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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:13 AM
Original message
What Has Man Created?
Many of us say leave creating to god or God or the God, but man does create, man has constructed all but nature. Man has created the world where he lives and works. He has created this way of thinking that has led us to the edge of destruction. It is we who have created these out-of-control governments that lust only for power. It is we who have let our societies turn their backs on the people. We have a long history on this planet of oppression and one person or group telling others how they must live. Religion has pitted one sect against another, neighbor against neighbor. We fear what is different and shun it. Life for most people of the world revolves around a narrow --sometimes extremely narrow-- view of the world, this allows them to ignore the suffering, the humiliations and the hopelessness of others. We do not stop to think how our actions will affect other people, we have forgotten the commons and taken up an “every man for himself” way of thinking. This “greed is good” approach has led us away from our teachings, whether it is the Bible, the Koran, or other holy books. When you begin to look outside yourself, a new way of thinking will follow. It is time we come together to work on shared goals and values. Until we envision a future together we will be doomed to continue making the same mistakes over and over. We must take responsibility for our and our children’s future.

We must use knowledge and critical thinking to understand and solve problems in human terms. We have created and are creating young consumers who can’t add without a calculator or figure what percentage a third is. They are taught to take everything on faith no matter how outlandish or improbable. We trust that our leaders will make the “right” decisions and that they have our best interests in mind, when no such mechanism or plan exists. We leave it to our elected officials to have our vision. We can trust in these manmade powers that be, or move to the commons and use our democracy to make choices that benefit all instead of the few. We must see that if we work together towards a common understanding and goals, we can make a new construct that is healthy and life sustaining.

We seem to think we can operate outside the bounds of nature and win, that we can control all that we see. We think that what we didn’t create is here to serve us. We think that the minerals and the oil and the trees and the water and the air are all just ours, we think that we can do as we please with no regard for consequences. The earth can only absorb so much, then it will begin its mechanism to deal with it. We may not like the result. In fact it has been compensating all along, soon a major shift will be inevitable. We must drop our myths and throw out our preconceived notions. We must have vision beyond ourselves, to see not only what is but what could be. The Buddhist principle of starting each encounter anew with no leftover baggage or withheld anger is a lesson we might all think about applying. I’m sure this principle can be found in all faiths, it is a universal teaching. We must accept our differences and forget the past. The self and its desire to get even can be all-consuming. There is no revenge, only self destruction. Communication and diplomacy, whether on a personal or a national level, is required in order to have a vibrant society that nourishes all its people.

So what have we created? Everything, we have created all the good and all that is bad. All the weapons that kill. All the medicines that save. All the drugs that addict. All the companies that pollute. All that are clean. We are us, they are us, and we are all together, even George Bush. We must all begin to look deep into ourselves to find our own blindness, to uncover the prejudices that lie beneath. Only then can we go out into the world and build what needs to be built and tear down what has been built on shaky ground. We must be open to new ideas and different ways of thinking. We can harness the power of the sun and clean the atmosphere, feed all the people and create economies if the will is there. We can create whatever we want. All it takes is some vision.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. Man has created lots more men. Stop the breeding, dammit!
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 09:26 AM by HypnoToad
If we want to continue to freely breed, I suggest somebody create a procedure to travel to and terraform other planets. Or find technological solutions to the greenhouse effect... If a piece of plant can do it, why the hell can't we, who are capable of so much more?! I'll help, where can I get training and tools to make a dream a reality? Should I move to India, China, or Russia to get it? Can't seem to in the US due to insane costs, which is downright sad.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=6122344
The above link has more and a video we should all be watching; I don't care who made it.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Where can I get training and tools to make a dream a reality?
What I'm saying is look inside yourself. It is all there. If we all take a hard look at ourselves,I think we will find the answers. When it comes to our children and grandchildren there are no costs that should we too much.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. Which is it?
"We seem to think we can operate outside the bounds of nature and win, that we can control all that we see."

"We can harness the power of the sun and clean the atmosphere, feed all the people and create economies if the will is there. We can create whatever we want."

It can't be both.

Overall I agree with the tone of what you're saying, except for parts like that.

"Religion has pitted one sect against another, neighbor against neighbor."

"This “greed is good” approach has led us away from our teachings, whether it is the Bible, the Koran, or other holy books."

Again, which is it?

"Life for most people of the world revolves around a narrow --sometimes extremely narrow-- view of the world, this allows them to ignore the suffering, the humiliations and the hopelessness of others."

That's what happens with a specialzied world. We're also a small scale species living in a large scale reality. It's difficult to keep track of 6.5+ billion people period, especially when we're all trained to not worry about what we're not trained for.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. None of those things I wrote that you point at are "either or" things
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 11:12 AM by ktlyon
We CAN have both or all of the things I said.

We can harness the sun but we must play by natures rules

It is hard to deny that much suffering in the world falls at the feet of religion. Today in Iraq is an example of neighbor against neighbor. Even southern racism had a religious component and that is truly neighbor against neighbor.

The true teachings is in these books I listed are as valid today as any day in the past. One only needs to read to see. It is other men's interpretations of these scholarly writings that have confused it into this greed is good world we live in now. It is that we have let the money changers into the temple.

<<That's what happens with a specialzied world. We're also a small scale species living in a large scale reality. It's difficult to keep track of 6.5+ billion people period, especially when we're all trained to not worry about what we're not trained for.>>

We need to look deep into ourselves and find that need to control 6.5 billion people and forget it. Your final sentence makes one of my points for me. We are not trained to handle the complexity of the modern world. Our meager high school educated people don't have the skill necessary to solve the big questions that face us. This one place where we need to begin. Explaining complicated things to the masses so that we can understand them. So please look hard at what you can do to explain things, you seem to have some talent. We all have prejudices and attitudes that are holding us back from our true potential. Yours seems to be negativity.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Hit the nail with that one
"Yours seems to be negativity."

But that's ok, that's me. We're never going to reach perfection, so, have to play with the cards you're dealt.

"We need to look deep into ourselves and find that need to control 6.5 billion people and forget it."

With what? What mechanism will you be implementing to accomplish such a task?

I'm not sure I feel the need to control one person, other than myself, let alone 6.5 billion.

"We CAN have both or all of the things I said."

Didn't that thinking get us into this mess?

"We can harness the sun but we must play by natures rules"

Yet we're playing by our own rules. Our rules say that we can harness the power of the sun.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I've been thinking about this alot-
maybe it is not so much "our narrow view" of the world,

but rather our attachment to fear-

Life is a frantic search for ....satisfaction...- even the very rich (perhaps especially them) are never contented.

The accumulation of 'money'- 'power'- 'things'- is a never ending quest- those who have much more than they could ever begin to use, are then condemned to devote their lives guarding what they've hoarded, questioning if they are accepted for who they are, or because of "what they HAVE".

I have come to think of the "perfect world" as one where we humans understand that our own personal well-being is only sure,only possible, when YOUR well being is as important to me as my own.

I'm having a hard time saying this-
I believe...it comes down to making sure everyone has what they need- which allows the positive/life-giving-affirming/creative/UNselfish potential within in each one of us, to grow and flourish.

This sounds so ..lame... but I believe-

the wisdom of MLK's- injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere-

the truth of Gandhi's teachings-

the message behind the "golden rule"

Christ's do unto others-forgive me in like measure (just as) I forgive others-

are the Answers are in fact, the keys to 'heaven on earth'.

Why do people hurt each other? out of some need that isn't being met- be that acceptance, self-worth- material goods- etc. Why to people steal? Hate? Kill? Oppress?

Treating the earth and all that is in it with care and respect because we realize it is in our own best interest, and not just the 'right' thing to do, goes along with this.

What is our society 'rushing toward'?? What makes us continue to seek bigger, louder, fancier, more powerful, faster, stronger ______,_______ everything???!!!

When, like Dorothy in Oz, we've had the "power" with us all along-

We ARE home- we HAVE arrived.

Isn't it pat time to wake up and start living?



(hope this makes some sense)

peace- to all-
blu
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. thanks you are so right
When we finally see that we are all one, and the universe is us, than can we see that all suffering is our suffering.

Peace and love
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. thank YOU- it is good
to listen and understand, speak and feel heard.

Peace, love, and understanding is something we all can never have enough of-

thanks for the positive thoughts to start my day today-

blu
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Now that's a question
"What is our society 'rushing toward'?? What makes us continue to seek bigger, louder, fancier, more powerful, faster, stronger ______,_______ everything???!!!"

I don't think anyone has any idea what the goal is, but we have to get there as quick as possible.

What is the endgame? Is there an endgame? Once we get there, will we know it? If we get there, can we stop? If we stop, what then?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. there is
a yearning- an itch- a void- a place inside us, that never seems to find wholeness.

Sometimes, it seems we get a 'glimpse' of what it might be like- a taste of the fullness...

I wonder if we could take away the distractions that we keep putting on ourselves- if the energy we waste on accumulating, hoarding, controlling, making war, dominating, oppressing, manipulating each other- if that energy, time and combined creative ...inteligence.. were actually available, what humans might be able to accomplish/create/become.????


....
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Entropy
There is no perfect state to existence.

"I wonder if we could take away the distractions that we keep putting on ourselves"

"if the energy we waste on...controlling"

To take away all distractions would require massive amounts of control, which would waste energy from the intended goal(since controlling is a distraction), so we're still not getting ahead.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
17.  it is all about self-control
not controlling others, surroundings, or distractions

Life is about change and moving in directions. Nothing is permanent or perfect. It is all about the way you are going. You should look hard at the WAY you go.

Self control is never a waste of energy but it is control.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. No argument there
"Life is about change and moving in directions. Nothing is permanent or perfect."

That's how people lived for a long time. Then we figured out how to grow our own food, then we could stay in one place, control our surroundings, then control others as we expanded our surroundings because nothing is permanent, and here we are in the reality that is 2007. That reality being of more control, and not just of others, but of the DNA of all life for our benefit.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Thanks for hanging in there, but I fear little communication is
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 03:04 PM by ktlyon
taking place here. I get the feeling you are missing my points completely.
No matter how hard we try to control DNA or it's blueprint or anything else, we can not do so. Everything can and will be used for good and bad. Really there is no good and bad but that is another discussion.
I am talking about control in a personal way. We must be open and accepting of other ideas when we go out into the world.
We must get beyond the idea that we are in control of nature. When we use unsustainable growing methods like apply dangerous chemical fertilizers and pesticides eventually the system will fail. If we work with nature, do it natures way instead of mans way then something healthy and renewable can be created.

This piece is about creating and trying to forge a new future not continue the same tit for tat, "Ender's Game" kind of thinking that is controlling todays reality. When we begin to examine the self and see who we are then, and only then, can we begin to see what the real world is. In other words our pre-conceived notions and things we believe to be truths are all a construct and are keeping us from seeing. Once we see and remove these prejudges can we begin to see the world. If we spend all our time seeking revenge then revenge or getting even will consume. Until one understands ones self one can never understand someone else. We need to put down our differences and really try to understand each other and that begins with the self.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Wow just imagine
and get to work to make it
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. I believe it is part of the evolutionary process --
first, man walked upright and freed his hands. Then man taught himself to make crude tools and weapons with which he was able to hunt and to prepare meat. This increase in protein consumption gradually allowed man's brain to grow larger, his intelligence and ability to create grew with it.

Now we have come to a point where nature is selecting, within the human race, for intelligence over physical strength/ability.

It is now a matter of whether those who have the foresight to look ahead to the future will win out, or whether the lesser evolved will destroy us all before they get a chance.

There are good odds we may not see more human evolution, with the way things are going, but there is a chance that man will see the error of his ways and begin to mend them.

Remember, we may be the smartest animal ever to walk this earth (as far as we know), but we are not immune to extinction - it will come for us as it does to all animals.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Why do you think evolution is a straight line?
And a straight line to what?

"lesser evolved"

What does that mean?
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. I didn't say it was a straight line --
Either the evolution of the human race will continue, progressively, or something will happen that will either cause a mass extinction (possibly leaving behind some survivors to continue the process, possibly stepping back, possibly not) or those of superior intelligence will carry the species forward and those of lesser will die out.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. You did it again
"progressively"

"leaving behind"

"possibly stepping back"

"will carry the species forward"

Progress, behind, back, forward

If you didn't say evolution is a straight line, why are you using these words? Progress and evolution are not the same.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. There's no such thing as "lesser evolved".
Nor is there a predetermined end to evolution.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. So right, nature will have the last word
no matter how smart you are, it is very hard to see. Especially when you look within.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I agree --
we have some control, but when it comes right down to it, we are just another species inhabiting this planet. If we kill ourselves off, the planet will survive, the process will eventually start anew. It could take millions of years, but it will happen.

We have it in us to stop the chain of events leading to our extinction (as long as a natural event doesn't take care of it), but it is, as of now, unlikely that we will do so.

In the end, it's a matter of how important it is for us as humans to ensure the survival of the human race. The planet will survive, but we may not be here to see it.
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. Agreed! Humans = Liberals......Neanderthals = Conservatives
And they said Neanderthals were extinct.

Seriously, humans have evolved over the last few thousand years.
Racism is slowing going away.
Slavery it slowing going away.
Women may eventually be treated as equals.

We just still have a long way to go.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. lol
But you make good points - from an intellectual perspective we are making progress.
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. Humans create ideas
Everything around us is the result of an idea. Both the good things and the bad things. We take those ideas and change the world around us. There is nothing around us that was not created via an idea of some human.

Our reach is not just to manipulating the simple structures of material around us. We have changed the ecosystem of the world as well. To date this has largely been done in ignorance. But now as we use ideas to begin to grasp the effects of our actions hopefully we will be able to productive affect our ability to change the world environment.

Be wary when raising nature to a pedestal. Nature is not some friendly fuzzy thing. Nature is death and extinction. Nature is uncaring. Nature will wipe a species out and not even notice. Nature in many ways is our enemy. We must learn about it and create ideas on how to best interact with it such that we can preserve our lives as well as the lives of those species upon which we are dependent.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Interact?
"Nature is not some friendly fuzzy thing. Nature is death and extinction. Nature is uncaring. Nature will wipe a species out and not even notice. Nature in many ways is our enemy. We must learn about it and create ideas on how to best interact with it such that we can preserve our lives as well as the lives of those species upon which we are dependent."

If nature is death, extinction, uncaring, and our enemy, how can we interact with it? Don't we have to destroy it to preserve our lives? Don't we have to create a completely artificial world that bends to our demands?

In that one paragraph, we can see why Manifest Destiny worked so well. Why colonialism was as easy as it was. We just can't do it to people today. To grow, for progress to continue marching, something must be taken out of the way. Nature has always been a part of that, but now it's only nature that stands in the way of our ascent. I guess I'll see you on the other side, because we're not going to have a habitat much longer. Unless we cure death.
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. you scare me
I don't know where to begin this time so I won't.

Peace be with you
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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-02-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. The rules of nature are unchangeable but nature has flex.
Edited on Fri Feb-02-07 03:17 PM by ktlyon
The cold harsh reality that is "nature" is an unforgiving place.
Pedestal, I don't, but respect I do. By nature I don't just mean the outside, I mean the laws of physics and the harmony of the planets and universe. When you cross these laws, justice can be swift.

<<Everything around us is the result of an idea. Both the good things and the bad things. We take those ideas and change the world around us. There is nothing around us that was not created via an idea of some human.>>

Yes we are a construct, which means we do something about it. Reconstruct

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