More on Duke Lacrosse Rape Case

[Jon8503]

From: Rachels Tavern: http://rachelstavern.com/blog_comment.asp?bi=317&m=3&y=2006&d=1&s=

I am making it my personal mission to get the word out this terrible story. 46 members of the Duke Lacrosse team are taking DNA tests after some of the players were accused of gang raping a woman who they invited to be a dancer at a party. I also don't want people to think abou this story as a gender issue, but as incident that reveals how racism, sexism, and classism intersected to make this young woman particularly vulnerable to a sexual assault. If you read this report from ABC News you will hear very little about race. However, if you this story you get a better idea of what most likely went on. A group of young wealthy White men felt that it was ok to assault this woman, raping her and yelling racial slurs at her. This should be blowing up in the blogosphere folks. This is also one of those "if this had happen to a White woman would we have already heard about it" stories.

Here's what the local paper said happened,

The woman who says she was raped last week by three members of the Duke University lacrosse team thought she would be dancing for five men at a bachelor party, she said Friday. But when she arrived that night, she found herself surrounded by more than 40.
Just moments after she and another exotic dancer started to perform, she said, men in the house started barking racial slurs. The two women, both black, stopped dancing.

"We started to cry," she said. "We were so scared."

The women subsequently left the party, but decided to come back after one of the men apologized. When the women went back into the party, "Two males then pulled the victim into a bathroom as three men sexually assaulted her for an approximate 30-minute time period, according to the warrant," according to the student newspaper

The woman was able to get away and call the police, and she was subsequently admitted to the hosptial. When the police came to the house to investiagte, the men refused to cooperate, and now the police are testing 46 out of 47 of the men on the team ( I saw one report saying that the victim's cell phone, purse, and an acrylic fingernail were found at the house when they finally got in.). I understand that these young men are legally innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence in this case seems very strong.

On a more positive note, the student paper is reporting that about 250 students and community members have been protesting for 3 days outside of the house where the incident happened. It seems that the house has receive complaints from neighbors in the past.

The young woman is a student at North Carolina Central University (a historically Black University), and she is the mother of two. She was working for the escort service as a dancer to support her family and pay for college.

The race/class/gender dynamics of this whole case are really scary, and they reveal a great deal about out power structure inthis country. This young woman ended up in the vulnerable position of being a sex worker because she was trying to better her family and her education. The two young women left the party after the racial slurs began and they feared for their safety, but I can't help wondering if they were thinking about how they were going to pay their bills or feed their kids when they went back in, something most of these young men don't even have to think about. I wonder if these guys were thinking about how much power they had over this young women when they yelled racist slurs and when they physically and sexually assault this women? I also wonder if those guys who remained silent were more concerned about protecting their buddies than stopping this terrible assault. How much do they think this woman's life is worth?

One of the people quoted in the student paper said that the school spends so much time protecting students from the people in the community, but in this case cleary shows how the people in the community also need to be protected from the students.

I encourage people to put up the story on their blogs, and put pressure on the University to investigate the team and level some sort of disciplinary actions, and of course this legal system also needs to do its part to put these men behind bars. I think one way people in the blogosphere may be able to help, in addition to agitating for the full force of the law to come down on these men, is by setting up some sort of fund to help this young woman pay for college (if anybody knows how this can be done). (Thanks to Baft Rage for the heads up on this.)

http://rachelstavern.com/blog_comment.asp?bi=317&m=3&y=2006&d=1&s=

[fasttense]

1. I've been following this closely.

My daughter has her heart set on attending Duke. I'm hoping they will not accept her so I wont have to worry about her. Though the Dean wouldn't let the team play, which is a good sign and the protest outside where the rape took place is another good sign. But the three other colleges, who have accepted my daughter, don't have any big scandals like this. Sigh.... I hope she doesn't get in.

[supernova]

5. I live near Duke

only about 3 miles from campus, and it's somewhere in the middle as far as campus security goes. Duke is neither the worst nor the best for security. To be fair, this kind of incident could have happened on any campus.

Young guys + alcohol = monumental stupidity and escalating aggression.

I go to campus frequently to walk or to attend cultural events, some of which are at night. I stick to well-lit paths and always keep my wits about me and I never walk alone. Also, you can call campus security for an escort to your car or dorm late at night. So there are alternatives.

Yes, this is a tragic incident in many ways, not the least of which is the racial aspect, which I'm sure will be discussed and debated thoroughly in the coming months. Even if those guys turn out "innocent" from the court's POV, they will be pretty much trashed in the community court of opinion.

This young woman and her friend are doing the right thing and I hope they continue to find a way to make their lives better. *Sigh* One step forward, two steps back.

edit: Spelling

[Pachamama]

8. Don't judge Duke just yet....see how they handle this first...

I have a lot of friends who went there and got great educations and great experiences and memories....if your daughter wants to go there and have her heart set on it, there is no reason if she got in that she couldn't have the same great experience and education my friends got. Sadly, while under-reported in general, rape and sexual assaults occur throughout our society and they happen on College campuses, even the hallowed halls of the Ivy League schools. Schools in general make all efforts to make it safe for their students, but even small colleges in rural areas can have the same problems. If your daughter gets in to Duke, let Duke know how you feel about this incident and your concerns. This puts further pressure on them to make sure that they make an extra effort for providing student safety and a zero tolerance policy of sexual and racial crimes.

Wait and see how Duke handles this...they have to be careful until the investigation has been completed and I think they did the right thing by canceling the Lacrosse team's season. Personally, once charges has been made or that it is clear what the involvement is of the various team members, even of those that have refused to give info, even if they didn't commit the crime of rape or "cheering", "watching" etc., Duke should suspend these students...period...

[Jon8503]

103. Fasttense, I posted this but it was not a post against Duke. It is a grea

school and you daughter would get a great education. These are a few of many if they are guilty. I think it does bring out problems between the University and the community surrounding it. However, you know your daughter and you know whereever she goes, she will take the values she learned from her parents and she will choose her friends carefully no matter where she is and will I am sure, use good judgment at all times.

I am just saying we can't judge the entire university population. However, the leaders certainly need to address these situations and it appears needs to work on community relations.

Don't worry, she will make the right choice for her and you.

[entanglement]

2. I posted a thread about it in LBN last night

[Katherine Brengle]

3. This is disgusting --

I never watch tv news, but I happened to turn on the television this morning just as this story was coming on on the Today Show.

I applaud the protestors--if this kind of protest happened more often, rapists would be much more likely to be held accountable for their heinous crimes.

Good post, k&r.

[Pachamama]

4. This story makes my blood boil on so many levels...these members of the

Duke Lacrosse Team have brought shame on their school, the community, the sport of Lacrosse and worst of all the cover-up of a horrendous act of violence and a "racial" hate crime as far as I'm concerned.

I played College Women's Lacrosse at an Ivy League Team and am well aware of NCAA team sports, the mentality (especially amongst the male teams) and also the attitude's surrounding them from the College Athletic Dept's.

I don't know all the facts around this case, but what is known is just disgusting and makes me sick. I am glad that Duke suspended the entire Lacrosse Team and season. I hope that each and every one of them, even those who are cleared of the actual rape itself, are all prosecuted, either for aiding and abetting the crime of rape and racial attack, cover-up of a crime, lying to police and whatever other charges can be brought against them.

Personally, I think they should then all be suspended from Duke. Sure, there might have been several members who committed the actual rape, but to me, the fact that the entire team, even members who might not have seen or been a part of the rape or "cheering" section, would not cooperate and give information of what they know, makes them as guilty of the crime of rape itself.

Its about time that a message also gets sent out to all students, particularly male athletes on College Campuses, that there is a zero tolerance policy and maybe in the future, a crime like this won't be able to be perpetrated because someone will prevent the crime, stop the crime and/or report the crime.

I can't imagine the horror this woman went through. :cry:

[itzamirakul]

9. I don't think we have to worry about any of the young men being

indicted or serving any time for this attack because more than likely their fathers are major supporters of the school and major defense attorneys will conspire to make the young women into criminals.

[supernova]

11. Which was even more important

that these young women get their side of the story out first.

I'm sure that will be tried, trashing the victim's repution is a road-tested method. But we'll have to wait and see how well it actually works this time.

[Katherine Brengle]

20. This is already happening --

Every bit of news I have seen about this makes a clear point both of telling us that the woman works for "an escort service" and that she has two children (innocuous enough, until it is stuck into the same sentence with "works for an escort service")...

It will get a lot worse for her in the media, and that's as bad as the crime itself...

I agree with those who said that the entire team deserves to be suspended from Duke until this is "resolved" and that they should ALL be tried, whether it be for the actual rape, or for their lack of cooperation with the police and attempts to cover up the crime.

[elehhhhna]

23. FINE> Let's shine some light on cuts to student grants & loans and how

stripping has become the easiest way for many young women to pay for an education.

DISGUSTING.

[LostinVA]

28. Do they also call her "college student"? Because in NC they are

Because she is. Per my mom -- the local news is coming down on the woman's side... or, rather, are giving TRUTHFUL and UNBIASED reporting... what a concept!!!

[Katherine Brengle]

49. All I was saying is...

most people will hear the words "escort service" and "dancer" and assume that either she wasn't really raped or that she was "asking for it."

It's a tough call--yes, it may be factual, but it isn't exactly laying out a fair playing field for her.

[LostinVA]

56. No, KB... I was just skiing if asking national news was mentioning this

At least the NC media IS.

[Katherine Brengle]

59. OH! As far as I know, yeah.

I am almost 100% sure I heard that on the Today Show or something this morning... but I could be wrong--it's been a looooong day.

We'll see...

[adriennui]

12. not every person who attends duke is a millionaire

duke is big on financial assistance and scholarships. we shouldn't stereotype ANY group of people.

[LostinVA]

17. I would agree, except it's the Lacrosse team

As someone said on the other thread, Lacrosse isn't played in the hood.... it's almost always played at either prep schools or suburban white schools. And, everybody I knew who went to Duke (several) came from pretty wealthy homes... like the kids at UVA and some other type schools. It technically is a diverse population, but I doubt these boys are on financial scholarship... *sigh*

I really feel sorry for the women... especially the one lady working as a stripper to put herself through NCCU and make the lives of her kids better... SHE should be the one going to Duke, all expenses paid.

[formernaderite]

25. the lacrosse players are always the most notorious "bad boys"

in the suburbs. I'm not at all surprised by this event. I hate labeling a whole sport as one comprised of juvenile delinquents...but I have to say, from my own experience as a father of sons and daughters, my youngest just finishing high school....the lacross boys are really a piece of work.

[LostinVA]

26. They were at my high school, too... and that was 1978-82

They were probably worse than everyone else put together. The best male team members were the guys on our track team... I was on the girl's track team, and can say they were overall the nicest guys -- most pretty good students, too.

But the Lacrosse guys? OMG.

[Left Is Write]

My daughter played lacrosse her junior and senior years...

and her whole senior year she dated a boy who played lacrosse, football, and ran track. I thought he was the nicest kid I had ever met, and I was sorry when they broke up.

Unfortunately, she told me a few stories after the fact that have colored my view of him a little differently. What she told me did seem to play out the stereotype of the wealthy, privileged boy.

I'm torn on my feelings. I hate to condemn an entire sport based on the actions of a few, but my own experiences in college with certain members of the football team definitely biased me against college football players for a very long time.

[Pachamama]

14. I got to disagree with you there...

Having attended an Ivy League school, I can first of all say that not all students who attend a school are the kids of "major supporters of the school". Many, if not most that attended my school, and this is true of most private Universities these days are on either a scholarship of some kind or major financial aid. Don't presume that every one of these boys on the lacrosse team comes from some super wealthy prominent family. There might be some, but certainly not all. Also, while these young men will try to get the best defense they can (who wouldn't?) the defense attorneys will be very careful to attack the victim. That won't go over to well in the community or the court room. More likely, the defense attorneys for the men that are found innoncent of the actual rape itself, will try to claim that they were victims of being at the wrong place at the wrong time and unless some of these men testify against eachother, then it will be harder to prove.

One thing going against these men is that typically, the more people involved or who were witnesses to a crime, the harder it is to coverup. My guess is that some of the team members will eventually "sing" in order to clear their names and protect their asses and thus, the truth will come out.

[VelmaD]

40. a gender hate crime as well

I've been thinking about this for a while now and I don't understand why we don't consider rape a hate crime. The victims are picked becuause of their gender. If someone waited outside a bar looking for a black man to beat up...that's a hate crime. If they hangout outside a bar looking for a gay person to beat up...that's a hate crime. If they hangout outside a bar looking for a woman to beat up and sexually assault...shouldn't that be a hate crime too?

[LostinVA]

68. I don't disagree with you -- I've debated this with friends before

[dogday]

6. I say hang the offenders by their gonads

that should make them think twice....

[madokie]

16. Yea, like slit their bag and stick their leg through it.

[Jack from Charlotte]

38. Before they're charged and tried? *

*

[LostinVA]

77. We're not on the jury, this is a public discussion board, we're discussing

You've been rather vehement on this thread... Blue Devil?

[KamaAina]

98. But you'd need some really, really fine thread to do that

these kinds of "men" tend to have even smaller parts than your basic middle-aged guy with a rug, a gold chain and his shirt open to his navel :evilgrin:

[Ignacio Upton]

7. Another reason to dislike Duke

other than the fact that they are total snobs when it comes to basketball. I read a USA Today article about this yesterday, and I get the idea that the campus doesn't get along well with the city of Durham. Unfortunately, I probably sound like I'm painting Duke students with a broad brush, so I apologize if anyone feels that I am.

[supernova]

10. The relationship can be contentious at times

The primary reason being that the city itself is not wealthy, while Duke is and mostly gets the $$ to do whatever it wants. But Duke does contribute in other ways like charity care through the hospital. It's been an ongoing argument for as long as anyone can remember.

[LostinVA]

19. There has always been alot of anti "townie" feelings at Duke

I have friends who went there, and a friend who works there, as well as having had college profs who went there. It's very much a "we need to eb protected from Durham." Someone on here said something about Durham having million-dollar homes. Yup, they do -- old money, new RTP money... but, overall, it's a poorer than average NC city, with a large minority population. There's always been more than a bit of friction.

And, Duke may be diverse now, but that is a very recent advent. It has historically been more Southern, rich white boy than UVA or Emory...

[LiberalPartisan]

58. Back in the 80s

Duke was branded a 'Hot' school. I have no idea why. Thier academics are satisfactory but nothing stellar. Davidson, also in North Carolina is a far superior school academically. It is PR which made Duke and bad PR will very likely tarnish it. Remember the case where the Duke Hospital implanted a heart with the wrong tissue type in the patient? Anyhow, ever since Duke became the trendy school it's been hard to respect it as an institution of higher learning.

[LostinVA]

74. I Read a book by an ex-admissions official who said that exact thing

That UVA, Chapel Hill, and Emory were MUCH better schools, if one wanted an "elite" Southern school. And, from personal experience, just in NC both Davidson and Guilford Colleges are way better academically. And, I'd arther live in Davidson, Greensboro, Chapel Hill, etc. than Durham.

[Ignacio Upton]

99. I'm not from NC and have never attended college there

But I've always liked UNC-Chapel Hill better than Duke. Both in sports and in terms of setting (Chapel Hill sounds like a cool college town.)

[LostinVA]

101. It is a cool college town -- like Charlottesville, how Elon used to be, et

GO HEELS!!!

(I didn't go to Carolina, btw...)

[SheepyMcSheepster]

13. This is a terrible story

and your right, there hasn't been much coverage of it.

[Ignacio Upton]

15. Do you think that Rita and Gretta will take time to cover a BLACK girl?

Especially a stripper? We can't cover 'dem uppity negroes who complain.:sarcasm:

[LisaL]

18. I am pretty sure she would find time to cover this one.

[ms liberty]

35. Raspy Rita's been all over it...

I've been following this story because my husband's grandparents once lived practically next door to this house; when it first appeared on the news both my husband and his mother recognized the house immediately. My husband's family have been in that house, as neighbors to the family who (once) lived there. We knew it was a rental house now, and that it was probably being rented by students - after all it's right across the street from the east campus, duh.

Raspy Rita is playing it for all it's worth...it's become the new variation on the missing white girl sensationalism-ratings-getter.

I have no idea what the truth is, there are not enough facts in public evidence for me to make that kind of decision. Whoever is guilty deserves incarceration, if the allegations are found to be true.

[Radio_Guy]

21. 20 & 15

20 years no parole for those that did it, 15 years no parole for those who stood by and let it happen. 43 idiots let 3 rapists do their thing? No one tried to stop them? Sickening.

[LostinVA]

22. I agree with that as a minimum

[Iris]

54. I like the way you think, Radio_Guy

:7

[timber84]

24. What the hell ever happened to INNOCENT UNTIL PR OVEN

GUILTY? Looks like you already tried and convicted the guys. By the way the guys who made it on the team are not "young wealthy guys" most are on that team due to athletic scholarships and are not from Durham. My children play lacrosse and am offended by anyone who believes it is a sport for the white elite. We are not rich by any means.

[LostinVA]

29. Two things

1.) I'm not on the jury or in the prospective pool,
2.) In this case, saying they are innocent until proven guilty means saying the woman is lying until it's proven she's being truthful. I'm not taking sides, just going with what's out there, which I can do, because of 1.)

[Radio_Guy]

30. Indeed, we are not in the jury pool

And this is a public message board. We are allowed to post our opinions freely. I plan to do so while I am stil allowed by law.

[Jack from Charlotte]

37. What are you bitching about? Isn't law enforcement proceeding with...

an investigation? Do you want action taken bef0ore the investigation is complete?

What?

Regarding being protected on campus from the students.... You waznt the school to go off campus and provide protection every time someone goes to a students off campus resident. How absurd.

[LostinVA]

75. He isn't "bitching" about anything, he's responding to the other poster

What are you talking about re: off campus protection? Who said that?

And, there's no reason for hostility. Nobody has slammed you or personally attacked you.

[NaturalHigh]

31. So far, all of the players are saying that they did not...

even have sex with the woman. That's a pretty strange stance if they're actually guilty of raping her and DNA samples have been taken.

From the Washington Post

The team captains issued a statement Tuesday expressing regret for the decision to hire the strippers and serve alcohol at the party. But they denied the criminal allegations and said that "the team has cooperated with the police in their investigation. We have provided authorities with DNA samples. The understanding is that the results of the DNA testing will be available sometime next week. The DNA results will demonstrate that these allegations are completely false."

In my opinion, if these guys aren't worried about the DNA results, there is more to this story.

[LostinVA]

32. Why is that a strange stance? Whoever says they're guilty?

That very, very rarely happens -- Mary Winkler is a rarity. And, in sexual assault cases? Almost zero.

What "more" is there to the story? Oh, you mean like that old skanky black stripper is a lying ho, trying to cause trouble for a bunch of rich white boys... yup, guess she changed her mind after thinking the boys would pay extra for a taste of some nice dark meat... you know what those women are like...

Give me a break. Whatever.

[timber84]

33. Your stereotyping of the situation is what is strange.

IMHO no judgement should be made either way until more facts come out. The lacrosse teams silence is suspicious as is the young women's seeking out the newspaper to tell her story.

[LostinVA]

81. My, my let's slag the victim -- I believe the defense attorney and the DA

beat the players to the papers -- very smart. I knew some of you would eb one here saying something about the victim... because, no matter who did it, she was raped in that house that night. NO WAY the DA would go ahead with this if there wasn't lots and lots of physical evidence. Go ahead, I'm waiting for the rough sex comments to start hitting this thread any minute.

I'm not stereotyping anything, and I'm not strange, nor my POV. Nice way to debate and discuss: throw labels of strangeness. Whatever. The rape threads always pull y'all in....

Oh strangestrangestrangestrange... whatever. I've read your posts before, I know what game you're playing.

[timber84]

88. like what?

what posts are you referring to?

[FredScuttle]

87. "Seeking out the newspaper"

you can look below so I don't have waste time and space calling this bullshit all over again

[Neil Lisst]

141. Innocent until proven guilty? That's a quaint idea.

I'm afraid there are some who don't care for it, but such is always the case.

[AngryAmish]

27. Duke has never lost ther entebellum attitude

Dukies would be quite happy with life before the civil war. The best part is to hear their protestations of thoughts of equality - oh, not me, when it is a very bigoted organization. This is exhibit 1,236,841.

[peaches2003]

96. HUH?

You obviously don't know a damn thing that you are talking about and absolutely nothing about Duke. Actually your ignorance in posting this at all is amazing. Duke is not a 'southern' tradition university and never has been. Founded in the 20s and from the beginning over 50% of the student body and a greater % than that of the faculty has been from the North. It has NO southern tradition at all and most certainly is not 'antebellum'.

Duke has the most racially and culturally diverse student body of any school in the south and is always ranked in the top 5 universities in the country. Believe me the alumni (of which I am one), faculty, students and Administration are more furious than anyone else on this board! No one is going to allow these criminals to ruin Duke's reputation and the right thing will be done.

[KamaAina]

102. About a third of these Duke lacrosse players are from Long Island

I guess they must all be from the South Shore :sarcasm:

[timber84]

104. And by reading most of these post I guess all young men who play

lacrosse and hail from there are all scumbag rapists :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jon8503]

36. Raleigh Durham News & Observer reports :

The Raleigh Durham News & Observer reports that in the past three years, about a third of the members of the Duke lacrosse team, under investigation in a reported gang rape, have been charged with misdemeanors stemming from drunken and disruptive behavior, court records show.

Of the team's 47 members, 15 faced charges including underage alcohol possession, having open containers of alcohol, loud noise and public urination.

Most of those charges were resolved in deals with prosecutors that allowed the players to escape criminal convictions.

NBC-17 also discovered an instance in which a Duke student's debit card was stolen and used to purchase $100 in food.

"No wonder Durham hates us," one student said as she reviewed a stack of citations involving lacrosse team players.

"From the looks of that, it looks like they don't really take their season as seriously as they should in terms of staying out of trouble," student Chris Destasio said.

[Beaverhausen]

41. Oh, now there's a fine group of young men.

:eyes:

[timber84]

43. I wonder how many college students have been convicted

of misdemeanors while attending school, seems like they are no different than other college students.

[Beaverhausen]

46. I went to college and I wasn't - nor were any of my friends

then again, we weren't in a fraternity/sorority. We partied in our dorms/apartments.

How many do you know of?

[timber84]

48. Honey I can't tell you how many times police showed up

at parties and citing people for underage drinking and public drunkeness.

[dsc]

62. Newsflash

it is no less illegal for you to drink underage in your house than outside of it. You are no less a criminal than those on the team who only had underage alcohol convictions. The difference is you weren't caught.

[Beaverhausen]

76. Yes we weren't caught

I was responding to a poster who said most college students get charged with misdemeanors.

[dsc]

114. And again

the only reason either of us weren't was that we didn't get caught.

[Jack from Charlotte]

50. Underaged drinking? The horror. This is proof there are rapist.....

running around campus. Duke should expell all students for underage drinking. Drinking under age 21 leads to worse crimes, afterall.

[Neil Lisst]

142. almost a third! OMG! public drinking!

[Bake]

39. Obvious that SOMEBODY'S lying.

As the cops say they have DNA from three men (if I recall from the newscast last night) and that the vctim's condition was consistent with having been raped.

But EVERYBODY else in the house says "I didn't see a thing" and "no sex going on."

Somebody's lying. The DNA tests will tell the truth.

As if I needed another excuse to hate Duke!

Bake

[Jersey Devil]

42. young guys + alcohol + strippers = trouble

"This young woman ended up in the vulnerable position of being a sex worker because she was trying to better her family and her education." - Give me a break.

Of course once a woman says "no", whether she is a stripper or not, then it's rape. But that they were strippers should at least give rise to some pause before declaring the students guilty and hanging them without due process.

That said, everyone should calm down until the DNA tests are completed. If the charges are true DNA tests will prove it. If there is no matching DNA from all the athletes (my understanding is that ALL gave samples) then it was a lie and they are getting a bad rap.

Did any of you ever attend a party with strippers? I did in my younger days and every single time they were looking to make additional money by prostituting themselves on the side (which I passed on). For all we know it was the guys who said "no" in this case and pissed off the girls.

What happened to the presumption of innocense? It does not exist at DU?

[FredScuttle]

44. "that they were strippers should at least give rise to some pause "??

What pause are you talking about exactly? The accusations of rape and sodomy are somehow mitigated because you went to a party where some strippers prostituted themselves? Are you fucking serious?

BTW, the DA believes this poor woman was raped, going by the physical evidence at hand.

[timber84]

47. I question it because of she went immediately to the newspaper.

Not the typical response of a rape victim is it?

[Mandate My Ass]

52. There is no "typical" rape response

Everybody responds differently. There is nothing is normal about being raped so no response is atypical.

There was a serial rapist here in Philly who preyed on women for months and finally killed a Wharton student because many cops didn't believe the previous victims. They said "she didn't act like she had been raped." One woman wsa so traumatized she moved from Philly and when it turned out she had been raped by the same MO as the others, she refused to cooperate because she said it was worse not being believed than the rape itself. DNA proved she had been raped by the same guy who murdered Shannon Schieber.

One woman who woke up bound to her bed and being raped with a pillow over her face was told "you'll probably remember your boyfriend did it in the morning." Some complained that even when they were believed the questioning consisted of asking them which bars they hung out in and asking if they were in the habit of picking up men for casual sex.

[Beaverhausen]

53. Went to the newspaper?

Do you have a link for that information?

[timber84]

64. read it for yourself:

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/421799.html

[FredScuttle]

67. Yeah I read it

It refutes your bullshit claim:

Dancer gives details of ordeal
Published: Mar 25, 2006 12:30 AM

"The accuser spoke Friday, struggling not to cry as she recounted the events of the early hours of March 14 at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd., next to Duke's East Campus." (emphasis mine)

[timber84]

71. how does it refute it she spoke with the newspaper?

[FredScuttle]

73. Let me repeat your claim from post #51

"I question it because of she went immediately to the newspaper.

Two weeks is "immediately"? What, you work for the Postal Service?

[timber84]

79. ok i'll take immedaitely back I still find it odd that she went to the

newspaper.So my bullshit claim as you put it is not she did go the newspaper.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Katherine Brengle]

55. The "typical response" of a rape victim in this country is to...

take a scalding hot shower and never tell anyone what happened.

Get real.

[LostinVA]

90. You are 100% right... of the women I know who who raped

Only one reported it, and it was a date rape... in the early 80's when such a thing didn't "exist." After her name Boeing dragged through the mud, she dropped it....

[Catherine Vincent]

57. The article doesn't say that.

"The woman was able to get away and call the police, and she was subsequently admitted to the hosptial."

[elehhhhna]

60. Uh, she went to the hospital & police.

[timber84]

66. then the newspaper

[Lars39]

72. She consented to an interview.

That does not mean that she "went to them".

[LostinVA]

93. Her attorney probably set it up, with the okay (and maybe even

cooperation) of the DA's office.

Newspapers report. This is an explosive issue in the RTP area.

[timber84]

97. I can't imagine an attorney advising either side to do that.

[Beaverhausen]

113. If she wanted to get her side of the story out, of course she would

I imagine she was being slimed by the boy's attorneys in the press and wanted to tell her story.

[timber84]

115. iI have not seen one bad thing reported about htis woman. i also have not

seen any statements by anyone other than the DA, the woman and the pres of the univ.

[Beaverhausen]

127. Well I'm not in that area so I have to trust you on that

But its highly unusual...defense attorneys love to "blame the victim" and smear them in the press to try and scare them off.

[timber84]

129. Live in NC and has been on this news and in the papers daily. The team has

been mum except to consent to the DNA swabs.

[Beaverhausen]

80. She went to the newspaper? or a reporter found her?

[FredScuttle]

61. So, do you have a response to your ridiculous claim?

or are you going to stay silent as should anyone who types something as asinine as you just did?

[timber84]

65. check out post 90

[FredScuttle]

69. I did and responded

you going to float that bullshit claim again?

[LostinVA]

89. She's a single mom supporting her kids and putting her way through

college... and she is also a stripper. Strippers are as moral as anyone else, sorry. More moral than many other people in more "honorable" professions...

on edit: Dude, I have you on Ignore -- I can't read the shit you're posting.... go and play with someone else.

[timber84]

94. So because she is a stripper who's trying to earn a living and support her

two kids, does that mean she is more believable then anyone else? My point is that more info needs to come in on this before we convict people on this board. Is it likely that there was a crime, yes. However, you never know these days. I'll hold off my judgement until more evidence is realeased.

[Jersey Devil]

91. Yes - I am a skeptic. I examine the facts closely and do not

jump to conclusions based on mere accusations.

I was a prosecutor and a defense attorney and have seen cases where the alleged victims admitted on the stand that the charges were false on several occasions.

The forensic evidence will tell whether there was sex or not with the team members since all have apparently submitted to DNA tests. If they come back with no match then either the entire story is a lie or someone other than the team members committed the rapes.

If the tests come back with a match(es), then normally question would be whether the sex was consensual or not. Now that may not be the case in this particular matter since I understand that all the team members denied that anyone had sex (though we really don't know if they all answered questions) so the DNA may very well decide the case. However, if the defendants say that the sex was consensual, then the fact that they were strippers will, imo, be relevant and so will any testimony about supposed prostitution.

[Neil Lisst]

111. Thank you for those sound and sane comments on the topic.

She may have been raped, but she may not have been.

I find the phone call to 911 to be suspicious, and it contains several outright story conflicts within it.

There's plenty of time to have a hanging after there's a trial.

[timber84]

112. do you have a link to the transcript of the 911 call?

[Neil Lisst]

120. no, sorry I don't

but I understand it's a couple of minutes long

[timber84]

122. what did it consist of if you can remember

[timber84]

45. My thought also but apparently not in this case.

We have posters here who despise Duke and some who think lacrosse players as a whole are "bad boys" in general. There is a lot of prejudging and stereotyping going on in this thread.

[FredScuttle]

70. We also have posters

who think they can post bullshit claims and won't get called on it.

[timber84]

83. You know what Fred I don't know what your problem is but a personal attack

on me is not warranted. Why don't you try to disagree with people without insulting them.

[FredScuttle]

84. OK, I'll stop when you stop posting bullshit claims about rape victims

n/t

[timber84]

85. the only thing I posted that was incorrect was one word what else have I

posted that is bullshit?

[FredScuttle]

105. As if

It's not a simple matter of "one word"....you had a clear intent in claiming she "immediately" went to the newspaper because you'd like to discredit her story and, when the facts didn't work out so conveniently, you'd like to run from this "little boo-boo". Well, I'm not going to let you because it's a bullshit claim and you had bullshit motivations.

And your line, "Is this the typical response for a rape victim"? Your mother should have slapped the taste out of your mouth for you to even have the thought of typing something like that. Tell you what...you go out and get gang-raped, sodomized and strangled by three men twice the size of you and let's see how typical your response is.

[LostinVA]

107. Take him to the woodshed, Fred! You go, boy!

My, if I wasn't a woman-loving woman... hehehehehe

[timber84]

110. i am not a man

[FredScuttle]

116. I agree

You're not a man.

[timber84]

119. wow we agree on something here tonite, a miracle

[timber84]

108. well i hope you are never the victim of a false accusation that ruins your

reputation.

[FredScuttle]

117. I doubt that....I lead a good moral life

I don't go around casting false accusations on rape victims, so I figure karma will be kind to me.

[timber84]

121. i have made no accusation against her, that is where you are wrong

i merely gave ny opinion that I am not convinced in anyones guilt or innocence yet

[FredScuttle]

123. Need I remind you?

"I question it because of she went immediately to the newspaper."

Yeah, sure....you aren't convinced about anyone's motives or credibility yet.

[Beaverhausen]

125. NICE!!!

[Neil Lisst]

139. You're correct.

We will see where the evidence leads. Anyone can make an accusation.

[Katherine Brengle]

51. "presumption of innocence" vs. "blaming the victim"

It's a really tough situation.

[Neil Lisst]

143. In answer to your question, NO

No, the presumption of innocence is never going to be granted by a good percentage of DUers because the man is always guilty when a woman accuses him. Isn't that painfully obvious by the responses on this thread?

[dsc]

63. The coverage down here (NC) has been very anti the team

Certainly it is likely someone or some people did something to this woman. I find it beyond hard to believe that all of the team is guilty. I would imagine that at least a few had either not attended at all or left well before the incident occured. DNA will work its magic and some people will likely be going to jail.

[LostinVA]

95. That's what my mom (in NC) has said, too...

[cantstandbush]

106. It's probably more anit-team BECAUSE the women were NOT white.

I am very familiar with the mentality in NC. Half my relatives live there.

[mdmc]

78. Duke lacrosse = circle jerks

[DURHAM D]

82. Duke University will work with the team to cover up this matter.

Duke University owns the house where the incident took place. As their landlord the University is responsible for what goes on there. They rented the house to three team members and then evicted them immediately after the incident.

All the boys are lawyered up - probably paid for by Duke.

[LostinVA]

100. *gasp* I hadn't heard that about the house!

That puts things in an even worse light... oh boyy...

And, these little tools should be made to stop practicing...

[peaches2003]

109. Wrong

That's the very last thing the Administration will do. Duke wants to put as many miles between the University and these 'boys' as they can. Duke is worried about reputation, alumni, donations and grants, faculty, and a million other things, but the lawyering up or defending the lacrosse team is not even a possibility. Their parents have lawyered them up, you can be sure, and I guess any parent would.

[DURHAM D]

118. Wrong back. eom

[LostinVA]

92. Thanks to the real men on here tonight who aren't letting the

little men get away with their nasty games... I appreciate it. It's nice to have your backup, guys!

[FredScuttle]

124. Nothing makes me angrier than blaming the victim

n/t

[Neil Lisst]

144. but we don't know yet who the victim is until the facts are in

It may be the accused, not the accuser.

Time will tell.

[FredScuttle]

149. You still here?

Aren't you late for your meeting with the Moonies to discuss how Kobe was set up?

[lukasahero]

132. Seconded.

Many of us appreciate it tremendously. I thought the days of asking what she was wearing were a thing of the past. Seems the question has changed but the implication remains - she's a lying whore who deserved (even wanted) what she got. I'm disgusted.

But I am also overwhelmed by the strength of those here fighting. I don't have it in me. But I am so proud of those of you who do. Thank you.

[Jersey Devil]

126. Something else strange about this case

and this doesn't have anything to do with the team or the victim.

Why was there no security (bouncers) for the dancers? I was a member of a club years back that once a year used to have what they called "steamboat" dinners followed by a strip act by 2 or 3 strippers.
I attended a few of them and remember clearly that when these women arrived they did not come alone but were accompanied by a couple of big, burly men who made it very clear they were there as security for the women.

According to reply #90 and the news story linked there, the accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week and this was the first time they (both women) had danced for a group.

What's strange to me is that an escort service would not supply bouncers for such an event, particularly if it was the first time for the employees. Anyone else who has ever attended such events, chime in. Am I wrong? Aren't there always bouncers?

[DURHAM D]

128. The women were told it was a bachelor party and only 4-5 guys

would be in attendance.

[Jersey Devil]

130. Hmm, missed that

I guess that would explain it. Still (and I am not looking for someone to blame rather than those who may have committed the crimes) it seems an awfully dangerous job to send a couple of rookies on without some support.

[FredScuttle]

136. I'll be sure to write a scathing letter to the Better Business Bureau

I still take issue with your comment above about their "profession" giving reason to pause. It wouldn't matter if they were lying on the bed spread-eagled. If the woman says no, then anything after that is rape. In this situation with 30 drunk lacrosse players and two women, it's not a stretch to say the players, not the women, were the aggressors.

[timber84]

131. Not sure about the inner workings of escort services

[Neil Lisst]

133. It's probably the set up for a civil lawsuit.

That's what the evidence so far seems to suggest.

The phone call to 911 is a problem.

Of course, none of us know at this point. We're all just speculating.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Neil Lisst]

137. Yes, about 30-50% of reported rapes turn out to be not prosecutable

Some say they are false allegations.

I was reading this study by a professor from Purdue that supported that notion. Fascinating reading and I recommend it.

[Beaverhausen]

138. You know you actually made me laugh!

thanks for the chuckle :hi:

Did you know that Perdue guy told everyone later that he was only joking? You should check it out.

[Neil Lisst]

145. There's a wealth of info supporting. Ask any prosecutor.

[FredScuttle]

140. He was probably feverishly devouring the new research

"35% of all rape cases are elevated to the 11th state of consciousness", so says the explosive new study found on www.HeavensGateNikeTemple.com.

or was it www.JonestownPeoplesTemple.com/rapestudies?

[Neil Lisst]

147. it's common knowledge in law enforcement

[Bethany Rockafella]

134. I'm surprised those boys accepted the exotic dancers to perform for them.

You would think they rather white chicks. I'm just saying.

[Coexist]

146. Keith Olbermann is doing a segment on this right now

MSNBC

[Jon8503]

148. Talking about this on MSNBC now: N/T.

[LeftCoast]

150. Locking

This thread has degenerated into a flame-fest.