These aren't lightly armed and armored mini-copters and transporters the Iraqis are shooting down

[NNN0LHI]

Apache attack helicopters are flying tanks.

http://www.thedailystar.net/2007/02/04/d70204013115.htm

>>>One helicopter was struck by heavy machine gunfire but continued flying, the witnesses said. The other helicopter banked sharply and flew back toward the source of fire, apparently to attack the target.

But that helicopter was also struck by ground fire, exploded in a ball of fire and crashed, the witnesses said. The other helicopter flew away, they said. The witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity, fearing for their own safety.

The United States has lost more than 50 helicopters in Iraq since May 2003, about half of them to hostile fire.

However, the loss of four helicopters since Jan. 20 has raised new questions about whether Iraqi insurgents are using more sophisticated weapons or whether U.S. tactics need changing.<<<


They are like the Hind helicopters the Afghan Mujahedeen were shooting down with Stinger shoulder fired missiles supplied by us. The Stingers are what made the USSR abandon Afghanistan.

I wonder if our government would tell us if they suspected Russia was suppling the Iraqis with SAMs? There isn't much we could do about it if they were.

I just have a feeling that Putin has not forgotten what happened in Afghanistan.

Don

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. I guess I can understand how Bush liked what he saw in Putin's soul. They are alike.

The pre 1989 USSR Premiers could have only dreamed of such an enormous U.S. military Achilles heel. (Gorbachev excepted).

MKJ

[Cooley Hurd]

2. "Russia was suppling the Iraqis with SAMs..."

...and they're being purchased with Saudi money sent to the Sunni insurgents:

Saudis reportedly funding Iraqi Sunni insurgents
Updated 12/8/2006 7:29 AM ET

CAIRO (AP) — Private Saudi citizens are giving millions of dollars to Sunni insurgents in Iraq and much of the money is used to buy weapons, including shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, according to key Iraqi officials and others familiar with the flow of cash.
Saudi government officials deny that any money from their country is being sent to Iraqis fighting the government and the U.S.-led coalition.

But the U.S. Iraq Study Group report said Saudis are a source of funding for Sunni Arab insurgents. Several truck drivers interviewed by The Associated Press described carrying boxes of cash from Saudi Arabia into Iraq, money they said was headed for insurgents.

<snip>

In one recent case, an Iraqi official said $25 million in Saudi money went to a top Iraqi Sunni cleric and was used to buy weapons, including Strela, a Russian shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile. The missiles were purchased from someone in Romania, apparently through the black market, he said.

Overall, the Iraqi officials said, money has been pouring into Iraq from oil-rich Saudi Arabia, a Sunni bastion, since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq toppled the Sunni-controlled regime of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
</snip>

:grr:

[annabanana]

5. Has anyone told Georgie-pie that Bandar Bush is

shooting up American kids?

Is this one of those things where his 'handlers' nervously eye each other and leave the bad news for some day when His Petulance is in a better mood?

[Benhurst]

6. Yeah, like Bush hasn't already decided whose side he's on.

[Downtown Hound]

7. Yeah, but I have an idea:

LET'S GOT TO WAR WITH IRAN!

[izzie]

3. Well who ever took over the Afghans? I also think this

We have lost the Middle East. Even if they liked us a little before I am sure they hate us all now. Seems some one has had some one in their family killed because of Bush and I am sure they will recall it for years. They are still mad about WW1 but do not laugh at that. I knew people who were mad about the Civil War in this country and did not for get I was a Yankee in the South and that was in the '60's.

[tanyev]

4. Downed Choppers - Saudi Citizens Funding Shoulder Fired Rockets

Interesting thread from Friday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=112731

[librechik]

8. yep==but Shrub wants you to think it's Iran

thus the thunder from the Wurlitzer. "19 Saudis take down the WTC= Attack Iran." "Saudis funding SAMs in Iraq= attck Iran."

Seems logical, according to their silly ideology.

[Joe Chi Minh]

9. What happened to all those, "It is believed to have been caused by

a mechanical failure...." footnotes?

I think they must have got a grip of those grease-monkeys and tightened up their standards of engine maintenance. And now the Iraqis have suddenly changed from being like the German soldiers in the films who couldn't shoot a turkey in a barrel, into Colonel Douglas Mortimers, late of a regiment of sharp-shooters in the Carolinas. If it's not one thing, it's another!

PS: For those who don't get it, the ridicule is not flippant, and above is not a frivolous comment on the deaths of the American service people involved, it is aimed at the MSM, who are now apparently not as inhibited about telling the truth, sometimes, as they were before the last election.

[moodforaday]

12. I wouldn't be so sure about MSM and the truth

Look: before the fiasco that is Iraq could no longer be hidden, it was expedient to explain downed copters as mechanical failures - it helped downplay the threat and the losses in Iraq.

Right now though, if you can explain one or two or three downed helicopters as the work of insurgents using Iran-supplied weapons... see where it's going? You can't raise the "death to Iran" spirit to proper levels just because your choppers are falling apart. If you're Bush, right now it doesn't pay to downplay the threats - it pays to magnify them.

[Joe Chi Minh]

13. Yes, it sounds plausible.

[karlrschneider]

16. I think you meant to say "until" instead of "before", nu?

:-)

[KG]

10. i've been wondering when the shoulder fired SAm would start to play a part in this occupation.

as mention before, stingers turned the tide in Afghanistan.

[TahitiNut]

11. Just because they'd be Russian weapons doesn't mean Russia supplied them.

The international arms trade is deliberately fungible - in service to "free enterprise." While we wallow in propaganda here in the US, most people are ignorant of the fact that the US is the world's #1 supplier of armaments, both in terms of the origin of the weapons and the government sponsorship of arms supplies.

[The Magistrate]

14. Indeed, Sir

The most likely source for this weaponry is purchase with Saudi funds on the open market.

[FogerRox]

17. I dont have the cite but

Russia sold 31 billion while the USA sold 30 billion in 2005. Russia has been busy upgrading systems for export.

Both Iran and Syria have recently been equipped with the very latest version of this missiles, the S-300PMU-2, which is larger, faster and even more efficient at hunting down its prey. The range of this upgraded missile is in excess of 125 miles, with the ability to acquire and kill targets flying as low as 30 feet. The Russians routinely shoot down random target drones travelling at 5,800 feet per second, and further claim the weapon is easily capable of destroying targets approaching at up to 15,500 feet per second, or Mach 14. Trust me, the S-300PMU-2 will swiftly take care of anything.

from

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/21/19480/1402

[TahitiNut]

19. $31 billion would be approximately the total arms sales for ALL nations.

The total aggregate international arms exports in 2002 was about $25 billion - not counting the 'black' market. In that year, nations in the Middle East bought $10 billion. Coincidentally enough, that's also about the same level of U.S. arms exports that same year.

http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID=900003&contentID=252541


The Congressional Research Service ranks the U.S. as the #1 Supplier of arms during the period 1998-2005, with 36% of the dollar volume, or over $97.1 billion. Russia is in second place with only 16% of the dollar value of arms sold.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/BigBusiness.asp#Armssalesfigures

[FogerRox]

21. I cant find anything to back up the 31 billion

But

http://www.fas.org/asmp/fast_facts.htm

Says we sold 48 billion in 2001, thru either the Dept of state or direct commercial sales.

Now I am even more confused.

[catnhatnh]

15. The answer is most likely the introduction of the Strella...

Google Iraq+Strella for 690 hits and for information on suppliers google strella 7b. Current manufacturers (besides whomever is still in production from the old USSR) include China,Egypt, and possibly Pakistan...

[FogerRox]

18. Could be the SA-7

According to John Pike, of GlobalSecurity.com, a military information Web site, U.S. forces should be concerned of the latest crashes because of “newer more modern and effective anti-aircraft missiles.” Helicopter countermeasures are probably effective against the 1960s era SA-7, but “their effectiveness against the 1980s era SA-18 is less certain,” he cautions.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=43302


Sunni insurgents already are known to have SA-7 anti-aircraft weapons in their arsenal

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/nation/16578493.htm

[Rex]

20. Tanks can be destroyed with recoilless rifles and mines.

Flying tanks can be destroyed with SAM missiles and AA fire. Not really that hard to do if you can find someone with the guts to take on a tank or a flying tank. I doubt very few people fit that description.