"We should withdraw from Iraq by 2009" - well no wonder you supported the war

[mdmc]

Hillary Clinton recently stated that Bush should end the war before he leaves office.

No wonder she supported the war! She thinks that the neo-con time table (war will last three weeks, or months. It would never last as long as three years:eyes: ) can be kept, even if it is now overdue.

Let me be clear DU. I opposed this war because I knew if we overthrew the Iraqi government, we would need to occupy Iraq for decades, not months.

When you supported invading, you supported rebuilding. You supported defending the new govt. through a civil war. You placed our security in the hands of our enemies.

We made a serious mistake when we used violent force to rid Iraq of WMD. Those that supported this war and now want to bail make me sick.

There are no good solutions in Iraq. We either need to admit defeat and cut and run, or add 200,000 new troops to the battle. Both courses of action suck. Both make us less safe. Both are failures.

Support of this invasion makes baby Jesus cry.

[HereSince1628]

1. Accept reality. The US has already lost Iraq.

The original goals cannot be achieved...many of them were phantoms and shadows in the first place.

We have already made manifest to the world that despite our technology and its capacity to multiply the effectiveness of each warfighter, when war turns into street fighting, every single US soldier is just a single soldier. And as an insurgient you can kill them in favorable numbers.

The terms of success are now being renegotiated among the former Hawks in the administration so that THEY can achieve retreat under terms akin to Nixon's "Peace with Honor."

[acmavm]

12. There was only ONE original goal. One. To invade and occupy the

Middle East and make it into an area totally under US/UK domination.

The end.

[HereSince1628]

13. Well, that one has proved to be unteneble, too. Hasn't it?

Rather than wasting more blood, lives and treasure, it's time to give it up. There is no more national interest for us to salvage. The way out is simple...turn around and leave.

The only reason for staying is protecting Cheney and Bush from having to admit defeat.

The military already knows it can't win and they've said so. They shouldn't be asked to die until Bush/Cheney leave office just to save the idiots the embarrassment of admitting the tragic mistake they foisted on the nation.

[acmavm]

16. You betcha! The West has tried it time and time again. And you would

think that the lessons of the past would tell the murderous greedy thugs that it just cannot be done.

[Grillydad]

2. Valid Points

But what is missed inthe rhetoric is that we need to declare this adminsitration's diplomatic failures/defeats. The military won. We lost in the choice to go without appropriate diplomatic backing and support so that the international community will not help rebuild and disengage from Iraq.

[mdmc]

4. Yeah, Murtha hit on that

:kick:

[lonestarnot]

3. Cat yack! 2009! Yack yack yack.

Hillary Hillary Hillary... Al Gore needs to step in and stop this drivel.

[joe_b]

5. There is some middle ground

between "cut and run" and "escalate." Dennis Kucinich touches upon it in his 12 point plan. Basically, the US announces a date for complete withdrawal -- 6 to 9 months down the road. Get the UN involved in mediating between the various parties to see if a reconciliation is possible. Also bring Iran, Syria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia into the discussion. This approach would remove the motivation of the insurgents who are fighting just to get the US out of Iraq. It would also make clear what everyone knows -- if there's no reconciliation, the place is going up in flames. So there might be a motivation to solve issues peacefully to avoid a conflagration. These people did live together in peace before the US showed up, so there is reason for hope in this approach. The Iraqis themselves would then deal with al Qaeda and the other outsiders -- there are many indications the Iraqis hate al Qaeda and would get rid of them.

If everything went according to plan, it would be an ideal solution for the US, Iraq, and the region. What are the chances of bringing it off. Rough guess 25%. But it's the only real solution out there.

If it doesn't work, that would be unfortunate, but we would be out of Iraq nonetheless.

The real problem here is Bush doesn't want to leave, so he presents the two extremes as the alternatives -- "cut and run" or "escalate," knowing full well the catastrophe that would follow from just picking up and leaving. He still has his eye on the oil prize.

[mdmc]

9. thanks for the post

I am a big Kucinich fan myself.

[LynnTheDem]

11. "The real problem here is Bush doesn't want to leave"

Exactly.

Regardless how many Americans die, regardless how many Iraqis die, regardless how unsafe he continues to make us all...bush doesn't want to leave.

George W. bUsh; Oil pResident:

"I know some Americans don't think that is a threat. I view it as a threat because — and the reason it's a threat is I can conceivably see a world in which radicals and extremists control oil. And they would say to the West: You either abandon Israel, for example, or we're going to run the price of oil up. Or withdraw…"
http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/story?id=2594541&page=2

And his favorite criminal minnion:

"But under present conditions, withdrawal is not an option. American forces are indispensable. They are in Iraq not as a favour to its government or as a reward for its conduct. They are there as an expression of the American national interest to prevent the Iranian combination of imperialism and fundamentalist ideology from dominating a region on which the energy supplies of the industrial democracies depend.
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?section=opinion&xfile=data/opinion/2007/january/opinion_january62.xml

[joe_b]

6. The one thing that bothers me about Hillary

on Iraq is that she never mentions any moral dimension to the war. All her criticisms are of he tactical decisions and the intelligence. Her attitude is very clinical and detached. With 3,000 soldier and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis being killed because of manufactured intelligence, there's a moral dimension to this war. Those people were all killed in a violation of the law.

And I would expect some candidate somewhere to say "what we've done is immoral and we have to stop it." But no candidate has done so. It's bothersome.

[WinkyDink]

8. "...very clinical and detached." THAT is why I describe her as cold, and not of the people.

[WinkyDink]

7. We wouldn't be "defeated"; we would simply be ENDING THE OCCUPATION.

I, too, knew enough to protest and march pre-Invasion. Whom does HRC think she's kidding, with her new-found and new-faux "I'll end this war" prattle??

How many will die in the next 12 months??

[MonkeyFunk]

10. that's not what she said

c'mon

[mdmc]

17. what did she say?

She did say this. She said Bush shouldn't leave the Iraq war for the next pres.

[MonkeyFunk]

18. If you don't know what she said

you shouldn't start a thread about it.

[mdmc]

19. that is what she said in IA

unless you interpret it otherwise.

[MonkeyFunk]

20. Only

somebody trying to smear her would interpret it the way you did.

She realizes, correctly, that it take 60 votes in the Senate to accomplish such a thing. She says the votes aren't there now, but if congress does NOT end the war soon (which she favors), then SHE would end it when she becomes President.

That doesn't mean she WANTS the war to go into 2009. It's a fox-worthy smear.

[mdmc]

21. She said that Bush shouldn't leave this war to the next President.

In 2009 Iraq will be just as unstable as it is now.

I am not saying that she wants it to go on. It is on.

My point was that I opposed this war because I knew it would take decades to turn Iraq into a stable, unified, pro west democracy. If there was any chance that we could exit in 2009 totally "mission accomplished", then I might have supported the war. I would have supported this war if I thought there was even a remote chance that military conflict in Iraq would make us safer. I knew it wouldn't!

I know Hillary wouldn't have started this war ( :eyes: ).
I know that she would have opposed it if she knew about no nukes / wmd (again :eyes: ).

I thought FOX / rupert murdock was now supporting Hillary with fundraisers.

[mdmc]

24. Am I right?

If you want to defend her, that is cool. I am sure that she will win in 2008. She will be better then Bush.

My point is that the war would require decades of occupation to result in success (success = a pro west, unified, stable, democratic Iraq). If Hillary thought that we would have victory after only 5 years, then she has drunken too much neo-cool aid.

[MonkeyFunk]

25. You seem to think

that she's perfectly happy to have the war go on until 2009. That is not true, and does not reflect her actual words on the subject.

She said that IF the war was still going on in 2009, as President, she would end it.

Frankly, I don't see HOW one could reach the conclusion you reached unless one was determined to purposely misinterpret her.

[mdmc]

26. No, I think that this war would take many decades, not a couple years

I opposed the war because I knew that it would take multiple decades for Iraq to be turned into a stable, unified, pro-west, democratic Iraq.

If Hillary thinks that this war can be over in a couple years, then she has drunk the neo-con kool-aid.

There are no good choices in Iraq.

Hillary says "IF" the war is still going on... Where the fuck does she think the war is gonna go? Does she think a stable, unified, pro-west, democratic Iraq is gonna evolve in the next year?

Of course the war will be going on in 2009. If we haven't admitted that a pro-west, stable, unified, democratic Iraq is not gonna happen by 2009, we are just gluttons for punishment.

I don't think that Hillary wants us to be in Iraq. I know that many Americans knew that this was a mistake, and worked to oppose the invasion. I know that Hillary did not oppose the invasion. I know that she "supported the troops" :eyes: , but she didn't take it to streets. She enabled the war.

[porphyrian]

14. "We made a serious mistake when we used violent force to rid Iraq of WMD."

If only there had been any WMDs, which is precisely what this administration was told, but chose to ignore and lie to Congress about.

[earthlover]

15. by 2009?

Begs the question...if Clinton is gonna propose something about global warming would she DEMAND some action within a hundred years? Sigh....

[Imagevision]

22. I believe Kucinich is right, stiop the funding, pull the plug now! Get the troops home N-O-W!

screw waiting for Hillary to be elected, too many "sacrifices" made for no valid reason! total bullsh*t!

[mdmc]

23. I like DK's plan a great deal

but there are no easy answers. There are only shitty choices.

[Disturbed]

27. "Iranian combination of imperialism and fundamentalist ideology"

The Bush Regime combination of imperialism and fundamentalist ideology is exactly why the US Occupation will continue while he is still the King and Congress will keep throwing $Billions down the rat hole.

[mdmc]

28. I agree with your assessment sir

:kick:

[mentalsolstice]

29. Her exact quote

"I want to be very clear about this: If I had been president in October 2002, I would not have started this war," she said at the Democratic National Committee's winter meeting, the first chance for the party's candidates to trade direct political blows.

"If we in Congress don't end this war before January 2009, as president, I will," said the New York senator and former first lady.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hillary-vows-to-end-iraq-war/2007/02/03/1169919565880.html

Interpret it however you want to...

[mdmc]

30. Thank you for the quote, but the OP were about other remarks.

I was actually referencing her remarks when she was meeting and greeting in Iowa.

She said that it was irresponsible of Bush to leave the war for the next President. That is what I'm talking about.

As far as her winter meeting remarks-
If I had been president in October 2002, I would not have started this war. Nice. She is sane.

If we in Congress don't end this war before January 2009, as president, I will. We could end the war now if we admit the the neo-con victory is not achievable. As soon as we admit defeat, we can move on. If she thinks that she can leave Iraq in 2009 and leave with Iraq being a stable, pro west, unified, democratic Iraq, she is on acid.

She must either admit that the war has been lost, or that she can run it better:eyes: