FL storm survivors claim "gawd was there with them." Apparently She didn't give a shit about

[karlrschneider]

the people over in the next block who were killed. What sort of arrogant git claims Divine Providence saved them from the same meteorological event that wrecked their church and ended the lives of their neighbors? It's an interesting manifestation of insanity.

[Kutjara]

1. Unfortunately, it's at the core of a particular type of religious belief.

Messages of love, compassion and tolerance get filed on the "whatever" pile. All such people are interested in is that they are "saved" and everyone else isn't. It's self-satisfaction, parochialism and smugness lifted to cosmic law.

[aquart]

7. Well, thanks for your summary of Judaism

Which is based on survival of a disaster.

Sensitive, I thought.

[Kutjara]

29. That's a bit of a stretch.

In any case, taking my remarks as an attack on Judaism is bordering on the oversensitive, I'd say.

Actually, many religions have disaster myths at their heart. The myths appear to fill the need to explain why some people survive and other don't. Attibuting it to divine providence rather than dumb luck is just so much more spiritually satisfying. Also, believing that survivors to be morally superior to or "more worthy" than fatalities avoids the problem of God being capricious or (perish the thought) evil. Those people died because they deserved to.

Believing that God intervenes in daily life to aid and comfort those in need is harmless enough. Believing that God reaches down to punish the unworthy is anything but harmless.

[Kurovski]

80. And the interesting thing is that "coming home to Jesus" is something to look forward to.

Some people have a hard time making up their minds.

[roguevalley]

97. there are a lot of takes on religion, especially christianity. for one to

dismiss a whole philosophy or deride it because of a form of belief that these people have dismays me. Most of these people practice a heretical form of christianity, placing things out of order and throwing away or ignoring that which is at the heart of this religion. these people are heretics. not christians.
don't hold one responsible for the other.

[NYCGirl]

2. People who can't find another way to deal with the guilt that comes from being

alive when someone put in the same situation isn't, perhaps?

[Aviation Pro]

3. That's OK....

...God will square the books away later. Enjoy the infintesimal amount of time you have on Earth, honey, because eternity in a warm place beckons.

[karlrschneider]

11. I can't decide whether you're being sarcastic...or not.

:eyes:

[halobeam]

4. Sometimes it's just an expression.

Gawd.

[malaise]

5. It's a very stupid expression

because of its assumptions.

[halobeam]

22. so if they said it because of their beliefs....

you call their beliefs, assumptions...

if thats fair play then,

your comment that "it's a stupid expression" which is your belief, it then could be said that is quite presumptuous of you, couldn't it? Then followed up with the same kind of medicine you dish out, and someone calling your belief, stupid (because of its assumption, of course).

[malaise]

47. No the assumption is that this so called

god didn't spare the others. I don't care who believes what, but when there is a rational scientific explanation for any given storm, I don't accept mythical explanations.

If someone believes that a world view that is based on facts rather than faith is stupid, that's hardly my problem.

When a hurricane misses my island and destroys the one closest to me, the only reason that happens is because of the path the storm took. There are morons who argue that god spared this island because we are good people (a premise that is shattered when one looks at the murder rate). To suggest that is to assume that the people in the island that was wrecked are not good people. I never accept myth over rational answers.

[donco6]

26. It's a cruel expression.

How would you feel, seeing your neighbors on TV, giving credit to God for sparing you from some terrible devastation, when you just saw your mother or wife or daughter just get blown away by the same storm? It doesn't make any sense, and could very well destroy another person's faith.

It's a cruel expression, at best.

[karlrschneider]

33. There are some people who are sufficiently brainwashed that they'd say

"it was God's will"...this being AFTER THE FACT. But you can safely give big odds they'd be perfectly willing to pay a big insurance premium to -avoid- that scenario BEFORE it happened in order to avoid it.
And therein lies the delusion and hypocrisy.

[badgerpup]

50. GAWD spared them because GAWD likes them best...

...is often the subtext I get from this type of pronouncement.

Although this rationale kinda breaks down when you factor in that dying is the only way you're going to be eligible to get into Club Paradise and party with the Ultimate Power-That-Be...
and THAT'S supposed to be the goal and the whole point of 'having faith'. :shrug:

[donco6]

56. Yes, "It's God's Will," but I'll avoid it at all costs . . .

With State Farm. Hmmm.

[Fridays Child]

6. I've wondered about that, too, from time to time.

Such comments defy common decency and common sense. :(

[karlrschneider]

13. We get a LOT of tornadoes around here and the same kind of people say the same kinds

of things. It never seems to occur to them that their putative deity might just be telling them "YOU'RE NOT DOING IT RIGHT!"

The arrogance and self-aggrandization is mind-boggling.

[blonndee]

36. Blech, you're right. Around here it's astounding

the way people "think."

"I was the only survivor of 30 people on that bus that ran off the road. I just thank Gawd--I know he was with me and saved me for a reason."



:puke:

[karlrschneider]

38. Yep, the very same idea.

Brainwashed, basically - the imaginary deity gets credit for anything good but no blame for the bad shit. What craven idiocy.

[A HERETIC I AM]

8. I've always thought that the appropriate response to such statements would be.....

"God saved you and not your neighbor? Looks to me like god was trying to kill you AND MISSED!"

[karlrschneider]

9. Good one! (And maybe it's true!)

:evilgrin:

[Kingshakabobo]

16. Rats! You beat me to it. n/t

[malaise]

48. Touche!

:D

[HeeBGBz]

57. Heheh, that's what I said after Katrina

And after I was in a little F-0 tornado 4 months later, I started feeling like I was in that movie Final Destination.

[CBGLuthier]

10. And what kind of

Dumbass pisses on someone elses beliefs.

Give ya a hint, find a mirror and you will know.

[karlrschneider]

12. I piss on arrogance and hubris which are hallmarks of such behavior.

EOM

[badgerpup]

90. If someone believes that, fine. I won't call them on it.

They're entitled, and if it makes them happy, well...it's none of my business.

I just don't buy into it...and that's not "pissing on their beliefs" because I try to AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE any argument of that flavor.

[A HERETIC I AM]

14. Anyone who claims Divine Providence saved them from a tragedy that killed their neighbor......

has a flawed belief. Pointing that out is most certainly not "pissing on someone else's beliefs".

It is pointing out a truth.

It just astounds me that people will stand in the middle of utter devastation and claim that the hand of a higher power was involved in THEIR survival while the family next door is literally wiped out. Is it not possible that those killed in Central Florida early this morning weren't just as devout as anyone else?

No, the true dumb-ass is the deluded individual who confuses blind luck with supernatural intervention.

[scarletwoman]

17. Huzzah! Well-said! (nt)

[A HERETIC I AM]

18. Any time a woman says "Huzzah" to me it makes me want to have babies.....

ok...i cant have babies...I mean,.,.where's the fetus going to gestate? In a box?



BTW....a "Hubba Hubba" to your Huzzah!

[karlrschneider]

23. Well and truly spoken!

;-)

[donco6]

27. Excuse the expression, but AMEN! n/t

[LSK]

31. well said n/t

[glitch]

88. "There but for sheer dumb random luck go I" nt

[Cha]

15. People who think that they

are God's gift to the Universe?

[Nimrod2005]

19. Noticed how God destroyed the Chruch of God?

[northofdenali]

20. And it was the only church destroyed.......

This wasn't really a discriminatory storm - it took out a lot of The Villages which is a quite-upscale retirement community, along with the usual suspects - trailer parks.

Hope all our Central Florida DU'ers are ok.

[karlrschneider]

24. Yeah, of all the thousand or so to pick from...

:eyes:

[Wise Doubter]

52. Well, it wasn`t the right kind of church

They were`nt worshiping correctly. Anyone can see that. :evilgrin:

[TahitiNut]

21. Well, Gawd's in town for the Super Bowl, didn'tcha know?

:dunce:

[karlrschneider]

25. Yeah, but the big question. is He playing backfield, or on the LINE?

:evilgrin:

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

70. Backfield, line, no matter ...

... as long as he's playing for da Bears!

:rofl:

[WindRavenX]

28. why can't god cure amputees?

:shrug:

[karlrschneider]

30. Maybe a better question is why WON'T he?

Beats the shit outta me.

[WindRavenX]

32. I always ask religious people that when they get annoying

The responses are, well, priceless.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

72. She does cure amputees.

She just cares about starfish more than people.

:)

[WindRavenX]

99. ROFL

:thumbsup:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. And God Bless Them. Shame On You For Mocking Them For It.

Seriously. I think this OP is pathetic in its tone of intolerance and unjustified anger.

[karlrschneider]

35. I am not an it, I am a he, and I am still waiting for a sensible answer.

Do you have anything to contribute aside from ad hominems?
edit: You have the right to believe in as many deities as you wish. I'm simply asking how you can rationally justify it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. It Is About Your Tone Of Intolerance And Hatred Towards Those That Believe Differently.

Like I said, I found the OP to be pathetic and ignorant in its tone.

And hey, here's something else you obviously didn't know: OP can stand for opening post too. :hi:

[karlrschneider]

39. Uh, I know what OP as in opening post means, I made it.

Oh, I see, you're making the distinction between Opost and Oposter. How very clever. Kinda like
'love the sinner, hate the sin'?

In any case, I reserve my right to discriminate against stupidity. Not that you're implicated.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. Your Attack On Those Who Have A Religion As Being Stupid Shows Your Utter Ignorance And Intolerance.

Intolerance such as that which you have just displayed should be nothing short of condemned. It's simply so small minded.

[Selatius]

81. Sorry, but claiming divine intervention simply because...

your neighbors were wiped out and you weren't is the height of grotesque arrogance. The likelier scenario is that the person survived due to chance.

[Roland99]

64. Uh, the OP is pointing out the utterly ridiculous, selfish, and arrogant attitude of that person.

Sheep: "Oh, God is a kind and benevolent being for He saved us from the horrible storm. Saints be praised we're alive and ok. Our kind God wouldn't want to see anyone hurt."

Reporter: "Uh, your neighbors the next street over were blown 200 yards away, were decapitated and have had 2x4s thru their stomachs. Plus, the church where you worship that God was completely destroyed."

Sheep: <blank stare> <pause> "I thank God for his kind mercy that I'm alive!"



:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

75. No, The OP Was Being Needlessly Bitter And Intolerant.

I find intolerance and bitterness towards innocents to always be disgusting and ignorant, just as I find your assertion that those who have any faith are sheep. Pretty pathetic, actually.

:hi:

[Roland99]

77. Way to twist my own words into a gross generalization.

Bravo.

I was referring to that type of person referenced in the OP. The type of nutcase fundie that believes one day mankind will find Noah's Ark on some mountain in Turkey or that the Grand Canyon was formed almost instantaneously in some massive worldwide flood. The type that believes God wants us all to hate anyone who's a homosexual or wants a progressive tax structure. The type of people that just KNEW Terri Schiavo wasn't brain-dead.

I have no respect for anyone that blindly follows any ideology.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

79. I Twisted Nothing. But The Sentiment Was Twisted. n/t

[Roland99]

83. mmkay. yeah. right.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

91. You never fail to amaze me, OMC.

Never.

:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

93. That's Cause I'm Amazing. Thanks For The Compliment And Approval.

And are you feeling ok? You look a little green and your eyes are twitching.

:rofl:

[Scout1071]

41. Sorry, but it's really kind of shitty thing to analyze the statements

of people who's entire lives, homes and work places have been decimated.

Wrong time to make your point IMO. I have been near many tornados and it's just not funny. I'm not all that religous and I sure as shit have prayed to survive that kind of weather.

Sometimes, you just have to believe.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. The Disgusting Display Of Intolerance Is Pathetic.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scout1071]

84. Wow...off-topic much?

What does this lady saying "thank God" because she survived a tornado have to do with you being gay?

Absolutely nothing.

Don't get me wrong, intolerance is despicable. And your intolerance towards anyone of "faith" isn't any less despicable.

Your post was extremely offensive - and I'm not even religious.

[Occulus]

86. Give me a reason why I should care n/t

[Scout1071]

87. You don't have to care.

If degrading people who have just lost their homes, jobs and family or neighbors is your thing, than I that is your right.

But, in my opinion, if you want to walk around filled with hate, you are no better than them.

You get what you give.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. Wow. What A Disgusting Display Of Ignorance That Was.

[theHandpuppet]

96. Then why don't you stop?

Seems like a simple solution unless you truly enjoy engaging in such public displays of self-flagellation. Of course, I guess it does beat stabbing oneself in the eyeball with an icepick.

Carry on.

[Bluebear]

44. Who's saying it's funny? I just don't get why she thinks God saved her...

...but 18 other people from her town were killed. It's kind of shitty for a survivor to imply that God saved her but killed her neighbors.

[LeftishBrit]

61. I agree; and I'm an atheist

I don't personally like the expression, but these are people who have been through a horrific experience, and are relieved to have survived. Many of us might say "Thank God!" if we had narrowly escaped death or disaster - even if we don't believe in God. It's just an expression, and one that these survivors were doubtless brought up on. I don't think they're implying that others were rejected by God or deserved not to be saved - they're just not analyzing their use of language in that way. I just wish them all the best in getting their lives back into some sort of shape.

[Stuckinthebush]

78. I disagree

of course, it depends on the tone of the question, but I think the OP has a valid point. In order to better understand human behavior and beliefs, sometimes we have to step back to 30,000 feet and observe with a critical eye.

It is interesting that certain belief systems allow the believer to focus on a personal relationship with a deity to such an extent that he or she ignores the inverse consequences of such beliefs. Yes, it is hard and some may say callous to critically analyze human behavior after such devastation, but I'd propose that it isn't off limits if done in a respectful way.

We will probably see similar belief systems after the Super bowl tomorrow when a football player will thank his deity for letting him win without regard for the logical inverse that it means his deity abandoned the other team. Yes, these two experiences (devastating storm v. football game) are totally different in terms of consequences, but the belief system revolving around survival in each is comparable.

I WILL agree with you that it is totally inappropriate to mock people for their beliefs, but a critical analysis of beliefs can be useful in understanding ourselves. It is unfortunate that this critical analysis can occur after such a terrible event such as a killer storm, but that is a time when raw emotions are most evident and open for analysis.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

92. And these people are being dumbasses for saying how God saved them and yet, oh, their neighbors are

finished.

They call atheists selfish. At least I do not go around praising God for saving me and killing my neighbors.

[redwitch]

43. I heard her too and had the exact same thought.

self absorbed much lady?

[orleans]

45. that always drives me crazy. in this case i think: if god was with

you then why the hell did he do all this to you? why did he put katrina on the gulf coast?

because you're all bad and you deserve to be punished? is your god a mean, brutal god?

i thought god was supposed to be kind and loving.

how was god kind and loving with the tornados?

[tuvor]

46. Aw, give her a break.

Or have you walked the proverbial mile?

[Hubert Flottz]

49. They will be back in bidness as soon as the rattlesnake round up

is over!

[lonestarnot]

55. LOL

rattlesnake roundup indeed.

[DarkTirade]

51. Same kinds of people who thank God that they won their sports game.

[Control-Z]

62. Same kind of people who "group pray"

before a game.

I've always wondered who wins when both teams pray? The one that prayed the hardest and the best?

[The Count]

53. "Why me?" screamed that skater when hit - earning my lasting disdain.

Why not you?

[blue cat]

58. I love your count/sig line n/t

[The Count]

60. Thanks!

:hi:

[Control-Z]

65. I had the same reaction.

I guess I should have had a little sympathy for her. Couldn't find any, though.

[lonestarnot]

54. I've been listening to that crap this a.m. myself. What is wrong with these bushitlers?

[Hailtothechimp]

59. It just wasn't HER TIME is all.

Seriously. When it's YOUR TIME there's nothing to be done about it. And for some in Florida (but not this woman) it was THEIR TIME. HER TIME is coming, as is all of ours. Father Time remains undefeated.

[Roland99]

63. Because they are mindless sheep. "God has a plan for us all but he gave us free will"

The people that believe that shit will spout about anything.

Hell, you could them a UFO from Vulcan wiped out the town with its Zebulon Phasers and they'd probably believe it.

[originalpckelly]

66. Of course that church which was blown away...

now that didn't have "Divine Providence(tm)". Of course, no one was in it at the time, so maybe God was working in a mysterious way.

[Midlodemocrat]

67. I've always wondered why that particular brand of "Christian"

doesn't essentially embrace death rather than run from it.

:hi: Karlschneider, how ya' doin'?

[originalpckelly]

68. Now, I wonder that too. If they're going to Heaven...

why in hell are they so afraid of dying?

[Midlodemocrat]

69. Seriously. I'm a Christian and I don't get it at all.

If reaching Heaven and seeing the face of Jesus is the pinacle for these particular zealots, why the prayers and fear about dying?

Me, I'm shit scared, and I won't deny it.

[butterfly77]

73. I saw a mother and her two sons...

who were worried that something happened to each other after they found each other the only thing they were discussing after realizing that they were alright was "Go Bears"

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

74. Storm survivors will say anything ..

After something like that, they're probably in some degree of shock. Physical, mental, psychic shock. The whole world changed in a few seconds.

Then some ghoulish reporter sticks a camera in their face, wanting to use grief to increase ratings. Don't expect thoughtful, correct answers for some time.

If you've ever seen the sky turn dark green and start churning, well, it brings out some primal thoughts that we have no words for. "Luck" or "God" or "Awe" will do. Even "Oh, shit!" can be a prayer.

[YDogg]

76. If I had been in their shoes, I'd look for some explanation, too.

It's easy to lob insults from a distance.

[Cerridwen]

82. "There but for the Grace of God, go I"

It's a fairly common turn of phrase; mostly spoken by people, whom I believe, would probably bite off their tongue before saying it if they understood what it is they just said.

What they said was

1) I have God's Grace (cool beans)
2) therefore I am doing well (however 'well' is defined)
3) They are not doing well (we've just passed judgment and found their circumstances don't conform to our standard of 'well')
4) therefore 'they' must not have God's Grace (uh, oh)
5) which sometimes means that 'they' are not a good person otherwise they would have God's Grace, wouldn't they?

Cliff notes version: they aren't a good person or they would have God's Grace and not be in such bad shape.

Most of us don't pay attention to what we say or how it can be interpreted; the recent Biden/Obama dust up comes to mind. We engage our mouths without having taken the time to think of the words and how they can be parsed.

I'm not sure if we're ignorant, we're lazy or we just don't care; or perhaps some combination thereof. Geez, they're only words, after all. Words aren't really that important or we would have, oh, I dunno, put the protection of them in U.S. Constitution or something. Oh wait! We did. Hmm, you think the framers knew that words have power?

In case you can't tell, I find it ironic that one of the most sacrosanct documents we have here in the U.S. recognizes the importance and power of speech, yet, "We, the People" will argue against that same importance and power of speech and the words which comprise speech when it means we have to examine our own speech. Words have power. Why else do we discuss Democrat versus Democratic? Why debate the meaning and the implication of 'liberal' and 'progressive'? All words have power; not just the ones we cherry-pick at our own convenience.

Oh, and context and tone matter. Ever had a parent tell you "don't speak to me in that tone of voice" or have you or anyone you know ever said "it's not what you said, it's how you said it"? Ever had someone tell you or have you ever told someone that what they said was 'inappropriate' or 'uncalled for'? I know, I know, it's "hard work" "watching what we say" and how we say it. Personally, I think it's worth it.

If it's important to understand the power of Democratic versus Democrat, why isn't it also important to understand the use and context of all words and speech? (asked in general, not of the OP)

Oh well, hey, ya know "there but for the Grace of God, go I."

[Control-Z]

98. How many times I have said

"Oh my god" while I have no belief in god. It is a knee jerk reaction. A habit. More and more I go out of my way to say what I mean. In this case it would be "oh fuck".

You are right about the power of language.

I do wonder how many people mean what they say in these circumstances.

Sadly, I think many of these people really do believe they are god's special friend.

[ChiciB1]

85. I Live Here... And One Of My First Thoughts Was... And May I Be FORGIVEN

by the one who forgives, THE CHURCH was leveled! What kind of message was being sent here? I swear, with all the turmoil and death it was a thought I had and kind of felt I shouldn't repeat it to everyone.

Having been raised as an Army Brat & a very DEVOUT CATHOLIC, I sometimes wonder why I feel so conflicted about BOTH of these organizations anymore!!

Having decided by the age of 24 that NEITHER of them were something I wanted to be a part of, I went in search of spiritual reality! I know I don't have answers for many many things, but "wing-nuts" do make me a little "hinky" at times!

So again, Forgive Me for any negative vibes I may feel about some of this. I mean no harm, just have other games I enjoy playing.

[Limelight]

94. You're kidding right?

Let's see. A tornado smashes the homes all around you, killing friends and neighbors... people who are a great deal like you... and you live, perhaps even your home comes through without a scratch. Sounds like devine providence. Your feeling that it's an arrogant statement isn't anything they said, but your off base assumption that they're claiming they were spared by a higher power cuz they're better than everyone else as that could be the only thing arrogant about what they're heart is telling them about how they managed to be one of the lucky ones that made it through. I haven't read any of the quotes, but I doubt ANYONE said that.

You're also confused on what was actually destoyed when it cames to the place of worship that was obliterated with a lot of other buildings. You're confusing THE church with the church building. The true church is the PEOPLE who believe which goes far beyond those 4 walls that were knocked down in the storm. And being that I saw some of the reports and the members of that destroyed church building stated plainly that they would be in the parking lot of that devestated building tomorrow morning, still giving God praise despite it all, I'd say The Church made it through just fine.

That's the grace of God whether you believe it or not, whether you like it or not.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. Thank You.

:applause:

[Broken_Hero]

100. Locking

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, or other highly-sensitive personal issues, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

Thanks,
petersond
DU Moderator