I am not posting this in anger, or in the heat of the moment

[dsc]

I am posting this with cold, reflective thought. I am sick to death of hearing mostly straight people tell me that I am somehow deluded when I see homophobia. I have never kissed a man in public aside from a gay bar. While I am currently in a bit of a drought it isn't like I have never dated. I just never lived in a place safe enough to do so. I never lived in a place where kissing a man didn't have the potential of getting me beaten up. I am surely not unique. The editor of the Washington Blade was recently attacked when he walked the streets of Amsterdam with his boyfriend. A current poll in the LGBT forum suggests that close to a third of all gays have been attacked themselves and another half know a person who has been. I say all of this to help you understand how I viewed that ad.

While the ad itself was borderline, the website had lots of extras. You could see various football players venting their feelings, mostly disgust, with the 'kiss' in the ad. You could see the men in the ad driven to escalating depths to escape the vileness of their act. In one ad the men drink various poisons and in another they bash each other. How could we possibly be upset at this?

It isn't like it happens all the time. No wait, it is like that. Every single day in the country some number of gay men and lesbian women get the crap beat out of them for daring to be gay. Some of them get beaten in the act of holding hands or kissing. The same random acts that so many couples take for granted can literally lead to the death of a gay couple. Some of them might even have been beaten with a wrench.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. Dude, you really need to lighten up.

:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

173. OMFG -- I was ready to go all Jersey on you, then I saw it was you!

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

176. OMFG! I almost did the same thing!

[cotdom]

188. Your posting changed me. Along with some other postings this wk.

Your posting brought tears to my eyes. And shame to my heart. I have not posted here on this, I have read all the posting on it this week.

I strongly dislike the right wing, insincere evangelicals, anyone who does not heed science, and any and all gay bashing. I would never make fun of it. Or would I. I just was wrong about what gay bashing was.

I have always felt that I treated homosexuality for what it was, a natural biological occurrence. Every bit as equal as my attraction to the opposite sex.

I am a progressive. I did not believe I was prejudiced in any way.

I did not find the advertisement offensive. "Whats the big deal" was my thoughts.

I have said things like "don't be gay", or "that sweater looks gay" or "that is so gay." I simply did not know any of this was offensive.

I will NEVER, NEVER say anything like that again. I will NEVER, NEVER find any of this humorous again. I cannot think of a time when I was not empathetic, but this has certainly been an issue I should have been vocal against.

I am not being sarcastic.

I apologize for this. I was wrong. I specifically and sincerely apologize to you for my thoughtlessness. When I am finished with this posting, I promise to make amends, beginning with a new policy in my company (a dozen employees) that this is as offensive as any other type of discrimination, and jokes about it will get a discussion from me. I will explain my reasoning.

Thanks.

[Maraya1969]

194. Cotdom that was such a nice post. Great to have you at DU. Welcome.

:yourock:

[dsc]

195. Great post and thanks

You are a great person.

[Ian David]

2. So obvious that it's not even a close call.

Anyone who does not get it, or refuses to get it, simply does not have any right to call themselves a Progressive and has no business on DU.

Period.

It's that obvious, and THAT far over the line.

[TankLV]

51. I heartily agree.

I ALWAYS censure myself when I'm with my partner.

We NEVER express affection for one another in anything but "safe" surroundings. Period.

To delude oneself and pretend it is anything other than a hateful, bigoted closeted society, is unforgivable...

[MotorCityMan]

148. Same here, TankLV

My partner and I are ALWAYS careful in public. I find, at 42, that the older I get the less I care who knows I'm gay. But, it is very hard to let go of the fear that being TOO affectionate or too obviously a couple will cause us to be attacked. I have, fortunately, never been physically assaulted, but verbally (for having the nerve to be entering a known gay bar) many times.

This whole Snickers episode is pathetic. Just a few weeks ago, we caught part of the show Brothers and Sisters. One of the brothers is gay, and they had a nice scene where he embraced and kissed his boyfriend. I was very plesantly surprised. After all the bs over a gay kiss on Melrose Place years ago, Roseanne, too, it was nice to see on a network show.

The Snickers ad is definitely a step in the wrong direction. I didn't see it on tv, but checked out the website. I thought it was offensive and not funny.

What gives me hope is the younger generation. My partner's 15 year old nephew knows we are a couple and doesn't care. He has friends at school who identify as gay and bisexual, and it is no big deal to him, even though he is straight. I can't even comprehend the idea of being out when I was in high school in the eighties.

[IndyOp]

207. My recent experiences match yours - in terms of attitudes of the young.

I teach IntroPsych at a college and do not shy away from discussing homosexuality. I get mixed reactions when I talk about the causes - genetics, environment.... Some students seem to cling to the idea that sexual orientation is a choice even when I provide multiple examples of research showing genetic predispositions. Still, I've had two memorable moments just this semester. When I mentioned the suicide rate among teenage boys who are gay and when I mentioned the origin of the pink triangle symbol, on both occasions the class looked stunned - there was palpable silence. I am grateful for whatever seems to be making them more open, more compassionate.

:hug:

[MotorCityMan]

212. That is so good to hear!

Hell, my PARTNER and I disagree on choice vs. biology. He feels there is some choice involved. I feel the only choice is being true to your own nature, or to live a lie.

It is shocking and incredibly sad that there are still teenagers killing themselves just because they are gay (and I'm not saying there is any GOOD reason for anyone to take that drastic step).

If I remember correctly, back when Bush Sr. was president, they did a study on teenage suicide and one of the conclusions was a high percentage were doing so because they were gay. As that was NOT the conclusion they wanted, they threw the report out.

It's nice to hear that I am not the only one who has noticed more acceptance in the younger generation. I had a theory years ago that eventually society will reach the point where whether you're gay or straight is no big deal; I just don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

[Morgana LaFey]

53. I happen to agree

I about lost my lunch over the violent version. I didn't see the poison but would have been equally nauseated, and there was simply no viable excuse for the self-destructive version.

No excuse in this day and time for that kind of bigoted hatred in any way on our national airwaves and cable. None. Period, end of discussion.

And no excuse for any DUer not to get it. None. Period. If they DON't get it, they need to do some serious research and/or soul searching. Basically it amounts to this: any revulsion at two people of the same sex getting close, even kissing, or even having sex IS homophobia. The heart and soul of homophobia. That revulsion fuels the hatred and discrimination and is used to further the hatred and discrimination, and that hatred and discrimination fuels violence against gays and lesbians (and bi's and transgendered individuals).

People are dying because they are gay. Too many of them are teens, dying at their own hands. I remember, with great sorrow, hearing a gay author (I don't remember who, but he wrote a book about growing up gay in the South) reveal that as a teen he used to pray every night to either wake up different (straight), or not wake up at all. NO ONE, esp. not a child, should be made to feel that way.

For those of you who don't get it, your revulsion, or your finding the characters' revulsion "funny" contributes to the carnage and tragedy and heartache and death. Death by suicide and death by assault. And death (esp. in previous years) by AIDS.

It has to stop. Let it stop with those of you who don't get it.

[Prophet 451]

133. I don't get it

Admittedly, I don't get it because I didn't see the commercial (I'm English) and can't see it on YouTube (bandwidth won't take it) so can someone explain why is was so controversial?

[Lucky Luciano]

205. I saw the ad as offensive, but

I must say that there can be some people that could contribute to this site who do not see the offense. This is a democratic website - not specifically a progressive one. It is clear that the most vocal people are more to the left though. I am definitely not a full-on progressive myself, but I like to talk to the progressives and hear their points of view. Sometimes I think they are right...and sometimes I don't...Either way, I want that asshole in the whitehouse Mussolinied.

[jobycom]

3. Yep. I'm surprised thereare other opinions on the matter. nt

[blonndee]

4. Happy to be the 5th.

Well said.

[stevedeshazer]

5. You're not deluded.

I'm straight, but I cringe at homophobia.

Once upon a time, I was chased into a blind alley and had the crap beat out of me.

Why?

Because, according to my attackers, I looked "queer".

I get it.

This ad merely confirms what is already widely known: We have a long way to go to overcome prejudice and hatred.

[Bluebear]

6. Wow, you need to chill! My neighbor has a lesbian friend who thought it was funny!

:sarcasm:

[Turn CO Blue]

41. Hey! My cousin had a neighbor who has a lesbian daughter who

thought it was funny! Wow, what a small world!

:sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

7. There have been some really obnoxious

posters around the last couple days. Being nastily outright uncaring and posting continually nasty hurtful stuff. It hurts. I don't care if it is someone telling you your getting raped is your responsibility or someone telling you accept the fact that you will get beat up on because you are something. It all sucks and is wrong.

[noamnety]

8. This is why the ad wasn't funny:

Edna Brown
Tyra Hunter
Huriell Lockett
(David King)
Unknown
New York City, 1972
Rhonda Star
(Ronnie Dean Lyles)
Cynthia Coffman
Felicia Coffman
Harvey Aberles
Unknown
Atlanta, 10/29/91
Jamie Ford
Jean (Woodrow) Powell
Unknown,
Atlanta 12/20/92
Anthony Swain
Derry Glenn
Quincy Favors Taylor
Lynn Therrett
David A. Perez
Michelle Maree
Rev. John “Gypsy” Prowett
Chanelle Pickett
Brandon
Logan Smith
Robyn Brown
(James Brown)
Maxwell Confait
Giuseppe Mandanici
Marsha P. Johnson
Alan Fitzgerald Walker
Jae Stevens
Stella Essie
(Jerome Brent)
Debra Forte
Unknown,
Madrid, 1997
Jose Angel Osuna
Mara Duvouw
John
Sigfrilda Shantall
Pastor Arguelles
Fitzroy “Jamaica” Green
Luana
(Junior de Silva Lago)
Chanel Chandler
Rita Hester
Unknown
Santa Ana, 11/20/88
Harold Draper
Richard Goldman
Monique Rogers
Jessy Santiago
Cameron “Tina” Tanner
Robert Woefel
Thomas Hall
Maria “La Conchita”
Palencia
Rene “Michelle” Ouellet
Tasha Dunn
Terrie Ladwig
Chrissey (Marvin) Johnson
Steven Wilson
Christian Paige
Vianna Faye Williams
Johanna Langer
Unknown
Guatemala City, 1997
Robert H. Jones
Stacey Estupinian
Unknown
Los Angeles, 1991
Diane Delia
Marcela
(Sergio Arias)
Lisa Janna Black
Janice Ricks
Dianne Aubert
Deanna Wilkinson
Larry Laverne Turner
Karla (José Alexis) Barrahona
Mocha Celis
Shawn Keegan
Keooudorn Phothisane
Castro Nova Estabon
Gracie (James) Detzler
Felix Abarca
Nikki
Jerrell Williams
Venus Xtravaganza
Donald Pierce
Monique (Rufus) Thomas
Lauryn Paige
(Donald Fuller)
Carlos “Tasha” Santiago
Lazaro Comesana
Peggy Santiago
Carmen Marie Montoya
Rafael Sanchez Ayala
Jody Susan Ford
Steve Dwayne Garcia
Grayce “Candace” Baxter
Robert Eads
William Battles
Unknown
Philadelphia, 1995
Anna Francisco
Lynn Montana
Patrick Calvert
Gisele Gaga’
Tarayon Corbitt
Stephan “Stephanie” Chapman
Unknown
Houston, 2/25/99
Ashley-Ann Summers
(Eric Farrow)
Cam (Camilla) Lyman
Chantal Gillade
Ernest “Ernestine” Murray
Unknown
Oakland, 7/10/95
Gordon Tuckey
Regina Haskins
David F. McLaughlin
Unknown
Bronx, 2/8/92
Donnie O. Osby
Larry Venzant
Leslie Re’Geanne
Alanna Kella
Reynaldo “Reyna” Sandoval
Unknown
Washington, D.C., 1/4/82
Rosando “Crystal” Sanchez-Reyes
Tracy Thompson
James “Tatiana” Rivers
Tara O’Hara
Ruby Bota
Philip Robert Filshie
Daniel A. Castro
“Midnight”
(Kenneth Dale Robinson)
Christiaan D’Arcy
Jacqueline Julita Anderson
David Edward Wigley
Unknown
San Antonio, 03/29/91
Unknown
Akron, 09/17/94
Emmon Bodfish
(Margaret Bodfish)
Carol Wright
Unknown
San Diego, 6/22/94
Valerie Hill
Shannon Elroy Clay
Derrick “Miss Tess” Hampton
Unknown
Miami, 1984
Barbara (William) Brodie
Jean Shelley
Boushard Fox
Toni (David) Lowry
Martine Bohn
Chiron Collins
(Allen Kenneth Byrd)
Jonathan “Tanya” Streater
Faustino “Tina” Arroyo
Diane (Anthony Ellsworth) Carter
Sherri Ransom
Tianna (Timothy) Langley
Steven Hernandez
Samantha York
Eduardo Lora Vasallio
Michelle Byrne
Juaquin Jiminez
Linda Williams
Vernon Sivills
Maurice E. Murray
Lim Yeow Chuan
Jessica (Gerardo) Castillo
Phyllis Olson
“Benderella”
Cortez Morris
Clyde Massie
Terry Wilson
Charles Albert Lizotte
Felix Benitez
Terri Williams Moore
Jane Golden
(James Boyd)
Ramon Baez
Victor Hugo Castillejos
Rita Sellers
Carla Leigh Salazar
Perry Young
Unknown
Boston, 1979
Vanessa (Barry) Lane
Rodney D. Neadeau
Ali He’shun Forney
Unknown
Santa Ana, 7/10/93
Dion Webster
Adele Bailey
Kevin Freeman
Pfc. Barry Winchell
Yancey-Lisa R.
Yamile (Jorge) Lee
Barbarella
(Joe V.)
Kareem Washington
Barretta Williams
Marvin Ball
Chareka Keys
“Tiny”
(Robert Howard Gibson)
Quona R. Clark
Tacy Raino Ranta
Lindsey Alexander
(Todd Alexander Asay)
Unknown
Dallas, 12/8/99
Toni Lee
Alina Marie Barragan
Christine Chappel
Jill Seidel
Delores Mack
Ihok
(Hugo Yonathan)
Vanesa-Lorena Ledesma
(Miguel Angel Ledesma)
Curdell James III
Michelle Lynne O’Hara
Carla Natasha Hunt
Stephanie Yazum
(Frank Yazum)
Toya Charlton
Andre Vacarro
Tyra Henderson
Amanda Milan
Julie Birchall
Unknown
New York City, 1975
Déjà (Dondre) Johnson
Astrid La Fontaine
Dayana
(Jose Luis Nieves)
Keith E. Jackson
Julia Carrizales
Beverly Lineth
Dinh Van Vo
Brandi Houston
James Jerome Mack
Ana Melisa Cortez
Billy Jean Lavette
Antonio Johnson
Francisco Javier Luna
Robert Martin
Sissy (Charles) Bolden
F.C. Martinez, Jr.
Jamie (James) Jackson
Loni Okaruru
Joanne Lillecrapp
Willie Houston
Alexandra
Unknown
Rome, 9/12/98
Carlo Enrique Teixeira
Marzia De Melo Rosa
Antonio Texera Dos Santos
Antonia K.
Terrianne Summers
Faye Urry
Bibi Barajas
(Hugo Cesar Barajas)
Marquita (Martin) Johnson
Michelle Paz
Unknown
Indonesia, 5/17/02
Gary “Brazon” McMurtry
Unknown
Japan, 2/26/02
Arlene (Hector) Diaz
Aretha “ReRe” Scott
(Franklin Freeman)
Alejandro Ray Lucero
Della Reeves
(Lester Childress)
Amy (Raymond) Soos
“Walquiria”
(aka “Walter”)
Paola Matos
Leonela Valero Parra
Chris Muzett
(Eddie Matthews)
Anjie Milano (Andy Rafael Milano)
Nicole Lee Anderson
(Thomas Shrom)
Deasha
(Gerald Andrews)
Ukea Davis
Raymond Nonato
Stephanie Thomas
Victor Pachas
Pilar (Vladimir)
Ibáñez Carrasco
Sidnei Geber Aguila
Daniel Phillip
“Danielle” Redding
Raimundo Rocha Alves
Nguyen Bui Linh
Ontwon Curtis
Ediviana Lopez da Cruez
Joseph Moran
Porfiro Mejia
Gwen Araujo
Roberta Nizah Morris
Georgina Matehaere
Timothy “Cinnamon” Broadus
Nikki Nicholas
Danisha Victoria
Principal Williams
Chandini, aka Nazir
Mimi Young
Tanesha Starr
Luciana D. S. Oliveira Mazza
Tamyra Michaels
Shelby Tracey Tom
Ze Galhinha
Ronald Andrew Brown
Merlinka
(Vjeran Miladinovic)
Amanda Jofré
Unknown
Columbia, 03/06/03
Cinnamon (Kendrick) Perry
Nireah Johnson
Brandie Coleman
Ericka (Erick David) Yáñez
Jessica Mercado
Unknown
Brazil, 04/02
Fernanda Covarrubi
Jorge Rafael Cruz
Marcelo Cesar Goulart
Selena Álvarez-Hernández
Bella Evangelista
Emonie Kiera Spaulding
Michael Charles Hurd
“Amirilis”
Dayana Valverde
Rogelio Jiménez Cortez
Cassandra “Tula” Do
Enrico Taglialatela
“Sindy” Cuarda
Rider Orcero
Erika Johana
Lee “China” Zainal
Adrian Torres de Assuncao
Stanley Van Dyke Traylor
Unknown
New Zealand, 2/9/04
Reshae McCauley
Mickey Ward-El Smith
Precious Armani
Unknown
India, 6/7/04
Unknown
Puerto Rico, 7/11/04
Augusto Flores Munoz
Cedric Thomas
Pedro Cruz Ramos
Unknown
Puerto Rico, 7/11/04
Darryl Fearon
Gennaro Rizzo
Tony “Delicious” Green
LeandroÊBispo Estavao
Rivera Rene
Divas B
Joel Robles
Bella Martinez
Andre
Unknown
Long Beach, 11/06/04
Unknown
Peru, 11/26/04
Ryan Shey Hoskie
Penny Port
Karlien Carstens
Felicia Moreno
Alejandra Galicio
Luana
Unknown
Argentina, 1/12/05
Phool Chand Yadav
C. Hernández
Unknown
Argentina, 2/22/05
Eddie Chung Chou Lee
Timothy Blair, Jr.
Amancio “Delilah” Corrales
Ashley Nickson
Robert Binenfeld
Kasha Blue
Julio Argueta
Marisa
Ronnie Paris, Jr.
Mylène
Noleen Jansen
Irene
Lisa D.
Christina Smith
Kaaseem Adalla Juanda
Donathyn J. Rodgers
Unknown
Malaysia, 11/11/05

All dead from gender-based hate crimes.

Remember how funny it was when Bush was joking about looking under the table for those WMD's while people were coming home in flag-draped coffins?

[tnlefty]

104. OMG!

Thanks for this list, as it puts many lives into perspective.

I have a rep. and senators (FrankenFrist before he retired) who don't think that hate crimes legislation needed to be passed and it never mattered whether I called or wrote to them regarding crimes relating to race, women or gays. This will give me some more ammunition.

Really, thanks for this list.

[noamnety]

112. Those are just the people killed for being transgendered.

It doesn't begin to address nonfatal crimes, or those committed in response to a person being gay.

The GSA group at my school read their names on the Day of Remembrance this year.
http://www.gender.org/remember/day/what.html

And then we talked about how completely futile that gesture felt, standing out in the cold, reading their names into the wind. It's the same sense of helplessness I felt looking at Arlington Midwest when we were done attaching name cards to the tombstones.

[blondie58]

137. what a tragedy

so many people- so many innocents- so much pain

i am so sorry. but i never found bushs wmd joke funny.

[LostinVA]

175. Thank you

[myrna minx]

186. What an absolutely haunting list.

:cry:

[Joe for Clark]

9. Clearly - you mean what you say and you say it with passion.

Good for you!!

I don't know where you live - but it is sure not that way in LA.

Personally, I don't care at all what you choose to do in your personal life. It is nobodies business.

I wish the best to you - and you get my vote for best. And it is not because I agree with you on the premise - I appreciate the passion you have in delivery.

And I even think I am a fair christian - at least as I understand "christian"

Good luck to you!!

Joe

[FreeState]

18. Really?

I don't know where you live - but it is sure not that way in LA.

This happened in West Hollywood less than 4 years ago:


http://www.planetout.com/news/article.html?2003/09/29/3

The three suspects charged in a baseball-bat beating that nearly killed a gay man last year in West Hollywood, Calif., received prison sentences on Friday.

I live in San Diego and as gay friendly as it is this happened 8 months ago:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20060802-9999-7m2gayhate.html

Police are accusing a 24-year-old man and two teenage boys of sneaking up on six men and beating them – in five separate attacks – as they left the San Diego gay pride festival Saturday night in Balboa Park.

The assaults, which officials are calling brutal hate crimes, angered the city's gay and lesbian community and drew a dogged response from San Diego police.

[Joe for Clark]

27. Those are good and strong facts - but I still feel the same.

In the same period - did any black people get assualted because they were black - did any Latinos get assualted because of their race???

You make circumstance the cause - you know how many people live in LA or San Diego??

There are nuts in every city - that is just a risk we have for living in cities - isn't it??

Joe

[FreeState]

33. No its the risk of being gay

You make circumstance the cause - you know how many people live in LA or San Diego??

There are nuts in every city - that is just a risk we have for living in cities - isn't it??

Joe

No its the risk of being gay. Notice how they were all singled out because they were gay (Gay Pride Festival/Holding hands with partner). Im not to sure what other possible hate crimes you cited have to do with this.

[Joe for Clark]

40. If you don't understand that having a culture has something

to do with with risk - I don't know what to say.

I am not gay, black or latino - but I can clearly see the risk associated with being any of those things, too.

You seem to think being gay has a singular risk - well it does not. It is just a risk.

Joe

[FreeState]

42. Hmmm

Im still not following you... can you explain a little more?

[Joe for Clark]

47. I don't think I can -

Assume we all live in cities - the % of a populace that would react to us as ethno cultures is directly related to the number in that polulace. SO you live in LA- there are 6 million possible reactions. You live in a mid size city - maybe there are .6 million possible reactions.

10 to 1 - maybe??

Doesn't mean the "majority" don't react the same way - just means the are 10 times more of a given minority to react a different way - right??

SO I propose - for every death of a "gay" person - solely on the account of them being gay - there may in fact be some times that number of black, latino (fill in the blank) people killed on the account of their being of an ethno group. It is pretty simple. In a way.

There is some percentage of people that won't like you - just cause of who you are. And you will get a bigger reaction in a larger city - simply because there are so many more people there to react.

Joe

[FreeState]

70. So...

So if I read you correctly, you are saying because there are more people in larger cities there is a greater likelihood of people not liking you for one reason or another? All cultures are attacked for various reasons, so all attacks are equal (unless they are gay attacks because there are less of them and attacks on race are worse because there are more of them), so the fact that Snickers attacked gays should be no big deal?

I sure hope thats not what you are saying....

[Joe for Clark]

71. You understood correctly -

Verocity of attack I suppose depends on the ethnocentric position. Numbers engaged.

But sure - all ethno cultures will be attacked in some way at some reason. And the larger the polulace the larger the number of attackers.

Hey, man - that is america - isn't it??

FOr every gay man attacked in the city of LA I would bet 100 bucks that more than an equal number of blacks are attacked - say just in Compton - just cause they are black.

And we know reconstruction started 142 years ago now.

I guess it is true about america - we really are all equal - huh??


Joe

[FreeState]

74. Okay, but I disagree 100%

Okay I do understand where you are saying, however I totally 100% disagree with you.

It does not matter to me how many blacks are attacked or how many gays are attacked, each and every attack is wrong - with no greater weight in my eyes for what minority/culture group they belong to, no ones suffering is any less than anyone else's, and its not up to anyone to quantify anyones struggles or pain.

Besides you said that where you live does not have the same problems as the OP's place of residence, but did you not contradict yourself by saying that because your theory says there are more people in LA so the attacks should be more than the OP's place of residence.

[Joe for Clark]

80. You can agree with me or not - I respect that.

I DO live in Los Angeles - and we have six million (or so) people.

SO I would expect 10 times the numbers of attacks on smaller ethnic groups as as in a city of 600,000 - that is just math.

Joe

[cui bono]

120. But in your first post you said it doesn't happen here in L.A. but now you say it does.

Which it does. And it's wrong no matter what the % or amount is.

[motocicleta]

123. You started this with "It's not that way in LA"

I don't know what the hell that has to do with the premise that a gay guy is sick of being told there is no homophobia - but your subsequent argument states that it is precisely that way in LA, and it is just as bad for all other minority groups, so the OP shouldn't think the homosexuals are being unfairly targeted. I am sorry to say, sir, that all you have shown is that the homosexuals are unfairly targeted, just as the OP stated.

Where you could possibly think you were going with this, I can not imagine. Where you ended up is by saying, "Hey, gay folks. You shouldn't be upset - all the minorities get picked on in my town. You should just expect to get beaten like all the other minorities."

I have room in my heart to imagine that you were trying to say something rational and compassionate, so I will reserve my harsher comments for another day. I will say, however, that you aren't making any of my minority friends, race or sexuality wise, any more comfortable with their current lot in life, or any more pleased with straight white guys like me and I presume you. Therefore, I recommend you think long and hard about why you are telling us all that my buddy should relax about being unfairly targeted for physical violence. You might want to consider why you feel the need to post to a thread about oppression by suggesting that said oppression does not exist.

It sounds a bit like telling a DUer they should just understand that in the US elections aren't fair, and we should just accept the fact that our corporate masters want us to have a warmongering bigoted criminal for a president. See my point?

[bear425]

159. Beautifully said. Thank you. n/t

[motocicleta]

181. You're welcome

I apologize for bringing out the tired old "I'm a straight white guy, but ..." because this issue is near and dear to me because I am an American, not because of my race, gender, or orientation. Why it is not an issue for absolutely every other person who signed on to the land of the free, I don't know.

Never give up.

[bear425]

183. No apology necessary. You're leading by example.

With your help, one day we will attain equality.

[Joe for Clark]

213. That is not what I said -

Don't put words in my mouth - that I do not appreciate.

I am the first to say - that an injustice to anyone is an injustice to everyone.

But injustice does occur - doesn't it - and the more people concentrated in an area the greater the liklihood that it can occur. Doesn't make it right.

The point was simply that. That any injustice is not tolerable - and that to single one out as a greater injustice does a disservice to many others that don't speak out or are not heard.

They are equally wrong. And they should be treated as such.

Joe

[motocicleta]

214. To "single one out"?

You mean hate crimes against gay people?

[Joe for Clark]

215. That is right.

An average day in my city = 27 homicides - more than half race related.

I will give no more or less attention to the ethnicity involved - or sexual or other orientation.

They are all equally wrong.

I think it is wrong to pick one element over another - just wrong.

You say "hate crimes against gay people" - and I tell you emphatically ALL hate crimes are wrong against ALL people. And I will never pick sides as to who is more hated or more targeted.

It is not ok with me to pick sides in this - and never will be.

Joe

[dsc]

216. half of all homicides race related? I seriously doubt that

Every study I have seen of homicides suggest that the overwhelming majority are either between relatives (wives, husbands, etc.) or between people who otherwise have a previous relationship (either friends or business).

[Joe for Clark]

217. What studies did you see??

I have no idea what happens in the middle of no where america, but I know LA.

Tell me, how many exactly are sexual orientation related???

Not alot huh??

Joe

[dsc]

219. As a percent of all homicides, no not a lot are sexual orientation related

but given the paucity of gay people, they should be a small percent of all homicides. As it stands, as of 2003, there were only one group of individuals more likely to be victims of a violent hate crime than gay men and that was Muslims. The links to that are in this thread.

On edit Here is a link backing up what I am saying.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html

Race of victim Total Race of offender Sex of offender
White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown
White victims 3,727 3,123 522 37 45 3,309 373 45
Black victims 3,067 228 2,784 7 48 2,738 281 48
Other race victims 177 42 23 110 2 159 16 2
Unknown race 68 34 15 1 18 40 10 18
Sex of victim Total Race of offender Sex of offender
White Black Other Unknown Male Female Unknown
Male victims 5,050 2,253 2,613 110 74 4,488 488 74
Female victims 1,920 1,139 716 44 21 1,717 182 21
Unknown sex 69 35 15 1 18 41 10 18

NOTE: This table is based upon incidents where some information about the offender is known by
law enforcement. It excludes incidents reported with a value of "unknown offender."

[Joe for Clark]

220. 10 percent of any population are gay.

10% of ethno violence should be related.

Look, if ONE person is killed because he is gay we need to all collectively scream.

My point is only that the factors are equal - if a black youth, or jew or asian or whatever is killed because of who they are it is all EQUALLY wrong. And they need to be treated as EQUALLY wrong.

There is a right and a wrong in life - and wrong is always wrong - and we better all stand up for each other. That if we don't, who will stand up for us??

I agree with the sentiment. If I implied otherwise, I did not mean to.

Joe

[dsc]

221. actually it is more like 5 to 6 percent probably

Looking at the figures for later years it appears we are now about even with African Americans instead of worse off.

[Joe for Clark]

223. I think it is ten - not that it really matters, I suppose.

It is not a worse off thing - it is what it is.

[dsc]

225. actually it does matter

If only 6% of the population is gay and all people are hated equally, then 6% of hate crimes should be against gay people. The number is much higher than that. Evidently anti black crimes have caught up though as they are about as over represented.

[motocicleta]

224. Now I will put words in your mouth.

You are telling us, throughout this thread, that homophobic violence is no worse than any other violence. It is just as terrible, you say, but no worse. This in a thread by a person sick of being told that they are not experiencing homophobia. Why you feel the need to make your point in this thread is beyond me - I can only deduce that you think no one should complain about homophobic violence, that they should only complain about the violence part, not the homophobic part. I don't think that is a stretch to conclude from your meandering posts.

Well, from me to you, not to speak for my gay friends, but I'll speak from myself with them in mind: go to hell. Why don't you go start yourself a thread about how the gays shouldn't complain so much - everybody is a target of violence now and again - and get out of this one; it's simply unbelievably disrespectful of you to post that crap in this thread. And I'll stay out of your thread, because I think you already now how I feel, which is that you are a closeted bigot who'll find any excuse to rationalize his bigotry.

Normally I'm happy to continue arguing on DU, and it takes a special kind of irrationality, of muddied thought, to get on my shit list, but you are very special, so:
Consider yourself ignored.

[bear425]

52. What exactly are the risks regarding heterosexual culture.

Please expound on the subject and kindly provide links to support your argument. Unless, of course, you don't believe that heterosexuals are a unique culture.

edit: k/r for the op

further edit: I'll check for your response later, as I'm going to relax and try to lighten up.

[Joe for Clark]

57. Oh - mostly I think my links only work half fthe time -

I guess I am too old to get that right.

Please explain to me what exactly makes for a "unique culture".

Aren't all cultures unique??

You know when I was growing up I remember the graphic descriptions of Klansman burning crosses on my grandparents property - just cause they were catholic.

And I KNOW the descrpitions of mom listeneing to the poor kids coming back from POW camps in Europe -cause they were american and caught in the war.

And I know the family we had killed in concentration camps in the 30s-40-s cause of their ethnicity.

I don't need any links - I know. I am a puiblished authority on the matter - (and laughing inside aobut that)

SO you tell me why your group has it any worse - tell me.

Joe

[bear425]

73. You're not too old. Forget the links...

If you don't understand that having a culture has something
to do with with risk - I don't know what to say.

I am not gay, black or latino - but I can clearly see the risk associated with being any of those things, too.

You seem to think being gay has a singular risk - well it does not. It is just a risk.

Joe
Joe for Clark

I was responding to your post that stated that being gay has a singular risk. I certainly would never discount the discrimination that other oppressed groups have faced and continue to face.

Please explain to me what exactly makes for a "unique culture".

Aren't all cultures unique??

Well, of course, all cultures are unique. Although, I don't prefer the term culture to describe an ethnicity or a sexual orientation. However, that does not preclude the fact that some "cultures" are not equal under the law. You mention that you are not gay, black or latino and you can see risk by being among those "cultures", but you fail to recognize that there are laws protecting the latter two groups.


Again I ask, at the risk of redundancy, what societal risks do heterosexuals endure? Your examples, as terribly tragic and morally wrong as they are, do not punctuate how the people were at risk by simply being heterosexual.

If I'm barking up the wrong tree, I'm truly sorry. Please enlighten me. But, I happen to feel somewhat sensitive of late and feel the need to protect myself and my "culture". It seems to me that lately on DU some groups are worthy of civil rights, while others must wait at the back of the bus. What do you think?

[Joe for Clark]

78. I don't know that it is ever wrong to speak up

for yourself.

That said - the society risks, as you put it - from a heterosexual perspective - you know until this day that was the only perspective.

You say there are or were laws protecting the "later groups" - well you tell that to the civil rights worker that were killed.

There is a difference between the laws we suppose the the laws enforced.

And like I suggested, in some cases it took the better part of 142 years to get those enforced.

Don't tell me that somehow homosexuals have it somehow worse - that is BS.


Joe

[bear425]

82. I don't recall saying that homosexuals have it worse than

other oppressed and discriminated against groups. So, to say I did is, in your vernacular, BS.

As far as the only perspective available to humanity to this day being a heterosexual one, well, that's purely subjective, to say the least.

Please now, in addition to telling me how heterosexuals are at risk for their "culture" please tell me the laws that protect the gay "culture".

[Joe for Clark]

96. The BS vernacular -

I like that.

You know - if you don't have it any worse or better - then you would have it about the same -wouldn't you say??

Tell me what exacly is it about the 1865 civil rights act that would not apply please.

DO you really believe that "1865 ciovil rights act" protected those poor bastards that were killed in Compton lst week?? DO you??

You can bury your head in as much sand as you want - doesn't change the fact though - does it??

You are arguing that a cultural clash has something to do with the local reaction of a populace - isn't it?? Or a federal law - what is it really??

Doesn't work the way it should - does it.

Joe

[bear425]

107. Projection?

You can bury your head in as much sand as you want...

Seriously, I really have a hard time following your line of thinking. If you are referring to the 1964 Civil Rights Act, I never brought it up. You must have me confused with another poster. However, how does that protect anyone from acts of violence, even you? Acts of violence will continue until we, as progressives, change hearts and minds. It does not matter which group: gay, black, latino, asian, freeper, etc is victimized, discriminated against - we all suffer. Equal rights are not just for the majority they are for us all. And that, my friend, is all I have to say this evening on the subject.

Peace.

edit: elipses on your quote.

[Joe for Clark]

114. Bear -

1 - Peace to you too.

2 - everything we have today goes back to the 1865 civil rights acts. That singular moment in time when humans were equated as a fraction of worth - 3/5 ths as good as whites in the north I think.

This was the time the United states was really reborn.

Equal rights are a concept for the minority - not the majority- the majority doesn't need it.

But everyone still has to fight for the equality - in all fields.

It is the nature of our equality.

Best to you -

joe

[ToolTex]

204. This is really wrong. There are Homosexual Blacks, Browns, Yellows, Reds, and Whites.

All can get bashed for being homosexual, as well as for color. Color has no edge on being targeted and beaten. Being a minority, color, orientation, religion or none, even profession, is often enough to bring on risk of being harmed.

[Prophet 451]

134. risks regarding heterosexual culture:

1. Kids.
2. In-laws.
3. Expensive weddings.
4. Continually being described as "Mr. & Mrs. X" even if your other half has kept her own name.
5. Having to buy "family" cars.
6. Having to actually use the parental controls on your PC or PPV box.


(note, this whole post is an excercise in sarcasm).

[youthere]

147. I was wondering that myself...

I am a hetero female, and I don't believe that I've ever been threatened or harassed for holding my husband's (and prior to that, boyfriend's) hand or kissing him in public. I've never been fearful of being openly affectionate with the person I love.

[noamnety]

116. It's a risk that is COMPOUNDED with the other risks

not in place of them.

It makes no sense to compare hate crimes against gays to hate crimes against blacks. Homosexuality doesn't exist in a vacuum separate from blackness.

The comparison should be crimes against straight black men vs. crimes against gay black men ... or crimes against straight latinos vs. gay latinos, or straight vs. gay whites.

[LostinVA]

178. WTF do you mean by "culture"?

[cui bono]

118. I live in L.A. and it most certainly does happen here.

Just because there are areas where it is easier to be openly affectionate doesn't mean it's accepted by all and that there's no anti-gay violence.

[Bluzmann57]

10. Ok, this may sound a bit cliched, but homophobia seems to

have taken the place of racism as an "acceptable" type of hatred. Personally, I don't give a damn because I have enough stuff to worry about without having to be worried about who is or isn't gay. But there are an awful lot of people who seem to be homophobic. Last year, a couple of guys from work and I went into a well known local gay bar and had a damn good time. We are all straight btw, but one of our group knows the owner, so there was free alcohol. I have been in dives which are so called straight bars that aren't as nice as this place, both interior and people wise. So I reiterate, who cares about a person's sexual orientation? As long as you aren't trying to hit on my girl, I don't.

[Debi]

164. Mary's??? n/t

[Bluzmann57]

208. No.

It is across the street from Mary's. But interesting thing about the aforementioned Mary's. The guy who owns the place ran for alderman two years ago and just barely lost. There was a huge banner outside the establishment promoting him.

[Debi]

211. Was only there once and thought it was a cool place

They had a chili cook off and auction - we had a blast.

[davsand]

11. Why AREN'T you posting in anger or the heat of the moment?

I sure as hell wouldn't blame anyone who is. I'm angry, but then I've BEEN angry for a whole lot of years. We are talking about basic human rights stuff here, and dismissing it with a "get over it" sort of attitude is not too far away from telling victims of genocide to "get over it."

I DARE anyone to make a joke commercial about the Holocaust and then blow off the resulting outrage with something along the lines of "You people have no sense of humor." Good luck with that, I'll be sure to send a nice potted plant to your funeral.

I honestly don't see much difference here.

No, I am NOT going to "get over it," and I'm not gonna give up until we actually live in a nation that lives up to the promise of freedom and equality for all. I think it is worth it to stay pissed just so maybe we CAN get to the point where crap like who you love and how you love simply isn't any more inflammatory than having blond hair or brown eyes.

Yep, I'm still pissed and too many of my gay friends are still dead.

Regards!



Laura

[ulysses]

13. !

Agreed and agreed. Good to see you around, Laura.

[davsand]

16. Uly!!! Great to see you!

Haven't seen you in a very long time and it feels good to run into you!

As you can see, not many of my attitudes have changed since that first thread we were in (oh so many years ago!) talking about WHY we are both Liberal and Democrats.

You guys doing ok? I bet the baby is getting into all kinds of stuff these days!


Laura

[ulysses]

17. I do see that.

:D Same here. Think about, six years this summer since we both hit DU. Scary.

The family's great. As we speak, Chris is making up some manner of game with an empty bottle and a collander. kevsand and everyone doing well your way?

[Joe for Clark]

21. It is just not that simple anymore Laura.

Do you remember when Hogan's Hero's came out.

I remember well - there was a hell of a controversy over the show. It fizzled out - and it was a good TV show. It depicted allied POWs in a humorous context - you know?? Very scaring to the living POWs we had at the time.

SO you say - I'm not gonna give up until we actually live in a nation that lives up to the promise of freedom and equality for all.

Laura - the stakes really are not the same. We got over a much more serious hump in the 1960s -

I think some people really bought the BS the christian right was selling - at least on the edges - as being representative of christians -

If you really believe that - I got some swap land for sale in Florida that would make for a great development.

