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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:39 PM
Original message
If she sas 'NO' and you pull out, is it still a rape?
From TIME


Thursday, Feb. 01, 2007
A Time Limit on Rape
By Jeninne Lee-St. John

If a woman consents to having sex with a man but then during intercourse says no, and the man continues, is it rape? The answer depends on where you live. The highest courts of seven states, including Connecticut and Kansas, have ruled that a woman may withdraw her consent at any time, and if the man doesn't stop, he is committing rape. Illinois has become the first state to pass legislation giving a woman that right to change her mind. But in Maryland--as well as in North Carolina--when a woman says yes, she can't take it back once sex has begun--or, at least, she can't call the act rape.

That was the recent ruling by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals in a case that may soon make its way to the state's highest court and that has captured the attention of feminists and legal experts across the country. Advocates for victims' rights insist it's not just a matter of allowing a woman to have a change of heart. If the law doesn't recognize a woman's right to say no during sex, they say, there is no recourse for a woman who begins to feel pain or who learns her partner isn't wearing a condom or has HIV. Those who are wary of these measures say they're not arguing against having a man stop immediately when a woman no longer wants to have sex, but with how to define immediately.

When the California Supreme Court handed down a ruling in 2003 that codified the withdrawal of consent during sex, Justice Janice Rogers Brown, the lone dissenter, raised that very question. "The majority relies heavily on failure to desist immediately," she wrote in her minority opinion. "But it does not tell us how soon would have been soon enough. Ten seconds? Thirty? A minute?" Mel Feit, executive director of the National Center for Men, a male-advocacy group based in Old Bethpage, N.Y., says biology is a factor. "At a certain point during arousal, we don't have complete control over our ability to stop," he says. "To equate that with brutal, violent rape weakens the whole concept of rape." His group has created a "consensual sex contract" to be signed before intercourse.

(snip)

The murkiness surrounding what's reasonable has deepened further with the Maryland case, which was tried in 2004. The accuser and the defendant agree that after he began to penetrate her and she wanted him to stop, he did so within a matter of seconds and did not climax. Even so, during deliberations, the jury sent a note to the judge asking if it was rape if a female changed her mind during the sex to which she consented and the man continued until climax. The judge said it was for them to decide. They convicted the defendant of first-degree rape, among other sex offenses.

But the appellate court, citing a 1980 rape ruling based on the English common-law idea of "the initial de-flowering of the woman as the real harm," unanimously ordered a new trial, essentially stating that how fast was not the issue, nor was whether the accuser had said no during intercourse. In Maryland, rape is determined at the beginning of the sex act, and therefore consent is officially given at that point. The court wrote, "It was the act of penetration that was the essence of the crime of rape; after this initial infringement upon the responsible male's interest in a woman's sexual and reproductive functions, any further injury was considered to be less consequential. The damage was done."

(snip)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1584786,00.html
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. hmm. well
the appellate court is all banged up, no question. but the initial verdict seems whacky as well, from what we know here. She said stop, and he stopped (it doesn't mention if he climaxed or not, but it seems likely from this story)

And yes, in the throes of intercourse, it can be tough to stop immediately, and even tougher to read more subtle signals. what a mess.

interestingly, this can go both ways, as a male, if we are engaged in the female-superior position say, and I say 'stop' how long does she have to get off me? I would say the same amount of time, right? which is none, apparently.

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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. article says accuser and accused agree he did not continue to climax
Nonetheless, the jury questioned the judge about "continuing to climax." I think that jury should've been instructed to stick to the case at hand, and told that the issue of "continuing to climax" was moot in that case.

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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. agreed.
I don't think the question of whether he came or not makes the violation in question any more or less severe. IIRC I read somewhere that most rapists don't climax...
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Consensual Sex Contract
Talk about ruining the moment!

"I took my Viagra."

"Good, I've got the candles lit and the wine ready to go."

"I'll make sure the door is locked and turn off the lights."

"Ready? Yep, let's go."

"Oh, wait...we need to sign the Consensual Sex Contract."

"Where is it?"

"I have no idea, I thought you had it."

"You go find that, I'll look for a pen."

"Did you find it yet...honey...did you find it?"

(Sounds of snoring coming from the bedroom. Yep, she fell asleep again!)

:rofl:
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. The contract wouldn't matter if she changed her mind during
sex, which is what the law in some states says.

I should think that a woman who consents and then halfway through, withdraws consent and then calls the cops needs to think more carefully about how much her conduct has contributed to someone going to jail for 20 years and whether her discomfort at changing her mind in the middle of sex is worth sending someone to jail.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Unless that was her plan all along
To get some kind of revenge or get rid of somone she doesn't like.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. it's always funny (in a sick way)
to see the inevitable argument that women are out to get men. But somehow the idea that the rapists are out to get women doesn't get taken nearly as seriously.
:eyes:
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. THANK YOU
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Well I'm just a guy
so that's an aspect of this that concerns me. That's all. Anything's possible and trusting people to do the right thing, especially when you haven't known them long, is usually a bad idea.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
40. I'm a guy too, and I don't see that as a valid excuse.
All the guys who only concern themselves with the possibility that some woman might entrap them are giving rapists a free pass. This assumption that women must be entrapping men in huge numbers (because so many men seem so concerned about it) becomes more important than the (less well heard) truth that men are raping women and getting away with it.

Even if your personal concern is that you might get entrapped, try to look beyond your own personal perspective and see the larger situation. Some empathy for the bigger problem and all the women it affects might be helpfull here. If guys refuse to accept that men are raping women, then men continue to get away with it.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. I don't reject that men are raping women
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:45 PM by rockymountaindem
nor, obviously, do I want to minimize it in any way. I just think that an open-ended ruling like this doesn't help anybody. It doesn't help women because it's too ambiguous to help women define what they can expect (legally) in this situation, and it is bad for men for the same reason. Furthermore, without any kind of recording, I don't know how the jury is supposed to determine at what point the woman said "stop" and at what point the man actually pulled out. Then it's just a he-said she-said, and the danger of wrongful conviction shouldn't be discounted.

As for the fear of being entrapped by a woman, I see no reason not to think about it. A lot of people say bad things never happen to them, but I take the view that if it can happen to anybody else it may happen to me. Add to that the fact that the American justice system can be pretty schitzophrenic and inconsistent at times, and this ruling just isn't a good idea.

On edit: you can have the last word, as the responses in this thread indicate that I'm obviously a misogynistic paranoid who should be excluded from a properly functioning society. I think I'll just "pull out" of this argument and join a monestary.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #40
103. ThomCat, you're on a roll today!
:thumbsup:
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #103
157. I'll go much farther than that
He's my new hero.

Is there another thread where he stood up for women? Link(s) please -- inquiring minds want to know -- and CELEBRATE. This is such a rarity at DU that I want to definitely want to see it and mark the occasion.

Thanks, ThomCat! :hi:
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #157
172. ThomCat ALWAYS does, from everything I've seen.
A true progressive and a really smart guy. :hi:
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #157
219. he's earned my respect
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
134. withdrawn
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 06:24 PM by Perky
and yeah it is rape.
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Thank you. n/t
:hug:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
45. We love luring men into situations that will get them arrested, don't we?
:eyes:
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. Of course! To hear some men talk about it,
that's the entire purpose of sex!

It makes you wonder what their relationship are like.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
108. My guess is "very unsatisfying"
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
70. I think in this case though, there is a point
Because, if a couple are having consentual sex, by definition they both agreed to it. If the woman retracts her agreement, fine. But I can't think of a way in which this could be a case where a man is trying to get revenge on a woman, yet it immediately comes to mind that this could be used by a woman to get revenge on a man.

I guess, maybe it's obvious enough that rapists are out to get women that it doesn't need to come up in this case.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #70
96. Read post #61 below for more on this case.
This was not Jane and John on a hot date... things start progressing, gets hot n heavy and she suddenly says no. She was intimidated the WHOLE time.

<<shudder>>
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #96
140. I did, and I can't argue with you one bit
From what was posted, she was intimidated the whole time, just like you said.
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #70
182. Exactly.
Being concerned about an area of law that IS ripe for abuse by women, does not in any way take away from concern about the problem of rape.

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wickedcity Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
195. And yet...
...no one is arguing that rape should be legalized.
There is no conspiracy to oppress women.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Oh here we go...
and so it begins, allegations of these strictly hypothetical hysterical harpies just foaming at the mouth for any opportunity to fuck men over and send them to jail. I predicted this upthread.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. I think that something like that happens in a very narrow
set of circumstances.

