TYT: McCain's Spiritual Guide Doesn't Understand America (It's Worse Than You Think)

[ihavenobias]

Run time: 03:42 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeAkePP-C8I   Posted on YouTube: March 14, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: March 15, 2008 By DU Member: ihavenobias Views on DU: 1208

 
I created a thread about Obama Vs McCain WRT questionable religious figures:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5083427&mesg_id=5083427

This is from Thursday as TYT took Friday off (and staunch Hillary supporter Michael Shure will be guest hosting without Cenk Monday to give a different perspective on Hillary/Obama), but you can still watch the loop of shows from earlier this week.

By the way, let's not forget about THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1fRjw2DsE

PS---You can always watch TYT Live from 3-5 pm ET, with a Rolling Post Game 5-7 pm daily Monday-Friday at www.theyoungturks.com The RPG often contains political talk but also many non-political topics to lighten things up (and yes, that audio may not necessarily be work-safe).

Also, if you can't watch live, the 3-5pm portion of the show (politics) streams the rest of the day, all day right after the Post Game Show ends leading up to the initial show at 3pm.

[CherylK]

1. I loved your post on Obama and Mccain!

People should care about church figures who could help push a president closer to a war with Iran because they want to speed up Armageddon. I was not even aware of this!

[Jack Rabbit]

2. No, perhaps it's not that bad

Edited for spelling

I;ve think we've learned something about the relationship between politicians and their spiritual guides the last couple of days. The politician doesn't necessarily agree with his spiritual guide in all matters.

I'm no more concerned about Mr. Parsley's views on Islam than I am about the private opinions of many other similarly misguided souls. If I had reason to believe these were Senator McCain's views, I'd be very worried. As of now, I have no reason to believe that any more than I had any reason to believe Senator Obama shares the extreme views of Rev. Mr. Wright. If any one has reason to believe that Senator McCain is a card-carrying Isalmophobe, please post them.

I want this evidence to be something Senator McCain said. To use the views of McCain's "spiritual guide" against McCain himself is simply guilt by association. I've quite enough of holding a politician guilty by association with his spiritual guide for one week, haven't you?

[ihavenobias]

3. I couldn't disagree more, and here's why

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5083427&mesg_id=5083427
From my thread on this issue:

If you want to compare questionable religious figures, and more importantly, their potential influence on Obama and McCain, it's no contest. McCain wins (or loses I should say) by a landslide.

Let's say Pastor Wright really does hate Whites/White America. If so, he's a divisive fool, but do you think Obama is going to push for a bill the hurts white Americans? Or some kind of Black-Supremacy bill?

***In what way will Obama's pastor influence an Obama presidency in any damaging way?*** THAT is the fundamental question here, and if you answer it honestly, you'll soon realize this whole thing is drastically overblown.

By contrast, do you think bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran-there will be more wars-McCain might start another war in the Middle East, which happens to be desired not only by Rev. Hagee (the guy who wants to expedite the rapture through more Middle Eastern conflict, and gave McCain an endorsement McCain said he was PROUD of) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1fRjw2DsE , but also by McCain's "spiritual guide" Rod Parsley (who thinks America is BASED on fighting Islam and that Islam must be destroyed)?

[Jack Rabbit]

4. You're still being fallacious

By contrast, do you think bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran-there will be more wars-McCain might start another war in the Middle East, which happens to be desired not only by Rev. Hagee (the guy who wants to expedite the rapture through more Middle Eastern conflict, and gave McCain an endorsement McCain said he was PROUD of) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo1fRjw2DsE , but also by McCain's "spiritual guide" Rod Parsley (who thinks America is BASED on fighting Islam and that Islam must be destroyed)?

That is not only guilt by association, but post hoc reasoning as well. If Senator McCain had never heard of Rev. Parsley, he would still think bombing Iran is a good idea. If Iran were predominantly Zoroastrian (as it was a couple of millennia back) or even Christian, he would still see Iran as a threat to the United States and still be in favor of bombing it as a way of dealing with that threat. Those are perfectly good reasons, without appealing to McCain's association with Parsley, to oppose McCain's candidacy.

So far, your argument runs Parsley is an Islamophobe; McCain accepts Parsley as his spiritual guide; therefore, McCain is an Islamophobe. It doesn't follow. And neither does the gloss Parsley is an Islamophobe; McCain is an Islamophobe; McCain is an Islamophobe because he has an Islamophobe as a spiritual guide. Even if McCain were an Islamophobe, it doesn't follow that he is an Islamophobe because his spiritual guide is an Islamophobe.

[ihavenobias]

5. (Sigh) You're GROSSLY misinterpreting and misrepresenting my argument.

I am NOT suggesting that McCain shares the exact same motivations as his (insanely) questionable religious figures. Rather, I'm pointing out that some of his top supporters *do* have these motivations, and that a perfect storm of secular/racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic motivations make it far more likely that we'll have yet another disastrous war.

You know, kinda like what happened with Iraq? Lust for oil money, Project For A New American Century style dominance and influence, religious zealots wanting conflict in the Middle East, money for big GOP contributors and friends, etc.

The more vested interests there are wanting a particular outcome (even if their motivations vary wildly), the more likely it is to happen.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. Response

I am NOT suggesting that McCain shares the exact same motivations as his (insanely) questionable religious figures. Rather, I'm pointing out that some of his top supporters *do* have these motivations, and that a perfect storm of secular/racist/xenophobic/Islamophobic motivations make it far more likely that we'll have yet another disastrous war.

So far, you haven't given me a reason to vote against McCain. Yet I have one. It is far more likely that if McCain is president then we will have a disastrous war; we know this because McCain says he'll continue the disastrous war we already have in Iraq and start another disastrous war in Iran. No one need go any further than that. I don't want another disastrous war and will therefore vote for the Democratic nominee, whether it is Senator Obama, Senator Clinton or a compromise candidate emerging from a brokered convention.

Of course, people who want a wider Middle Eastern war for one reason or another are attracted to McCain's candidacy. Still, I see no reason to suppose that McCain shares all of these reasons, and specifically I see no reason to suppose he is an Islamophobe.

[ihavenobias]

7. The funny thing is, I don't see where we disagree

As I said in my previous post, I *also* see no reason to suppose that McCain shares ALL of these reasons and I also don't suppose he is an Islamophobe. It's simply logical that the more vested interests there are desiring an outcome, the more likely it is to happen.

As for reasons to vote against McCain, there's a great article that covers some of those bases in an interesting way:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9000.html

Not the candidate he used to be

By: Cenk Uygur
Mar 12, 2008 08:30 PM EST

...There are two different McCains: the John McCain of 2000 and the John McCain of 2008.

The John McCain of 2000 called the Christian right preachers, such as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, the “agents of intolerance.” He was right. These people are complete charlatans — and McCain knows it. At least he did in 2000.

The John McCain of 2008 has kissed the ring of nearly every major Christian right preacher in the country, even Falwell. Falwell said the United States had the Sept. 11 attacks coming because we tolerate homosexuals, feminists and liberals. The John McCain of 2000 would have found that despicable. The John McCain of 2008 gave the commencement speech at Falwell’s Liberty University.

The John McCain of 2000 said this: “Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance, whether they be Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton on the left, or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell on the right.”

The John McCain of 2008 has pandered to those same exact folks. Can you imagine if Obama gave a speech at an event honoring Farrakhan?

And now, McCain says he is “very honored” to get the endorsement of the Rev. John Hagee, who has called the Catholic church the “Great Whore.” The John McCain of 2000 must be hanging his head in shame.

The John McCain of 2000 thought cutting taxes when you couldn’t pay for it was a terrible idea. In 2003, he thought it was an even worse idea to do that in the middle of a war. The John McCain of 2008 says he will make these same tax cuts permanent.

Is anyone paying attention? Who snatched the body of McCain? I hope it wasn’t the same person who snatched Dick Cheney’s body in 2000.

The Sell-Out Express chugs on. The top issue for McCain has been lobbying reform. That is, until 2008. The man who helped build the public financing apparatus in America is now rejecting public financing in the primaries. But it gets worse.

Earlier in his campaign, McCain received a private loan based on the assurance that he would take public financing in the Republican primaries. The FEC rules are very clear on this matter. If you use the promise of public financing to get private loans, you must accept public financing. That’s proving very inconvenient for McCain, who is near the cap of what he could spend in the primaries if he took public financing. So he has unilaterally decided to not follow the FEC rules. Very convenient and, as usual for the 2008 John McCain, very hypocritical.

McCain now says Obama should agree to take public financing in the general election, where McCain would be at an enormous fundraising disadvantage. Very, very convenient. McCain has become the whirling dervish of hypocrisy. I just wish there were a public servant like the John McCain of 2000 to call out a politician like the John McCain of 2008 on something this egregious...(For the rest, click the Politico link near the top of the page)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x345165

[Jack Rabbit]

9. Our point of contention is a horse-and-cart dispute

I see McCain as a strong candidate who is able to tell voters what he stands for and what he will do; he attracts followers who, if not like minded, at least see some pragmatic benefit to having him make decisions. McCain leads and those who support him follow.

By bringing up the different groups that support McCain, you make it sound as if McCain is a weak candidate, one who seeks a constituency among voters: the political factions lead and the candidate follows. There is some pandering in the McCain's style, but this is to keep people from being so upset with him that hey would never consider voting for him. Any Republican office seeker needs Christian rightists in his corner, so McCain has worked to mend fences with them since he couldn't get their votes in 2000.

Personally, I think I would like McCain if I knew him. There was a time I considered him the kind of Republican I could vote for in a pinch (for instance, if the Democrats were to put up Edwin Edwards for public office for reasons unknown). This is 2008 and the fact is that no one will make a good president in 2009 unless he works to extricate American forces from Iraq, something McCain has pledged not do and has, on the contrary, pledged to take steps that will only make the situation worse than it already is. Whether he is a strong candidate or a weak candidate, I don't want to talk to him right now.

[ihavenobias]

10. But he's not a "maverick", he's a sell out

I'm guessing you skipped the article written by Cenk Uygur (who voted for McCain in 2000 and even preferred him to Gore *at the time*)?

If so, read it now: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9000.html

The good, upstanding Maverick you describe is long gone, lost back in 2000. The shell of what Remains is McCain 2008.

I get that people make public compromises in order to get elected, but you can't dismiss this issue when it comes to McCain for 2 reasons.

1)-McCain is the "Maverick" according to the mainstream media. His ability to pander should (in theory) be much lower than a traditional candidate, or at some point he must lose his "Maverick" label. Which brings me to my second point.

2)-It's one thing to pander to the religious right after being so outspoken against them previously. But it's quite another to be strongly opposed to tax cuts for the rich during a time of war (his words basically) and vote against them twice only to want to make them PERMANENT now. And if that doesn't bother you (it should), the trump card in this argument is that McCain was strongly opposed to torture (including water boarding).

This *was* a core principle for a former POW who was himself tortured. He was outspoken on this, that torture was wrong, not to mention ineffective. Yet as the article in question points out, he broke this strong principle with his vote on water boarding recently, in a truly pathetic and sad attempt to win over the horrible conservative base.

It's one thing to be flexible to get elected. But this guy has basically become Gumby at this point WRT his principles. And for that reason, I have lost a ton of respect for the man, as well as for anyone supporting him.

[GOPBasher]

13. I agree with you, but the point is that the media will cover Obama's

pastor's statement's until it's out of breath, and yet no one covers McCain's "spiritual advisor" who tells us that the whole point of America is to destroy Islam. Why the double-standard? That's the point.

[Sam Ervin jret]

8. Oh it's the Muslims who are causing all the death, pain and trouble in the world?

Stupid me. Thinking the people who want to bomb, bomb, bomb; bomb, bomb Iraq might have SOME of responsibility.

Religion is like medicine, or a sharp pair of scissors. Little kids and morons shouldn't play with them.

[jjr5]

11. Agreed.

[ihavenobias]

12. Double Agreed.

[navarth]

15. Oh my that's good.

Religion is like medicine, or a sharp pair of scissors. Little kids and morons shouldn't play with them.

So very well phrased. May I use it?

:kick:

[OhioChick]

14. K&R

:kick: