Message To Ralph Nader

[mzmolly]

Run time: 02:21 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIFEceopAUI   Posted on YouTube: February 04, 2008 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: February 05, 2008 By DU Member: mzmolly Views on DU: 1507

 
Thanks to http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4407217&mesg_id=4407217">LoZoccolo for posting the Strib story which noted the link above.

[stimbox]

1. Dooga, dooga, dooga, dooga!!!! n/t

[bluestateguy]

2. Voter, vote wasted

[iaviate1]

3. The progressive candidate will get my vote. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Same here

[Barrymores Ghost]

7. And my response to iaviate1, below, goes for you, too. (n/t)

[mzmolly]

5. Care to define "progressive" for us?

I find both Clinton and Obama indicative of great progress.

[iaviate1]

12. Let me add for clarity: the TRUE progressive will get my vote.

Are corporatists or people who continue to fund wars progressive? I suppose that's up for debate in your mind.

[mzmolly]

22. Can you define corporatist and demonstrate how both Clinton/Obama have supported a corporatist

agenda? Thanks.

[Barrymores Ghost]

25. It's just a buzzword they learned at the last ...

...rally and rice-and-red-bean social.

Having worked for several years at one of this country's most liberal interdisciplinary arts colleges, I saw a lot of knee-jerk, wasted idealism...usually preceded or followed by a patchoulli-scented drum-beating session. Misplaced youthful zeal is fine, until you blithely and naively allow your real opposition to use it as a tool against you and your own self-interests. Allow it to happen a second time, and you're simply a freakin' idiot.

What these guys don't recognize is that the GOP, while frantic and desperate, isn't dead by a long shot. It is neither their time nor their place for them to try to ride in with Ralph '08 to save the Democratic Party and America from the evils of capitalist cronyism. But they can't seem to grasp that Dems are not the enemy, or that Americans simply won't support Greens to that level -- not yet, anyway.

The most dangerous elephant is a wounded one, and these starry-eyed children want to run out in front of it, waving a red bandana.

Jesus God.

[mzmolly]

30. LOL

:rofl:

[Barrymores Ghost]

34. While I appreciate your appreciation, it's not funny. (n/t)

[mzmolly]

36. The situation is not funny, but I found your description so.

Pardon me.

[Barrymores Ghost]

38. No pardon warranted, and no worries.

...I guess the Moderators felt I was coming on a bit strong, yesterday...I see that three of my posts were scrubbed. I no doubt had that coming. But some of the Naderites really get my back up when they start talking like Democrats are corporate shills and criminals, comparable the BushCo and the GOP.

[mzmolly]

39. If you're post is too "personal" it will be removed.

If you make a "general" statement, it is allowed to stand in most cases. I too get riled at ignorant progressives, and yes I consider a vote for Nader ignorant. I understand being disillusioned but I also understand the political reality in which we live. And, I agree with you that a vote for Nader is cowardly.

[Barrymores Ghost]

6. Great. Good for you. That's the beauty of living in a "democracy"

And if you vote for Nader and the Democratic candidate wins the general election, you can spend the next four years beaming in smug-self-righteousness, extolling your own clearness of consciousness and punctuating his or her every misstep with a bawdy laugh and a loud "Well, there you go, see? Oh, and I didn't vote for the fucker!"

However, if the Republican candidate wins by a split pubic hair in your state -- in a rigged process or otherwise -- and throws the Electoral College to the GOP for the third straight time, then you can shut the hell up for all Eternity, and kiss my rosy-red puckered asshole to boot.

[Pappy]

9. No vote is wasted

Are you going to say that if Hillary wins and I voted for Nader, I threw my vote away? How, when you get either a Repug (Corporate stooge) or a Democrat (Corporate stooge lite) and you refuse to vote for either, you are throwing you vote away. Every freaking democracy has 3 parties but ours, and its about time we get one, because I can't seem to tell the difference between the two we have now, especially Hillary, she might as well be a Repug.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iaviate1]

14. You're rude.

And you assume too much. If anybody should go to FreeRepublic, it's you. Go take your anger over there because they're the true danger, not other progressives.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

28. Ralph said Gore and Bush were the same - 2000

It was total bullshit too.

With Gore we would have had peace and even be on our way to cleaning up the environment
and going green.

Now, look at us.

Thanks alot Ralph, you suck.

Run for a political office like congress or mayor or senate or governor before
you waste our time with another one of your vanity publicity seeking election runs.

Every vote is precious, and we can't waste them on you.

[Barrymores Ghost]

29. Precisely my point. (n/t)

[frog92969]

16. Be careful

That kind of talk can get you banned around here.

BTW :toast:

[iaviate1]

13. I don't believe in hell...

And I certainly don't believe in voting for people who best represent corporate interests. If you feel voting for republican-light candidates or the lesser of two evils, good for you. You're entitled to your vote and opinion. I just hope the electorate eventually realizes that compromising progressive values won't lead to success... it's lost us a couple elections recently.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

24. I've enjoyed your posts

Welcome. Though I see you've been registered a while. :hi:

[Barrymores Ghost]

26. Thanks, mzmolly...I'm a long-time reader...

...who's finally discovering my own voice, and I am finding that I have a lot more I need to say these days than I'm content to have other say for me.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. And if I vote for a Dem who doesn't repeal everything ** ever did,

get us out of Iraq, get us REAL universal health care that doesn't suck money out of people who can't afford it, re-regulate everything ** has deregulated, put up liberals for the courts instead of pandering to the RW by nominating neanderthals, and make a monumental effort towards dealing with global warming, well then I will still have wasted my vote won't I? :eyes:

[Barrymores Ghost]

17. That's up for you to decide whether it's wasted or not.

If I vote for a Dem who gets me at least some of that, then that's some tangible thing or two more than the big fat f*cking nothing I get from the wholesale perpetuation of the last eight years, which would be guaranteed by a GOP presidency.

Like I said, you go and knock yourself out. But don't expect you can waddle into DU and shout your clarion call for "Nader 2000 Redux" without getting some flack from those of us who would have taken Gore over BushCo any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And if it offends your sensibilities or upsets your delicate constitution, well...that's just too goddamned bad.

<edited for typos>

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. IF you vote for a Dem who gets you some of that. But what if you get none of it? Seriously, what

makes you so sure you will get it? How many times have we all sat around in here waiting with bated breath for the Congressional Dems to do something, stand in **'s way, only to roll over and give him what he wants? The two front runners in the primaries are/were Senators. I'm sorry. I just don't see them riding in on a white horse to save us, when that is what we really need. :(

So if it comes down to a protest vote for Nader or the Greens or the Socialists (I am always torn there) or a Dem who will do nothing to change the status quo.. well, crap.. it's just all too damn depressing, isn't it? All I want is proof. I just want proof that my vote for the Dem will actually get us somewhere, and not just be another case of false hope and heartbreak yet again.

[Barrymores Ghost]

21. I think you should take a step back and really survey the political landscape.

There is a remarkable opportunity for the Democratic Party to completely reverse the tide of GOP control and turn back the encroaching wave of silent fascism in this country. You seem to think that, when people become despondent enough, they'll see your way of thinking. But you ignore the damage that can still be done (on top of that already done since 2000). You also forget that the trend among our American species is toward apathy, not socialist revolution. The Democratic Party is still inclusive of differing opinions and priorities, unlike its counterpart.

No one is asking you to surrender your passions or convictions. You're being presented with a rare opportunity to see the party that is proudly made up of progressives, Greens, liberals, socialists, moderates, Reaganites, blue-dogs, pro-choicers, gun-toters and gun-control advocates assume a real position of strength and given a chance to fully govern.

Under that governance, you will be given a voice and a chance to influence policy that more closely reflects your belief system. If you think that anyone in the GOP would piss on you if you were on fire, screaming in the street, you are sadly, horribly mistaken.

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. I am well aware that there is an opportunity. Again. Like I said, I am just worried that

I am getting another untouchable carrot dangled in front of me. Again.

[Barrymores Ghost]

27. We ALL are.

But there is being afraid of it, and then there is unwittingly ensuring it. We always need to be optimistic enough to dream of the future and work toward our long-term goals, but we have to remain realistic and pragmatic enough to be sure we achieve what is attainable right now.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Barrymores Ghost]

33. Let's address these, point-for-point, shall we?

As an active-duty veteran myself, Lyndon Baines Johnson gets no points from me for increasing troop strength in IndoChina. Item of note: you ignore everything else that Johnson accomplished, to include his Great Society programs that waged war on poverty, established Medicare, the Housing Act, the formation of HUD, the formation of the NEA, the Economic Opportunity Act, VISTA, the Job Corps, the Civil Rights Act of '64 and the desegregation of schools, the strengthening of the Voting Rights act, the appointment of Thurgood Marshall to the Supreme Court, etc., etc., etc.

While "Don't ask, don't tell" has, in my opinion, performed poorly as a compromise measure, it was founded with the best of intentions and introduced in the face of a Republican-dominated Congress. It was far better than anything any Republican OR Democrat before has ever dared to offer, and said far more on the issue than your precious Nader has ever dared to speak. I served with gay men and women, whose sexuality was no horrible secret, and this was under Reagan and Bush I. I can assure you that far fewer were drummed out under Clinton I than would have been, had such a policy failed utterly, or never have seen the light of day.

NAFTA, GATT, WTO: I suggest you read the NYU School of Law's take on NAFTA and GATT within the framework of the WTO and draw your own conclusions. I tend to believe that Bill Clinton (regardless of my level of support of him, or lack thereof of his wife as a Presidential candidate) was someone who was truly well-meaning and thought that this would be something that would make international economic interdependence an obstacle to war-making. The problem was, corporations vested in the proliferation of weapons sales, weapons consumption and related industries also saw economic viability, but twisted the means to justify the ends.

How did (Dems?) defeat Hillary's health care plan when they were subordinate to the GOP-controlled Congress during Bill's presidency? Sorry, but you'll need to be clearer on this one.

How do Dems affect policy in Iraq, facing a GOP filibuster or presidential veto? Well, good question. How do you propose that Ralph Nader get it done, Sport? How do you rationalize voting to cut off war funding, knowing that Bush will happily use that as a tool to cut troop support and, ultimately, use it as a punitive measure against our service members and as a publicity stunt to fuck Democrats? Do you honestly envision this Administration as one who who thinks twice about having its hand forced? God, I mean, if you do, then you are not only a gullible pawn of the GOP, but you are also unworthy of your own apparently rhetorical questions.

As to buying in on Bush's bullshit on Iraq, Democratic and Republican congressmen and women were handed a set of intel notes and told "THIS is what we're up against." Unfortunately, Paul Wellstone was dead by this time; but that's the reality, and few bucked it.

As to impeachment...yeah, well, you have me as a staunch supporter. I also supported those candidates (i.e. Kucinich) who called for it, and will continue to. Oh, but where was Mssr. Nader on the issue? Please enlighten me. And, again, explain to me why Ralph couldn't be bothered with jumping into the debates as a Democratic candidate and challenging that abhorred dominant donkey paradigm?

[mzmolly]

37. "A vote for a dem is a waste of semen..."

Perhaps you should check out the user rules as they indicate that those participating here are to be "generally supportive of Democrats". You clearly are not. I think you should examine Ralph Nader a bit more closely before suggesting that he will properly use your precious "semen".

[Barrymores Ghost]

40. Is Nader robbing us of our precious bodily fluids?

I feel like I'm a character in Dr Strangelove.:wtf:

[mzmolly]

41. Apparently Democrats are.

;)

[Barrymores Ghost]

8. k&r!

beautiful. just, beautiful.

[paparush]

10. K & R! /nt

[Taverner]

31. Awesome yes - Nader needs to retire

[kenfrequed]

35. I think

That the DLC needs to be retired. If they are ignored or marginalized and their candidates ignored (funny how they suddenly backed both Hillary and Obama) then we won't need Ralph Nader as much. And to be honest, Nader did more for us than Hoyer, Emmanual, Ford, or Hillary Clinton EVER did.

[Ava]

42. LOVE it!

:rofl: :spray: