Obama Wrong On Torture...So Far (1/3)

[thomhartmann]

Run time: 08:56 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjfvCIx1H3Q   Posted on YouTube: April 18, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: April 18, 2009 By DU Member: thomhartmann Views on DU: 2944

 

[EFerrari]

1. Good job, Thom. I don't understand how you can be so patient

with these fascists.

[HughMoran]

8. Who are the fascists?

The Obama administration?

[EFerrari]

11. You didn't watch the video?

:)

[HughMoran]

12. I got bored halfway through

What did I miss?

(sorry thom, listening on radio and watching clips on DU are 2 different things)

[EFerrari]

13. Thom talked to a little nazi prick named Gerhard -- a real blow up the towelheads

kinda guy.

I don't know how he does it. I'd lose it with every single one of them.

[HughMoran]

14. Hmmm, OK, I listened to the entire clip

Doh!

Gerhard has some serious issues!

[Trajan]

2. Hello Thom ....

and welcome to DU ....

My biggest question ? .... What took you so long to get here ?

And a belated welcome to Portland (I live in Hillsdale) .... We will FINALLY get to enjoy some serious sun worship, eh ? ... None too soon here ....

I do not agree with Obama's stance on this issue, and I hope he changes his mind, and/or congress forces his hand, perhaps ...

In any case: It's GREAT to have you aboard, finally ...

We have a few DU old timers here that haven't met in quite awhile .... Maybe you can join us soon ?

Perhaps .... :hi:

[mopinko]

10. he's been lurking for quite a while

:hi: thom. listen on wcpt every chance i get.

[soulcore]

3. Chilling stuff.

Tell me again why we need to look forward and not backward?

K&R

[xchrom]

4. thank you thom --

you bring a lot to this forum

[madrchsod]

5. listen to you everyday on am820 from chicago

we can never let stop fighting for what we believe in..no matter who is our president.

[Mari333]

6. welcome to DU

:)

[mzmolly]

7. I'm a huge fan

who is delighted to see your post! You aired an excellent statement by Hillary Clinton, I might add.

:hi:

[Tarheel_Dem]

9. Haven't listened to you in months. I know you are, or were a huge fan...

of Ralph Nader, but this country didn't elect Nader, and Pres. Obama isn't going to govern like Nader.

You spent the entirety of the post primary season, telling Obama what he should do..."get out in front of this or that, or he's gonna lose". Apparently, he doesn't listen to you, and I applaud him for it. Unlike the Republican party, I don't want a radio host dictating what the Democratic party should look like. That hasn't worked out well for them, and it would be a huge mistake to elevate a talker as the standard bearer for this party. Your style, like that of Krugman, seems to be the "hair on fire" technique.

My biggest issue with you is that you go on, incessantly, about how much better things are in Europe. I'm not a xenophobe, nor an isolationist, but I don't want this country to become some second rate, mirror image of the EU. I don't think the country will ever be progressive enough for you, but some of us are rather pleased that the country seems to be moving center left.

Adios.

[rooboy]

15. Obviously you haven't listened to Thom Hartmann as much...

or for as long as I have. The idea that he has tried to make himself the standard bearer for the Democratic Party is a ludicrous assertion. And since America can't provide adequate health care or even conduct clean elections, I think it's wise to look to other countries for examples of things that are done right.

If you're going to reject ideas because they originated "in Europe", you might want to pass on the whole democracy thing as well. How ignorant.

[bbgrunt]

16. good job of handling that caller, Thom. k and r!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[unapatriciated]

21. maybe you should be "heartsick"

we all should be heartsick for our governments stance on torture and the decision to ignore the many crimes that were committed in our name.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

26. I am not a Naderite at all

and you are dead wrong, not only about Hartmann who you obviously never listen to but about your quasi-xenophobia which you pointed out yourself so well. I guess if it comes from Europe then it is unamerican and frankly it could be French. Have you been eating Freedom Fries lately? I guess you aren't a fan of democracy, the rule of law, and western civilization which are all unfortunately European. Wow you don't really have much left do you? I could say the same thing about North Carolina, when I lived there I came across a lot of right wing gun nuts so I guess I am going to paint all Tar Heels with a broad brush and say you all must be Neo-Con, gun nut, home schooled, bible in the classroom crazies? Doesn't feel very good does it. Have a nice day.

[defendandprotect]

30. Isn't it amazing how well we've done ignoring progressives and social programs . . ..

which Europeans have enjoyed for decades and decades -- !!!

Who wants a month's vacation and guaranteed health care, anyway --- ???

