Are racism experiments EVER appropriate in public schools?

[derby378]

Poll question: Are racism experiments EVER appropriate in public schools?

There's Jane Elliott's controversial "brown-eyes vs. blue-eyes" experiment from 1968. Then there's the "yellow star" experiment down in Florida. So what do you think? Are these experiements on public school students ever appropriate?

[Poppyseedman]

1. "yellow star" experiment down in Florida.

I am unfamiliar with that. Do you have a link?

I live in Florida and never heard of it.

[sailingaway]

4. somehow, i cant think of this happening anywhere but florida

Local 6 News reported that eighth-graders with last names beginning with L through Z at Apopka Memorial Middle School were given yellow five-pointed stars for Holocaust Remembrance Day. Other students were privileged, the report said.

Father John Tinnelly said his son was forced to stand in the back of the classroom and not allowed to sit because he was wearing the yellow star.

"He was forced to go to the back of the lunch line four times by an administrator," Tinnelly said.

Tinnelly said the experiment upset his child.

"He was crying," Tinnelly said. "I said, 'What are you crying about?' He said, 'Daddy, I was a Jew today.'"

Other parents and children shared similar stories, Tinnelly said.

"They were told that they could not use the water fountains," Tinnely said. "There was even a sign supposedly at one water fountain (saying) if you're wearing a yellow star , you can't use this water fountain."
more:
http://www.local6.com/news/8345157/detail.html

[Finder]

37. Similar lessons everywhere. n/t

[silverweb]

2. Much depends on how they're handled.

My daughter has participated in a few exercises like this, albeit outside of school. She found that preparation beforehand and extensive analysis afterwards with trained counselors made them very valuable experiences, although still difficult for many.

[Swamp Rat]

3. I don't know about "experiments," but discussion about race can be

appropriate.

The "yellow star" experiment in Florida (for 8th graders) was just plain wrong. Maybe the intentions of those involved were good, but the method was not sound.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Wow. What a bunch of ineffective wusses Democrats have turned into...

Case in point: Instead of dealing with racism stuff WHEN IT ACTUALLY GETS INCULCATED, they instead prefer to let it get entrenched in a kid's thoughts and feelings for a decade or more and THEN "deal with it".

One has to wonder, given its obvious uselessness of dealing with racism late, if it isn't because the voters don't really want to deal with it at all...

[tocqueville]

9. the experiment is flawed if you don't introduce an element of revolt

teach the kids how to counter discrimination, by disobedience

this way you avoid the feeling of being unjustfully punished.

[fortyfeetunder]

6. It's got to be AGE-APPROPRIATE

I've seen problems with race starting with pre-school kids. It doesn't have to be teaching the kids a lesson, it has to be age appropriate to the children so they can understand tolerance and understanding.

[etherealtruth]

11. That's the entire key

15 minutes of appropriate "role" playing (at a time) may be the most a kindergartner or 1st grader could tolerate ... whereas a high school Senior might be able to withstand an entire day.

My hope is that along with achieving empathy through exercises like role playing the children are given tools to deal with racism, sexism, classism ...

[EFerrari]

14. I agree! Putting children through that for a whole day is just wrong.

You don't learn very well when you're being TRAUMATIZED.

[bliss_eternal]

17. I wonder what the Jewish children traumatized by the holocaust

learned? Or the black children that had dogs sicked on them and were hosed down by southern police officers? What are the children of immigrant learning now? What about the Indian and Mexican children whose land and legacy was taken away by white settlers? Or MLK jrs. children when their father was killed...?

Yes, it can be traumatizing--but those that lived through those experiences didn't have a choice. Maybe if one is exposed to any of the situations I speak of above for an entire day or longer they may think twice before imposing such treatment on others.

Children today (hopefully) would have the benefit of counselors and teachers to follow-up such an experience--and also let them know that a great deal of people in this country still feel exactly what they did in their "experiment." While their experiment had a begginning, a middle and an end and people available to help them get through it, to talk about how it felt, why it was wrong, how to avoid it, etc. those that still experience such treatment in their lives today do not.

I'm not at all sure what age would be appropriate for such an experiment and when it wouldn't be damaging. But I do think that in some ways children are capable of being far more resilient than we give them credit for, if we give them the appropriate guidance and support.

Is it a requirement for a lesson to hurt to some degree for one to learn from it and grow from it?