If the young woman lives at home under a very strict family rules, if she strays, accusing the man of rape may actually save her life. Maybe.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. if this hypothetical woman is in fear for her life...
why would she have to lie to get out of the relationship? If she had the courage to leave her partner she wouldn't have to concoct bogus scenarions. Never mind, don't answer that. I'm not interested in wild hypotheticals, I'm interested in the consequences of the law as it is written now and how to best amend them to protect women AND men.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
74. Was just an observation
and obviously does not apply to this case or to most cases.

But there are still societies and families where a woman has to stay virgin until her father, or another male member of the family "allows" her to move to the hands of another man - her husband.

Yet, as we know, strong emotions do not always obey the rules. This is why most of us realize the futility of telling teenagers to abstain.

And when a woman in a strict society does find herself in love and following her emotions and then realizes what has happened, crying rape may save her life, or so she thinks.
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. Only a third of rape cases are ever even reported
The idea that there are massive numbers of women out there reporting flase rape to extract revenge on men is simply ludicrous. Given the stigma attached to it, why would they?
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
153. The incidence of false rape reports is no different than for other
crimes -- about 2%. And yet, as was already posted, the vast majority of rapes aren't even reported, and for the vast majority of those reported no one is arrested, and the vast majority of those arrested aren't convicted.

But men still get absolutely hysterical about the nearly non-existent prospect of being entrapped by evil, predatory women.

Does it happen? Yes, but so rarely (esp. as compared to incidences of REAL rape, the majority of which rapists are never brought to justice) that it's of negligible importance. Yet, every -- and I mean EVERY -- thread which touches on the subject of rape gets hijacked by hysterical men who are apparently so incapable of forming decent relationships with decent women, that to them the prospect of false charges is nearly all-encompassing.

Pathetic.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #153
203. So even thinking about such a possiblity makes one a paranoid delusional
Is that what I'm to understand?
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #203
233. Wellllll.....
I wouldn't have put it that way myself... but


:think: hmmmm, let me think.....

......perhaps you know something I don't. I'll certainly accept your self-evaluation on the matter.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
150. I see you've discovered
our secret evil plan.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. and maybe the fuckin jackass who can't pull his dick out
when consent is withdrawn should think twice about the possibility of emotionally scarring someone FOR LIFE. seriously, :wtf:?? There's potential for abuse of ALL LAWS. That doesn't mean that they should be repealed.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. Ok, help me out here
A woman consents and then 20 seconds before orgasm, she says to pull out. Now, a jury gets to decide whether the guy goes to jail for 20 years? Who's emotionally damaged, again?

I mean really
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Thank you
For a moment there I thought I might be crazy.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. band together boys!
I'm sure you are feeling as if the estrogen brigade is encroaching upon the God-given, Constitutionally-protected right to coming in a woman, right? :sarcasm:
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. There's always a group of guys who give that impression
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:37 PM by ThomCat
on every rape thread. :(
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. I'm not generalizing all or even most DU men but you're right...
they come out of the woodwork :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #50
81. I wonder if those guys are related to the guys who said
"C'mon, c'mon, honey. Nothin's gonna happen, and anyway, if it did, you know I'd marry you . . . . . " Oh, yeah, and some of 'em are already married to someone else. . . . .

Talk about entrapment. . . . . .but, oh, right, THAT never happens. . . . .

:sarcasm: (maybe, maybe not)

Tansy Gold, overdosing on . . . . . today
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. Yes, I'm sure it's some of the very same guys.
When guys are convinced that there is nothing more important than "getting some" it's no surprise that they'll go to great lengths to justify or rationalize it.
:(
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. but you see, as long as they give her cabfare, they're gentlemen
C'mon Thom, chivalry is NOT dead! :rofl:
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #91
99. Oh yes.
A gentleman can rape a woman so long as he makes sure she gets home afterwards.

I'd laugh if that didn't seem like such an accepted truth. :(
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #99
175. At this point, as an observer reading this thread...
It is clear that you and the others have forced people who probably only started out with a mild disagreement that could have been resolved through a calm discussion and which have led to deeper wisdom and understanding, have now been pushed into a corner where they are forced to defend themselves against charges of being misogynistic wannabe rapers.

If you want to deepen understanding, you guys and gals are doing a piss poor job.

This is like every smoking thread on DU too. No room for grey areas and a person makes one mistep and they are painted with the vilest of brushes and forced into a defensive posture.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #175
180. Did you catch the deleted post below?
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 09:15 PM by HoneyBee
Just asking.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #180
184. No, missed that. What's up?
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. It set a pretty nasty tone.
It was bad.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #185
186. Okay, well I'm gonna stay clear. Thanks for the heads-up.
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #175
208. I'm not sure you're allowed to say that.....
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 11:37 PM by Porcupine
this I mean:

"If you want to deepen understanding, you guys and gals are doing a piss poor job."

These discussions are not about understanding or prevention. They appear to be largely about anger and fear. There is really no hope of reasoned debate of issues.

I think these issues turn into echo chambers of hate and fear to no purpose. Agree w/majority or bail.(on edit)
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #208
216. yawnnnnnnnnnnnnn
listen, it's not my or anyone else's job to educate the ignorant. we TRY and TRY but sometimes bullshit needs to be called. Sometimes ignoramuses just need to witness the outrage of others; this is NOT "echo chamber" syndrome. In fact, from my life experiences DU is one of the few people where there is a modicum of support for women and others who have the gall to call sexist, disturbing shit out. I teach cultural anthropology, if you or anyone else wants a dispassionate, monitored lecture come sign up.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #216
236. Yes, it is
Granted, I have not followed many threads about this subject... reading everything on DU can be a full time job, and then some.

I was grateful to the person, below, in post #61, who elaborated on that specific case.

I read it in, yes, an MSM outlet and was puzzled and posted it. And, it appeared, that many were puzzled by the facts - that she said no, he stopped, and yet was found guilty.

I, and others, did not realize what a hidden agenda, and anger, and history this story would have unleashed.

So, yes, I think that it is your job to educate and to clarify from where you are coming from, if you want to engage in a civilized debate. Some here, obviously, have "met" before on similar topics and already know from where they each arrive.

I, and others, have no idea about your shared history. Thus, if you need to repeat your stand 100 times, yes, do this. This is what DU is all about - for most of us, anyway: to learn the facts, to be educated, to ask and to be part of a civilized debate.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #175
217. oh please.
most of the people who started out this thread by posting opinions that were blatantly offensive apologized when they recognized the true brevity of the story. In fact, we were just responding to teh paranoid rantings of those who were making outrageous speculations and infinitely unlikely scenarios based on info they DIDNT HAVE. And others made blatantly sexist, violent comments; I'm sorry sometimes bullshit MUST be called. It's not our responsibility to constantly treat people like children and constantly have to gently educate them. As I told another poster, I teach cultural anthropology and if you or anyone else would like a calm, dispassionate lecture on gender dynamics and sexual politics in contemporary American social spheres come sign up.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #175
226. ..
:applause: :woohoo: :applause:
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #99
207. Dinner beforehand, cabfare afterward
This is no joke, and I'm sure I've told this story before on DU, but it bears repeating.

In 1999, in a "Women and Law" class at Arizona State University's West Campus, a 30-something guy who was either a probation officer or police officer actually said, out loud, with a straight face, in a discussion about what is and what isn't rape: "Yeah, but if I take her out to dinner and a show and spend, you know, like a hundred bucks on her in the course of the evening, don't I have a right to expect something in return?"

Half the other guys in the class -- and most of them were police and probation officers -- agreed and defended him.




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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. I see, so your hypothetical man is soooooo attuned to his body
that he can quantify the span of time before his orgasm, but he doesn't have the self-control to pull the fuck out??!! For that 20 seconds that woman ceases to be a partner in the act, she becomes a cum receptacle, an OBJECT for him to USE. I can't believe some of the shit that gets posted here sometimes.

"I mean really"...please tell me you don't actually subject women to this philosophy. :grr:
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #41
56. oh my
I'm sorry for whatever has happened that makes you hate so much.

I bid you farewell.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. LOL hate??!!
that's rich. I guess I'm a damaged angry bundle of hormones who looks for every opportunity to spew my venom at men, right? I PITY those who don't possess the intellectual capacity to see what's wrong in the argument that sometimes men can't pull out. Actually, I pity the people who have to fuck them. Why do you have to assume I'm victimized, when all I am is rightfully angry at the sexism and sense of sexual entitlement put forth in this thread? I love sex, I love getting laid, but I always make sure it's with someone who has the emotional and physical ability to respect my wishes. I've never been violently raped, but once I had to push a man off of me who wouldn't stop when I said "stop". However, I have martial arts defense training and was physically strong enough to not feel intimidated by him, and he was apologetic, but had this happened to a physically weaker woman I could totally understand why she might feel intimidated and violated.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Okay, what was that guy doing
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:45 PM by ThomCat
that made that woman want to change her mind 20 seconds before orgasm? If his behavior was so violent or intimidating that she felt she had to change her mind and try to stop what was happening, then yes it should go to a jury.

It's nice how you entirely discount the woman's possible perspective. She's just out to get him. That's all.
:eyes:
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Who said anything about violence or intimidation?
I've had experiences, when younger of women changing their mind. Maybe they thought it was a good idea in the beginning, but then decided it wasn't for any number of reasons, none of which have anything to do with violence or intimidation. For instance, maybe thinking of a lover they'd recently broken up with and coming to the conclusion that it was too soon for sex with someone else for now. I respect that and I complied. What if she decided to say I wasn't complying quickly enough?

Bottom line: Allowing people to have other people put in jail on tenuous grounds where it is a total he said she said is very risky....but ONLY for the man.

No one has mentioned violence or intimidation in this thread.

Why is this coming up now?
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #54
65. I brought up violence and intimidation because
the idea that someone is going to change her mind, during the height of sex, purely on a malicious whim is far-fetched.

It is far more likely that she will tell a guy to stop because he's hurting her, or because he's being intimidating or violent. In fact, men treating women violently seems to be common. And if that's why she told him to stop, and he refused to listen, then I think he should get dragged in front of a jury.

That would be a case of a man conning a woman into having sex, getting her to have sex under the false pretenses that he cares about her. If she figured out that he's using her for sex, she has a perfect right to say no at any time. Period. And if he's being violent or intimidating about it, then she has a NEED to say no.
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #54
229. good points
plus...what is the allowable time for withdrawal? Geez, I mean there are people who lose the ability to hear much of anything while in the throes...Sorry, but it has to be a bit more clear cut....like don't start having sex. I'd even be inclined to allow that if the person is still going, after they've been asked to withdraw..it could be seen as simple assault...ie. if it was hurting her. But not rape.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #34
102. Read post #61 for more. This was not a case of "consent" that was repealed.
It was never consent and the article implying that it was is horrifying.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. If and when a woman says "No"
it is rape if sexual contact/intercourse continues after that point. Doesn't seem to difficult to me.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Agree, but this is confusing
from the story, above:

"she wanted him to stop, he did so within a matter of seconds and did not climax" and yet was still convicted.

How could he have been found not guilty?
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
46. I don't think that's fair. nt
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
155. "she wanted him to stop; he did so within a matter of seconds"
A lot can happen in a matter of seconds - which could be 59 seconds or less to not be called "stopping within a matter of minutes" -- yet for those first few seconds, first 20 seconds, first 30 seconds before he stopped, he could very well have kept pushing inward - instead of pulling out -- then he still could truthfully say, "I stopped in a matter of seconds". If he did that before he regained control of himself and pulled out, then he was penetrating her intentionally AFTER she said stop which is, by definition, rape. I'm not sure how many seconds someone is allowed to do that after she said stop. I have a 17 year old daughter and if she says "no" then, to my way of thinking, the guy has about 1 nano-second to stop.

On the other hand: I do not know the answer and I couldn't imagine being on a jury in a case like this. This is a rough call all around since victim and accused agreed he stopped within seconds. I'm not sure how much sooner he could have been expected to stop. And I feel for the guy here too, because I also have a 22 year old son, and couldn't imagine this happening to him - being told yes, then going for it, then being told no, then having 1 second to pull out, then facing the jury and life in prison.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #155
163. Please read the whole thread including the details of this case.
I am sure you would not want your son to do what the 2 boys in this case did to this girl.

It was NOT just about the "putting it in her" and "pulling it out". Time misrepresented it as that. Those boys raped her.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
194. If that's what really happened, then the ruling was fucked.
The man did as requested.

Period.

The fact that he was found guilty is a travesty of justice...

But what I want to know is what was REALLY going on before and during?

If it gets to the point of this, other than if the parents or kids suddenly barge into the room, then something is very fishy, and I don't mean the smell...
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I don't know--
It's not always as simple as that, as this case suggests. She said yes, he started, she said stop, he stopped, he still went to jail. Now, if he stopped three hours later after she pleaded with him repeatedly, that seems like the correct verdict. According to the story, though, "the accuser and the defendant agree that after he began to penetrate her and she wanted him to stop, he did so within a matter of seconds and did not climax." So, how many seconds does it take to get convicted of first degree rape and "other sex offenses"? Two? Twenty?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. I really want to know what these "other sex offenses" were...
I find it EXTREMELY relevant; if a jury was convinced to convict him of other sex crimes then it would give credence to the possibility that this was more than just a case of a woman withdrawing consent and the man not reacting quickly enough for her.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Possibly.
It's also possible they're just narrow iterations of the same charge, brought by an overzealous prosecutor. If the story's accurate, it doesn't sound to me as though charges should ever have been brought in this case, much less taken to trial.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. There are too many pieces missing to assume
the charge was invalid. Only 1-2% of reported rapes are false. It's impossible to know exactly what the jury was told, but it must have been more convincing than "I told him to stop, he did, but it was 3 seconds later"
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. It sounds as though the article implies that the jury may have misunderstood
the circumstances of the case--or may have gone for a one-size-fits-all verdict. But I only know what's in the story. Taken at face value, though, what do you think--was it a crime or not?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
51. I would need to know what was said to the jury.
My stand is that anyone (male OR female) who withdraws consent and is not IMMEDIATELY acknowledged (I didn't say INSTANTLY..that's impossible)is entitled to feeling violated and should be able to press charges.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. Okay--
What's the difference between immediately and instantly? Same thing, to this English major.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. *sigh*
This anthropologist with cognitive linguistic training is not going to get painted into a corner by furnishing a static span of time. To me, that time span should be up to the one withdrawing consent. As I said before in this thread, anyone hearing "No", "Stop", "Get the fuck off of me", or even "I'm not into this anymore" should be able to stop penetration or other sexual acts on a dime. If not, I would seriously consider celibacy until said person learns to exercise restraint. I can't believe how much bad sex happens; to me, the only good sex is where both people are really connected and attuned to the act. You don't have to be in love, it could be casual but I don't get why people treat each other like objects for their own satisfaction. The pleasure your partner is just as important as yours; at least that's how I feel.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #71
84. See below.
Your instincts about this story are correct. Good call.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. thank you for that.
:hug:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. The article suggests that weakens and cheapens the concept
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:13 PM by depakid
of rape.

I see a lot of potential for abuse (on both sides of the issue) with such a definition.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. seems pretty difficult to me. at SOME point a woman needs to have
some responsibility in this whole mess instead of always being assumed to be powerless and a victim.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
85. this is NOT a man/woman issue to me.
it's a question of a person being physically or verbally intimidated. Nice canard about depicting women as powerless and victimized though :eyes:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #85
116. i read post #61. totally different story than op n/t
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is why everyone should videotape all of their sexual encounters.
Just in case something like this comes up.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:33 PM
Original message
Yup. Or bring witnesses.
:evilgrin: Such a prospect would absolutely assure my continued celibacy.

It's inconceivable to me that I could even "make love" to someone not just willing, but as eager as I was. For me, the "turn on" is the mutuality ... the coequal zeal. When that (not just willing, but eager) interest isn't there, then Nature prevents me from continuing. While I have no doubt that some/many are "wired" differently, I find it very difficult to imagine myself even being ABLE to copulate in the face of a refusal, no matter when. At the same time, it scares me to think that even though this is a FACT of my sex life, it wouldn't be accepted as a defense. I've lived long enough to know that there're lots of people who just wouldn't believe I'm wired that way. But I can't really think it's that unusual. There've got to be many other guys in my "boat." Bizarre.

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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. "At a certain point during arousal, we don't have complete control over our ability to stop,"
"At a certain point during arousal, we don't have complete control over our ability to stop,"

Bullshit.

I do not go insane during sex. I have control over what happens and what I am doing, with the exception of ejaculation, and even there I have some control (a good man must).

If you have ever spent time with a woman who suffers from conditions like endometriosis, then you know how things can go from fantastik to ouch with just a slight shift of the body. If you give a damn, you are prepared to recognize this and adjust, no matter what. I am not a goddamn dog that keeps humping even when the object of my desire moves away.

No means no. Simple as that.


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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. You're right. It's total bullshit.
I've never, ever been out of control during sex, and I've had some good sex. Even during the peak of orgasm a guy could get up move away if he had to. It would be awkward, and he'd look like a goof doing it, but it could be done.

(Standard disclaimers about people with mobility impairments may apply. I have a permanent mobility impairment so I understand.)
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. Yeah, the "guys are really just walking hard-ons" excuse doesn't wash.
And, you know, blue balls can be dangerous! Hooey. If you can start, you can damn well stop. Not listening makes for a crappy encounter all the way around.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
35. however- that ability can vary from man to man as well...
the first time i was with a virgin, her expression of the pain that she was feeling was enough to give me a "soft-on", and nothing was completely consumated that evening. let alone having the mental(in)capacity to be able to even contemplate the act in the first place, personally, i've never understood how someone could even physically complete the act of rape. unlubricated, dry sex isn't even comfortable from the male perspective...

but the point i'm trying to make is that obviously the sexual response/workings can vary greatly from guy to guy- i could even see situations where a male might even be able to claim "temporary insanity"(or something to that effect) if consent is withdrawn during the act, and he continues to climax...

or-
what if consent is withdrawn once the guy has started to climax? should he reasonably be expected to stop his body's physiological responses?

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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. Um, even in the throes or orgasm one can pull out.
Sorry, not a valid argument. Although at that point, I can't see many cases like this arising.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
104. blanket statements are almost never true.
sure, you can,i can, most guys can- but it wouldn't surprise me if there are people who get more...animalistic...who can't.

but then, as some feminists like to point out women NEVER lie about rape- so why don't we just take their word as law and be done with it...?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. perhaps more "animalistic" people who can't pull out should be
fucking sheep, not other human beings.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. This case was decided by a jury... who heard details not printed in Time
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 04:39 PM by HoneyBee
Read below. There are men in this thread who took Time's printed details and made the assumption that there was "consent" in the typical sense given in this case and very quickly took the position that this woman or that jury were wrong. Read below. You're wrong. And, it's pretty disheartening that the benefit of the doubt is not with the victim in cases like this.

As a femenist... I prefer to defer to the details of the case and the judgement of the jury before making assumptions that the victim was a lying vindictive bitch.

Gross.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #104
109. lol, um I'm not a man for one... and I have never met a feminist that has said
"No woman has ever lied about rape."

However, the commonly used argument that women lie about rape on a consistent basis is both without merit and ridiculous. It's not something we lie in bed at night fantasizing about doing, believe it or not. The benefits are pretty much nonexistent.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #104
124. "...people who get more...animalistic..."
"...people who get more...animalistic..."

Yeah. Society refers to those people as "rapists".



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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
129. do you have a penis ? nt
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #129
143. Is that a relevant question?
Plenty of others who DO have said the same thing I said.
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #143
169. Maybe he's taking a pole.



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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
53. Coitus interruptus is something us older guys are probably more familiar with than younger ones.
I totally understand the "soft-on" ... it's the way I'm 'wired' as well. :thumbsup:
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
63. More bullshit.
"what if consent is withdrawn once the guy has started to climax? should he reasonably be expected to stop his body's physiological responses?"

You immediately pull out and make a mess. Simple. Pulling out is like the oldest form of birth control known to mankind. No excuse.

Temporary insanity? Bullshit. Never has that happened to me, but I am sure some asshole will try it. Probably has.



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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
101. and of course since it never happens to YOU, it never happens...
got it- thanks! :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #101
123. Please be specific.
Are you suggesting that since I never lost my mind during sex and went on a mindless, autonomic humping spree I can not suggest that human autonomic humping sprees are not possible? I would say to you that I am justified in my opinion that human autonomic humping sprees or whatever sort of bullshit frat-boy childish name you want to apply to the refusal to take responsibility for your own actions is not something that just "happens" to men during sexual intercourse.

If some man is giving the high hard one to some woman and her husband comes home, are you gonna tell me he would be in such a state as to be unable to grab trou and haul ass? Preposterous. I am sick of this "I could not help myself" lie from men.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
49. Amen. nt
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:03 PM
Original message
I think it's an appropriate legal protection
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:04 PM by Strawman
Big surprise there are problems interpreting the meaning reasonableness. Sucks to be that one guy in Maryland who gets let down by the legal system and a "murky" definition of what is reasonable. At least he has the potential remedy of an appeal. Sucks even more for all those women who change their mind after giving "consent" (possibly under pressure) and have no legal protections in the absence of these laws. What's their remedy in the absence of these laws?

I would suspect that the "reasonability standard" here will be defined more strictly against black men by judges and juries. But that's hardly a unique strike against this particular piece of criminal law either.

But if the legal system shits on a white guy unfairly once, oh no, better call John Stossel. :sarcasm:
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'm pretty sure the Maryland high court will overturn this one. n/t
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. As soon as one of the two says no, it should end
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:05 PM by IAmJacksSmirkingReve
Any continuance beyond the point is rape as far as I'm concerned.

The fact that this ruling is based on some common-law ruling about "de-flowering" a woman tells me it will get overturned. If he stopped when she said to, that's what we're "supposed" to do, right?
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. "At a certain point during arousal, we don't have complete control over our ability to stop,"
:wtf: As the article says, this is insulting to men. Most men (and probably women as well) have had encounters where their partner has wanted to stop for any given reason (I forgot to take my pill, this hurts right now, I'm not wet enough, even I'm just not into it right now). Anyone unable to do this immediately and without complaint has no business having sex and should fucking get their brains conditioned to the word "NO". It should be Pavlovian. If you really don't think you have the self-control to stop sex at ANY POINT then for fuck's sake get some porn and restrict your sexual contact to Rosy Palmer. As far as time limits to stopping sex, this reeks of a disengenuous foil to the larger issues of how archaic and sexist these laws are. "Deflowering" of a woman??!! Also it doesn't even address situations of men raping other men or women raping men. I think that if that jury was convinced that he was guilty of rape and "other sex crimes" then obviously the victim conveyed her feelings of violation. What were the "other sex crimes" anyway? I think it would be extremely illuminating to find out what else he was guilty of; this would strengthen the rape conviction. Was she also tied up, for example? I know that a bunch of people will jump on this thread saying how amending these laws would result in their abuse by vindictive jilted lovers, but if this saves even ONE person from getting raped, I'm all for it. I think the wording should be "immediately cease physical contact after consent is withdrawn" and let the judges and juries decide how many seconds is "too much" in any hypothetical cases where this would be an issue. However as the laws stand, that a woman (should be PERSON) can't withdraw consent after penetration is REPUGNANT.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
57. What she said...
:applause:
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. hey you
:hug:
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #58
69. Hey...
Hope all is well :hug:

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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think the subject line could apply to Iraq.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
24. Yes it is in IMHO. Suppose she becomes afraid that since there is no protection she could get
pregnant so she tells the guy to pull out. I think he is obligated to do so. He can still have an orgasm.
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Hobarticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. That jury's freaking moronic...
"Is it rape if he penetrated without climax, against her wishes?"

Jeezus, do you even need to ASK???
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
29. this will never fly in court
Regardless of whether or not this is rape or not (and this is exceedingly complex issue), no jury will ever convict any man of rape in a case like this. Considering how hard a normal rape case can be (ie many people still think a prostitute can't be rapedand that a spouse can't be raped either) to convict, the argument is most likely moot. That's how most defendents in date rape get acquited because the woman cannot prove it was not consensual. In he said she said (which this would be) he said always wins, that's the nature of our innocent until proven guilty court of law. In other words you could never remove reasonable doubt from the case.
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KenHodson Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
32. Well that's it. Time to stop breeding and give the cockroaches a chance.
Or salmon. If salmon ruled this planet it would be better off.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #32
62. Wait--they don't?
Crap. There goes another great creation myth...
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
42. If a woman tells you to stop, you stop, period, immediately, end of story.
IMO, that is rape. As for the "we get to a point where it is impossible to stop" argument - that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

If a woman gets to the point during sex where she feels the need for it to end, clearly something is not right. Ignoring that request is abusive and a violation.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
68. If at any point consent is withdrawn by either party, all activity should stop immediately
Otherwise it is clearly rape. Anyone who says they "cannot stop" is lying. Period.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #68
112. Amen.
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whopis01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
223. Exactly correct
Clearly if a woman has gotten to the point where she feels the need for it to end, it has already passed the point of being consensual. Frankly, at that point it has already become a form of rape. Once it has reached that point, the woman almost certainly feels violated and the potential for emotional damage has already occurred. This guy got nothing more than he deserved.
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
47. There's plenty of internet porn available, guys
There's plenty of internet porn available, guys.

I suggest that unless we are in a loving long term relationship that we simply stick to Old Mother Thumb and Her Four Daughters and some good old porn.

The risks otherwise are simply unacceptable.

You want to risk going to prisn for a looong time for a bit of unappreciative nookie, be my guest.

A guy pulls out "within seconds" and then gets sent to prison anyhow?

How is that just?
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
166. Did YOU read post #61?
It's perfectly just under the actual circumstances.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
61. Fuck the media and everyone who buys into their sexist bullshit
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 03:45 PM by lwfern
The Maryland case is portrayed here - as it has been in every media piece I've ever read about it - as if the incompetent manipulative woman just can't make up her mind. Does she want sex? Does she not? How's a poor fella to know? Clearly MEN are the victims here, cause lord knows they always are, whenever a rape case comes up.

Here are the details of that case which the media doesn't think are relevant enough to report:

She is a teenager, in a car with two boys. One asks her to show them her breasts, she says no. He grabs her breast. One of the boys sits on her chest and tries to put his penis in her mouth, the other is removing her jeans. She tells them to stop. They reposition her, then one of them is holding her arms down while the other penetrates her.

Jumping ahead, then the other boy says it’s his turn.

Q. : And what else did he say?
A. He, after that we sat there for a couple seconds and he was like so are you going to let me hit it and I didn’t really say anything and he was like I don’t want to rape you.
Q. So when Maouloud said I don’t want to rape you, did you respond?
A. Yes. I said that as long as he stops when I tell him to, then -
Q. Now, that he could?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you feel like you had a choice?
A. Not really. I don’t know. Something just clicked off and I just did whatever they said.
Q. Now when you told if I say stop, something like that, you have to stop. What did he do after you spoke those words?
A. Well he got on top of me and he tried to put it in and it hurt. So I said stop and that’s when he kept pushing it in and I was pushing his knees to get off me.

http://www.courts.state.md.us/opinions/cosa/2006/225s05.pdf

Seriously. Has anyone here, EVER, been in a situation where a woman said she wanted to have sex with you, then half way through the act accused you of raping her?
Has anyone here ever BEEN raped?

I'm guessing the answers are NO, and YES.

So why are we having YET ANOTHER discussion about how men are forever victimized in rape cases?
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Thanks for the new info.
This certainly puts the story in a different light. Send both of those kids to jail and throw away the key.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Shocking and disgusting. Thank you for posting that. You're 100% right...
YET ANOTHER discussion about how men are forever victimized in rape cases...

I just vomited in my mouth.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. When ever it's an issue of someone getting victimized
the people who might be in the position of the abuser always come up with hypothetical reasons why they would be justified and innocent. It's amazing how many people think the man is the victim when the woman gets raped.
x(

I'm a guy, and threads like this disgust me. It's such a simple issue. Don't have sex unless you know damned well that it's mutual. Ask first even if you're pretty sure it's consentual. Don't use pressure, coercion or force. And if she says no at any point, stop.

How difficult is that?
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. I'm With Ya, Thom
Here's a good idea. Don't have sex with people if you don't know for sure both of you are agreeing. If you're not sure, don't do it, or ask a specific question. Not that difficult at all.

You're on the money. When the answer is no, that's the end of it.
The Professor
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #72
90. the convicted rapist complied "within seconds"
so he did stop.

what is too long to comply? one additional thrust? perhaps, depends on which part of the preceding thrust the withdrawal of consent occurred.

seems to me that two additional thrusts is clearly over the line. i'm half serious.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. Keep Reading, Max
The issue is very different when you read the details that Time left out.
GAC
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
198. My husband STILL asks me and we're married and I'm pregnant.
It's not like he doesn't know me or can't read my signals - yet, he's still a complete gentleman and still asks - unless I've given consent otherwise (by telling him to move forward).

There are some good guys in the world: my husband and ThomCat to name two.

Thank you for standing up in this thread. :hug:
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. Well, That Changes The Story Quite A Bit Now Doesn't It?
Two on one, in an aggressive pursuit of sexual favors, in a car, where physical restraint is used.

Those sort of seem like relevant facts to me.
The Professor
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. Yes, though I'd use stronger language
She'd already said no, and they were using force - it was already a rape in progress.

It's a sign of how completely screwed up the justice system is that a jury would even be considering her "yes" to be legal consent at that point, where she'd already been raped by one of the guys, and the one holding her down during that was starting his turn.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
92. There Is No Consent Under Duress
That's a very simple legal concept and this whole thing would seem to be a cut & dried legal case. With these new facts, there doesn't seem any point to any new legislation, any appeals, any court decisions. These things have been a matter of jurisprudence for, oh, about 5 centuries.
The Professor
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. But Maryland and South Carolina don't allow someone to change his/her mind
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 04:21 PM by FarceOfNature
after initial consent. I think those laws DO need to be changed, since obviously a sexual encounter can begin consentually but for any zillion reasons a partner can feel "under duress". As those laws are written now, those people have no legal recourse.

updated for gender neutral language; I think legal protections should extend to EVERYONE.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
87. indeed
And I wouldn't have brought up what I did in this thread if I'd known that beforehand. If this is the real story here, this is not the time and place for me to bring up those particular ideas that I did. Mea culpa.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
75. THANK YOU for this missing info.
There is no doubt in my mind now that she was not only raped but violently assaulted and restrained against her will. I hope those little fuckers live the rest of their lives in chastity.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. The Whole Story In Time Is Now Just Ridiculous, No?
The whole point of the story is now lost if they failed to include this important set of facts.
The Professor
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. well at least we're not the ones eating crow on this thread...
but I'll happily serve it to those deserving. It is interesting to note the tangents some people are willing to explore in the absence of relevant facts. This is the most irresponsible piece of journalism I've seen in some time but I think it was illuminating just to see the responses here.

:wave:
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. Boy, Am I Glad I Read The Whole Thread Before Commenting
Otherwise i'd be looking for red wine with my crow. The original version had me thinking something completely different. Knowing all the facts sure helps.
GAC
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
78. OK, now the OP, and the Jury's question makes less sense...
Why the fuck would it matter what she said after she said "Stop" before any intercourse took place? Both boys raped her during their INITIAL penetration, not to mention the other sexual assaults that occurred before that took place. Whether they pulled out at her request is moot at that point. They intimidated her and forced her into a blowjob and other actions, she wasn't even ABLE to consent after that point.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. what makes even less sense
is why the ruling was overturned :wtf:
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #82
114. I think it was prosecutoral stupidity myself...
Depending on how they presented the case, I think they were making too much of a big deal on the fact that she said stop after penetration by the second boy, even though the initial "Yes" was said under duress.

I don't really see a difference between this and raping someone with a knife at their throat, I wouldn't say no to someone trying to rape me in that situation, and neither would you, I imagine, yet it is STILL rape.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. Absolutely right. Coerced consent is not consent.
It's coercion.

x(
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #119
122. Yeah, and here I am assuming this is settled law...
I mean, they held her down, for crying out loud!

The whole criteria for rape is the fact that consent either was never given or was rescinded, or the victim COULDN'T give it.

It doesn't matter how the consent was taken away, whether it was though direct force, like in this case, intimidation, as in using a weapon, or even blackmail, or whether it was removed through chemical means, like alcohol or date rape drugs.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #78
98. I agree. This was a rape before he "stuck it in her". Disgusting.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #98
121. But the court still considered
that a valid consent. Being held down by two men, raped once, and it was a valid consent? Oh my God.
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Unreal, isn't it?
:puke:
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
83. Great Find. That's An Entirely Different Story Than What The Media Is Reporting
That was rape pure and simple. It was coerced sex from the start. She was put into a hostile situation and forced into sexual acts. The real account is not even remotely close to how the media is presenting this story.

I don't even see the conflict here. She was forced into sex.

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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #83
100. The media trying to make this into a repealed consent issue is terrifying.
Disgusting.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #100
178. And check out who they're quoting
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 09:20 PM by Marie26
as some sort of expert in the area of repealed consent. - "At a certain point during arousal, we don't have complete control over our ability to stop," (Mel Feit) says.

Feit is not an attorney, not a biologist, but someone from a group called "The National Center for Men". This group's main issues are a "Roe v. Wade" for men, so a father can decline to support his child, and a "consensual sex contract", to keep those tricky women from crying rape all the time. :puke: The website also goes into creepy detail about how women use harrassment laws to "punish men for the expression of opinion", make false accusations of rape, place themselves on "high sexual pedestals" etc. etc. Total misogynistic rants. I think the group is actually just that one person & a PO Box. Yet he's quoted as an authority in Time Magazine? OMG.

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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #178
188. I just checked out his website
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #188
201. That's it
I didn't want to include the link, he might find some new members. And what is that logo anyway, a paddle, a caveman club? Too weird.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #178
189. Ugh, I missed that.
They really outdid themselves. :puke:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
113. Thank you.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
118. lwfern, thank you
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 05:00 PM by Marie26
SO MUCH for taking the time to actually look up this case. The Time article is absolutely disgusting. This case actually totally eroded rape victim's rights in MD, because the appellate court ruled that a victim cannot withdraw consent after penetration. The court's reasoning was basically that a woman's "value" has already been affected by the initial act, so her later withdraw of consent is meaningless. It is a deeply anti-woman decision, that values women as property instead of human beings.

Legal analysis of Mahmoud v. MD - http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20061115.html
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #118
179. I don't remember where I saw it
either here or some feminist blog somewhere - I won't take credit for tracking down the case itself.

What concerns me is that I've seen several media reports by now, and none of those have done anything but give the impression this was anything but consentual sex between two adults, and the woman just *poof* changed her mind halfway through on a whim. And then the people commenting seem to buy into that, even though it doesn't match their experience, or the experience of anyone else that they know.

I refuted the media spin on one other blog, but other than that and the first time I saw it, I haven't seen what was basically a gang-rape portrayed as anything other than the woman deliberately conspiring to set up an innocent man by falsely claiming rape.

My favorite post on the other blog, incidentally, was this: "Does this extend to dinner parties as well? If someone agrees to come to my house for dinner, which turns out to be fetid and served up with a bunch of vitrolic insults from me, do I have the right to lock them in the house until they fulfill their social contract and eat the mess? Woo hoo!! My greeen, fuzzy leftovers problem is solved."
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
120. I've never written a letter to Time before
but they deserve a ton of mail telling them they're a-holes for not telling the full story. The article paints a completely misleading picture.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #120
167. The article is awful
Incredibly, stunningly awful. They're getting a letter from me, too.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #61
160. Holy cow.
Yeah, that certainly clarifies things -- a lot.

Poor child.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #61
222. Thank you. I was hoping for clarification from anyone who was
familiar with the case.

The main question that some of us raised was, if he did stop when she asked, why was he found guilty and you filled in the missing info.

Still, since this story WAS published in the main stream media, it is important to point out any distortions, omissions and simple lies.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
237. Um... she was eighteen at the time, a college student
Not that it lessens the charges but when you say she was a teenager you are as guilty as your "fucking media" in inflaming the readers.

She was the driver, the rapist was a teenager

From the same report:

Appellant and Mike smoked marijuana and suggested getting a hotel room, given that the girls were old enough to rent a room. When they began discussing sex, appellant
produced three condoms. Lacey told the others that she did not want to accompany them.

The complainant complied with the request of appellant and Mike to sit between them on the back seat of her car. Mike put her hand down in his pants and asked her “to lick it.” Appellant then asked her to expose her breasts; when she did not comply, he fondled her breast with his hand.

After Jewel acquiesced to the boys’ insistence that they stay ten more minutes, she found herself on her back with appellant removing her jeans and Mike sitting on her chest, attempting to place his penis in her mouth.

========

I am having hard time understanding why she stayed in the back seat. She was the driver, it was her car. And what does it mean "found herself on her back?" Was she forced? This was not mentioned.

I am reminded of the Clinton-Paula Jones story. When he asked her to come to his hotel room, what was she expecting? A poetry reading?

Yes, when she says no it means NO. And one should stay away from dark allies of bad parts of town but, really, some common sense, please?




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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
88. If it's Iraq, the U.S. should try it and see whether it can beat the rap.
The original infringement was a crime, as have subsequent brutal and negligent actions; but a rapid withdrawal would at least contain the damage.

In the interpersonal case, it's a lot more difficult and depends on so many contingencies.
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helderheid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
97. We need to pull out of Iraq and stop THAT rape.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
106. Are you saying that in Maryland and North Carolina if sex becomes painful the participants are
nevertheless obliged to continue the act to completion and you cannot insist on stopping the act because you no longer consent to it after it has become painful?

That seems unlikely. Even if Maryland and North Carolina defined rape so peculiarly, both states define battery as the offensive touching of a person by another without consent so persisting in the act once consent has been withdrawn would nevertheless amount to battery.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #106
115. That is correct.
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 05:06 PM by Marie26
In this case, the appellate court overturned the trial court, and ruled that it still was not a rape, because the woman had consented before he began the act. So, under NC & MD law, once a woman consents, that consent cannot be withdrawn, even if she's under duress or in pain. The court actually quoted ancient Biblical & Middle Eastern law on a woman's "deflowering" to reach this decision. It's a stunning, sickening ruling.

Quote from the MD appeals court decision in this case: "It was this view that the moment of penetration was the point in time, after which a woman could never be re-flowered, that gave rise to the principle that, if a woman consents prior to penetration and withdraws consent following penetration, there is no rape. Maryland adheres to this tenet, having adopted the common law, which remains the law of the Land until and unless changed by the States highest court or by statute..

"The controversial part of this case comes from the appellate court's decision that once penetration has occurred, consent cannot be withdrawn for the purpose of determining guilt of rape. Although it is not applicable to this particular case, this has an obviously terrifying result: if a woman decides for whatever reason that she wants to stop having sex after consensual penetration (it hurts, she's just discovered that her partner is cheating on her or has a venereal disease, etc.), and the partner decides to hold her down, crying and screaming, until he reaches his own climax, it's still not rape.

This result is so awful that one wonders how on earth the court could have reached it."

http://www.resonant.org/20061101-sexual-consent-in-maryland

Looking at some of the responses on this thread, I don't wonder.
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Dastard Stepchild Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
110. It should not go much further than this...
...sex...sex...sex...

Partner One: Stop.

Partner Two: Huh? (I give that there might be a quizzical moment there when you have to process what has been said to you).

Partner One: I said stop. (or some version thereof).

By that second time, after you've had a few seconds to process new information, that should be all it takes to realize that someone has told you to stop.

Of course, this assumes sobriety and a whole other host of factors. But I hold fast and steady to the notion that once a "no" or a "stop" is exclaimed, you better stop and see what the hell is going on. Maybe you start up again with permission. Maybe you go home and finish the job yourself. But those words, I do believe, should be taken pretty seriously.

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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
117. I think it depends on what was said to get the woman to have sex...
If, as she is having sex, realizes that she was drunk or was lied to, then yes it should be.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
125. Not unless she never agreed to begin with.
If you pull out when she tells you to stop then no rape has occurred. I'd have to wonder why anyone would let it get that far before changing their mind. It's kind of a fucked up thing to do to someone.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
127. So if someone changes their mind, is it a breach of contract?
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
128. I had read the whole thread when I made my comment
And the additional information was not posted until after.

It was rape, no doubt about it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
130. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Deleted sub-thread
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. Read the details of the case.
You are clearly ignorant and vindictive if you take that completly asinine stance. I have never read a more sexist, sadistic reply here.

"saying "no" (oops, i didnt realize what sex was, tee hee hee) in the middle of act is beyond fucked up, and deserving of some sort of payback, at least in the real world"

Are you FUCKING SERIOUS???

Read post 61:

The Maryland case is portrayed here - as it has been in every media piece I've ever read about it - as if the incompetent manipulative woman just can't make up her mind. Does she want sex? Does she not? How's a poor fella to know? Clearly MEN are the victims here, cause lord knows they always are, whenever a rape case comes up.

Here are the details of that case which the media doesn't think are relevant enough to report:

She is a teenager, in a car with two boys. One asks her to show them her breasts, she says no. He grabs her breast. One of the boys sits on her chest and tries to put his penis in her mouth, the other is removing her jeans. She tells them to stop. They reposition her, then one of them is holding her arms down while the other penetrates her.

Jumping ahead, then the other boy says it’s his turn.

Q. : And what else did he say?
A. He, after that we sat there for a couple seconds and he was like so are you going to let me hit it and I didn’t really say anything and he was like I don’t want to rape you.
Q. So when Maouloud said I don’t want to rape you, did you respond?
A. Yes. I said that as long as he stops when I tell him to, then -
Q. Now, that he could?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you feel like you had a choice?
A. Not really. I don’t know. Something just clicked off and I just did whatever they said.
Q. Now when you told if I say stop, something like that, you have to stop. What did he do after you spoke those words?
A. Well he got on top of me and he tried to put it in and it hurt. So I said stop and that’s when he kept pushing it in and I was pushing his knees to get off me.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #130
136. Deleted message
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. Ah, I doubt it. Sounds to me like
what he WISHES would happen and what he IMAGINES he would do.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. you're probably right...
as I said upthread, some assholes think handing her a kleenex and cabfare is thoughtful and considerate :grr:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #139
148. Deleted message
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #130
142. Dude, read the description
She was clearly not getting away with anything!

