a censure/impeach movement. We just need to move - using the tools/methods available. It's not even about "succeeding" anymore, it's a matter of self respect. We need to finally take the humor out of the neofascists' favorite joke:

Gosh, for a minute there I thought they might actually DO something.

And there's nothing "constitutional" about any of this. That quaint contract was put into breach on January 6th, 2001. Since then EVERYTHING has been a purely political matter.

And a purely political matter is what Censure and/or Impeachment are in their totality. For those purposes something is illegal/legal, impeachable, censurable because you believe it to be - full stop.

You either choose to speak and/or act on those beliefs or you choose to be complicit with those who profess to believe otherwise.

That's right, you either oppose the never-legitimate, unlawful bushkid regime or you are complicit with it.

--
www.january6th.org


* For those who've seen the movie Rustlers' Rhapsody: "{He's} a lawyer, you idiot!"


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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
19. Maybe constitutional scholars -- at the Rutherford Institute or Jerry F's
newly probational law school. Up to now, it's theoretical. There is no constitutional precedent that directly permits this kind of executive overreach. * can't get around the fact of three distinct branches of government that must co-exist as it is written in the Constitution and the interpretation of cases related to "who does what and when". If new constitutional cases allow the lines to be crossed (save for amending the original Articles), that's the beginning of the end of our experiment in constitutional democracy.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. Where were these scholars
when Congress was modifying the FISA law after 9/11 to adapt it to surveillance of terrorists? Did any of them mention, at least in passing, that: "hey, you guys in Congress are wasting your time fooling around with FISA because in time of war El Presidente has unlimited powers anyway and isn't bound by the law."

Did no one "in the know" bother to bring that up back when it was an issue?

(I would suggest they didn't because nobody believed that. What we are dealing with is only a recent concoction by Bushco legal contortionists that will allow them to again escape accountability.)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent, thoughtful analysis -- now here is my (harsh) criticism
I completely agree with your overall theme that we need to have a court of competent jurisdiction rule on whether the president's nsa wiretap program in constitutional or not. Once a court says that it was not constitutional -- and I think we all agree it was not -- then we will be in a much stronger position to impeach Bush.

The tricky question though is a court "of competent jurisdiction" -- that is a court that is appropriate and has been given jurisdiction by Congress over the subject matter.

So what is actually the FISA court? From what I understand, it is a court composed of veteran judges from the federal district court in the Washington district, chosen by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court allegedly for their pro-government bias. They then wear a different hat, sitting on the FISA court which has one sole purpose -- to approve or disapprove of intelligence warrants.

In accordance with our trend toward super secret government, it seems that few people have seen Specter's bill. But as I understand it, it would give the FISA court the authority to approve or disapprove of individual wiretaps under the expanded wiretap program (fine by me), but would also give the FISA court the authority or jurisdiction to rule on whether the entire program is constitutional (not fine by me).

The problem with this structure is that it basically makes the FISA court its own court of appeal. The federal courts in general have the jurisdiction to determine whether any governmental action is constitutional, and those decisions can be appealed all the way to the Supreme Court. If the FISA were an ordinary special purpose warrant granting court, the appeal would be to the federal district court in DC or the Court of Appeals of the DC Circuit, with appeal from there to the Supreme Court.

In other words, what Specter is doing is perpetuating Bush's push toward secret government. Ultimately, our public courts get to determine whether a government's action is constitutional or not. Specter's proposal would shield all the arguments and opinions and outcomes from public scrutiny, because the FISA court is an ultra secret court.

Obviously Specter's bill is a better bill than the competing Republican bill, which would simply retroactively approve of the president's program; but Specter's bill is a further step in eroding open government and the separation of powers.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Unfortunately that is the only
appropriate place this can be reduced to a legal determination. This court was never intended to be made public. It became a victim of it's own violations which exposed it.

Now that the court is no longer secret, it still funtions as a "dedicated" court for the sole purpose of overseeing and authorizing warrant required surveillance. No other court, including the Supreme Court could weigh in on the pro forma of this Court. It is almost the equivalent of a renegade court. No other district or Federal court has been established by the Congress to be secretive.

That's why it must fall to the FISA Court to do it's own internal trial based on the arguments presented by Gonzalez and make the determination as to whether the guidelines were violated in an agregious enough way as to rise to felony crime. Remember that Bush is contending these were only "international" communications which were being tapped for which they were given authority under the AUMF.

You and I both know that's a crock, but until the case is put under their legal microscope, it is accusation but not fact. Specter is going to charge this court with rendering their decision as to whether they conclude the FISA law was violated.

If this court were to be subject to any of the typical reviews of any other lower court, it would be proper to submit the case to the Supreme Court. But not even the Supreme Court is privy to the protocol of what this court was specifically established to do.

If you think of it in this way, they would have to actually hear testimony from the FISA court acting as a defendant of their own secretive charged responsibilities. That would be unprecedented.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
24. This was decided back in the late 1860's.
The courts ruled that Lincoln, (already dead) had to actually follow the law and the constitution, war or no war.

A similar ruling in the 1970's (I think, I haven't looked up the date) ruled that FDR's detention of Japanese Americans was equally unconsitutional as he also was required to follow both law and constitution, war or no war.

Bush could declare martial law - allowed under the constitution - and do pretty much whatever he wants, but he hasn't done that.
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. Russ Feingold graduated Summa Cum Laude from Harvard Law School
and he is a Rhodes Scholar.

I think he probably looked into this a little, before jumping to conclusions.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
26. Yeah, just like if people were willing to debate whether Dahmer's
mutilation and cannabalism were legal, it would be debatable.

Give me a fucking break.

Wiretapping on US soil without a FISA warrant is a felony with a prison sentence of up to five years IIRC.

What is so complicated about that?
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
27. Except those scholars aren't really constitutional scholars they
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 09:45 AM by izzybeans
are professional propagandists. They can not point to where in the constitution exactly this "inherent authority" exists. When they try to use section II and say this trumps statute ask them where in this does it say he has "inherent war time powers". When they resort to saying well the war resolution gave it to him, ask them why the constitution does not trump statue then. And then you've realized they weren't referencing the constitution all along. They're just spinning in hopes we don't read the damn thing.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A2Sec2

Only Congress has "inherent authority" when it comes to war and they must write the law. No Constitutional scholar could say otherwise. There really is no ambiguity here. Creating ambiguity is the art form of a professional propagandist. Congress gave him authority to use force not to spy on Americans absent constitutional rights to "supposed privacy".

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. You have brought the ends of the circle together
in your argument. Only Congress has "inherent authority" when it comes to war and they must write the law.

That is one of the mushrooms Gonzalez is trying to hide under by claiming that the AUMF is their second basis for authority. They're claiming Congress did give them broad authorization in that resolution. As horse shit an argument as that is, they're still contending it.

That's why the FISA Court if forced by this legislation to render a public decision that their guidelines were circumvented to the extent it was not permitted, it is a clear statement that Bush broke the law.

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
28. Call your Senators and ask them this...
Edited on Tue Mar-14-06 09:46 AM by ClassWarrior
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2512789&mesg_id=2512789

Doesn't matter what the "experts" say if their constituents consider it criminal activity.

NGU.


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Mr_Jefferson_24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thank you for the well reasoned enlightening post. nt.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
33. Except Bush spied on Americans *before* "the war"
Which "time of war" are you referring to? Bush was spying on Americans before 9/11 or the Iraq invasion. Wouldn't he have to answer for that?

NSA Spying Evolved Pre-9/11
By Jason Leopold
t r u t h o u t | Investigative Report

Tuesday 17 January 2006

In the months before 9/11, thousands of American citizens were inadvertently swept up in wiretaps, had their emails monitored, and were being watched as they surfed the Internet by spies at the super-secret National Security Agency, former NSA and counterterrorism officials said.

The NSA, with full knowledge of the White House, crossed the line from routine surveillance of foreigners and suspected terrorists into illegal activity by continuing to monitor the international telephone calls and emails of Americans without a court order. The NSA unintentionally intercepts Americans' phone calls and emails if the agency's computers zero in on a specific keyword used in the communication. But once the NSA figures out that they are listening in on an American, the eavesdropping is supposed to immediately end, and the identity of the individual is supposed to be deleted. While the agency did follow protocol, there were instances when the NSA was instructed to keep tabs on certain individuals that became of interest to some officials in the White House.

What sets this type of operation apart from the unprecedented covert domestic spying activities the NSA had been conducting after 9/11 is a top secret executive order signed by President Bush in 2002 authorizing the NSA to target specific American citizens. Prior to 9/11, American citizens were the subject of non-specific surveillance by the NSA that was condoned and approved by President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, according to former NSA and counterterrorism officials.

(more)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011706Y.shtml

This leads to the questions:
1) Who was Bush spying on and why?
2) If Bush was spying on "terrorists" prior to 9/11/01, then why wasn't the 9/11/01 attacks prevented?

These two question I'd like Bush to answer.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. This is your passion speaking
and your strong desire to take a favorable bloggers assertion as fact. He most likely was spying for years but that's not proven yet.

If we had a copy of an executive order signed by Bush authorizing this program prior to 9-11, we could all be doing the happy dance right now.

That is what I'm trying to convey. Speculation about this is two sided. It has just enough wiggle room to keep Bush out of the political electric chair so far.

Once we have a legal opinion rendered by the Court he would have violated, it puts things in a whole different perspective. I'm hoping that is going to be the result of Specters legislation.
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. Reports of wiretapping anti-war activists...
are coming in today....
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. the fascists have mastered the art of turning everything into an "opinion"
Edited on Wed Mar-15-06 02:36 PM by leftofthedial
evolution versus religiously insane superstition

global warming versus no global warming, which morphed into CO2 emissions contribute to global warming versus global warming is a natural cycle

and on and on


they constantly create the perception of complex "grey-area" differences of "opinion"

and use the resulting confusion and intellectual laziness of most Murkans to proceed unimpeded with their crimes

king george broke the fucking law, then he lied about it repeatedly, then he admitted it PERIOD.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
38. Show me where in the Constitution,
a president has any inherent powers other than being commander in chief of the armed forces whenever congress declares war. I'd like to see it.
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