:shrug:

Just my thoughts on this issue. I mean no disrespect to anyone that has shared here. :hi: I've enjoyed reading everyone's ideas on this. I'm merely asking questions that come to me when I consider this issue.

Interesting topic--just glad to see people talking about it. Carry on!

[LisaL]

20. So, school should counsel and treat them after the kids were

abused by the school in a first place? What kind of nonsense is that?

[bliss_eternal]

23. I'm not saying one way or the other--

I edited my post to try to clarify my intent, which is merely to consider what I am asking. These are questions that come to mind for me when I read this.

I know some of my biggest lessons have come when I am in pain. I'm not necessarily advocating abuse here by any means. But surely there is a middle ground where a valuable lesson can be taught and learned.

Think about what they are trying to teach them. Discrimination, predjudice, bigotry. When do those issues not hurt if you've ever been on the receiving end of it?

[fortyfeetunder]

32. Good points

When I read about the parents being upset, I think, "good". Now they know it's past time to teach their children the importance of tolerance, justice and treating others with dignity and respect.

The 8th graders got off easy, they were members of an "undesired minority group" for only a day. I hope rational minds prevail among those parents and community members and realize for a population of Americans, they have to live through intolerance, injustice and indignities every day!

[bliss_eternal]

34. Precisely--

(and thank you for the kind words). :hi:

I sincerely don't want to seem as if I'm advocating abuse. I am not. But it is an experiment. They are pretending, play acting for the sake of learning something. If you can't do that in the safety of a classroom with professionals to facilitate the process and the aftermath, where can you do it?

[mondo joe]

47. The timing should be productive, not counterproductive.

I've heard that among facilitators of the Brown/Blue Eyed program that it can go on too long and thus reduce effectiveness.

There's been a lot of work in this area - I'd like to see some data on what's most effective.

[bliss_eternal]

49. Good point...

I'd like to see similar data. Probably tough to get when so many seem concerned over permanenty scarring their children.

There was a pretty cool after school special about a similar experiment called "The Wave." That one focused on high school students, that were studying Nazi Germany.

[mondo joe]

51. Well they've been doing the Brown/Blue program for years and years

and there is a facilitators training, so I should think the optimal duration is well known - at least among those who do it. :-)

[bliss_eternal]

52. Oh, that's great!

I didn't realize they were still doing it and even offering facilitator's training...that rocks!

You're right, they should have some sense of how long it can feasibly be carried out and still be affective. :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. This teacher did it with elementary school kids in 1968

I think they were 3rd graders. Their picture is in the upper right frame of this banner.

She won several awards and was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.



Jane Elliott, internationally known teacher, lecturer, diversity trainer, and recipient of the National Mental Health Association Award for Excellence in Education, exposes prejudice and bigotry for what it is, an irrational class system based upon purely arbitrary factors. And if you think this does not apply to you. . . you are in for a rude awakening.

In response to the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr. over thirty years ago, Jane Elliott devised the controversial and startling, "Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes" exercise. This, now famous, exercise labels participants as inferior or superior based solely upon the color of their eyes and exposes them to the experience of being a minority. Everyone who is exposed to Jane Elliott's work, be it through a lecture, workshop, or video, is dramatically affected by it.


http://www.janeelliott.com/index.htm

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. Here - watch the video of Jane Elliott's experiment.

This is one of the most requested programs in FRONTLINE's history. It is about an Iowa schoolteacher who, the day after Martin Luther King Jr. was murdered in 1968, gave her third-grade students a first-hand experience in the meaning of discrimination. This is the story of what she taught the children, and the impact that lesson had on their lives.

Watch this 46:00 program here in five consecutive chapters. You'll need Windows Media or RealPlayer to watch.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html

[derby378]

10. I hear that experiment scarred many young kids for life

If so, it's a shameful waste of our tax dollars, indeed.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. I have never heard that

Have you seen the Frontline episode? It's been awhile since I have seen it and I can't get it to play on my computer. But from what I remember, they get the kids together 15 years later and they praised the activity. I honestly don't remember any of them saying it damaged them.

This is a very popular story in professional development for teachers. I have seen the original video dozens of times and read many many articles about it in the last 30 years. And seriously, I don't remember ever reading or hearing that any kids claimed they were damaged. If that was the case, we wouldn't be using it as a training tool. Educators tend to be very conservative and when it comes to damaging kids, we just don't go there.

[derby378]

16. I saw the episode a long time ago

And I have some serious problems with the parameters of Elliott's experiment. The kids were too young, and the experiment ran too long.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Well that's your opinion

She has received much praise for her work and it is still regarded highly among educators. But I am sure there are some who find fault with it.

[bliss_eternal]

38. Hi proud2Blib--

:hi:

I've seen that feature several times. The first few times were in elementary and jr. high school--so we weren't privy to the feedback from the participants.

I saw it again in college, in psychology class and also when it was re-aired on television, with the feedback from the participants grown up. My recollection of their responses matches yours.

Not trying to start a flame thing or gang up on anyone--merely sharing my experiences of the documentary.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. I know I don't remember any negative reactions

Not saying there weren't. But I think I would remember if there were.

[pitohui]

12. i was involved in such an experience in school

i was impressed, it really opens your eyes

i learned a lot abt perception from the experience, you think you see things you didn't really see

the experiment i was involved in was the white guy stabs a black guy w. a banana -- and we all saw a black guy stab the white guy w. a knife

i think everybody should be exposed to such an experiment, if nothing else, it gives you better information abt the limits of the human brain, you can genuinely believe you saw something you didn't see because of how you are programmed by society

hell, it's cheaper on the metabolism than ecstasy!

[bliss_eternal]

15. Yes, it can be jarring--

no less than it probably was for the black children pre-civil rights that were called darkie or nigger, and forced to sit in the back, and frequently couldn't even attend classes with white children. Or what about the children of Holocasut Germany?

No one insulated them because they were children, because they were black children and Jewish children.

I feel with the appropriate controls, counseling, explanation and discussion before and after such experiments could be invaluable.

No one can tell me that the pompous ass that is Tucker Carlson couldn't benefit from such an experiment as a child and as an adult. I don't care how young that priviledged clueless asshat participated in such an experiment. The way that man denies that the experiences of people of color could be markedly different from his, absolutely infuriates me. :banghead: :mad::grr: His ignorance is beyond disturbing. I wish he could be fined for it.

[LisaL]

18. Wonderful. You are going to subject the children to experiments

and then counsel them because they are traumatized due to abuse you inflicted on them?
Nice.

[bliss_eternal]

24. I didn't say that--

please don't put words in my mouth. I'm sorry that what I'm saying is upsetting you. I really am. I'm merely asking difficult questions. Discrimination and bigotry and difficult painful issues.

I'm sure you would shield all the brown children of the world from nasty treatment if you could--I know I would. But no one can, can they?

They face it every day depending on where they live and who is in their immediate environment. Why is it wrong to show other children (at a time deemed appropriate) what it's like to live in other skin?

[TahitiNut]

19. I tend to agree.

I'm dubious that any subject called "Social Studies" can convey the most basic issues without some kind of immersion exercises. We had this in elemetary school and we all learned from it. It's supposed to be emotional. ... and childhood innoculations hurt, too.

[LisaL]

21. Have it ever occurred to you that there wouldn't be a need for

so many shrinks if kids were not subjected to "emotional" exercises?

[TahitiNut]

22. Has it ever occurred to you ...

... that beginning a post with "have(sic) it ever occurred to you" is rude and condescending? I posted my opinion. Deal with it.

[bliss_eternal]

27. ...and skinned knees, bullies, friends finding new friends

parents divorcing, pets dying, etc., etc.

Sure, no one wants to impose these things on kids intentionally by any means. I never would want to. But how are they going to grow up and know that it's not cool to make assumptions about someone based on the way that person looks, or their religion or even who they live with if no one teaches them it's wrong.

Hard lessons can't necessarily be digested in a few hours.

It's like telling your kid they can't jump on the bed, because they'll fall and break something. It generally takes them falling and breaking a leg before they get it--and learn they can't jump on the bed. (Lesson learned by my gf's daughter. lol):hi:

[LisaL]

36. The kids are dealing with their pets dying and their parents

divorcing because it actually happened to them. There is no need to inflict emotional pain on them on purpose. It's like saying you need to kill their pet for them to deal with the pain of their pet dying.

[bliss_eternal]

39. Really?

You're certainly entitled to feel that way, lizzy. But I do disagree. It's ok that we agree to disagree, though.

A pet's death is an unfortunate aspect of life that we deal with. Bigotry and discrimination is also a part of our society, but it's my belief that our society might be better without it. As such, I think it would be a positive opportunity to share with children how unfair, hurtful and unnecessary it really is. With adults, it's often too late--starting when their children, they are still open to being taught something.