Joe

[davsand]

50. Joe, it is ALL about that promise contained in the Declaration of Independence.

For me, it is all summed up quite well in the Declaration of Independence:

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

That was a promise that we all could one day live freely, as ourselves, as we choose to. A lot of people bought into that promise then and a lot of people still do. Soldiers have died and bled for that promise and wives, mothers and children have mourned their losses in defense of the ideals expressed there and in our Constitution.

I am dammed if I'm gonna waiver from it at this point in our history.

I'm a bit confused when you say the stakes in this are not the same.

Seems to me that when "fag bashing" is a sport enjoyed by the rednecks and the stupid maybe the stakes ARE pretty damn high. (Lovely term isn't it? That is what they called it when they stomped one of my friends to the point of death so many years ago. They fractured his skull and he died from traumatic brain injury.)

Seems to me that the stakes were awful damn high when Ronnie Raygun sat on his ass refusing to even talk about AIDS while men I loved died. Those Pink Triangles were revived then for a reason. Silence really did equal death.

Seems to me that the stakes are too damn high when men and women endure years of silence, denial, and fear when it comes to who they are.

I can't say that I see a whole lot of difference with this and some of the other human rights violations over the years. Seems like the stakes really ARE that high.

It isn't simple. I'll grant you that, Joe. I honestly don't think we ARE gonna solve it all in my lifetime. I DO think, however, that we can begin to make substantive changes when we at least take the government out of people's personal lives when it comes to marriage and other government things like benefits for survivors. (Equal treatment for ALL our citizens...)

Sorry, Joe, I don't mean to yell at you, but I'm still pissed off, and the outlook for me to "get over it" is not too good right now.

Regards,



Laura

[Joe for Clark]

58. Laura - don't misunderstand me -

You yell -at the top of your lungs - it is your right!!

Maybe your duty.

All I am saying is a lot of people have been in similar positions and they had to figure their way out of it.

Don't ever apologize for being pissed off - certainly not to me - cause I agree with you. Just cut the "Poor me" stuff.

Joe

[dsc]

28. I guess it is a little dishonest to say I am not angry

but I meant to say that I really mean what I am saying and am not just reacting. I mean I thought about what I wrote.

[Solly Mack]

12. Thank you.

[redqueen]

14. Excellent.

Thank you so much for sharing this.

I hope it opens some people's eyes.

[NMDemDist2]

15. well duh! who the hell has been telling you that shit??

alert the post, the mods don't put up with that shit if they see it

:hug:

PS excuse my profanity, but if you really are hearing that here, the mods need to know

[Bjorn Against]

20. Look at any thread dealing with the Snickers commercial

There were several people here defending that ad, most of the ads defenders did not directly say anything that was homophobic but they did defend some pretty sick material. None of them said they supported violence against gays, they just told us to "lighten up". As the OP pointed out, this is a very serious issue that we should "lighten up" and laugh about.

So while most of the posts yesterday were not something that directly violated DU rules, they were very insensitive to the GLBT community whether that insensitivity was intentional or not.

[NMDemDist2]

25. one of DUs cardinal rules is we support equal rights for ALL people

i'm amazed there is any controversy at all over those awful commercials

if you see another post like that alert it right away please

the mods can't read every single post every day 24/7 and need us to be their eyes and ears

[Debi]

19. After a Gay/Straight Alliance meeting at my son's high school

one of the girls kissed her girlfriend good-bye. I was taken aback. I'm straight/38/the mom of an 18 year old with physical and mental disabilities. I told him to join GSA to continue to learn about diversity/adversity. Neat group of kids and presenters. I just don't recall seeing "gay in action" (for lack of a better term) in high school students. I'm still learning to accept. But I have to learn to accept. It's a given in society to see teenage boys kiss teenage girls why not teenage girls kiss each other?

[jberryhill]

37. Color me stupid

...but when did heterosexual kissing in public become okay.

I'm not some sort of prude, but I was taught it was bad manners.

I expect the same standards of polite behavior from my lesbian teenage daughter and my straight teenage sons. No smooching in public places. Period.

[John Q. Citizen]

45. People kiss in pubic all the time. From a quick peck on the lips to

long lingering passion.

Ever been to a wedding?

Those are usually held in public.

[Lerkfish]

49. LOL...freudian slip? "kiss in pubic"

sorry, couldn't resist

[John Q. Citizen]

72. Kinda changes the whole meaning,,,,,oops!

[donco6]

61. I see heterosexual kissing every day.

I travel quite a bit, and I've yet to see a straight couple leave one or the other at the gate without a kiss. But when I welcome my partner back from a trip, even a short peck hello feels risky to me (there's people all over, honey!). Now what straight couple ever even THINKS about such a thing?

[mondo joe]

122. I used to feel that way too. Somewhere along the way - maybe it was getting older -

I just stopped caring. We kiss goodbye just about any old time now. :-)

[donco6]

142. Oh don't get me wrong, we do kiss - but . . .

I still get a little twinge of perhaps paranoia in the back of my mind that straight people probably cannot even comprehend. And why should that be? Why should I have to even think for a SECOND about whether it's "OK" to show my partner a simple affection in public? No one else has to worry about it. It goes to the heart of the whole matter with the Snickers ad and the poking fun at men kissing and homophobia et al.

[jberryhill]

187. I'm not questioning that it happens

I was just brought up to believe that certain public displays of affection were inappropriate, independent of the orientation of the parties involved.

Now, some have brought up the meeting/parting thing at airports, where all sorts of people hug and kiss; and of course weddings where the event itself is about the couple.

I'm talking about extended public lip locking, which at least used to be considered bad manners.

Of course, the first rule of manners is not commenting on the manners of others, but I do tell my children it is inappropriate.

[mondo joe]

119. I kiss my partner goodbye every weekday in downtown Seattle.

We drive together to his office, park the car, kiss goodbye and I walk to my office.

Feels polite enough to me. We're not exactly tonguing each other.

[Debi]

162. They weren't making out just a quick kiss good-bye after the meeting

After ten years of marriage I still kiss my husband when he leaves our office or goes off for an appointment, I hope to never end that practice :loveya:

[Hissyspit]

22. I have been trying REALLY REALLY hard to "lighten up," to figure out how the adS, the whole campaign

are somehow just harmless humor. How a multi-billion dollar corporation is just looking for us all to laugh at the homophobes. And, speaking as a heterosexual male, I can't get there.

The fact that ALL OF US here at DU are having differences of opinion as to the significance and meaning of this ad campaign only goes to highlight the fact that plenty of Americans and others will see this ad campaign and read it thus: Men Kissing Is Gross and Stupid and We Should All Laugh At It.

And remember, this is all to SELL CANDY BARS. Clumsy vague exploitation of a critical social issue TO SELL CANDY BARS. Within this context - and the context counts - the ambiguity of the intention of the commercials is part of the problem. Within a purely expressive artwork, this would be less of an issue, but within a work of culture whose primary function is to sell freaking candy bars, the motivations for the use of this kind of humor is problematic at the very least, and I find it strange that many DUers don't recognize that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. lighten up. whats a little gay bashing these days?

take it like a man!!

:sarcasm:

[sniffa]

24. quite frankLy, this needs to repeated often

thank you for this thread - it's a proper counter to the garbage we've been seeing defended, and it seems to be a smaLL voice in the numerous threads on this subject. pLease, don't ever stop speaking out. :hug:

[alfredo]

26. I don't have broadband so I didn't want to sit most of the evening

waiting to watch some commercials. The one I saw on TV I thought it was making fun of homophobes. They are terrified that they might be seen as less than a whole man. They have to keep up appearances. They have to "act like men" because they have no real idea what it is to be a man. Because they don't know, they live in doubt of their own manliness. The macho man is a cartoon character, he isn't being real.

Being a man has nothing to do with orientation, same with being a woman. You are who/what you are. You don't need to act, just be. Gay, straight, or in between, you are no more or less a man or woman.

[Guaranteed]

29. Thanks for this. Good post, that thoughtful people will understand.

Thanks for helping people to relate.

[Rex]

30. I'm straight and thought those ads were a complete attack on gays!

How can anyone here not see it?

Ripping chest hair is a preventative to becoming gay after and accidental kiss? That's funny? I think not.

[youthere]

149. I'm straight...

and the one commercial I watched I thought was just kind of stupid and I couldn't understand what all the kerfluffle was about. Then I looked at the entire campaign and it really opened my eyes. It jsut screamed "Gay is bad!" Horrible.

[Duncan Grant]

31. Great post, dsc.

Maybe people will discovery a little empathy after reading your post. :thumbsup:

[Stinky The Clown]

32. A kick for a friend with a righteous message

[tavalon]

34. I live in Seattle and so get to see men holding hands, hugging and even kissing

Am I weird that seeing those things gives me warm fuzzies? Heck, when I go to Melissa Etheridge or Indigo Girl's concerts, the same behavior between women has the same effect on me. I guess it's just joy that such things can happen without the people in question needing to be careful. I'm so lucky to live in a place where such things do not incite violence. I wish I lived in a country where such things wouldn't even be noticeable, at least no more noticeable than Het folk sharing PDA.

I haven't seen the ad. I don't choose to watch TV or its brainwashing ads but if gay folks here say it's a homophobic ad, then it is. I won't be eating Snicker's bars for the foreseeable future and I hope I hear that they have recanted.

[gravity]

35. I don't see the big deal

The ad makes fun of homophobes not the homosexuals. The point of the ad was to show their idiocy the guys will go through to be "manly." Thats why their actions were so exagerated. They weren't being manly at all, but just being idiots, which made it funny. It wasn't like those guys were behaving as positive role models, even to the average American.

I think you guys are just over analyzing the ad.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. yeah thats what we are doing

i think you guys need to not be so fucking condescending. also go watch the whole ad campaign before you label us guys oversensitive.

[Bluebear]

55. You don't see the big deal? Then you're insensitive & underinformed.

"Roll" model. :eyes:

[gravity]

59. No I don't

Really, people are stretching this commerical far to equate it to promoting violence and bigotry. It is like no one gets the joke.

[Bluebear]

60. The largest gay human rights organization, GLAAD & Judy Shepard disagree. nt

[blonndee]

62. Someone doesn't get something, that's for sure.

:eyes:

[donco6]

64. Doesn't that tell you something?

Duh. If no one gets the joke - IT'S PROBABLY BECAUSE IT ISN'T FUNNY.

[gravity]

86. A lot of people thought it was funny

Everyone I knew thought it was funny until I visited this forum. I think everyones overaction makes them look bad.

I doubt Snickers intentions were to promote violence against gays. They were making fun of something thats PC, homophobes. If they were making fun of homosexuals, it would be totally diferent.

[donco6]

92. Well, that tells me a lot about your usual crowd.

In fact, it tells me all I ever need to know.

[JackBeck]

115. "They were making fun of something that was PC, homophobes."

So, are you saying it's now politically correct to make fun of homophobes?

Could you clarify there, newbie?

And if you doubt the intentions were not to promote violence against gays, then why were some of the alternative choices for the ending of the commercial 1) drinking washer fluid and engine oil, which would lead to death, and 2) beating the crap out of each other?

[gravity]

124. Its like making fun of a racist

And the commerical ended they way they did because it was funny and over the top. They were acting irrationally doing over the top testosterone driven "manly" things to themselves. It wasn't even implying that they were doing something that leads to death.

[JackBeck]

129. Haven't you seen or read anything about this whole advertising campaign?

There were three alternative endings that one could choose on the internet, the next of which was going to be shown at the Daytona 500. Two of the endings included either the imbibing of car fluids (which in the real world would result in death) and another that involved the two characters beating the crap out of each other (which Matt Shepard's mom had a BIG problem with).

I'll hesitantly give you a pass on this one while you figure out how we like to understand the whole issue around here. In the meantime, do some research, as well, about the rampant homophobia in professional sports. For me, I don't want to dismiss it, just be a part of the change.

[gravity]

132. I have seen the whole campaign

Again the commercial doesn't promote violence. The guys that were drinking care fluids and hitting each other were trying to act out being macho. It is humor like the TV show jackass, guys doing stupid stuff to intentionally get hurt.

[JackBeck]

198. Drinking oil leads to death.

It sends the message that they would rather be dead instead of perceived being gay.

I'd check with Judy Shepard to see how she feels about the violence being portrayed.

How'd you like the football players' reactions?

[donco6]

63. They were "especially" NOT being manly when kissing - right?

I mean, what kind of men would KISS one another? That's just icky! :sarcasm:

Oh, no, that's not offensive at all.

[JackBeck]

65. I've been thinking about what it would have been like if they kissed

and DIDN'T make a big deal about it.

Like, if they looked at each other and felt that the kiss was more than worth it, since they both got to enjoy the Snickers.

Would have been interesting to see if they just shrugged it off, instead being such drama queens.

[donco6]

66. Now THAT would have made me buy a GD candy bar!

What a great progressive approach. Love it.

[JackBeck]

76. You can thank the hubby.

He tends to be my sanity in times of duress.

[blonndee]

68. That would have been good!

After their intial surprise, one of them could have said, "Damn good candy bar" and they could have gone back about their business.

[JackBeck]

77. And none of the drama, right?

Blonndee, I've been really enjoying your posts the past few days. I hope we get to know each other better around these parts.

:pals:

[blonndee]

81. Aw, thanks!

I hope so too! :pals:

[bear425]

75. I'd be buying M & M /Mars stock right now if that were the case. n/t

[JackBeck]

83. It would be nice to see the day that we are appreciated and not mocked.

One day, big bidness will catch on.

[bear425]

109. Thank you, JackBeck. Perhaps, one day... n/t

[Pacifist Patriot]

145. Damn straight!

Pardon the pun. ;)

[youthere]

150. I thought about the same thing...

The commercial would have been terrific if they would have cut just when their mouths met and their eyes popped open.

[Roland99]

191. Couldn't agree more. It's like people are looking to find a problem.

[Jacobin]

36. The RW, particularly Rush and Bush have made gay baiting

and gay bashing part of the public agenda. Its been made 'safe' to hate people who are different.

I am not that way and my children are not that way. The gay bashing thing reminds me of the south in the 1950's when it was 'normal' to be openly hostile to blacks.

It is sick behavior.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. I can see how that ad and website made you upset

If you've ever watched something on TV that relates directly to YOU, it hits a raw nerve. This happened to me watching a TV show about a disabled child being raped and the rapists getting away with it because she had consented. The friends who watched the show said, "Hey, it was just drama, nothing to get upset about." I had a relative who was disabled who had this very thing happen to her--including the shrug off of the rape itself. It shook me to the very core to watch the program, hoping that something more positive would result than happened in real life--only to find it was a repeat of what did, indeed happen.

So I do understand. The sneers and negative comments about the ads have to echo some slurs you have heard, brought up old fears or memories of gay bashing, etc. Know that the ad is off the site now, and that this person, at least, doesn't plan to get any Mars products again.

[dsc]

43. Just one more thing

Past edit time so decided to add a reply. This is a thread I posted in June of 2005 having to do with hate crimes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3988524

In 2003 gay males were 1451.52 times as likely to be victims of simple
assult in a hate crime than Christians. Three times as many gay males died as the result of hate crimes than there were Protestants either assulted (2), killed (0), or raped (0). (actual numbers were 288 simple assults of gay males versus three of Christians).

The figures for Jews are also pretty bad. Jews, who make up only 1.3% of the population were assulted 47 times in 2003, vs 6 for Christians as a whole and 2 for Protestants. That made them 455.54 times as likely to be assulted as Christians as a whole, and 814 2/3 times as likely to be assulted as Protestants.

The figures for Muslims are worse. 33 anti Islamic assults for 0.5% of the population which translates to 831.6 and a whopping 1716 times as likely than Christians and Protestants respectively.

Sources:

http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demographics/map_d...

for religious demographics as of 2001

http://www.ncjrs.org/hate_crimes/facts.html

go to Hate Crime Statistics. 2003 (link in text) for hate crimes in 2003.

I used the standard 10% lesbian and gay figure and assumed that males and females were equally likely to be homosexual. (note that likely inflated the number of gay males which makes my number low, not high)

My point in posting this, aside from playing with statistics and keeping my mind sharp for next fall, is to point out the utter absurdity in this idiotic notion that Christians are somehow being targetted.

We have had 43 consecutive Christian Presidents vs 0 lesbian or gay ones, 0 black ones, 0 Jewish ones, 0 Muslim ones, and 0 Hispanic ones. The current Senate has 9 Jews and 91 Christians vs 1 black, 2 Hispanics, 14 women, 0 gays or lesbians, 0 Muslims.

Give me a break.

[Lerkfish]

44. I know exactly what you mean...

see this post of mine and the following replies...its like swimming upstream...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=140257&mesg_id=140381

[Nikki Stone1]

46. Dsc, I think you're absolutely right on this

I waited until I saw the ad on the net (I don't watch the Superbowl). I do think it absolutely supports homophobia. I think your opinion is right on the mark here.

[smoogatz]

48. Well said. K/R

[swimboy]

54. Excellent post. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

:applause:

[sundog]

56. thanks for your post dsc

[cboy4]

67. Hard to imagine anyone not understanding what you just said...

It's really hard to imagine indeed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

144. I don't understand it, I'm afraid, although possibly not in the sense that you mean.

For the benefit of a poor benighted Limey, could someone summarise the advertisment that this thread is objecting to, please? This is the first I've heard about it.

[libnnc]

69. What you said, only louder and with a *FUCK!!* here and there

Just when I think we have crossed some bridge or passed some meaningful milestone in our struggle for acceptance, I'm slapped in the face with reality. The sting of it, though isn't out there in the real world, the sting is here on DU. I expect to be treated like shit on a shingle outside my front door. I don't expect it here among long-time posters who claim to espouse democratic principles.

Maybe someday things will change here.

[wickedcity]

79. Concerning the poll

"A current poll in the LGBT forum suggests that close to a third of all gays have been attacked"

Those with emotional investment in the subject of the poll are more likely to respond. I would very strongly doubt that anywhere close to a third of gays have been assaulted.

[Bluebear]

84. Oh, are you concerned & troubled that the number is too high?

Or too low?

[JackBeck]

85. Here's something to chew on.

In the real world, many GLBT people fail to report violence against them, whether it's from a partner or a stranger on the street, because they more fear the embarrassment from the police, than the actual assault itself.

[ThomCat]

88. That poll doesn't record

all of us who have been repeatedly threatened with violence. Does that steam up your rose collored glasses at all?

[Bluebear]

89. "i would very strongly doubt it."

[ThomCat]

91. Hiya Bluebear.

:hug:

It's sad, but you're may have quoted that correctly. It seems a whole lot of people around here are belitting and dismissing anything that happens to GLBT people.

We're just being "sensitive."
x(

[wickedcity]

95. So...

...because I recognize that the method of poling used is inherently biased and prone to error, I hate gay people?

You want people to take the Gay rights movement seriously? Try using logic and reason instead of just attacking your opponents. I wonder if Martyr Complex by proxy is a recognized condition?

[ThomCat]

97. It sounded a hell of a lot like you were saying

"You gays don't really have it that bad. You're exagerating." And we've certainly heard enough of that.

So if you think the poll is wrong, you do think it overestimates or underestimates the violence? And why, exactly, do you feel the need to critique this particular poll if you don't have an opinion on the matter?

[wickedcity]

100. When did I say...

...that gays don;t have it bad? I said that the particular style of poll that he was using as evidence is faulty because those with greater emotional investment in the issue are more likely to respond. It's like taking a poll of people in a parking garage and concluding that public transportation has no support.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[donco6]

93. From your Faux news datafile, no doubt.

Now THERE'S reliability.

[wickedcity]

99. You realize...

...that you're guilty of the same shoddy reporting Fox engages in, right?
Can you honestly not distinguish between pointing out the flaws in an individuals logic, and attacking a movement as a whole?

[JackBeck]

130. I realize that you've responded to everyone's comment but mine.

I wonder why.

[donco6]

143. Wow - another Fauxism!

"Your position is just as bad".

Is that you, Neil Cavuto?

[Dastard Stepchild]

111. Attack is a broad term...

Among my social and acquaintance circles, few of us have experienced physical confrontations on the basis of sexual orientation. Thankfully, only few of us have, (three to be exact). And I say thankfully with a hearty dose of frustration.

However, a larger number of us have been verbally harassed in humiliating, embarrassing ways... myself included.

I consider a verbal attack to be an attack, and in this case, I do believe the numbers of BGLT people experiencing an attack (under this definition) can be higher than expected.

edited for spelling

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. really? what do you think the percentage is knowledgeable one"?

[dsc]

192. I used the word suggest for a reason

Your point is well taken. I don't pretend this proves but it does suggest.

[AspenRose]

87. I am really glad that I was sick and missed the Super Bowl and

all of the commercials.

I just hate seeing yet ANOTHER instance of a group of folks on DU being dissed and accused of being delusional or hyper-sensitive for something that was obviously offensive to many, many people.

*shaking head* What is going on here?

[rzr77]

90. strongly agree. also, "homophobia" is really "gay male phobia"

As a straight man I witness homophobia all the time, increasingly from women. Another thing, homophobia should really be called "gay male phobia" because most of it is against gay men, not lesbians/faux lesbians, who are thought to be sexy and trendy.

Those who supposedly support civil rights, who accept hatred couched as humor against a severely persecuted minority like gays - are hypocrites and enablers who are no less guilty than the haters themselves.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

117. There is plenty of homophobia against lesbians. Too bad you don't recognize it.

If you're butch or unattractive, you'll get attacked for being a fat dyke and if you're cute, you get men who insist all you need is a "real man."

My GF was once fired for being gay, I know a woman who needed plastic surgery after being beaten for being a dyke, so don't think that it's just "gay male phobia."

[bluedawg12]

128. Only Hollwoodized lesbians are accepted

Yes, the on-going joke about straight men wanting to see two women "get it on," is really nothing more than a projection of the male fantasy of seeing two gorgeous-model type straight women getting it on in preparation for the entrance of the straight male into the threesome.

But real life is made up of a majority of average looking men and women, some of us a little dumpy, frumpy, middle aged, geeky, with out chic, in another words the people I see in the grocery store, the mall, or at work.

Now, take two average people, gay or straight, having sex and suddenly it takes on a less humorous, less enticing tone, and I betcha that the anti-gay anti-lesbian hate talk comes out.

I have heard people describe Eleanor Roosevelt as a big dyke, I have heard jokes about Hilary, and none of them involve a menage a trois. When people are confronted by real life gays- not models or straight Hollywood actors playing gay parts, the real hatred does come out- against gay men and gay women. That mentality has very real implications about jobs, promotions, economic success, choice of location for for a home, hate speech and slurs becomes apparent, and yes, violence can occur.

[Ariana Celeste]

218. Lesbians/bisexual women deal with it too, trust me

The kind of acceptance I've got from most men wasn't really acceptance at all. No I got comments from old b/f's like "You can have sex with women too, if I get to watch." And comments from guys asking if they could watch/join sometime. When I kissed or hugged my ex g/f, I got lewd stares.
But mostly, I got ridiculed. My ex g/f and I aren't made up skinny porn stars. We are regular women. When I got "caught" kissing a different chick at another school, I got ridiculed. I was "that dyke bitch" from then on. I haven't been with a woman since, but I am very open about my bisexuality. I have friends who truly do accept it, as well as the gay community. But most people I know are shocked or grossed out.
In Hollywood and in porn flicks men have a hard on for lesbians- on tv, lesbians are either hot as hell, or they are stereotypically butch and the butt of a joke. In the real world if we aren't hot and ready to fuck in front of every guy who is interested, we are hated just as much as gay men.

[mmonk]

94. You're correct.

And I'm straight. You aren't deluded.

[Mabus]

98. Well said and I agree

I grew up near Will Roger's Park in OKC. I can't tell you how many late evenings were disrupted by screams and yells for help. I can't tell you how many men showed up on our doorstep beaten and every single one of them was afraid to make a police report. Why? Because there was a stigma attached to being gay. Some of them were so afraid that we would call the police that they tried to give my dad money. Why should anyone have to hide who they are and who they love? I know, these men were cruising but they were men. They had so much to risk if people knew their real sexuality. And, to me, that's just so stupid it is beyond comprehension. What does a person's sexuality have to do with how hard they work, how smart they are or anything that should jeoparize their livelihood or their happiness?

I understand what you're saying about expressing intimacy. I've heard so many of my friends say "no PDA" when their lover leans into them. It breaks my heart. I cannot imagine being afraid to express the slighest hint of affection to my husband in public.

I want you to know that I was distressed by those commericals and the ad campaign. BTW, who did the ad campaign? What company came up with the idea?

I'm with you buddy. I'm with you all the way. I want you to know that I think you are first and foremost human being. You deserve the same freedoms that I, as a bi-racial married woman, have and I will do everything I can in my life to make sure that you get them too.

Sorry to have rambled. The comments I've seen over the past few days range from disbelief that anyone could be offended to outright mocking. It really hurts. I just wanted to let you know not all of us are assholes.

:hug:

on edit: my mom was a dark-skinned American Indian woman and my dad is blond haired and blue eyed. When they were dating in Georgia in the early 50's they always had a hard time finding a cafe that would serve them. My mom was too dark to be in the "White-Only" establishments. My mom said my dad would buy coffee and they would go sit on the curb and drink it. My sister asked her one time why they didn't go hang out in a park and my mom said they were afraid of being dragged into the bushes and get beaten. At least bi-racial couples are accepted these days. I hope your day comes soon.

[mzmolly]

102. I'm so sorry we live in such a bigoted world dsc.

:hug:

On a lighter note, I'm also a bit broken up over the Bass/Reichen bust up. ;)

[aaronbees]

103. As a straight white man...

it's pretty damn obvious to me the whole thing is homophobic, though the ad in and of itself seems to want to play it both ways -- that is, invite us to laugh at these "lovable loser" mechanics and their silly attempt to prove manhood and then simultaneously invite us to laugh at or feel disgusted at the site of two men kissing. The context of the whole ad campaign itself with football players giving their grossed out reactions makes the real intent deadly clear -- to bash gay men. Seriously, I can see rationally different ways of viewing the ad played Super Bowl night (and if you disagree with my interpretation, fine, and I won't quibble over it), but not the larger campaign concocted by the Snickers ad idiots. I don't see any other logical interpretation for the latter. And it's certainly should not up to me to say in which ways people can or cannot be offended. Considering people in the GLBT community already have rights denied them that I and many others enjoy (such as safely kissing in public, marriage, etc.), to belittle the fact that many are offended by the ads just strikes me as an extra slap in the face.

So in other words, great post, DSC.

[Bluebear]

106. Great post yourself!

:thumbsup:

[aaronbees]

126. Thank you...

and keep fightin' the good fight. It may not seem like it sometimes, but I think we're getting there. :)

[Vidar]

105. Well said.

[treestar]

108. A couple of gay people on DU today have said they thought it was funny

Quit trying to speak for all the gay people. Are they not as varied in opinion and sensibility as any other set of people? And I notice you only call out the straight people who have said they don't find it offensive.

You can't control what other people think. Straight people don't think about gay people all day long every day. I may sympathize and think there should be gay marriage but it's not my whole life and I'm not going to get a damn commercial affect me more than in passing.

[Bluebear]

110. I will stick with Mrs. Shepard, the Human Rights Campaign & GLAAD

Not the "couple of gay people" who said it was funny today. Or you.

"Not saying you intended any ill, just warning you about how vicious some people can be about hanging onto their "right" to be offended about anything and everything. This is bound to be added to their list of wrongs done them. Somehow they want that list as long as humanly possible." - treestar

It really made an impression on me when you said that yesterday.

[racaulk]

180. She really has shown her true colors over the last few days, hasn't she?

Remember that advice you gave me about the ignore option, Bluebear? Well, I decided to take that advice, and treestar was first on the list. I have absolutely no interest in someone telling me, a 31-year-old gay man, that I'm too delusional or stupid to recognize homophobia when I see it.

An impression was made indeed.

[Pacifist Patriot]

146. We must not have read the same OP.

I don't see any place where he claims to speak for all gay people. Please point me to the particular quote. Thanks!

[Dora]

151. Remember blackface? That was funny once.

Now, though, NOT SO MUCH.

[dsc]

210. I take it you missed the word mostly

That was to take account of the gays who didn't mind the ad.

[jgraz]

113. I'm straight and not particularly sensitive, but that ad made me want to puke

The website made me want to kill someone. The sad fact is that the website probably WILL make some redneck want to kill someone.

Anything for money, I guess. Well, M&M Mars won't be getting any more of mine. Fuck them.

[Kixel]

121. Thank you

I just want to thank you for this thread on bigotry and being gay. As a straight chick, sometimes I forget. When I know I love my friends that are gay and that I don't judge them...well, sometimes you forget that the fight is about more than equal rights.

Posts like yours give me an important perspective-and they help me remember why I am a progressive.

[racaulk]

125. Fucking A!!!

You hit the nail on the head, dsc! Great post!

:applause:

[nofurylike]

127. very well said. thank you, dsc. eom

[Skittles]

131. I'm sorry it's that way, dsc

it irritates the living hell out of me; when I stop to wonder what it must be like to actually BE gay - well, I just don't know how you all persevere

[Raine]

135. I'm sorry that you

and so many have such a tough time of it. I'm a straight white female but just like the stuff Biden said last week and this ad I don't understand how so many can be in such denial. I admit it's a hard thing to realize that there is so much of this kind of hateful thinking still existing in this the 21st century but denying keeps it that way.

[blondie58]

136. thank you

thank you for this viewpoint, dsc

I thought that the ad was funny and didn't see how it could possibly be offensive, but you've enlightened me.

Sadly, our culture is 'homophobic', and what you've described are the results of it. I am so sorry that you have to deal with so many the ignorant people.

In actuality, we are really all the same, deep down. It shouldn't matter who you choose to love.

[donheld]

139. Dude, please don't lighten up

Come to my neighborhood, you can hold hands with the same gender if you want to. Keep on fighting we're on the correct side.

[terrya]

140. This is a great post, dsc.

Powerfully said. I agree with every word you said.

I'm proud to recommend this post.

Thank you again for saying what needs to be said.

[Le Taz Hot]

141. Great piece

and thanks so much for taking time to write it. As I was reading, I was reminded that the reluctance of gay couples to show public affection is so ingrained it extends even to safe environments. I've witnessed this in my own home wherein the only outward affection I've ever seen from a gay couple is hand holding.

[Irishonly]

152. I Am Glad I Didn't See It

Obviously, I can't comment on all of the content but from reading what everyone has to say it makes me wonder what is happening to people in this country. Tearing chest hair out is gross. Showing men resort to violence because of an inadvertent kiss is stupid. When have people lost empathy? I am naive, I guess, but I find it appalling that someone in either Mars Corp. or the ad agency not to realize that many people would find the ad offensive. What some people find no big deal in the ad, others can find it extremely hurtful and offensive. I understand you can't live your whole life worrying about every little thing you say but common sense has seemed to disappear.

I did write to GM about the suicide ad and received an eye rolling response. I figure my letter has been deleted but I got the thank you very much and we will forward your concern to the appropriate department. At least, people writing got this ad pulled. There's hope for activism yet.

[yardwork]

153. I live in a supposedly very gay friendly town and people yell at me

Young men in cars scream things like "fucking dykes" at my partner and me when we go out walking, in broad daylight. I am very "feminine" looking. My partner dresses in an androgynous way, but there is nothing overtly "odd" about either of our appearances (not that that would excuse the behavior in any case). We don't kiss or hold hands in public. We would like to, but it isn't safe.

[slackmaster]

154. We're destroying the planet with global warming

And THIS is what you think about?

[Tyo]

156. Sorry I guess we just lost our heads here

I mean I for one forgot that we can only address one issue at a time and that there will be no discussion of anything else at all until we get the global warming thing sorted out.

Someone needs to remind the administrators of this so that they can get rid of all the extraneous non-global-warming crap that's cluttering up DU at the moment

[La Lioness Priyanka]

157. my head can hold upto 15 political issues, 200 personal issues, 3500 business related issues

sorry yours cant.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

158. Oh, I'm sorry. Silly us, thinking about bigotry.

BTW, most adults are capable of processing thoughts on several topics. I know I am. I'm sorry you are incapable of this.

So do you just think it's worthless to think about homophobia or do you extend that to racism and sexism, too?

[slackmaster]

165. It won't matter when the whole planet is dead

Think about it.

[ThomCat]

168. And if the whole world is saved

but prejudice makes sure that only certain people survive to enjoy it, that's good for us how?

You may be a privilaged white boy who doesn't need to care about civil rights, but some of us are affected, and we're smart enough to have two thoughts at the same time. Stay out of our way.

Think about it. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

170. Sorry, bigotry against us must be excused until global warming is solved.

That is all.

[Tyo]

172. That's right

Stop paying your mortgage and tell the bank not to sweat it because it won't matter when the whole planet is dead. Or use that to comfort some parents who have just lost their kid in Iraq. Or the next time a gay kid is beateen up at school just tell her that it won't matter when the whole planet is dead. Hell, why even bother to cook dinner tonight? It won't matter when the whole planet is dead.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

174. Once again, YOU may only be capable of handling one issue. Fortunately, MOST of us are more capable

I can handle bigotry and global warming just fine. It's unfortunate that you can't.

[Bluebear]

160. Damn us uppity gays.

And to top it off, we NEVER think about global warming either.

[Tyo]

163. Uppity? It's the heels darling

And global what?? Are we talking about those balls with all the little mirrors on them? It never occurred to me that they were warm.

[ThomCat]

161. You've just announced

that you aren't to be taken seriously. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

166. Did I ever ask to be?

Think about that.

[ThomCat]

167. I think about many things.

You will be very low on that list.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

179. also its the same people who deny us our rights, who are causing the planet to die.

[swimboy]

184. You are looking for GlobalWarmingUnderground.com

One-stop shopping for single-issue activists.

It's a little like Scotch Boutique, that store Gilda Radner had that sold only scotch tape.

[LostinVA]

185. giggle

[dsc]

193. I'll tell you what

the day I can kiss a guy on Main street with no fear of reprisal, then I'll stop think about it.

[Tyo]

155. Doncha know that it's not up to us to decide what offends us?

What offends us is determined by whoever makes the comment, joke, commercial, or whatever in question.

If the person or party on the originating end tells us that it was just in fun or there was no harm intended or we being too sensitive then we need to just shut up about it.

Same goes for third parties who have seen or heard whatever is bothering us and have established to their satisfaction that there is nothing there that we need be concerned about and we should just get over it.

Remember that it is up to others to determine how you are supposed to feel.

[Mabus]

169. Speaking of which, I got a reply from snickers.com

Here's the e-mail I got from the Mars Co.

In response to your email regarding SNICKERS BRAND .

As with all of our SNICKERS Brand advertising, our goal was to capture the attention of our core SNICKERS consumer.

Feedback from our target consumers has been positive. In addition, many media and website commentators of this year's Super Bowl commercial line-up ranked the commercial among this year's top ten best. USA Today ranked it #9 of its top ten pick.

We know that humor is highly subjective and understand that some people may have found the ad offensive. Clearly that was not our intent. Consequently, we do not plan to continue to air the ad on television or on our SNICKERS Brand website.

Please be assured that we appreciate your feedback and value you as a consumer. We will continue to forward your comments on to our Marketing Managers.

Sincerely,

Consumer Care
Masterfoods USA
A Division of Mars, Incorporated

MM/GEV010052469A

No apologies are going to come. :grr:

[Tyo]

177. No. But that's the way Mars is.

I wouldn't buy anything from them. I have given up M&Ms and I love M&Ms. Mars is not our friend. It's a very strange company.

[Mabus]

182. I returned a 10-pack of Snickers I got Saturday

I returned them on Monday and went around the store telling my friends who work there about the commericals and gave them the website where they could find the comment form. I followed up by e-mailing them with the link.

I am also giving up M&M's (which I dearly love) and all other Mars products. Fuck 'em.

[LostinVA]

171. Fantastic Post -- I'm damned tired of it, too

[HuffleClaw]

189. *yawn*

thats not gonna change my stance that i feel it was a clear lampooning of homophobic behaviour, especially the football players themselves.

[JackBeck]

197. Would you agree that homophobia is institutionalized in professional team sports?

And that it's allowed to run rampant and unchecked, so much so that gay player's are so scared that their secret will be found out, that they only come out after they retire because they didn't want to be "taken out" on the field?

So you found nothing wrong with the football players' reactions? Disgusting.

[HuffleClaw]

209. "So you found nothing wrong with the football players' reactions"????

WTF? i said no such thing.

[jonnyblitz]

222. you are wasting your time with these assholes. nt

[cotdom]

190. Your posting changed me. Along with some other postings this wk.

My first posting got put in the wrong place. (I dont post much)

Your posting brought tears to my eyes. And shame to my heart. I have not posted here on this, I have read all the posting on it this week.

I strongly dislike the right wing, insincere evangelicals, anyone who does not heed science, and any and all gay bashing. I would never make fun of it. Or would I. I just was wrong about what gay bashing was.

I have always felt that I treated homosexuality for what it was, a natural biological occurrence. Every bit as equal as my attraction to the opposite sex.

I am a progressive. I did not believe I was prejudiced in any way.

I did not find the advertisement offensive. "Whats the big deal" was my thoughts.

I have said things like "don't be gay", or "that sweater looks gay" or "that is so gay." I simply did not know any of this was offensive.

I will NEVER, NEVER say anything like that again. I will NEVER, NEVER find any of this humorous again. I cannot think of a time when I was not empathetic, but this has certainly been an issue I should have been vocal against.

I am not being sarcastic.

I apologize for this. I was wrong. I specifically and sincerely apologize to you for my thoughtlessness. When I am finished with this posting, I promise to make amends, beginning with a new policy in my company (a dozen employees) that this is as offensive as any other type of discrimination, and jokes about it will get a discussion from me. I will explain my reasoning.

Thanks.

[ThomCat]

196. Good heart-felt post.

:hug:

[Nimrod2005]

199. You need to find a three week program for rehab..you will be healed.

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

200. Well, you certainly picked an apt username.

:eyes:

[JackBeck]

201. LOL.

:rofl:

[Maraya1969]

202. Ok I never saw the commercial but I did say it might be just a hack against

homophobes but let me tell you a story that really hurt me to the bone.

My sexuality has been through all sorts of turns. Thought I was straight then sure I was gay then sure I was straight. I guess what I am is bi-sexual. But years ago I went into a food rehab for an eating problem and at that time I described myself as 100% gay.

What happened is the person that roomed with me did not want to be my roommate and then NO ONE wanted to be my roommate so I was the only one who didn't have a roommate. No one came out and said they didn't want to stay with me because I was gay but what other reason was there? In my real life I had a lot of friends so I don't think it was my personality. But there were no other gay people there and the counselors never made any effort at trying to get the other patients to accept me or at least to believe that I would not try and make a move on them if they were in the same room with me!

So now as tears fall from my eyes remembering how painful that was I wish to tell you and everyone who I did not empathize with that I am very sorry. I realize that other people may not understand why that was so painful to me but it really was. You really can't tell what another person experiences unless you walk in their shoes. But you can try your best to put yourself in the situation and most times I think you will find a similar situation in your own life.

I am truly sorry.

[dsc]

203. I feel so bad for you

I was in alcohol rehab for a few days and would have been mortified had that happened to me.

[blonndee]

206. Sorry for your sad experience

thanks for sharing it, though. I loved what you said: "You really can't tell what another person experiences unless you walk in their shoes. But you can try your best to put yourself in the situation and most times I think you will find a similar situation in your own life."

This is a sentiment that has been sorely lacking the last few days, and it means a lot to me personally, and I'm sure to others as well. Thank you.