"We Do Use Books That Call Jews Apes..."

[Spinoza]

UK: snip>"The principal of an Islamic school has admitted that it uses textbooks which describe Jews as "apes" and Christians as "pigs" and has refused to withdraw them.

Dr Sumaya Alyusuf confirmed that the offending books exist after former teacher Colin Cook, 57, alleged that children as young as five are taught from racist materials at the King Fahd Academy in Acton."<snip

>snip "In his employment tribunal claim Mr Cook, who taught English at the school for 19 years, has accused it of poisoning pupils' minds with a curriculum of hate. Arabic translators have found that the books also describe Jews as "repugnant".<snip

>snip "Pupils have allegedly been heard saying they want to "kill Americans", praising 9/11 and idolising Osama bin Laden as their "hero".<snip

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23384657-details/We+do+use+books+that+call+Jews+'apes'+admits+head+of+Islamic+school/article.do

[BayCityProgressive]

1. WOW

stick them on a plane and send them to iran or Saudi Arabia then...this shit pisses me off.

[BayCityProgressive]

2. and of course

the disgusting Saudi claw prints are all over this...the sooner we can rid ourselves of their oil and wtach their bank accounts wither away the better.

[CBGLuthier]

19. claw prints?

interesting that in decrying one group for their dehumanizing views you dehumanize another group.

[slackmaster]

45. Maybe it was lionizing rather than dehumanizing

Lions can leave some pretty heavy claw prints.

[Hoping4Change]

65. Give me a break.. Since when are literary tropes dehumanizing?

Let's lighten up on the literalism.:eyes:

[redqueen]

3. They should be put out of business for that.

I thought the UK had pretty strict hate speech laws. That would seem to violate them pretty thoroughly, I think.

Teaching hate... such a shitty thing to do. But it benefits someone's bottom line, I'm sure. :grr:

[BayCityProgressive]

4. The Bush family

is the Xtian version of the Saudi Muslim family. they both benefit together by funding extremism. Saudi Arabia is at the top of my list for scum of the Earth. Everything that can possibly be done should be done to make sure their economy and Royal family are completely ruined.

[redqueen]

14. Indeed they are...

yet another group whose bottom lines are improved by hate.

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. They do, but they also have strong religious protection laws,

and are still trying to find the balance between them.

[redqueen]

20. Nobody could seriously entertain the idea that teaching that

Jews are apes and Christians are pigs warrants religious protection. That's just nonsense.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. There are Christian Identity churches in this country that teach that

non-whites are "mud people" and Jews are descended from Satan. And they are given protections under our constitution to say such things.

Britain does not have a constitution, but it does have a body of law going back centuries guaranteeing the right to worship and freedom of speech. Anybody to takes action based on these teachings can be arrested and feel the full weight of the law, but if they are just teaching it they have the protection of the state.

The other option is to throw over the laws protecting free speech and religious expression, and return to the religious civil wars that wracked Britain 400 years ago, and Ireland in the last century.

Freedom of speech and freedom of worship does not apply only to those who you agree with. It even applies to the religiously insane, whether it's Mullah Omar or Jerry Falwell or Tom Cruise.

[redqueen]

24. !

I seriously did not want to know that.

:banghead:

[iverglas]

60. "Freedom of speech and freedom of worship does not apply". ..

to schools, in liberal democracies, in such a way as to permit the conveying of messages of racial, religious or other group hatred.

From the article in the opening post:

During the programme Louise Ellman, MP for Liverpool Riverside and chairman of the Jewish Labour Movement, accused the school of inciting racial hatred and hit out at Ofsted inspectors for failing to discover the textbooks. She said: "This whole situation is unacceptable. It is incitement. It is part of a deliberate Saudi initiative to install Wahabbism extremism among Muslims and in the rest of society. If Ofsted has not drawn attention to this, that is a failing of Ofsted.

http://www.ofsted.gov.uk is "the official body for inspecting schools" in the UK. Independent schools must meet the requirements for registration. Children are required to attend a school that is registered, I would assume.

The Education (Independent School Standards) (England) Regulations 2003
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2003/20031910.htm
provide:

Spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of pupils

2. The spiritual, moral, social and cultural development of pupils at the school meets the standard if the school promotes principles which -

(a) enable pupils to develop their self-knowledge, self-esteem and self-confidence;

(b) enable pupils to distinguish right from wrong and to respect the law;

(c) encourage pupils to accept responsibility for their behaviour, show initiative and understand how they can contribute to community life;

(d) provide pupils with a broad general knowledge of public institutions and services in England; and

(e) assist pupils to acquire an appreciation of and respect for their own and other cultures in a way that promotes tolerance and harmony between different cultural traditions.

I'd say that the materials in question would earn about an F on that score.

No one's "freedom of speech" trumps children's right to be educated in the manner that a society has decided is appropriate. "Just teaching" racial/religious hatred is an entirely different matter from just saying it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

73. I'm glad to see that Britain is more rational about it than we

colonials are. Maybe those schools can actually be shut down. Here, church schools can teach pretty much anything they want because of our 'hands off religion' stance. Probably one of the reasons that the US is lagging behind many, if not most, the rest of the industrial world in education. If a parent doesn't like what their kid is learning they can pull him out and send him to a school that will teach him that the world is 6,082 years old, and early humans co-existed with dinosaurs. Thirty years ago people came from all over the world to get an American education - now, Americans are going abroad to get a better and less expensive education than they can get at home.

I despair.

[redqueen]

76. Thank you so much for your participation

in this thread.

I'm very glad to know that my first instincts weren't so far off.

[JacksonWest]

30. Private schools are private for a reason. This is why vouchers should never happen.

I would hate to see my tax dollars go to fund this kind of hate. If people want to pay money to some nuckle dragger and child protective services lets them keep the kids-so be it. Yikes. What a bunch of crap.

[Beelzebud]

5. I know many Americans who teach their children Arabs are "Rag Heads" and "Sand Niggers".

It's sick, but this form of bigotted brainwashing isn't exclusive to Islam.

[Hoping4Change]

7. There's a big difference. This is official school curriculum

not some asshole spouting off in his house.

[Beelzebud]

8. I agree on that point. We haven't sunk to those depths yet.

And hopefully never will as long as I'm alive.

[Hoping4Change]

47. What do you mean we? Whose is we?

[redqueen]

31. Did you see post 22?

Apparently yes, still, by that definition, it is still not exclusive to Islam.

[Hoping4Change]

37. Did I comment on whether or not it is exclusive to Islam?

[redqueen]

38. You said there was a 'big difference'... which implies that idea, yes. n/t

[Hoping4Change]

48. I get really fed up with this implicit accusation of bigotry ..

There is nothing, zero, zilch in my comments or in any comments I have ever made that suggests I make blanket criticisms of entire groups of people. Do I think this man is a effing vile ignorant jerk? Yes I do and any other person who shares his views. Want to start a thread about a current example of an effing vile ignorant Christian? Go right ahead and I'll throw in my two cents about vile, ignorant Christian extremists.

And if you start a thread about vile sick stupid idiotic Christian extremists, I will take as a matter of course that you are not dissing every Christian that has ever lived. I will extend the courtesy of giving you the benefit of doubt. I will assume that you have put forward your comments in the spirit of goodwill, that your comments, however critical they might be of something I hold dear, is done because you feel the need to put your views forward.

[redqueen]

49. I'm not accusing you of bigotry...

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression.

I was only saying that there really isn't that big of a difference between Islamic schools in the UK preaching hate and Christian schools here preaching hate.

No need to start a new thread in order to discuss that fact, I don't think.

[Hoping4Change]

50. You are insinuating that by insisting that I qualify my remark so I

include the statement "that it's not just Islam".

[redqueen]

51. No, I'm really not.

I was only responding to your assertion that there's some 'big difference'. I don't see much difference at all.

[Hoping4Change]

52. That you don't see a difference between hate mongering

as official policy and hate mongering as individual stupidity is shocking. And not only is this offical policy but the hate monger is not some uneduated dimwit, he holds a doctorate. That education has not enlightened him but only served to deepen his religious narrow-mindedness is really beyond contempt.

[redqueen]

53. How is it only 'official policy'

if it is done in the UK?

Are there not these Christian Identity schools here, that do the same thing, as a matter of 'official policy'?

[Hoping4Change]

55. Its official policy in that it is part of the official curriculum of the

UK school that is cited in the article.

Why mention wacko Christian schools in this thread? Everyone knows their are wacko fundamentalists everywhere. This thread is about one particular Muslim school in the UK. Like I have stated previously, start a thread about some wacko extremist Christian school and I'll be glad to throw my two cents in.

[redqueen]

56. Why? Look at post 10.

The reason is to prevent that idea, that their type of hate is somehow worse than ours, from getting any traction whatsoever. These kinds of threads feed that sort of thinking. So IMO it does need to be pointed out.

Crap... I said post 22 earlier when I meant 10. I hope I can edit that.

[Hoping4Change]

61. Below I copied and pasted post 10. There is nothing in it that

says Muslims have more hate than anyone else. The poster is referring to the Islamic extremism not every Muslim. He says these people (ie Islamists)"are a threat...maybe not as bad as the repugs suggest....for now."


"Just a strawman...
....nothing to see here...

Have no interweb skills - would insert 'sarcasm' tag here if I did.


Seriously though...this is not an isolated case. We have the number one terrorist as president, but he will be gone soon. These people are a threat...maybe not as bad as the repugs suggest....for now. Due to 1400 years of indoctrination and civil war (sunni\shia - this will continue until the end of time regardless of US\Israeli Intervention) and the current US war against the world - this philosophy has a foothold and is gaining ground especially in the media age.


The enemy of my enemy is NOT always my friend. We should be able to see that both are dangerous and react accordingly. "
:shrug:

[redqueen]

74. If you can't see how the "this philosophy has a foothold

and is gaining ground" comment feeds into the anti-Islamic paranoia that is so popular with the propoganda-catapulting set, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Lurking Dem]

77. How is that any different

than complaining about the philosophy of Christian fundamentalism taking control of American politics?

[redqueen]

78. "Maybe not as bad as the repugs suggest... for now."

That, to me, would be like an Islamic person saying something like 'maybe the radical Christians aren't as bad as the jihadi's suggest... for now'.

It feeds paranoia. Most Muslims are not embracing Islamic fundamentalism. I would hope that most Christians are not embracing Christian fundamentalism... however I live in the South, so it certainly seems that way.

[Lurking Dem]

79. I also live in the South.

And I'm a Jew. My perceptions could be skewed. :+

[Hoping4Change]

80. He is referring to the extremists. What I don't get about Muslims

is that they claim that Islamists don't reflect real Islam yet they refuse to acknowledge that distinction when an Islamist is criticized. All of a sudden the critic is trouncing not the extremist but but every Muslim who has ever lived.

You are refusing to accept that non-Muslims are quite capable and willing to draw the distinction. You are convinced that every non-Muslim is a bigot. Your blind adherence to the belief that non-Muslims are mere stooges, incapable of of drawing distinctions, is bigotry on your part.

[redqueen]

81. No, no, and no.

You say "what I don't get about Muslims"... huh? How many have you talked to? What makes you so sure about your perceptions about what they will or won't acknowlege?

Where did I give you the impression that I refuse to accept that some/most non-Muslims are capable and willing to make that same distinction?

Where did I give you the impression that I am convinced that every non-Muslim is a bigot?

Blind adherence? Bigotry on my part?

You make a LOT of assumptions, friend.

[Hoping4Change]

89. Through my work I have contact with many Muslims from all over the

world. I also regularly watch two Muslim TV shows shown here in Canada, Tarek Fatah's Muslim Chronicles is a must see for me. I also regularly visit The MCC web-site for progressive Muslim views on current events. In the last year I have read Karen Armstrong's "Islam" and Ziauddin Sardar's "Desperately Seeking Paradise".

My impression of you is partly formed by what can only be described as a wilful desire to misread post 1o. The sentence he writes refers to the Islamists at the school mentioned in the article. You read it as if he wrote the following:

"Muslims are a threat...maybe not as bad as the repugs suggest....for now."


He did not write that he wrote "these people (ie Islamists)are a threat...maybe not as bad as the repugs suggest....for now."


My impression is also formed by your instance on qualifying every comment made about Islamists that Christian fundementalist are no better. By so doing I can only draw the conclusion that you are convinced that everyone is a bigot, an Islamaphobe.

[redqueen]

90. The statement as you quote it is no less inflammatory...

and IMO spreads paranoia.

