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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:26 AM
Original message
Have people lost proper respect for nuclear bombs?
My point is that I'm stunned -- and very concerned -- to hear many people in government or military posts, in America or elsewhere, speaking of using nuclear weapons, "tactical" or otherwise, as if this could be done in a limited way.

It's like they have completely forgotten what almost everyone knew as long ago as 1950: Once a single nuclear warhead is unleashed, anywhere, by anyone, the entire world is at deadly risk due to the danger of counterstrikes, escalation, and the spread of fallout.

Why would any thinking person believe that it might be even remotely rational to launch a nuclear strike? Has it been so long since the Cuban Missile Crisis that most people have forgotten why it was such a dangerous moment for everyone on the planet?

Do the world's citizens now think it really might be possible for nukes to be used without endangering us all?


On another thread yesterday LonelyLRLiberal reminded us of the stunningly frightening TV-movie called The Day After, which ABC aired in 1983. I feel sure many of you here remember that movie well, as I do, because not only was it scary as hell, it was truly a major event at the time, sparking a lot of controversy and serious discussion worldwide.

To refresh memories (or inform our younger members), here is some info about this historic movie from the Website of the Museum of Broadcast Communications.

The Day After, a dramatization of the effects of a hypothetical nuclear attack on the United States, was one of the biggest media events of the 1980s. Programmed by ABC on Sunday, 20 November 1983, The Day After was watched by an estimated half the adult population, the largest audience for a made-for-TV movie to that time. The movie was broadcast after weeks of advance publicity, fueled by White House nervousness about its anti-nuclear "bias". ABC had distributed a half-million "viewer's guides" and discussion groups were organized around the country. A studio discussion, in which Secretary of State took part, was conducted following the program. The advance publicity was unprecedented in scale. It centered on the slogan "THE DAY AFTER--Beyond Imagining. The starkly realistic drama of nuclear confrontation and its devastating effect on a group of average American citizens..."

The brainchild of Brandon Stoddard, then president of ABC Motion Picture Division, who had been impressed by the theatrical film The China Syndrome. Directed by Nicholas Meyer, a feature film director, The Day After went on to be either broadcast or released as a theatrical feature in over 40 countries. In Britain, for example, an edited version was shown three weeks later, on the ITV commercial network, and accompanied by a Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament recruitment drive. It was critically dismissed as a typically tasteless American travesty of the major theme--in a country which had yet to transmit Peter Watkins' film on the same theme, The War Game.

Wherever it was shown, The Day After raised questions about genre--was it drama-documentary, faction (how do you depict a catastrophe that has not yet happened?) or disaster movie? It could be seen as stretching the medium, in the lineage of Roots and Holocaust, manipulating a variety of prestige TV and film propaganda devices to raise itself above the ratings war and the attempt to address a notional universal audience about the twentieth century nightmare.

ABC defined the production both in terms of realism--for example, the special effects to do with the missiles and blast were backed up with rosters of scientific advisors--and of art, as a surrealist vision of the destruction of western civilization--as miniaturized in a mid-West town and a nuclear family (graphically represented in the movie poster). Network executives were particularly sensitive to the issue of taste and the impact of horror on sensitive viewers (they knew that Watkins' film had been deemed "too horrifying for the medium of television"), although, contradictorily, the majority of the audience was supposed to be already inured to the depiction of suffering. The delicate issue of identification with victims and survivors was handled by setting the catastrophe in a real town with ICBM silos and by using a large cast of relatively unknown actors (though John Lithgow, playing a scientist, would become more famous) and a horde of extras, constellated around the venerable Jason Robards as a doctor. Time magazine opined that "much of the power came from the quasi-documentary idea that nuclear destruction had been visited upon the real town of Lawrence, Kansas, rather than upon some back lot of Warner Brothers."


You can read the rest of the Museum's article on it here:

http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/D/htmlD/dayafterth/dayafter.htm


I thought it was important to provide DUers some detailed info on this film because you don't see movies like this anymore. Just three years before The Day After, there had been the theatrical release called War Games, which many probably recall too. Such films as these made all of us very aware of the dire dangers of nuclear weapons arsenals on hairtrigger alert systems -- if we weren't already smart enough to fear the prospects they held for all humankind.

Back in 1983, with ranting, raving Ronald Reagan at the helm in the U.S., most citizens were still -- or maybe I should say again -- very afraid of and worried about the potential for global thermonuclear war. It was then only two decades since the Cuban Missile Crisis which had scared most of us "beyond imagining," and Reagan's threats aimed at the Soviet Union brought back a lot of that real, deep-seeded fear.

Nowadays when we get a movie about the use of nukes, such as, say, The Sum of All Fears, we see Ben Affleck running unprotected right into the middle of an urban area immediately after a nuclear strike hits it, as if the irradiated fallout at Ground Zero were merely a nuisance.

And similarly, all the talk recently among the military powers of the world about "tactical nuclear weapons" and "dirty bombs" has also served to downgrade our reasonable and justified fear of the dangers of any nation EVER using nukes. The line between "conventional" bombs and "low-yield" tactical nukes has been deliberately blurred by the Bush administration and its Pentagon, as well.

Yet I just did some research (just Google "tactical nuclear weapons" and check some of the obviously reputable sites for detailed info), and all the military's talk of "survivability" regarding these supposedly "safer" nukes is exposed for the hogwash it is.

I have to wonder, would even Israel seriously think that it could hit Iran's deep-bunker nuclear plants without any need to worry about radiation blowing back over their own citizens?

And does anyone with one brain cell left really believe that if ANY nation actually used a nuclear weapon on another, that would be the end of the exchange? Do they think, for instance, that Russia would let the U.S. nuke Iran, a solid ally and crude oil provider of theirs, without putting our facilities (and troops) in Iraq in danger of nuclear retaliation? And what might that escalate into?


To conclude with a couple of rhetorical questions:

Why on earth are people all over the planet sitting around waiting for the first insane launching of a nuclear weapon in the powder-keg Middle East or elsewhere, like we'll just "see what happens next"? Have we all lost our collective minds?


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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. My favorite is whomever around here was claiming that tactical nukes aren't REAL nukes. LOLOL!!!
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Someone here at DU claimed that??
Good grief....

But then of course, the more confusion the Bush administration can cause about the issue, the better off they are!

I see it as yet another Rovian campaign of disinformation, all the talk from any Bush people about the survivability or limited impact of TNW's (Tactical Nuclear Weapons).

Fact is, the TNW's are nukes that are not included in the non-proliferation treaties between nations. They are, to the delight of many, falling "under the radar" and seem to have been pretty much accepted as reasonable to use by almost everyone these days.

Thus the title of this thread....


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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. yup - here's the thread
With the astoundingly ill-informed subject line:
'Not all nuclear weapons are "nukes". Lets educate ourselves a bit.'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3059979&mesg_id=3059979

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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Actually, there were several threads all at the same time
it was as if a fax had been sent out, and the minions were catapulting the propoganda...

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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. Appreciate the link to that thread -- I read the whole thing.
And now that you mention there were several at the same time, it DOES sound like someone put the propaganda into the catapult, all right! :puke: :eyes:

That particular thread was actually encouraging to read, however, since no one agreed with him and instead so many knowledgable DUers spoke up to explain to the spewing OP just how wrong he was! Some of them even posted a lot of the great info I came across as I was researching this topic today.

I bookmarked the thread even though I'd already bookmarked quite a few other sources of info on the Web, because there was the repudiation of the spouted nonsense about TNW's all in one place!

Thanks a bunch, Bananas, I do appreciate it. :hi:


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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Here's a thread from that same day with good info
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. You make sveral very important points
in my view. Once we start down that road ... deployment of tactical nukes ... we have at the least set a very dangerous precedent.

One likely outcome of such a foolish move would be the just condemnation of every decent, civilized nation.

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yep. n/t
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. "Electromagnetic Radiation (emr) Weapons: As Powerful As The Atomic Bomb"
by Cheryl Welsh
February 2001
http://www.mindjustice.org/emr13.htm

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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. That's some very scary stuff too.
I bookmarked the site to read more later, but I feel quite sure that our own government has been testing such weapons, even on U.S. citizens. I remember the MK-Ultra ops well, and don't doubt that any means they can develop to "control minds" continues to be a goal.

Though the age-old methods of intimidation and fearmongering seem to be working quite well for them still....


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pdxprog Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Horrifyingly, yes
I have to wonder, would even Israel seriously think that it could hit Iran's deep-bunker nuclear plants without any need to worry about radiation blowing back over their own citizens?


The other day I received a Daniel Gordis essay forwarded from a cousin who on most points is ultra-liberal, but for whom this piece seemed to resonate (we are Jewish):

http://www.danielgordis.org/Site/Site_Dispatches.asp

If it's unthinkable that more than half the world's Jews could live in Ahmadenijad's crosshairs, then we'd better figure out what we're going to do. The world won't stop him. Will we? What kind of power would we be willing to use to put an end to Iran's nuclear capabilities? Would be it moral to use weapons we've never used if that's what it would take? Would be it moral not to, if the future of the Jewish people is at stake? How much are the Jews willing to do in order to survive?


I am not sure which is more chilling, the inadvertently suicidal environmental stupidity contained herein or the fact that he has talked himself into considering this a *moral* act. I haven't slept properly since I got this.

The distance between Tehran and Tel Aviv is about like the difference between New York City and Tampa. I haven't looked up which way the winds blow there, but think about it: Say NYC decided to nuke Tampa. Ever been in NY watching the weather reports when a hurricane is coming up the coast? What does it take for the weather pattern to reach NY in some form, a few days?

I am not at all convinced that our representatives can or will act quickly enough to forestall this insanity. What can we do? What will we do?
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I see what you mean.
Thanks for the detail about the distance between Tehran and Tel Aviv, and the insights from your point of view.

I've been on the Web all day, but now I really want to go see what Israeli sources and others are saying on this specific topic. One news item dated January 7, 2007, that I came across already while doing research for the OP was quite scary on this point, though.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2535310_1,00.html

Revealed: Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran
Uzi Mahnaimi, New York and Sarah Baxter, Washington
ISRAEL has drawn up secret plans to destroy Iran’s uranium enrichment facilities with tactical nuclear weapons.

Two Israeli air force squadrons are training to blow up an Iranian facility using low-yield nuclear “bunker-busters”, according to several Israeli military sources.

(snip)

The Israeli government has warned repeatedly that it will never allow nuclear weapons to be made in Iran, whose president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has declared that “Israel must be wiped off the map”.

(snip)

Scientists have calculated that although contamination from the bunker-busters could be limited, tons of radioactive uranium compounds would be released.



It's that last paragraph I quoted that sends a chill up my spine. "Tons of radioactive uranium compounds" would be released! And that's what they admit to, probably a very conservative guesstimate. What about the Iranian nuclear materials that they would be hitting? Are they figuring that in?

What if a nuclear warhead missed its target and didn't go belowground deep into the bunker at all?

Seems there's no end to the insanity....


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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. There was an analysis of fallout from bunker-busters on Iran
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 03:01 AM by bananas
They would kick up a huge radioactive dust cloud which would fall on Pakistan and Afghanistan (where we still have troops). Israel would not be affected, northern India might be.
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_security/nuclear_weapons/the-robust-nuclear-earth-penetrator-rnep.html

Figure 1: Fallout from the use of RNEP against the Esfahan nuclear facility in Iran would spread for thousands of miles across Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. It would kill 3 million people within 2 weeks of the explosion and expose 35 million to cancer causing radiation.


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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
7. Not me - I have had 3 nights where I have had nightmares about em
they still scare me shitless and I will tell you the straight up truth - I still think about them nearly every day. But then I was a boy during part of the cold war and it stuck with me ever since.
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. vickitulsa - Guess you haven't heard of the Divine Strake
or the Downwinders of Nevada, Utah or Arizona. The are scared to death Bush and company are trying to explode a 700 ton bomb at the Nevada Test site. They have undergone 50 years of hell and cancer from the nuclear tests of the 50s to the 70s

Go to http://nativeunity.blogspot.com
'Divine Strake May Kill You' - This Is One Scary Read.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Yep, been reading about Divine Strake for awhile.
Even read that same article you cited!

I know at least the folks in that region are not complacent about the potential for a new radiation calamity from our very own bombs.

The very term "Downwinder" is frightening, and no one should have to live with such fear of the wind's direction....

I continue to track the story, and it makes me VERY angry, what they're trying to do there! :grr:
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Vicki - Native Unity is my site and they and I think he is going to pull it off, too.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
28. I love your site, Bobbie.
You've done a beautiful job there!

I so admire you for continuing to work as you're doing, and I hope your "screams from the rooftop" get some response.

Please know that you have a lot of people (like me) who are not so close to the planned, mis-named "Divine" Strake test as you are, hoping with you that somehow we can stop this insanity. Those evil bastards may pull it off but they're going to be getting a hell of a lot of unwanted attention over it if they do!

I don't think even uninformed Americans really think there is any such thing as a "safe" nuclear bomb. Let's keep trying to wake up more and more people to the seriousness of this threat -- I'm with ya all the way!


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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. I was 13 during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and all I have to do
is just hear those three words to experience an instantaneous, visceral reaction of cold, chilling fear.

I remember the "duck and cover" drills, and I recall the mood in my homeroom class the Monday after JFK spoke to the nation about the crisis, issuing his ultimatum to the Soviets. Several of us who had were more informed slowly gathered and were talking about it, asking each other if we thought they would target Ft. Sill not far away.

We were children frightened beyond our ability to cope with it ... yet our parents seemed no better equipped to help us out on that, either.

I've had nightmares too, lots of them back then and some that have cropped up more recently whenever I think about the increasing threat these days. In one of them right after I'd read a book about the Manhattan Project, I saw Oppenheimer watching the first nuclear test at Trinity, mouthing the words he reportedly spoke then, "I am become death, destroyer of worlds."

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. BFEE fired its nuclear weapons manager Linton F. Brooks
because of all the "security lapses" aka espionage .
Linton F. Brooks profile from SourceWatch.org
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Linton_F._Brooks

Mr. Brooks really was hot for the tactical nuclear devices, just as other groups were building 10 1/2 ton Fuel Air Explosive/FAE guided bombs with cute end times acronyms (MOAB)-but the real future is in Directed Energy Weapons/DEW for full spectrum dominance.

It sounds insane, at first-but it isn't tinfoil. It is part of a plan that more or less PNAC announced years ago and anyone even aware of them thought that was crazy too-until now. PNAC preaches the ideology of world dominance by the sole remaining military superpower with advanced tech-it's really the repeated folly of all human history, except that our planet and every living thing on it has no value to a culture of death.

In fact they (that have names) were called the crazies by many people that worked for decades to prevent nuclear war and were "rewarded" by being purged by the political appointees and politicized officers that became dominant after the Decider's administration aka HOMELAND(tm) was installed.

"Influencing Human Cognition: US Electromagnetic Weapons and Human Rights"
by Peter Phillips, Lew Brown and Bridget Thornton (Project Censored)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=PHI20070109&articleId=4396

What really is scary is that the true believers in this type of future are BFEE's Holy Warriors aligned with other misguided souls.

"Ten Things I Learned From The Pentagon's Prayer Team"
by Jeff Sharlet
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/46262/

"America's Holy Warriors"
by Chris Hedges
http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views06/0103-59.htm

Maybe, hopefully, vickitulsa, I'm wrong. But this is The United States of America in name only now, to me it's BFEE's HOMELAND(tm) ruled by a culture of death.
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. I'm glad to hear you beating your drum, Bob!
And thanks for the additional info and links. I think I'll go read those until I fall asleep for tonight -- fodder for new nightmares maybe?

Honestly, I DO believe we have a lot besides nukes to worry about and of which almost everyone knows nothing at all -- yet.

When we consider the PNACkers' love of secrecy in their evil planning and development, and the BFEE's mad desire to wipe out billions of innocents in furtherance of their goals, it's pretty easy to imagine that they have many secret projects well underway.

SECRECY is the real danger and the real key to their success, I believe.

When we just think about all we DO know and how dangerous those systems are, we can certainly figure that there is so much more going on behind the scenes....

I hope you're wrong, too, but I don't think you are! Keep beating that drum, Bob; you never know when something you say or write will catch on and news will spread like wildfire, waking a LOT of folks up, hopefully before it's too late.


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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Vicki - Don't think I am wrong - Damn it. I'm just a tad south of the Downwinders
and they have really gone through hell. I had no idea is was this bad -as I have lived in Arizona on and off since 1944 - until I started getting submissions from the Western Shoshone Tribe and a lady from Kingman, AZ.

I'm going to scream from the housetop about this to anyone who will listen.
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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 02:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. I remember watching The Day After
I was working as part of a team on a project with a then new company, and we were under the gun to get a new product out and were working that Sunday at the office, and we watched the movie on a TV at the office. I was to be working, with some interruptions, for that company, and for people at that company, for many years subsequently.

I remember in the early 1980's people were very, very concerned about possible nuclear war. I remember one of the propositions in the 1982 November election in California was a non-binding nuclear freeze initiative. I think it passed, if I remember correctly.

I think with the end of the Cold War people relaxed, since the Soviet Union and Communism were no longer going to be a threat. There was talk about a peace dividend. However the conservatives and hawks wanted American dominance now that the Soviet Union was out of the way and we were the only remaining superpower, and the Project for the New American Century was later born.

It now turns out that under * and the PNAC and the neocon hawks, the United States government is now the threat that the Soviet Union used to be.

I was already in my early 30's, well into adulthood, in 1983, and had gone through a few major job crises at previous jobs, and periods of unemployment. I was in 7th grade at the time of the Cuban missile crisis in 1962. It is hard for me to believe that 1983 is further in the past now than 1962 was then.
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. The Divine Strake is a test to determine the impact of bombing
an underground nuclear facility - in essence a prelude to Iran!
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
21. of all the scary things about Bush, his cavaliet attitude toward nukes is the most frightening . . .
I'm convinced that Bush is bound and determined to use nukes somewhere or other before he leaves office, just because he CAN . . . he's like a spoiled child with an overabundance of toys who's determined to play with each and every one of them at least once . . . unfortunately, he's NOT a child, and the toys he wants to play with could well hasten the end of life on the planet . . . (not that he gives a shit, mind you) . . .

Congress MUST initiate impeachment proceedings against Bush and Cheney, if only to keep them occupied enough that they won't have the time or psychic space to do things like bomb Iran . . .
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Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I have first hand knowledge as to what radiation poisoning
can do to the human body. I watched my husband die from a botched hospital procedure 25 years ago. It was horrible!!!
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
25. Just a few thousand nukes detonating
above ground could destroy all life on earth. I was shocked at reading this in John Gaddis' The Cold War. He gives an alternate possibility of what could have happened in the korean war when 300,000 Chinese came down to support north korea. He says america tactically detonated 5 nuclear columns along a forest range to destroy the onslaught and then russia retaliated on south korean cities which in turn the u.s. retaliated on Chinese cities and on and on. A disturbing possibility.
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Nuclear energy and Nukes cannot be seen so it is not real
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 03:58 AM by PhilipShore
Nukes and nuclear power cannot be seen, touched, or heard so therefore it's not real. The nukes just sit around in stockpiles -- as the Abramoff/ Libby Military-Industrial-Complex puppets, sell the ideas of wars via movies, TV and news programs.

In the USA Nukes is an unpopular topic -- so the Repukes, took advantage of that and created Jack Abramoff and Libby to start a new cold war against terrorism -- the Repukes created Bin Laden via the CIA so as to build up the military-Industrial-Complex.

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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
27. Still pretty highly 'respected' in Japan, I can tell you..
But then again, this tiny nation the size of California had 2 -count 'em 2 nukes dropped on 'em!

And who did that magnificent deed?

Why, the same country that is putting "freedom on march" all over the world!

The same country we all grew up being told was the "greatest democracy in the world"!

...Oh forget it, He he.. I'm just joking... He he...


After all, we ALL KNOW it was necessary. No one better than me! Hell, I KNOW these people. They're animals!

They were gonna arm Japanese GRANDMAS with bamboo spears. Millions of 'em! Did you ever see what a bamboo spear will do to you if you get one in the eye!!! It's NOT pretty!
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. Back during the Cold War days, it was purposed that
all the world's leaders be gathered and placed on an island in the Pacific. Then nearby, a nuke would be set off. That would allow the leaders to feel heat of the explosion on their face and maybe pushed around a bit by the blast wave. This would be done once a generation simply to remind those leaders of the power at their command.

These many years later, I still think that it is a good idea.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
31. kick
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The Witch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
32. K&R from someone who has been to Hiroshima.
I share your horror and your incredulity with regard to The Sum of All Fears. The movie I'd recommend is Barefoot Gen.

Nuclear weapons are not just big bombs.
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
33. I think the younger generation has or is too cynical...
...to care that much as they expect their world to be completely ruined anyway by global warming/economic crash/all out war and thus live in the moment.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. they may be right -- it's prioritization
when i first saw your subject header i thought "young people grew up without the cold war -- nuclear annhilation isn't the topic of conversation it used to be.

reading your post though, i think this is a salient point -- compared to the CERTAINTY of global warming and economic collapse, the possibility of a nuclear war has been prioritized downward.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
34. Strange How This Generation Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Bigtree, what an amazing and worthwhile read! Thank you
especially for providing an excellent overview of the successful opposition to the nuclear arms race madness of past decades.

I think we need the reminder that it was the untiring protests of untold numbers of "regular people" which resulted in nuclear non-proliferation and arms reductions treaties that backed the world away from the brink of destruction.

Thanks to determined populations around the world, governments were compelled to reverse course, and the terrible dread that had shaped our lives eased dramatically -- until George W. Maniac reawakened it!

I can also understand why, as others have pointed out in this thread, young people today would find the issue of global warming taking priority in their minds over nuclear weapons threats.

But I'm hoping most of them have NOT given up all hope of a viable future, living "in the moment" because of the dread they feel. Realistically, you can't very well go on for many years living only in the moment because adulthood requires some measure of planning.

My optimistic view of the future would have the young people of the world uniting with us older ones who see a definite causal link between any use of nuclear weapons and an acceleration of the pace of global warming.

I truly believe that all of us must decide to FIGHT -- and fight hard, unrelentingly, and loudly -- against the same powers that are behind both these threats to human survival.

We must do it soon, and do it with an all-out commitment, too. Because it seems to me that nothing short of such total commitment stands much chance of success in once again turning the madmen back from the brink before they destroy us all.

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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
35. A bombs versus H bombs
A tactical nuke is a fission device (A bomb) like what was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

A strategic nuke is a fusion device (H bomb) like what was tested at Bikini Atoll.

Fusion bombs are *far* more powerful than fission bombs, tens of megatons versus a few kilotons. The US may even have some sub kiloton tactical nukes but I'm not sure on that. I do know that during the Cold War the US developed nuclear cannon shells.

I think that is what people are confusing as "tactical nukes aren't real nukes".

Even tactical nukes do have a nasty radiation footprint though.
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BushOut06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
37. What are you talking about? Nukes make GREAT entertainment!
Just look at any number of popular entertainment shows. "24", "Sum of All Fears", "Black Sunday", "Peacemaker", "True Lies", "Terminator", etc.

People LOVE watching nukes go off!
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vickitulsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
38. So many thoughtful and informed responses on this thread,
and I appreciate the recs for more visibility, too.

After reading (till dawn!) much more on the topic at links you folks have posted here, I am more convinced than ever that the psychopaths in the White House are fully intent on using nukes in the very near future.

Even tired as I was, I just could not get any real sleep. And this morning I find I can't stop thinking about two things: the Divine Strake test on U.S. soil that seems inevitable now, and the likely use of EMR weapons on the American protestors who would probably turn out en masse in the streets after either that test or the use of nukes on Iran.

Thanks to Bobbieo and Bobthedrummer for alerting us urgently on these subjects, and I hope word spreads far and fast on both of them. After all, what else do we really have to fight back with except information?

No matter how futile our protests may sometimes seem, we have no choice but to keep trying!

I realize that in spite of our best efforts, we may yet awaken to a "Day After" that will rock the world and dash any semblance of global stability to pieces, courtesy of the Bush administration.

But the more the truth gets out, the better chance we have to avert the worst of catastrophes.

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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. .
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
40. There were mushroom clouds at 9/11, were nukes already used?
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
41. Ah, MAD
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
42. "The Day After" Was A Bit Tame...
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 03:31 PM by jayfish
for my taste. A real nuclear exchange would be much more devastating. For a look at the true power of fission and fusion devices make sure to check out "Trinity and Beyond". If you came of age post Cold War, it should scare the hell out of you.

http://www.vce.com/trinity.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_and_Beyond

On edit: I do think people have lost sight of the power of these monsters. My wife was one of them. We watched T&B together and she was shocked.

Jay
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blues90 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
43.  The entire thing still scares the hell out of me .
Perhaps I'm too sensitive , perhaps I am too involved with all the radio shows and the internet .

I am very concerned about this seemingly set in stone attack on Iran . somehow I can't avoid the posts on this subject even though I try not to think about it too much it has affected me to the point where I can't stop thinking about it .

This Iraq murder is still going on and the house is not doing enough to stop it and now I don;t feel they can . I can't even say how or if this a priority to them , they have their bunkers and safety nets all in place . Few of them have any personal stake in this occupation other than to use it as some sort of political gain .
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
45. There's a website all about Nuclear Weapons, Waste and stuff
it has all kinds of links to various government offices-well I tried using some of them and they lead nowhere. I tried the Office of Human Radiation Experiments connected ones that President Clinton authorized in 1994.

This site is worth posting and good for another kick.
http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nuguide/uebdoe.asp
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
46. You're SO reality-based.

Don't you know that we're in the postmodern era? All those lovely nukes will make GREAT copy for the avante garde satirists, also they are photogenic.

Think of the movies!
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