Ladies, please don't hold us responsible for this guy's post.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #142
147. LOL don't worry, we don't!
if I thought all men were like that, then I would never let myself get laid! :rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #130
146. Deleted sub-thread
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #130
152. Deleted sub-thread
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #130
154. Yep, we have it sooooooooo easy - lying about being raped PWNS!!111!!!!111
Get a grip - clearly you do not possess the intelligence or maturity required to comprehend this subject matter.

Call back when you've graduated high school.
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JerseygirlCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #130
161. Do yourself a favor and read post #61 nt
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. Self-delete, apparently I can't read a thread properly sorry lol.
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 08:45 PM by Katherine Brengle
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #130
164. You advocate and instigate "payback" against a woman who says no?
Nice.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #130
168. that's a wtf post if I've ever seen one
:wtf:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. It's gone.
But yeah, clearly some high school boy who had no clue... and issues.
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #170
183. Did he come back and try to defend that?
I missed all the excitement.
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #183
197. See post # 196. nt
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #183
224. dammit nt
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Perky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
135. Of Course it is.. If you don't stop you are a selfish pig. N/T
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
141. I'm recommending this thread, and here's why.
The vast majority of us are at the point where we see a media report about a terrorist attack, and we think "corporate media bullshit artists, I bet they're misrepresenting the facts." We've learned to be skeptical. We've learned they report things in a way to manipulate us to get an emotional reaction.

And the reason we are skeptical is that we know who operates the media, and that they are looking out for their own interests. Those with power get to put their spin on the news, and they take advantage of it. So we get richwhiteguy news, and we've learned to take that with a grain of salt.

But if the media reports on rape - all of a sudden all that knowledge we have flies out the window. We take everything at face value.

Read the early responses in this thread. We react like freepers, sucking down the koolaid, without stopping to think, wait, does this even make sense?

Here, even without knowing the facts of the case (because the media opted not to include details like the victim said stop and tried to push him off before rapist #2 - who had assisted rapist #1 - had even fully penetrated her injured vagina), the story is that in a country where 1 in 6 women are the victims of a sexual assault, and the rape prosecution rate hovers at 2%, the law has been changed to make it even MORE difficult for a rapist to be convicted. But the story is written from whiterichguy's perspective, because that's who owns the media. In this case, white rich guy is manipulating the story so we see it from his potential victim perspective. Thus the twist is that "OMG, a woman could wait til my penis is in her and I'm about to orgasm, then yell to stop and I might not be able to, and if that happened, I could be SCREWN!!!"

Well, shit, you weren't going to be prosecuted anyway. Look at the statistics, for chrissakes.

This is right up there with "OMG, We need the patriot act - and lots of duct tape - and we need to round up all the immigrants and stick them in camps because the terrorists are about to land on my farm in the middle of Podunk, Nowhere and launch an assault on my cow pasture." The news isn't being reported from the perspective of the actual victims - because they aren't the ones who own the networks.

So I'm recommending this in the hope - although I know it will do no good - that the next time the media is reporting a rape story, people will stop to think "wait, does this make sense?" and show the same sort of skepticism they'd show if the media were covering any other sort of story.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #141
144. Me too, well said. nt
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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. I will join you in that receommendation and add to it.
In my opinion, it also showed some SERIOUS misogynistic attitudes.

We knew this went to trial and that a jury heard the case and made it's decision based on all of the details. A snippet from an article is posted with a particular slant. Some were so quick to make the illogical leap that this case was possibly a women "scorned" or that she willingly participated out of love and passion at ALL and then turned into a "tease".

Yeah, us damned feminists are out to seek revenge against all of the icky boys because we're vindictive bitches. Oh, and we should get out asses kicked by some mean popular girl.

Sick. Really sick.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #141
158. Great post
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 08:48 PM by Marie26
I'm recommending this thread just for your wonderful posts on this issue. The article was totally slanted, and the thread title was even more so.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #141
221. wish I could 'recommend' this post.
:thumbsup:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
149. y'know, i'm reaLLy snickersed out right now
so i can't even read this right now or i know i'LL way too sLeepy at work tomorrow.

i'm gonna hope the titLe of this thread is no indication of its content.
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
151. In this case, if events really happened as pointed out in #61, the two males were rapists.
They intimidated her into "consenting," which isn't consent at all.

But as for whether it's rape in another case in which consent is withdrawn during the act and consent really had been given without duress, I'm ambivalent. If it took the accused 1 second to comply, I'd say he was innocent. If it took ten minutes, he's guilty of rape. But somewhere in between it's pretty gray. Unless there's evidence of a struggle it seems like it would be really hard to make a case.

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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #151
156. 1 second and 10 minutes are very very different -- in between is not a grey area -
I'd say anything under 30 seconds is a grey area, and beyond that it's plain as day what's happening.

The problem is, how do you prove it? Like most rape cases, it's unlikely cases like this would be tried, and even less likely end in a conviction.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #156
165. Katherine!
30 seconds is a very long damn time. Just think of the worst commercial you know of, the one you absolutely hate the most -- it's 30 seconds long.

Count it off yourself. It's an INTERMINABLE length of time if you're in pain, horrified, under duress, terrified, hysterical, powerless, (add your own mental/emotional state description).

Try 3 seconds max. :spank:
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #165
171. Okay, fair, I didn't actually count it out - it IS too long -
"Stop."

1-Mississippi
2-Mississippi
3-Mississippi

3 seconds sounds fair. At least to stop moving, and assess the situation.

In the actual case the thread is about, it was already too late - that was already rape before the situation in question ever arose.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #171
232. Exactly right
In the actual case the thread is about, it was already too late - that was already rape before the situation in question ever arose.

And I hope you didn't mind me challenging you on your post, but you're such an informed and articulate spokewoman for women's issues that I just didn't want that time estimate of yours to stand.

:thumbsup:
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piedmont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #156
220. I said *somewhere* between 1 second and 10 minutes
30 seconds (or three, for that matter) is between 1 second and ten minutes. And yes, I do believe the gray area is on the VERY short end of the scale.


"The problem is, how do you prove it? Like most rape cases, it's unlikely cases like this would be tried, and even less likely end in a conviction."

Just like I said-- it would be difficult to make a case if there's no evidence of a strugggle. And probably even then it would be hard to make.
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salinen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
159. "The murkiness surrounding what's reasonable has deepened further
" How Freudian.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
173. If I was fucking and she started saying no no no!
I'd probably freak out and stop. I think it would be a mood killer for 99% of the population. That is about as far as I will go with trying to figure that one out.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #173
174. There is a lot more to the story than the OP revealed.
See post #61 I believe.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #174
176. The whole thing sounds strange, it is a slippery slope
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 09:12 PM by Rex
of moral relevancy.

Edit - Okay looking at post 61 and now see they are talking about rape. The OPs thread title and the situation described in a courtroom have nothing to do with each other. I guess we can call it deceptive threading?

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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #176
177. Like I said, post 61 --
in this particular case, one male had already raped the victim when she "consented" to the second (no consent under duress as another poster already said, so this is moot imo) - then withdrew that consent bc she was in terrible pain.

Although, in my opinion, if you are having sex with a person and said person (of either gender) tells you to stop, you stop, immediately, no questions asked.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. Yeah I saw the left out testamony the M$M didn't mention.
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 09:15 PM by Rex
The holding down and penetration are clearly rape. I didn't have to read anymore and would like to say I'm not surprised by the M$M leaving that information out.
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #177
190. The question though is what is considered "immediately"?
.2 seconds? 3 seconds? 5? 20?

This is a pretty important thing to know - because if any guy hears the word "stop" or "no" during sex - if you don't stop within 5 seconds you could go to jail for 15 years in some states.

What if there is loud music playing? What if he doesn't hear her demand right away?

The point is, unless this gets clearly defined - men are putting themselves at GREAT risk by chosing to have sex with a woman - EVER.

I read the case, and post 61 - and even post #61 didn't include all the information.

This 18 year old girl stopped the car and got into the back of the vehicle with her boyfriend and a 16 year old boy AFTER they had been talking about having a 3-way. She proceeded to give her boyfriend a hand job in front of the 16 year old.

The kid ASKED her if it was okay if they had sex, he wanted her permission so he wouldn't get accused of rape or anything. So she said YES. And if you read her testimony, even in the court room she was very ambiguous about whether she felt she had no choice.

She said both "Yes" and "I don't know" and "I just sort of did what ever they said" in the same breath.

Come on. It sounds more to me like she was saying yes and no and maybe so to two boys who were stoned. She never clearly stated to the boys "No. Absolutley not."

She stopped the car and got into the back. They didn't force her to do that. She said yes to the boys request and he stopped within 5 seconds!!

Sounds like a bunch of stoned, horny, stupid teenagers that got confused about what they wanted and now all these women want the 16 year old boy to fry?

I think Maryland's Court of Special Appeals made the right call in this case.
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #190
196. Radical feminists have a lot in common with xtian fundies, imo
Both have a strong need to control all human sexuality. Both view the male sex drive as evil, and females as delicate flowers to be protected, fearful of horny males who seek to "exploit" them.

In my view, they are both sexist and un-American, any way you cut it, against both men and women.

I've always supported women's rights - non-victim feminism - ie more Paglia than Dworkin.

You said:The point is, unless this gets clearly defined - men are putting themselves at GREAT risk by chosing to have sex with a woman - EVER.

This is true nowadays, unless you select your crowd right, and perhaps have less casual sex (exactly what the rad fems and xtian fundies want). Also masturbation is a great option (another reason rad fems and xtian fundies want to take away free porn) it's safe, free and always ready for action :).

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HoneyBee Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. Is ignorance really bliss, rzr?? If so, you must be on "Cloud 9®"
Nice view from up there?
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #196
204. Hi, Rush! I'd heard the rumors you visited here
now I see they're true. I'm sure you know a lot more about the masturbation you speak of than any of the rest of the ignorant blather you're spouting.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #196
228. here's a feminist perspective on sex for you
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 01:35 PM by VelmaD
Go fuck yourself

That is the most ridiculous misrepresentation of "radical" feminism I've read in a long time...and on DU that's saying something.
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #228
231. Whatever, it's not like rad fems to tolerate any real debate anyway. nt
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #231
235. yeah, 'cause comparing feminists you don't like to xtian fundies...
is a sure fire way to encourage debate. Not.

What. Ever.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-08-07 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #196
238. Rape is not sex.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #190
211. Did you make up that version while you were smoking crack?
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 12:42 AM by lwfern
I'm not seeing any reference to a "boyfriend" in the court document I linked - unless you are counting the victim's friend and the friend's boyfriend, who were both gone by the time the rape occurred.

The only people present during the rape were Jewel (the victim), Maouloud Baby (rapist #2), and Michael Wilson (rapist #1) - who pled guilty to rape in the incident, see pg 39.

Given that rapist #1 pled guilty, it's an established fact that he raped her, and that rapist #2 was an accomplice to that, prior to any "consent." If two guys have just held you down and raped you, and guy number two announces it's his turn and says he doesn't want to "rape" you - there's a damn good chance you're going to read that as "don't make me be violent," and that you're already in a state of trauma at that point, and looking to get out of the situation alive - in other words shutting down mentally and going along with whatever they say to the extent that you can by then.
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renate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #190
227. what a mess this case is
I guess I'd like to know (not that I expect you to know the answer, unless you were in the courtroom) who exactly was talking about a three-way. Was it her idea at all, or was it just the two boys bugging her to do it? There'd be a big difference between her saying "hey guys, I have a great idea" and the two of them pressuring her or maybe even threatening her.

Since she had to be held down at some point in all this, I'm guessing this wasn't her idea, although this whole thread is a lesson in not making assumptions.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
187. Flipped my lid
You guys are going to think I've flipped my lid with this digression but bear with me.

I run some fan-groups for some television shows, Buffy, etc. One of the shows we cover is Veronica Mars. It's kind of a hip mystery, kind of like Buffy, etc. This last season THE mystery arc was about a campus rapist. You guys would be stunned at some of the crap some of the people on these groups thought and posted. We had probably 20 different members write in that maybe the rapes were fake. Maybe the women were making it up to get boys in trouble. ...AND maybe the rapist was a woman.

Like Buffy, this show appeals to people of all ages but most of the ones with these opinions were in their early twenties and late teens. I was disheartened to say the least.
Madspirit
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #187
191. *sigh* I wish I was shocked
but I can't say that I am.

In my early days at DU there was a late night thread by a young guy who was stating that women get abused in relationships b/c they only date 'bad boys' (ergo they don't date me) and ergo by social darwinism men learn to be horrid (dominant and abusive to women) b/c the guys who arent horrid don't ever date (and mate and have kids) and thus men become programmed to be horrid and abusive to women and the rant went on to blame women for this situation.

Dude and his thread lasted for a little while - but were both nuked (Tomb Stoned) within a day. But before some women posted to object to the premise of the thread... there were a bunch of "I hear you" or "high five" posts.

Why do I remember this nearly five years later? Because it shocked me to the bone - not the post (which shook me - but those sentiments exist) - but the folks who initially responded with high fives (ala the nice guys don't get dates which is how the OP began before it got seriously mysognistic) - the reflexive agreement shocked me. Yes, it is very disheartening.
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #191
193. It shocks me
Thats why I end up posting on these threads, though I'm always shaken by them. It shocks me. This is what (ok, some) men really think, when they're not trying to be nice or make a good impression. When it's safe & anonymous & they can tell the truth. It is very disheartening, but I guess it's enlightening as well.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #193
200. agreed - but on most threads,
there are so many more men who are confrontational with the cavement posts - that it gives me hope. I don't know that would have been the case 20 years ago. So while some posts unnerve me (as a rape survivor), the multitude of counter posts (esp those by men) give me some comfort.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #187
199. My biggest surprise
The ones who thought the rapist would turn out to be a woman. Yeah right because serial object-rapist women are so common.

...and that most of the people who wrote this stuff were kids. THAT was what I found the most disheartening. Most of the respondents were in their early twenties and late teens. That depressed me the most, for some reason.
Madspirit
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
192. I'm in a permanent relationship, so my case is moot, but it's a fucked situation if it gets to that
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 10:36 PM by TankLV
point...

Must have been a LOT of things going on for someone to suddenly go from "let's do it NOW" - to "get off me you bastard - RAPE!"

Seems to me the better thing would not to have been in that position to begin with - for BOTH parties...

something is missing from the narrative...

Found it in post #61.

The "situation" BEGAN as "rape" - everything else is just baggage and window dressing.

The whole thing from the get-go was rape.

To consider it anything else requires a vivid prejudiced imagination. Period.

Hope these guys "enjoy" the prison shower - repeatedly...
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #192
205. nice. prison rape of males is humorous, yet rape of females is crisis. nt
Edited on Tue Feb-06-07 11:12 PM by rzr77
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #205
206. I thought you said raping females was "payback"
in the message that was deleted. Right?
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #206
209. ~
Why the heck wasn't his DU membership deleted?! Good grief. :banghead:
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #209
210. Beats me...and there's another one around too.
People are getting away with some serious shit lately.
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #206
212. I never said that - let the mods pull it back up and check it.
I said I've always had many female friends, some of them "mean girl" types, who would not take lightly to some psychotic chick trying to frame me for rape/sexual assault I would never commit. In other words, my friends would come to my defense - quite common in the real world where I come from.
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #212
213. Didn't you say that a girl who stopped in the middle of sex
deserved "payback?" And you were responding to the OP. So if that's not what you meant, you didn't phrase it very well because a few other people besides me understood it to mean just that.
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rzr77 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #213
214. I think she does deserve some type of justice
if she stopped in the middle of sex and then tried to accuse the male of rape.

False rape accusations, imo, should be tried and punished just as severely as rape.

Also, I could not prevent my female friends from defending me against some nut, as I know they would.
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blonndee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #214
215. Thanks for the clarification.
When it comes to this kind of stuff you have to be careful to be clear and mature about it. I'm not crazy about your inaccurate characterization of "radical feminists" above, either. You're just way wrong. If you do a little reading you'll find that the kind of characterization that feminists get from the RWers and the corporate media is WAY off. But anyway, I've got to head to bed soon, so bye.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #214
225. You seem to be operating under the delusion that this happens a lot --
Edited on Wed Feb-07-07 12:15 PM by Katherine Brengle
and it doesn't. ACTUAL LEGITIMATE rape is the most pervasive crime in our culture - it effects women on such a scale that most of us live our entire lives under an umbrella of fear that it will one day be OUR turn.

You need to educate yourself before you attempt to speak about this with any ligitimacy.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #214
230. ?
What are you 12?

"...and then my girl gang beats the bad bad woman up."

Jeez much.
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951-Riverside Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
218. "we don't have complete control over our ability to stop" - Mel Feit
If I ever met this guy in person I'd probably not have complete control over my ability to (censored for legal reasons) up his ass.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-07-07 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
234. apart from the legal issue, I wouldn't WANT to continue if she said stop.
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