Amazing how successful right wing propaganda demonizing progressives and socialist

Europe continue to be --

You can always sell "The Commies are coming! The Commies are coming!" . . .

It's right wing "Freedom Fries" and "Welfare Moms" which clears the way for you --

don't bother thinking, just repeat after me--!!!

Still, it seems it should be very clear to anyone willing to take a deep breath and

a moment to THINK who the "Welfare Kings" really are and how America is being reduced

to "third world" status.

Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill System" intended to move wealth and resources

from the many to the few.

And, unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime -- !!

[Tarheel_Dem]

40. There's a reason I don't listen to Hartmann anymore. And there's a

reason why radio listenership is down across the board. You can't alienate the center, and expect to move the country forward, and the GOP is finding that out right now. The extremes, on both the left and the right, must be marginalized. And I don't say that out of hate for my radical leftwing brothers & sisters, but you have to know that the Hartmanns of the world do not, and should not control the democratic party.

There's also a reason why Ed Schultz has shot to prominence on the left, and that's because there's an underserved center that can't bear the extremes of either party. I'm more for compromise, than the my or the highway style of politics that Thom espouses. What will progressive hosts do when they've alienated everyone but the extreme left? Just a thought....

[Raineyb]

32. That's a needless ad hominem

As there are so many things that need to be fixed here there is absolutely no reason not to look to how other countries do things for ideas on how things can be done here. The idea that no other country has anything to offer as far as ideas is American exceptionalism which as a philosophy we'd be well served to drop.

It's complete head up the ass stupidity to say the least and utter and foolish arrogance at its worse.

Regards

[dflprincess]

39. It's amazing how many people think other countries have nothing to offer us

I was at a recent gathering about health care and the possibility of Minnesota finding its own solution. I asked my state senator (a DFLer) if they were looking at the systems in other countries. He told me no because "we" would want an uniquely American solution. I told him that we have an "uniquely American" system now, and it doesn't work. All he did was shrug and move on to the next question.

[avaistheone1]

22. You sound like another blue dog republican-light democrat to me.

I doubt you ever really listened to Thom. You clearly have the wrong take on him.

BTW Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[defendandprotect]

25. This isn't about Obama, Hartmann, nor Nader . . . this is about our Constitution . . .

It's about small "d" democracy and a people's government --

Obama is simply the head of the Democratic Party now --

From the highest perspective, this isn't about individuals nor big "D" politics.

And it certainly isn't about the corporate-wing of the Democratic Party -- the DLC!

We're dealing with corruption of goverment -- TORTURE -- decades of political violence

by the right -- stolen elections.

What will bring us out of this is INVESTIGATING and PROSECUTING --

upholding the Constitution and our laws . . .

Including the Geneva Accords -- the Military Laws against torture --

And our own Constitution which forbids "cruel and unusual punishment" --

Those are the primary concerns -- not politicians nor political parties.







America is attaining "third world status" and you're suggesting Europe is "second rate" . . ?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bahrbearian]

33. Hey, Look over there, there goes Dennis Kucinich, go get him.

God damn Far Left Wackadodles, man I hate those so called Democrats, I hope they secede.

[Raineyb]

38. Oh brother another DLC apologist crapping all over the "leftists"

It's only the leftists who fought for minimum wage laws, paid overtime, clean water and air, a move to equality and other such pesky things you take for granted. What a bunch of jerks! :sarcasm:

I wish these so called centrists would take half the time they use to bash the "leftists" to shut their trap for a minute, listen, and do a little thinking instead of parroting the usual right wing characterization of the "far left."

It's people like you who keep the party from doing the right thing. You think politicians do the right thing because it's the right thing to do? Someone has to push them how about doing some of that pushing instead of reaping the benefits while badmouthing those who actually try to make a difference.

[bahrbearian]

42. You really couldn't read my Sarcasm ?

I guess I need to use the :sarcasm: thingy. I thought it was evident.

[Fedja]

41. Second rate?

Mirror image of the EU? Sigh.

Your biggest issue is that you can't accept the possibility that things are better somewhere else. The EU isn't a single entity any more than the US, Cuba, and Mexico are.

Before passing judgment, open your eyes to what's better abroad and see if you can learn something. The notion that the US is the greatest country in the world, universally and without exception, is what got you into this mess. The ignorance of the people not caring about "the world" enough to learn that some things could be improved is what's keeping you there. Obama can only do the government work, but you have to broaden your own horizons.

[Lochloosa]

18. Morning Kick. Good job Thom.

[unapatriciated]

19. K&R

listened to this last night, words can't express my sadness for what we have become.

[Phred42]

20. K & R

[Overseas]

23. K&R !!

Great job addressing that point!

It has been really sad to me over the past 8 years, to hear Americans try to defend torture under the simplistic banner of bad guys deserve bad treatment. Two wrongs make a damn right. I'm glad you played that Hillary Clinton clip quoting our first president on his opposition to torture.

So many of the armchair torture supporters forget a lot of our history and don't seem to care about what our military and interrogation officials have told us. The experts in interrogation have told us that torture elicits bad information. Time and time again. It doesn't work.

Many times in our history we got enemy combatants to surrender without more bloodshed because they knew we would not torture them.

We participated in prosecuting others who had perpetrated torture and we signed the Geneva Conventions. It is amazing that conservative domination of our media was strong enough to perpetuate the fiction that it is okay for us to go ahead and use the same techniques we condemned. As long as we cooked up some legal memos for cover.

And even if Abu Ghraib has faded from our television screens (and thank goodness our new president and DOJ have declared a stop to torture), the world doesn't forget as easily as we have been trained to do by our conservative dominated news media and tough guy thriller TV shows.

The apologists for torture have even waved the "Support Our Troops" banners and called themselves patriots, without realizing how much their allowing torture endangers our troops. It is a severe contradiction to support "enhanced interrogation" of enemy troops and not realize that opens the door to our troops being subjected to the same brutal techniques if and when they are captured. Refusing to torture protects our troops from being tortured. I've been shocked how little importance that basic fact has been given.

I was also very sad when we had the opportunity to isolate the extremist Muslims from the much larger peaceful majority after 9/11, and turned away from that. A more skillful administration like Al Gore's would have used that tragedy to marginalize the extremists by going after Bin Laden and Al Qaeda with the help of moderate Muslim countries and allies around the globe. It could have been what the world was calling for-- a time of unity against extremism and terror, using intelligence and the rule of law. Sadly, the Bush Administration had imposed themselves upon us and preferred brutal military Shock & Awe. It seems like war profiteering was far more important to them than justice and international allies.

[Iwillnevergiveup]

24. Rec #20

Thom Hartmann is right on on the torture issue. So very eloquent and convincing.

:applause:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

27. I listen to you everyday Thom

on WCPT Chicago, I just wish they would run you at your normal time so I could call you. You are, hands down the most articulate and intelligent voice on radio and you often give me ammo to counter my right wing friends. Welcome to DU.

[raysr]

28. Thom should have gotten

the job given to Shultz(MSNBC).

[ChiciB1]

34. I Don't Think Thom Would Have Wanted To Be "Exploited" In That Way...

While I AM encouraged by KO & Rachel Maddow (thanks for SOMETHING) I'm afraid Thom would have been "skewered" in much the same way they "did in" others like him. There's a long list and I'm sure most of us could name a few, but while what they say is of GREAT importance and it's TRUTH TO POWER... Americans today aren't the same.

I'm ALL for PROGRESS & CHANGE, it's ALWAYS needed, but I also think we need to "look backward" sometimes and realize what made this country once a GREAT AMERICA! The America my father taught me about and was once accepted. We are now far too fractured, mad and VINDICTIVE! That Bible stuff about and eye for an eye really doesn't work for me!

Much as I really dislike saying this, we may indeed go by the way of ROME!!

We MUST get back to basics, SOME HOW! I'm not happy about how this is playing out with this new Administration and I can only WISH there is some good rationalization behind it all. But what it could be escapes me as I search for some reason as to WHY!!!

JMHO!!

[ihavenobias]

35. K & R n/t

[JDPriestly]

36. I recommend that everyone listen to all three portions of Thom's

discussion. I read the book, http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

I also recommend that everyone read that book. I guarantee you, if you think torture is OK or might be justified, studying the Third Reich and the rise of Hitler will change your mind. No matter what, torture must not be tolerated, not by the terrorists and not by our own agents.

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was ‘defeatism.’ You assumed that there were lists of those who would be ‘dealt with’ later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a ‘victory orgy’ to ‘take care of’ those who thought that their ‘treasonable attitude’ had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything ‘necessary’ to win it; so it was with the ‘final solution of the Jewish problem,’ which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its ‘necessities’ gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany’s losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."

That is an excerpt from They Thought They Were Free.

We also think we are free. But many secrets are kept from us, so how could we possibly know. Until everything is known, we are imprisoned by ignorance.

[BumRushDaShow]

37. Waves to Thom

:hi:

I have had the pleasure of listening to you on XM's America Left daily for the past couple months and OMG what a pleasure! An oasis in a sea of RW lunatic radio. A shame I have to pay to listen to progressive talk but it's been worth it!