OK, so Libby learned about Plame from Darth Sneer. Think with me

[Jackpine Radical]

about that for a minute. I don't know how many covert operatives there are in the CIA, but I bet Cheney doesn't just happen to know who most of them are, and whom they're married to. But he knew about Plame/Wilson. When did he acquire that knowledge? Moreover, WHY did he acquire that knowledge? I'm betting he knew about Plame because of her work on anti-proliferation. Like Robert Paulsen pointed out, Darth didn't want the AQ Khan connections to him, BCCI, Halliburton & all that surfacing, so he had people keeping tabs on Valerie. The fact that he seems to have been the primal source for the whole outing campaign would suggest that he already knew about her, had people keeping an eye on her undercover activities, etc. This would seem to mean Darth had moles in the CIA reporting to him, via extralegal channels, about what Plame & Brewster-Jennings were up to. Then when they needed to discredit Wilson, Darth saw his opportunity to score a twofer, taking out the Plame & Brewster-Jennings operation while at the same time slapping Wilson down with the entire nepotism distraction.

Does this make sense to anyone?

[Spazito]

1. Could it have been part of the "stovepiping" that Hersh wrote about?

I, too, believe Cheney knew who Valerie Plame was and what she did well before Joe Wilson wrote his op-ed, even before Joe Wilson was sent, by the CIA, to Niger.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. I think this existed outside the stovepiping channel.

It wasn't part of the system of short-circuiting the normal intelligence-vetting functions of the CIA. It was something else, more of a spying-on-the-spies operation.

[nannah]

2. the destruction of brewster jennings always seemed like a primary target

to me, much more substance to the damage to brewster jennings than trying to somehow humiliate Joseph Wilson.... much more treasonable also.

[DearAbby]

16. Yes

There was no reason to out Brewster Jennings if the whole thing was just retaliation against Wilson. Outting the wife as working at the agency, would have done the job...why was there a need to out Brewster Jennings? (main objective?)I too believe there is much, much more to this.

[tularetom]

3. Soon as I heard that Plame was involved in the anti proliferation

part of CIA I suspected this. Everything you point out went through my mind at some point. I just didn't think anybody in the corporate media would make the connection or if they did, have the balls to call attention to it. I'm still dubious that we'll hear about it anywhere except here at DU.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

4. I keep hoping that Fitz will gradually chip away and we'll find out the actual sequence of events.

Unless someone writes a tell-all years from now, or unless Fitz gets to the treasonous outing underlying the Libby perjury and obstruction charges, we may never find out.

[hvn_nbr_2]

21. I think Fitz is pursuing something major (or maybe already has it)

It hasn't made any sense to me for a long time that Fitz has been dragging this whole thing out for this long for one perjury case, especially considering his history in other corruption cases and also considering how many other irons he has in the fire with his other responsibilities. Doesn't make any sense, that is, unless Libby is just the thread that starts a large unraveling, and Fitz already knows quite a bit about what's he's about to unravel.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

22. The mystery sealed indictment?

Maybe it is for Cheney?

[Jackpine Radical]

25. That speculation is floating around.

[LonelyLRLiberal]

29. Delicious! I hope it's true and it happens. n/t

[Prophet 451]

5. "Darth Sneer", thanks for that n/t

[notadmblnd]

6. Didn't Wilson say that the request for the CIA to send someone to Niger

originally came from the OVP?

[Jackpine Radical]

8. Yes, you're right. I hadn't made that connection--

but it's an interesting one. Makes you wonder how specific that request was--"Send someone" or "Send Joe Wilson?"

[sam sarrha]

9. he was trashing Wilson and the "CIA" told him to stop cause Valerie was under cover.. the CIA told

him and told him to knock it off.. and say nothing about plame

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. Plame was working on proliferation information for Iran.

Since we know Iran is where they were ultimately headed, I think it's a good guess that they needed her out of the way, early. It just backfired on them, in a big way.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

11. It makes perfect sense, especially . . .

. . . since Cheney has a need to be in total control of everything. He's no doubt been developing a network of moles in the CIA for decades. He's obsessed with power. He's got strings running to everything.

He's evil and crafty. Just not crafty enough.

I was thinking that had this happened in the Soviet Union, the KGB would've taken him out years ago . . .

[emulatorloo]

12. FWIW trial testimony is that Libby learned about Plame from CIA Robert Greneir, not Cheney

So it sounds like "I learned it from Cheney" is another scooter libby lie.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/02/01/libby_cheney/index1.html

<snip>
Upon the publication of Nicholas Kristof's column in the New York Times on May 6 that described the Wilson mission but did not identify him, Cheney went into a fury. Libby was dispatched to unearth material about Wilson. He called Robert Grenier, chief of the CIA's counterterrorism unit, on June 11 and learned from him the identity of Valerie Plame, according to Grenier's testimony this week in the Libby trial. From that moment, Libby began his disinformation campaign that she was responsible for sending her husband on the mission, which was authorized by higher CIA officials. Under oath to Patrick Fitzgerald's grand jury, Libby claimed that he first learned about her identity from Tim Russert on July 10. (Grenier, for his part, was forced out of the CIA in early 2006 for opposing the administration's torture policy.)
<snip>

[Jackpine Radical]

15. I don't think Grenier's right about this.

He may have told Libby on the 11th, but I think Libby already knew. Didn't Fitz bring forth evidence or testimony that Libby knew before the supposed Russert sourcing? IIRC Russert says he learned it from Libby on the 10th.

[emulatorloo]

19. Grenier **June*** 11, Russert **July** 10th. So Russert convo a month later

unless I am misreading. . .

BTW check out that Salon article if you get a chance it is a good one.


ON EDIT -- not that I thnk this contradicts the spirit of your theory about Cheney Plame twofer.

ON EDIT again -- see this hot new thread on Brewster Jennings

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x105247

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Only one thing to say at a time like this...

Oops.

[emulatorloo]

42. Nah, Not really -- it is confusing as hell, and Bond's testimony contradicts Grenier

So who the heck knows who told who?!?!? I feel like I've had sand thrown in my eyes. . .

The only thing we are certain of is that Scooter and Cheney are both liars. But we knew that before.

:patriot: :toast:

[emulatorloo]

18. Self delete -- wrong place

EOM

[Spazito]

31. The blogging testimony today from Debbie Bond, an FBI agent

that interviewed Libby brings out that Libby first learned about Mrs. Wilson from Cheney:
DB = Debbie Bond
Z = Prosecution

SNIP


Z did you talk about how he learned of Plame's id

DB he first learned about Plame from VP, during telephone call on or about June 12, 2003. Description of phone call. A handwritten note he claimed he had written during this conversation.

Z What did he tell you. Precise date.

DB On the note 6/12/03, line on top, meant approximately. Regarding an article by Pincus. Written for newspaper on June 12, he believed he talked about this note prior to that. He had written the date afterwards, within a couple of days, couldn't remember precisely when.

Z He dated it afterwards. He told you what about when.

DB A day or two before 6/12

Z What did he tell you VP told him

DB Libby told us that VP told him that AMb's wife worked in CP division. Libby explained that CP stood for Counter Proliferation.

Z Did Libby tell you where he tought VP learned this.

DB Yes–VP told him he received it from someone at CIA. He believed VP had learned it from Tenet. However he was not certain if it was Tenet or someone else.


End of SNIP

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/02/01/libby-live-fbi-agent-bond-three/

[babylonsister]

32. An FBI agent claims Libby learned about Plame from Cheney:

http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/linkframe.php?linkpg=http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003540604&linkid=30113

FBI Agent Testifies Libby Learned About Plame from Cheney
Scooter Libby


By E&P Staff and The Associated Press

Published: February 01, 2007 10:00 AM ET updates all day

WASHINGTON The "CIA leak" trial resumed today, after two critical days of testimony from reporters Judith Miller and Matt Cooper. As in past days, E&P will provide running updates here.

After a long day or legal wrangling and no witnesses, an FBI agent took the stand shortly before 3 p.m. She is Deborah Bond, a 19-year veteran, called into the probe of who may have leaked name of classified agent.

She described the bureau's interview with I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby on Oct. 14, 2003. Asked where he first learned of Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame, he had told the FBI then -- from the vice president, on or about June 12 that year, in a telephone conversation.

Vice President Cheney had also said that she worked in "CP" or counter-proliferation at the agency. How did Cheney know this? From someone at the CIA -- possibly director George Tenet, but Libby wasn't sure.

more...

[speedoo]

13. K&R

Unfortunately, it makes a LOT of sense.

It's unthinkable, but then we are talking about shrub and darth, and their cabal, aren't we.

[SpiralHawk]

14. Moles !!!!

Eeeek - that's what happens when you let a corrupt cabal of republicon cronies steal your government !

[Jackpine Radical]

17. Our yard's full of those critters & I keep trying to trap them.

[kineneb]

33. there's moles, and then there's moles

these guys are a lot cuter than Darth Cheney and his minions.

[Oilwellian]

35. Spread blood meal in your yard

it's fairly inexpensive, environmentally safe and within 2 days, the moles are gone. :D

[karlrschneider]

20. Maybe, But Darth might have just put out the "word" to find SOMETHING

on Joe...or his wife, family, or friends and the information got swept up along with everything else...


or not...

[The Doctor.]

24. Always understood the reasons...

Never thought about Darth having his own ops. Makes sense.

[robertpaulsen]

26. Makes sense to me!

:hi:

:kick:

[Jackpine Radical]

28. Hi Robert.

Nice of you to drop by.

[scarletwoman]

27. k & r -- makes plenty of sense to me. Well done!

:hi:

sw

[bear425]

30. By Jove, I think you've got it! k/r n/t

[passy]

34. Our dear departed ambassador to the UN knew all about it.

Why is it that he is never mentioned. He is the one person that everyone forgets about in this sordid tale.
Bolton was right in the middle of the action as he was Undersecretary of State for Arms Control and International Security.
From wikipedia " At the same time, he was involved in the implementation of the Proliferation Security Initiative, working with a number of countries to intercept the trafficking in weapons of mass destruction and in materials for use in building nuclear weapons."
I also remember reading that even when he had left his post he was still receiving classified info on the Proliferation Security Initiative.
I bet you he even volunteered the information to Cheney via John P Hannah perhaps, from Wiki "John P. Hannah is a senior aide on national security to U.S. vice president Dick Cheney. He is on loan to Cheney's office from the office of former State Department official and current U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton. Hannah is believed to be a subject of the Valerie Plame investigation."
Considering Bolton's history of destroying every initiative regarding the proliferation of WMDs it would not surprise me that to retaliate against the Wilsons and uncovering Brewster Jennings would have seemed like a perfect opportunity to the PNACkers.

Passage from Wiki describing Bolton's methodology "Bolton was instrumental in derailing a 2001 bio-weapons conference in Geneva convened to endorse a UN proposal to enforce the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention. "U.S. officials, led by Bolton, argued that the plan would have put U.S. national security at risk by allowing spot inspections of suspected U.S. weapons sites, despite the fact that the U.S. claims not to have carried out any research for offensive purposes since 1969."<13>

Also in 2002, Bolton is said to have flown to Europe to demand the resignation of Jose Bustani, head of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), and to have orchestrated his removal at a special session of the organization. The United Nations' highest administrative tribunal later condemned the action as an "unacceptable violation" of principles protecting international civil servants. Bustani had been unanimously re-elected for a four-year term—with strong U.S. support—in May 2000, and in 2001 was praised for his leadership by Colin Powell.<14>

He also pushed for reduced funding for the Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction program to halt the proliferation of nuclear materials."

[radfringe]

36. there are so many connecting dots on Cheney

if it were a visual display - he would look like he has the measels

[Jackpine Radical]

43. Naw, that was the other guy--Harry Whittington (nt)

[magellan]

37. Is it possible Cheney intentionally had Wilson involved to get to Plame?

If Cheney wanted to shut down Plame's work on anti-proliferation for fear of what it might expose about him then he may have orchestrated Wilson's trip to Niger behind the scenes. Wilson had already spoken out against the invasion of Iraq, giving Cheney good reason to expect Wilson would discover and report back the truth of the forgery, and resulting in the excuse to smear Wilson and out Plame. We know Cheney spent an inordinate amount of time at the CIA before the invasion.

From The Nation article http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=823">A White House Smear:

Was Wilson's wife involved in sending him off to Niger? Wilson won't talk about her. But in response to this query, he says, "I was invited out to meet with a group of people at the CIA who were interested in this subject. None I knew more than casually. They asked me about my understanding of the uranium business and my familiarity with the people in the Niger government at the time. And they asked, 'what would you do?' We gamed it out--what I would be looking for. Nothing was concluded at that time. I told them if they wanted me to go to Niger I would clear my schedule. Then they got back to me and said, 'yes, we want you to go.'

[Garbo 2004]

39. Wilson went to Niger in Feb/March 2002.

So no, he wasn't sent to Niger in early 2002 because he was an outspoken critic in 2003 of the Iraq invasion.

Cheney had asked a question and it was the CIA that decided to send someone to Niger. No doubt it was a question the CIA as well as the State Dept had previously answered for Cheney. Both State and CIA had previously said the Niger claims were bunk. Also a general had also previously gone to Niger to check out the claims and also said they were bogus. I'm thinking the CIA may have been doing some extra CYA-ing by sending someone out to Niger. Wilson had previously done some "on the ground" fact checking for the CIA in Africa due to his familiarity with and contacts in the region. So it wasn't all that peculiar that when the CIA thought of sending someone to Niger in February 2002 they would think of Wilson.

[magellan]

40. Thanks for sorting me out on this

I know better but I have it stuck in my head that Wilson went to Niger in 2003, probably because that's when his op-ed appeared.

[Garbo 2004]

38. OVP was asking for info from State & CIA about Wilson's Niger trip. They reported back to Cheney &

Libby, verbally and in writing (State INR June 10 memo, for example) with info that included that Valerie Wilson worked at the CIA and had some involvement with Wilson's trip. Libby's October 2005 indictment already told us that.

What's really interesting is the revelation of info at the trial not previously revealed in the indictment or the prosecution's pre-trial filings.

That Cheney told Libby about Plame is not news. It was in Libby's notes turned over to the investigation. And it was in the indictment. That an FBI investigator just testified that Libby had admitted to investigators that he and Cheney may have discussed leaking Valerie Wilson's CIA employment to the media IS news.

Additionally in regards to Brewster-Jennings, IMO some people wrongly regard B-J as if it was a big operation on its own, running agents, etc. B-J was a front company, a cover, that was not much more than a name with an address at an office building where it wasn't a tenant. It was not a cover that could withstand serious scrutiny. It was useful I guess as an employer of record for agents to use in their real identities, as Valerie Wilson did. And any of those other agents who also had cited an affiliation with B-J also were compromised when Wilson's cover was blown. But as other former CIA agents have noted, when she was operating undercover overseas, Valerie Wison would have posed under other identities with affiliations with real companies that existed and would check out along with her "employment" with them.

[byronius]

41. This was Randi Rhodes' analysis to a T.

Sounds logical. For criminals, that is.