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Why Does Bush Co Have Contempt for the Humane Treatment of Prisoners?

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:53 AM
Original message
Why Does Bush Co Have Contempt for the Humane Treatment of Prisoners?
The question posed in the title of this post is very important. The contempt that our country’s leaders have for international standards on basic human rights is a disgrace, and as Jonathon Weiler says in this article (where he criticizes the Washington Post for acting as a shill and apologist for the Bush administration), “…the fact that the United States is responsible for serious abuses at Gitmo and elsewhere does have profound implications for respect for human rights worldwide”. This may be, IMO, the most important issue of our times, because (among other things) the deserved hatred that this kind of activity generates throughout the world could be sewing the seeds for World War III

Of course, it is almost impossible to fully explain WHY the Bush administration does this sort of thing, since we can’t look inside their minds. But we can start by considering and addressing the typical response of a Bush follower: This is a war like no other war. All the normal rules are out the window. We are fighting for our lives, and if we aren’t as ruthless as the enemy our lives will be put in grave danger.

That argument has a lot of appeal to many people. Theoretically it even makes some sense. But we need to look past the rhetoric, into the realities of how this “war” is actually being waged.


Ignoring of the Geneva Convention by Bush Co

The two most egregious violations of the Geneva Convention regarding our treatment of prisoners IMO are the atrocious conditions under which most of them are held, including the exposure to torture, and the fact that they are held indefinitely without the need to charge them with a crime. Are there any remotely good reasons for this? If there are, our government isn’t explaining what they are. Bush justifies our violation of international law simply by re-defining our enemy as “unlawful enemy combatants”. But international law is worthless if individual nations get to define it however it fits their own purposes.

Given that these actions violate international law (not to mention the fact that they violate basic moral principles, including those of the religion which George Bush claims to be guided by), shouldn’t the burden at least be on our government to demonstrate why they feel these actions are necessary? Instead, our government simply expects us to take its word for the fact that these things are necessary. But what reason has it given us to trust it in that regard?


How we treat our prisoners

The scandal at Abu Ghraib prison is well known to most Americans because, due to the photographs that were made public, our national news media were forced to cover it. But one gets the impression from the coverage this scandal has received that the actions depicted in the photographs are isolated events undertaken by individual “bad apples” who occupy the lower ranks of our military.

But the problem is much more pervasive than that, and the source of the problem goes much higher.

An excellent account of the conditions at Guantanamo Bay is provided by Captain James Yee in his book, “For God and Country”. Yee was a Muslim Chaplain at Guantanamo Bay for several months, and consequently he got to observe first hand on a daily basis how prisoners were treated there. Here is his account of Camp X-Ray, where the first prisoners were held until they were transferred to Camp Delta (where accommodations were slightly better, in that the cages were about twice as large and included beds) three months later:

I couldn’t believe I was looking at a place where humans were once held…. There were hundreds of cages…. four feet by six feet. The only protection from the blistering sun and heat was a flimsy tin roof that covered the cages…. The prisoners were made to sleep on a thin mat on the dirty ground and a plastic bucket was placed in each cell for use as a toilet…. Nothing about the scene was anything I would expect from an American prison.

As problematic as the physical environment in which the prisoners were held was the way that they were treated:

I was immediately struck by the harsh conditions in which the detainees were held. They were allowed out of their cages for fifteen minutes every three days, and only if they cooperated….

General Miller had a saying…. “The fight is on!” This was a subtle way of saying that rules regarding the treatment of detainees were relaxed…. The soldiers would get pumped up, and many came to work looking for trouble. Guards retaliated in whatever way was most convenient at the moment…. Punishment often meant physical force…. The troopers called it IRFing…. Carried out by a group of six to eight guards called the Initial Response Force…. put on riot protection gear…. Then they rushed the block, one behind the other, where the offending detainee was…. It sounded like a stampede…. drenched the prisoner with pepper spray and then opened the cell door. The others charged in and rushed the detainee…. tied the detainee’s wrists behind his back and then his ankles…. then dragged the detainee from his cell and down the corridor…. to solitary confinement.

A recent report from Amnesty International largely corroborates Yee’s accounts of the disgraceful conditions at Guantanamo and adds a lot more:

Reports from the detainees and their lawyers suggest that many have been subjected to torture or other forms of ill-treatment in Guantánamo or in other US detention centers. Some have embarked on a prolonged hunger strike, among them those who have requested not to be force-fed in order that they may be allowed to die. There have been numerous suicide attempts and fears for the physical and psychological welfare of the detainees increase as each day of indefinite detention passes.



Holding prisoners indefinitely and without charges

Our prisoners – I mean “illegal enemy combatants” – don’t even have to be charged with a crime in order to justify their indefinite imprisonment. Here is a comprehensive review article (See “Statistics section) on the subject. As of November 7th, 2005, 29% of the 505 prisoners being held there hadn’t even had a judicial review of their case, after four years of imprisonment. And after several years of imprisonment only four had even been charged with a crime. And according to another Amnesty international report:

Guantánamo has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law. If Guantánamo evokes images of Soviet repression, "ghost detainees" – or the incommunicado detention of unregistered detainees - bring back the practice of "disappearances" so popular with Latin American dictators in the past. According to U.S. official sources there could be over 100 ghost detainees held by the U.S.



Attempts by our administration to provide a legal basis for their actions

Amnesty International has pointed out the illegality of our treatment of prisoners on numerous occasions, and has called for us to shut down our illegal detention facilities. But our Justice Department lawyers have endeavored to come up with opinions that support the legality of the way we handle our prisoners, including the use of torture. Here is a description of what Alberto Mora, a whistleblower who recently worked in our Department of Justice had to say about these efforts:

Mora learned, to his horror, that the administration was engaged in high-level efforts to construct a legal rationale for torture and cruelty toward detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere…. Mora was appalled by the reasoning among Pentagon and administration lawyers who were clearly trying to carve out a policy condoning authorization of such acts.

The article is littered with phrases from Mora like "wholly inadequate analysis of the law," "serious failures of legal analysis", "extreme and virtually unlimited theory" of the President's authority as Commander-in-Chief, "profoundly in error," "a mockery of the law" and "catastrophically poor legal reasoning." And here are Mora’s reasons for becoming a whistleblower on this subject:

My mother would have killed me if I hadn't spoken up. No Hungarian after Communism, or Cuban after Castro is not aware that human rights are incompatible with cruelty.


What is the source of our practice of torturing prisoners?

As I noted above, Captain Yee described in his book how the Commander of the Guantanamo Bay detention facility, Major General Geoffrey Miller, subtly encouraged the abusive treatment of prisoners there. His efforts in this regard must have been very much appreciated by the Bush administration, since they subsequently sent him to Iraq to make recommendations on how to improve intelligence collection at Abu Ghraib prison.

Alberto Mora’s description of how our Justice Department has attempted to justify our treatment of prisoners indicates high level involvement. Here is how Amnesty International characterizes the Bush administration’s attempt to deal with this issue:

Despite the near-universal outrage generated by the photographs coming out of Abu Ghraib, and the evidence suggesting that such practices are being applied to other prisoners held by the USA in Afghanistan, Guantánamo and elsewhere, neither the US administration nor the US Congress has called for a full and independent investigation.

Instead, the US government has gone to great lengths to restrict the application of the Geneva Conventions and to “re-define” torture. It has sought to justify the use of coercive interrogation techniques, the practice of holding “ghost detainees” (people in unacknowledged incommunicado detention) and the "rendering" or handing over of prisoners to third countries known to practice torture.

And Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, Commander of the Abu Ghraib prison prior to being given the role of sacrificial lamb of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, testifying before the International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration on January 21st, 2006, in New York, said that she believed that the President himself was involved in the decision to torture prisoners. Here is her statement on the origins of torture at Abu Ghraib:

General Ricardo Sanchez (commander of coalition ground forces in Iraq) himself signed the eight-page memorandum authorizing literally a laundry list of harsher techniques in interrogations to include specific use of dogs and muzzled dogs with his specific permission. All this came after Major General Geoffrey Miller, who had been specifically selected by the Secretary of Defense to go to Guantanamo Bay and run the interrogations operation, was dispatched to Iraq by the Bush administration to work with the military intelligence personnel to teach them new and improved interrogation techniques.

And this is what she testified that General Miller said to her:

It is my opinion that you are treating the prisoners too well. At Guantanamo Bay, the prisoners know that we are in charge and they know that from the very beginning. You have to treat the prisoners like dogs. And if they think or feel any differently you have effectively lost control of the interrogation.

And finally, as Seymour Hersh describes being told by a senior U.S. Army officer in his book, “Chain of Command – The Road from 9/11 to Abu Ghraib”:

“No one in the Bush Administration would get far if he was viewed as soft, in any way, on suspected Al Qaeda terrorism.” Yet despite all this, “One consistent theme has been a lack of timely and reliable intelligence about the other side.”


How dangerous are our detainees from the war on terror?

Do the “illegal enemy combatants” that we detain indefinitely in prison under such harsh conditions pose such a grave threat to our country that we can’t even afford the risk of providing them with a trial? All the evidence that I have read on that subject suggests that the answer to that question is a resounding NO.

Chaplain Yee, in his book, commented that the more he got to know the detainees for whom he was charged with providing religious support, the more difficult it was to picture them as terrorists, or criminals of any kind. And he provided numerous details to support those conclusions. A CIA analyst, charged with investigating conditions at Guantanamo Bay, related to journalist Seymour Hersh, as described in “Chain of Command”, that over half the prisoners he saw didn’t belong there, including two elderly prisoners who were clearly suffering from dementia. Major General Antonio Taguba, charged with investigating the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, said that “A lack of proper screening meant that many innocent Iraqis were being detained – in some cases indefinitely. And Taguba added that 60% of civilian prisoners at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Similarly, the International Red Cross said that between 70 percent and 90 percent of the persons deprived of their liberty in Iraq had been arrested by mistake.

The fact that after four years of detention at Guantanamo Bay, only four (4) of hundreds of detainees had even been charged with a crime, and that almost 30% hadn’t even had a judicial review, speaks volumes about our administration’s interest in determining their guilt or innocence.


So why does Bush Co do this?

I’ve now come back to my original question.

The inhumane treatment of our detainees from our “War on terror” appears to serve little or no useful purpose. There is little or no evidence that most or even many of these prisoners even have a substantive connection with terrorism, and in any event, their abusive treatment appears to have provided little if any useful information, according to numerous knowledgeable sources. Jonathan Weiler said in the summer of 2005 that perhaps Amnesty international chose the wrong words when they referred to Guantanamo Bay as the “Gulag of our times”. Now he is re-thinking that assessment:

… certain questions have to be increasingly asked: to what lengths will the Bush administration go to stretch and mutilate language, to torture out of all meaning any prohibitions on executive authority? What will stop it from demeaning any claim the inalienable right to be free from cruelty and torture?

The only reasonable explanation that I can see for Bush Co’s inhumane treatment of prisoners is that they hope this will legitimize their “War on terror” in the eyes of the American public, with the ultimate purpose of allowing themselves to assume dictatorial powers – which they have already largely done. If anyone has a better explanation I’d like to hear it.

Some Americans accept the disgraceful and illegal treatment of our prisoners because they have bought into the lie that this is a necessary evil, conducted for our protection. Those people should be asking themselves, “If Bush Co continues to get away with this, who will be next?”

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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Right wingers salivate at the thought of torture
so easy for chickenhawks to support it.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. I don't know
Do you really think that they enjoy the idea of people being tortured? I'm sure that some do, but do you think that most of them do? Even I have a hard time believing that. But I don't have a hard time believing that Bush enjoys it.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. there would be different perspectives
The RWs around here are totally behind Bush and cheney and agree with the torture. They say it's the only way to keep terrorism down. They have no regard for Geneva conventions etc. There will be a few who are horrified but think Bush is probably doing the right thing
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. Bush simply has contempt for humans in general
I thought that was obvious.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Yep
that's it exactly
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. That's obvious to me, and to almost all DUers I believe
But I don't think it explains why he's so blatant about it. In general he makes a grand effort to hide his contempt for most people. But prisoners of war -- I mean illegal enemy combatants are another story. He feels that he can demonize them as much as he wants and get away with it in the eyes of most Americans.
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AlamoDemoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks. Bookmarked for future reference
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
4. Unconscionability
Ever wonder just how so many people within our gove and military can routinely plan the murder and torture of scores of people? I feel sort of bad if I accidentally cut someone off in traffic ..I can't imagine that people who plot mass murder to be anything short of psychotic, pathological sadists who either experience no pangs of conscience, or, if they do, can effectively turn a blind eye because of the level of chauvinistic brainwashing. It's all in keeping with the chief talking points and rhetoric of such people - "family values," "liberdy and freedumb," "god bless America," etc. The very things they do not stand for are promoted as what they do stand for.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Well, these kinds of people appear everywhere in our history books
Whereas it's difficult to imagine such evil in every day life, for one who reads a lot of history they shouldn't be too difficult to believe in.

And you hit the nail on the head when you said "The very things they do not stand for are promoted as what they do stand for". These kinds of people must at least give off the appearance of being decent, because of they actually told the truth about what they do and what they think they would make it easy for people to hate them. But people don't want to believe such things about their government, so they deny to themselves what's going on, or they just don't take the time to inform themselves.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. because he's a sick, twisted bastard?
what do I win?
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. b/c of who they are, of course

The Republican Party meaningfully has three wings/factions. Conservatives, Rightists, and, er, Moderates.

-Their Moderates need all the talk about ideals, freedom and dumbocracy and The American Way. But they hate paying for adequate amounts of any of it.

-Their Conservatives simply want to live in the Past. They'll follow anyone who promises them it's possible, reject anyone who tells them it's delusional and stupid, and throw rocks at a guy who promised them that but then betrays them. (These are the Not Geniuses.)

-The Rightists basically want to feel glorious, want to violate the rules, and want to beat up on their enemies. They bear grudges forever. Because their ego matters and the real world does not.

So the GOP has to be the party of cynically minimizing taxation and social equality to keep the Moderates. They have to reject the obvious future and create a pious mythology about the Past (e.g. the Christian Nation) and keep the willing suckers buying into its revival to please the Conservatives.

And they have to allow their sadists/haters to run loose in some corners, abuse/kill some set of people who have hurt their ego but can't fight back, be the party of militarism and cruelty, to be the party of the Rightists.

If you want to read a sorta-fiction book on how a society of, by, and for Republicans works (or, doesn't), that explains everything about them, I recommend James Jones's "From Here To Eternity".
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. That sounds about right to me
Maybe I'll read the book. I'd love to be able to understand them better.

Of course, all the talk about ideals, freedom, democracy, etc., is meant for independents and Democrats as well -- to keep us (some of us anyhow) pacified.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. So why does Bush Co do this?
I disagree with the OP, who answers that this (use of torture) must be meant to legitimize the "War on Terror" in the eyes of the American public. No, that is not it at all. The Bush Regime uses torture for the same reasons GHWB and Reagan used torture during the American Holocaust in the Central America of the eighties -- i.e., to terrorize a target population for the purpose of breaking its will toward freedom and self-determination. The idea is to create fear, apathy, and silence while the USG furthers its own self-serving agenda.

The USG is not stupid; they know very well about the ineffectiveness of torture as a means to uncover information. The history of the USG and torture, as with all regimes that deploy such means, is one of unleashed terror -- again, it's a means to instill terror into an insurgent population, to create fear and submission, to get one's way. Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are not exceptions except we've dropped the pretense of proxy. Now we do it ourselves. And why not? We have a half-century's experience teaching technique to the world's most vile right there in Ft. Benning, Georgia (SOA).

USG foreign policy is in major part about punishing those that show signs of opting out of neo-liberal arrangements that benefit our owning class (this the legacy of Nitze, Kennan, et alia). We don't invade Panama, escort a leader out of Haiti at gunpoint, mine the harbors of Nicaragua, or illegally invade Baghdad because anyone perceives them, in themselves, to be a geniune threat. It's all about crushing the example of alternate models. The capitalist says Greed is Good in one breath and whispers apathy is better in the next -- all the more easy to exploit those who have no hope for a better future!

So leveling a Falujah, setting up shop at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram, Eastern Europe, elsewhere -- think of it as a brutal public narrative, meant to be seen by the family and friends of U.S. victims. It is meant to intimidate, and it will grow more shrill (more vile) before it gets better as populations at home and abroad rise up against the USG and shout "ENOUGH!"
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. btw, Time for change, I forgot to say...
...thank you for your excellent and thought-provoking post. :)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Thank you davekriss - actually it's difficult to know the precise reasons
why the administration does the things that it does. And the reasons that you and I give are very similar in some respects. We both believe that it is done to enhance the powers of our rulers, but I suggest that the main audience is internal (for now at least), whereas you feel that it is external. Probably there are elements of both, and gratuitous cruelty, both on the part of the Bush administration, and some of the hands-on involved individuals, also probably plays a role.

But the reason why I have a problem with your hypothesis as the main motiviation for BushCo is that I believe that Bush's handlers are intelligent people, and it seems to me that if they are doing this simply to intimidate the foreign opposition, they must realize that this will (as it already has) backfire on them. If you say that their purpose is to intimidate the opposition so as to produce a violent backlash, and thus justify the war on terror, I can accept that. But to say that they are trying to intimidate the opposition into becoming passive in response to our will, it is just hard for me to believe that Bush's handlers are that dumb.

Also, although you are certainly right to bring up the fact that this country has a long history of evil deeds, I do believe that this administration has greatly exceeded what we have seen in the past.
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Ufomammut Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. No, using atomic bombs...
Against civilian populations in WW2, and East Timor spring to mind.
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. What a sad day it is, then
I think we both agree that State torture is narrative, meant for those that see or learn of the results, not for those who are tortured (the latter are just means to an end). But it is a sad, sad day if the Bush Regime is torturing human beings to somehow validate the "War on Terror" to the American public.

I suppose the narrative could go something like this, "These people, terrorists, are so dangerous that we have to place them far away from you, Mr. American Citizen, away from the Geneva Convention, from the due process of law; the times are so dangerous that we need to subject these human beings to continuous, perhaps decades-long torture, just to squeeze an iota of plot out of them, otherwise you, American Citizen, will not be safe. Vote Republican on Election Day. Have a nice day." Pretty absurd and highly immoral, but I put neither past the current Regime. However, Time for change, I'm not convinced.

While I agree that the Bush Regime is something extra special -- for example, with Bush we for the most part drop the pretense of proxy, up till now we've generally just funded, equipped, trained, and coached -- but you have to acknowledge that torture has been part of the clandestine arsenal for some time. And it is meant to destroy the community from which the tortured is snatched. For example (from Torture: State Terror vs. Democracy, by Orlando Tizon, 2002),

    Modern torture is designed to destroy the personality of the individual and by extension the community. Ultimately, it is a strategy designed to defeat democratic aspirations at the root, which makes it a tool of choice for unpopular regimes around the world.

    <snip>

    Torture as practiced today is primarily for the purpose of maintaining unpopular governments in power. "We therefore refer to torture as an instrument of power. Our research has shown that the torturers who work for governments try to break down the victims' identity, and this affects the family and the society as well." Thus the main purpose of torture is not to extract a confession but to break the individual's humanity and make an example of the victim before the community and thereby suppress all political opposition. Torture is the ultimate weapon for terrorizing and controlling the individual human being and the community. When members of a community are made powerless and lose trust in themselves and in one another, building a democratic community is rendered extremely difficult and complex. Torture then is an instrument to destroy democratic aspirations and actions, as history has clearly shown.
I completely agree with this assessment. Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman, too, are good sources for the history of how torture is used by the United States and other repressive states. You're aware, of course, about the School of the Americas, about the roles of John Negroponte and Elliot Abrams while U.S. trained fiends tortured and disappeared labor leaders, students, peasants interested in better schools and hospitals. The fact that people like Negroponte, who denied that El Mozote ever occured, and Abrams who looked the other way while Batallion 3-16 was on the loose, the fact that they and others were invited back to positions of power in this Regime told me where Bush stood with regards to use of torture before we ever heard of Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. None of this surpises me (and the fact that Negroponte is now National Intelligence Director scares me). If we, the American public, are additionally meant to be hearers of this violent narrative of torture (I still say the intended audience is back in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, etc.), it can only be the beginnings of intended serious repression here at home. Maybe we can understand a little why the Regime spends a third of a billion dollars just to keep Halliburton prepared to build detention camps on a moments notice.

Torture, in my opinion, is terrorism in microcosm. Both are public narrative, both intend to intimidate, both are dispicably immoral.

I leave you with this (apologies, I often use),

    ...And so, you say, you've learned a little
    about starvation: a child like a supper scrap
    filling with worms, many children strung
    together, as if they were cut from paper
    and all in a delicate chain. And that people
    who rescue physicists, lawyers and poets
    lie in bed at night with reports
    of mice introduced into women, of men
    whose testicles are crushed like eggs.
    That they cup their own parts
    with their bedsheets and move themselves
    slowly, imagining bracelets affixing
    their wrists to the wall where the naked
    are pinned, where the naked are tied open
    and left to the hands of those who erase
    what they touch. We are all erased
    by them, and no longer resemble decent
    men. We no longer have the hearts,
    the strength, the lives of women.
    Your problem is not your life as it is
    in America, not that your hands, as you
    tell me, are tied to do something. It is
    that you were born to an island of greed
    and grace where you have this sense
    of yourself as apart from others. It is
    not your right to feel powerless. Better
    people than you were powerless.
    You have not returned to your country,
    but to a life you never left.

    -- Carolyn Forche, Return, 1980 (about her experience in El Salvador)

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. A sad day indeed
That is something on which we both very much agree, regardless of whether my theory or yours is closer to the truth. I find this whole thing very very sad, and that is the main reason that I posted this -- because I believe that it deserves lots of attention.

And yes, I acknowledge that torture has been part of our clandestine arsenal for some time -- though my grasp of the details and the magnitude and the frequency with which this has been used by our government in the past is not all that great.

However, I do believe that there is a great and qualitative difference between the extent of its use under Bush versus the extent of its use under Clinton and Carter, for example.

Of course, the top reaches of our government don't have complete control over the extent to which these kinds of things occur -- though I am not sure exactly how much control they do have. But I do believe that Clinton and Carter did not approve of torture in general, if they approved of it at all. They might have, for example, had some vague feeling that it was used on some occasions during their administration under dire circumstances, and they may not have felt the need to interfere with that. If that is the case, I believe that there is a vast difference between that and this administration, which positively encourages torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners in general, under ALL circumstances where they can get away with it. And the President does set the tone for a great deal of what happens at the lower levels.

Maybe I'm being too kind to Clinton and Carter on this. I don't know for sure, since I don't have positive evidence one way or the other. Please tell me if you think I'm wrong about that.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
14. Torture is a "Traditional American Value".
With a long history of precedents.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I don't agree that it's an American value
Most Americans accept and even agree with the idea that it is prohibited by international law.

But many or most of them have also been taken in by Bush Co's assertion that it has to be done in order to protect us against terrorism. So out of fear they accept it. But I doubt that many would be in favor of it if they knew the purposes to which it is being put.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. Conservatives hate people who arent Conservatives
Have you ever seen one con show compassion towards the working classes? What makes you think theyd show any towards criminals?