On edit--I'm not sure how one would liken the opportunity to teach future generations how bigotry is wrong to teaching a kid about death by killing their dog,...but ok. That's your example.

Again, this is all my opinion and you are within your rights to disagree. I'm a bit confused by your hostility and assertions that I'm merely trying to hurt children unncessarily. You don't seem to share the opinion that the examples I've shared are relevant or in any way justified. That's ok, too.

I hope that we can agree, to disagree. I'm certainly no expert. Merely expressing my opinions based on my experiences with discrimination and bigotry.

[TahitiNut]

42. I agree. No loving person wants another, least of all a child, to have

... pain and suffering. We all seem to each have our own "learning threshold" where only direct experience will suffice. Each is unique but, at some point, we all have some things for which only experience will suffice. I guess that some few might even be able to learn how to ride a bicycle with only verbal instruction. (I've never seen it but I guess someone could.) For others, and some things, no amount of textbook material will suffice. (It's no accident that wiser combat veterans don't even try to describe it.) That such things must be learned if we're ever to have hope that they don't happen again is, I believe, unarguable. Sure, we can screw up no matter how we go about doing things - but doing our very best is a duty, I believe.
:hi:

[Finder]

26. Essential and appropriate.

"Walk a mile in the shoes" lessons are nothing new.

[bliss_eternal]

29. ...no, they aren't are they.

Thanks! :hi:

[LisaL]

40. Do you have to abuse someone in order to teach them a lesson?

I don't see how abusing someone, even if it's in pretense, is a good idea.

[bliss_eternal]

41. Ok--but do you want to?

Just curious. Are you asking to be shown? I'd be happy to provide some examples, if that's what you are asking. :)

[DearAbby]

28. I remember the controversial "brown-eyes vs. blue-eyes" experiment

And like the example, it did get sort of ugly, when the teacher had to state that it was just an example of how bigotry starts, I dont recall anyone in tears or such. The teacher kept all of it under control. But it did make the valid teaching point that has stayed with me all my life. Sometimes actually walking in the shoes makes a bigger impression than just saying imagine being in those shoes.

[bliss_eternal]

30. exactly--

I wish it wasn't the case that one really needs to walk a mile in those mocassins, but it seems to be the how it works doesn't it? :shrug: I didn't make the rule up, it just seems to be the way it is...

[mondo joe]

48. I agree. But the point that I fear gets lost is it has to be carried out

properly. There is a method to this experiment, and one that ought to be followed.

[moc]

31. I think preschool is too young for that sort of "experiment".

The cognitive skills of a 3-5yo just don't allow them to abstract in the way necessary to get the right message from it. I think that should wait until close to middle school, or near when children are moving into what's referred to as formal operations in terms of cognitive skills (i.e., the ability to abstract).

However, that doesn't mean it's not appropriate to discuss issues of race with children that young. Children start forming ideas of race during preschool. (For a fascinating qualitative study of young children's ideas about race, see Van Ausdale, D. and J. R. Feagin (1996). "Using racial and ethnic concepts: The critical case of very young children." American Sociological Review 61: 779-793.) My daughter's preschool handled it very well, I think. One of the activities they did used flesh-colored crayons so that children could explore the issue of skin color and its inconsistency with the labels we use for race. I still remember my daughter proudly announcing she wasn't "white" she was "peach and buff".

[bliss_eternal]

33. It's rare to find pre-schoolers -

that even describe people by race--or at least that's been my experience. The times children do, it's when the parents are teaching them to make such designations.

I read a study that stated something that could be appropriate and helpful at the preschool level is having multicultural dolls in preschools. Children having items to play with and stories to read that feature diversity from the start can make a difference.

A former acquaintance thought it was funny (I did not) that her child would ask about another friend by saying "where's the dark lady?" First of all, the woman was far from dark--she was in my eyes rather beige-or even yellow. But his comments were telling. To him, she was dark, because most in his environmnet were lilly white. lol. I told her she needed to expose him to more diversity asap--or he would experience bigger problems later on.

Oh, and he was eight, btw. Maybe if he had books with multicultural images, or dolls with a variety of skin tones, and his parents took him to museums, etc. that contained diverse images...well you know... :hi:

[Guaranteed]

59. I think you're right. With younger children, just play it straight.

Teach affirmatively. There's no need to make a point by deliberately doing the wrong things to show the consequences. Young children's minds are open enough to not need that kind of shock.

[tnlefty]

35. Problem with your parameters discourages an honest response to poll!

1st-5th grade is too wide of a tremendous change in the emotional and cognitive development of children. I wouldn't have a problem with 4th and 5th graders participating in something like this providing that there is teaching and discussion about the subject matter in the context of history (whether it is with yellow stars or prior to the civil rights movement), as kids this age are more developed and can understand better.

Just my $.02.

edit: stupid typo

[NMMNG]

43. Yes.

They just may make kids think twice about subjecting their peers to racist bullying (not to mention bullying based on gender, religion, sexual orientation, etc.).

[bliss_eternal]

50. I can't even begin to express how much

I would LOVE to see such an experiment conducted regarding gender and sexuality... It is imperative that children are shown/taught at a young age that the glbt community are human beings no different than they are.

The problem seems to lie with those that teach them at a young age how 'warped' it is to be gay--through religion, I'm assuming. :eyes: I don't think it would ever occur to a child that gay is equal to bad. Much like most children don't see different skin color, eye shapes, hair textures, etc. as bad.

[NMMNG]

53. Holy sh*t, could you imagine the outcry?

The wingnuts go apesh*t when the schools merely have a little program that tries to teach tolerance, claiming that "tolerance promotes homosexuality". They have e-mail campaigns, barrage the schools with phone calls, pound the papers with LTTEs and more.

An experiment would have them threatening all sorts of chaos. :scared:

[bliss_eternal]

54. Imagine?

I don't think I have to, considering the bullshit, backlash when a gay couple enrolled their kids in a Catholic school in Orange County, California. They wanted the archdiocese to demand that the children be removed from that school--god forbid they extend some of their "christian charity" to children. :eyes:

Edited to check spelling and add--
I was so pissed, I fuckin' called that school while I was on vacation and gave the poor secretary an ear full. lol.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Minor point -

Social Studies IS an academic subject. This activity was part of a Social Studies lesson. So your last choice about schools focusing on academics doesn't make a lot of sense.

[mondo joe]

46. I think these efforts should be carried out, but with exceptional care and

even special training.

I heartily approve of the Jane Elliott program when properly conducted.

The Yellow Star case I consider badly flawed, however well intended.

[NuttyFluffers]

55. 1st hand lessons in empathy are pretty much always a good thing

whether the school, parents, alien invaders from outer space, implement it doesn't matter to me, as long as it is shown to be such a serious thing that it is encased with defined beginning and end and other safeguards. just like playing with roles, power, etc. in BD/SM, some things are so powerful that safeguards must be implemented -- but also must be exposed so that the unconscious tyrants of our daily behavior instead lose their hold over us through the gift of awareness. you can lecture people endlessly, but some things need to be felt for some people to truly "get it." and the more people "getting" empathy, humanity, kindness is only good news to me. the earlier it is done the better, before callousness and selfishness entrench far too deep.

will it "damage" the children? OMG, LOL, teh is to LAF! shit, life alone will "damage" children far worse. better to provide the lessons of love and empathy now to defend themselves from the temptations of cruelty and selfishness. if they never learn the priceless lessons of feeling compassion for others you run the very dangerous risk of breeding tolerated sociopathy. and tolerated sociopathy seems to be a rather rampant ill plaguing our society of late, right? no, better to develop healthy human beings than leaving them to the wild world unprepared. like confucius focusing on 'li' and 'ren,' essentially he boiled the keystone to civilization being civility, humaneness, politeness, empathy. without it we collapse and are lost to the whims of history.

[uggieheart]

56. Yes

But with some caveates.........it needs to be age appropriate; kids have to be older than 8-9, so they have the ability to understand abstract thoughts. Two, I think, if classifications are drawn, it needs to be based on an arm band or some such that can be taken off--and NOT a physical attribute (such as blue eyes, or blonde hair) which will remain with the student. Three, parent permission slips must be obtained--I wouldn't want it to be done to my kid by just any teacher.

[newyawker99]

57. Hi uggieheart!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Guaranteed]

58. Making the point in that kind of way with children under 7 could be very

bad.

A person has to have reached the age of reason to understand the role-playing idea. Before that, you might just be teaching the children TO discriminate based on whatever hypothetical you use. Or, you'll confuse them, or scare the hell out of them.

In any case, it's hard to believe that such young children would be able to think critically enough to understand the point being made.