Cons hate the working classes. They could care less whether their issues are killing the middle class . Their contempt for the masses is obvious. Just read any reicht wing site , like greenapples or fart republic.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. With regard to the working class, at least BushCo pretends to show
concern for them. Not that I give them credit for their pretensions, but I think it's worth noting.

With regard to our prisoners, he doesn't even maintain a pretension of any concern. He gets away with this because he has convinced enough people (though less and less it seems, judging from his sinking poll numbers) that our prisoners are evil terrorists -- even though the administration and its military has put almost no effort into assessing the need for these people to even be in prison, let alone suffer the abominable conditions that they are made to suffer.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. Bush does not have or appreciate self-restraint
The reason he allows - no, even insists upon - torture and human rights abuses is because that's WHO he is. He doesn't respect law, or due process, or the entire systems of checks and balances we have.

In his world, it's not possible that we could agree with invading Afghanistan, but not with invading Iraq. It's not possible to disagree with him and be a good american, in his world. He's a real danger to America, and with him setting the standard at the top, he's sent a terrible message to all in law enforcement, the prison systems, or the military. He's unleashed on the nation government goons.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. Yes, I agree that Bush is all those things
Still, I think that his puppet masters would only allow this to take place if they believed that it served their interests -- or at least that it wouldn't interfere with their interests.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. agreed
His overlords believe that the US needed to have more street cred as a bad ass, and all this is part of that. The whole thing with Gitmo and renditions is to LET the world know terrorists or anyone near them may end up in a pit from hell.
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. Because through the long life of *
he has come to the conclusion that some people are not human. Hence they do not warrant humane treatment.
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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. K&R~!
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-14-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Neo Fascisists consider Evil doers as less than human.
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sheelz Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 04:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. This horrible picture always puzzles me....
What is that red thingy laying on the ground. It looks like a bloody penis or dildo? If that is what it is is is really going to infuriate me.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Is this one of our Abu Ghraib prisoners? n/t
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
28. We Must Protect Ourselves From Our Government
Published 3/6/06

http://www.eurekareporter.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?ArticleID=9028

Dear Editor,

RE: Area residents question what Bush knew about hurricane, 3/4/2006.

During and immediately after Katrina, as we all watched in horror and disgust, there was a very clear and strong sense that we have to protect ourselves from our government. They had not only failed us, they repeatedly took proactive steps to prevent recovery and assistance from reaching those in need. For many of us, this was only a reminder of what we already knew. For others, it was a wake up call.

Katrina, as a unique weather phenomenon, was hardly the first sign that we need to protect ourselves from our government. We should know this from the way global warming and peak oil are ignored. From the threat of jail without charges or access to an attorney. Because peace organizations are infiltrated and spied upon, and protests are forced into “free speech zones.” In the name of the U.S., torture is conducted at secret prisons. Warrantless wiretapping. 9/11.

If we are supposed to fear terrorism, let us clearly identify it. Those who hate our freedoms are those who sign legislation to restrict or cancel them. Those who inflict terror are those who have repeatedly ignored warnings before failing to protect us. The recently released videotape did not “allegedly” show Bush was warned. It showed Bush being warned and gave lie to his absurd claim that no one could have imagined the levees failing. Just like no one could have imagined planes flying into buildings while training exercises were being conducted on that exact scenario.

Fascism is a formula, a recognizable pattern that gradually engulfs a society. It is so blatant that it can’t be seen only when the media distorts reality by maintaining illusions of normalcy and by perpetuating the myths of democracy, capitalism, free speech, free markets and free press.

We do not consent. Support the truth.

Dave Berman
Eureka
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Great letter!
I'm much more afraid of my own government than I am of any foreign threat.
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
29. Dry drunks have contempt for everthing, including themselves EOM
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-15-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
32. Just another characteristic of being Evil.
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