Your last point does not seem to make logical sense to me. Just because I take every opportunity to try to defuse anti-Islamist paranoia does not mean I think that everyone who reads it needs to see it.

[Hoping4Change]

91. The statement I quote is inflammatory only if you think Islamists

ie Wahabi Muslims don't pose a threat. I and many non-Wahabi Muslims believe they do pose a serious threat. If you think this school is an isolated case, watch Britian's Channel 4's documentary called Undercover Mosque. Link below:



http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816&q=uk+mosque

[redqueen]

92. Sorry but I don't.

I see that they exist, yes. I see that the problem may even be growing.

However I don't see that it is growing so fast or so much that it warrants allowing ideas that cater to the propoganda-catapulting set, sorry.

I tend to believe Zbigniew Brzezinski on that point.


I think that documentary is irresponsible in 'predicting an imminent jihad'. Just as irresponsible as most mainstream outlets are about promoting paranoia about the reforms Chavez is enacting.

[Hoping4Change]

94. Where in the documentary does it say there is imminent jihad?

[redqueen]

95. I can't watch a 48 minute video now...

but from the comments describing the video:

"Chilling undercover investigation into the influence of Saudi Arabian religious extremism throughout the UK. Despite being considered Britain's principal ally in the Middle East, this disturbing report reveals Saudi Arabian Islam - Wahabism - is spreading a message of bigotry and hatred to a section of Muslims and predicting an imminent jihad. An undercover reporter joins Islamic worshippers"

[Hoping4Change]

96. When you have time watch the video to understand the context

of that remark.

[redqueen]

97. What is the context of the "imminent jihad" they refer to?

If you could boil it down for me, it'd be greatly appreciated.

I'm sure others in this thread who may not be able to or care to sit and watch a long program would appreciate it as well.

[Bridget Burke]

84. "What I don't get about Muslims".....

Is quite a bit.

[iverglas]

62. it actually seems to be quite *contrary to* official policy

The school in question is an "independent school". It is subject to registration requirements, and to inspection to ensure that it meets regulatory requirements. (See my previous post for the regulations.) Whatever inspection has been done has failed to turn up the materials in question, which were only disclosed when the teacher filed his employment complaint -- somewhat unsurprisingly, since they seem to have been in Arabic.

Enforcement activities in any area depend on violations coming to the attention of enforcement agencies. Complaints or reports are how most violations of laws and regulations come to official attention. It would be reasonable to think that this particular situation would be unlikely to come to official attention through complaints, since parents who send their children there are likely to know exactly what goes on and to approve of it. One might imagine that quite a lot of resources would have to be devoted to investigating if complaints aren't made about perceived violations such as this.

The materials have come to official attention now, and it might be safe to assume that an investigation will be conducted.

Ofsted, the inspecting body, had this to say in an annual report:

http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/ofsted/hc102/102-10.htm

331 Other key concerns recorded in inspections carried out by OFSTED were:

... the breadth of the curriculum for pupils attending some religious schools, schools specialising in preparing pupils for the entrance examinations of selective independent schools, and some theatre schools;

...

332 The curriculum provided for pupils in some specialist schools, for example theatre schools, remains narrow and unbalanced. In some religious schools the curriculum is broad. In one evangelical Christian school, for example, despite a relatively short taught week, all areas of the curriculum are represented within what is a distinctive and coherent pattern of topics. In other religious schools, however, the balance is unsatisfactory. Many religious schools provide a pattern of religious instruction throughout the morning, with an inevitably limited secular curriculum delivered in two hours a day in the afternoons. Even where the balance between religious and secular studies is different to this, the amount of time available for the core subjects is sometimes inadequate and this can pose severe problems in GCSE courses, for example the lack of opportunity for investigation in science. The creative and aesthetic areas of the curriculum are often poorly represented or non-existent. Schemes of work are often not available.

[Hoping4Change]

63. I used official in the sense that the books were part of school's

curriculum and were not books smuggled in by teacher who had his own agenda.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

11. Agreed. But it isn't formal.

There is a difference between what people tell their kids in their own house, and what it printed up in a schoolroom textbook for use in a classroom. We can't stamp out private bigotry, but we don't have to tolerate it in public.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Beelzebud]

12. I agree with that point.

[MrPrax]

13. Hajji's

I understand that is the term used by the armies we send to kill them in their own countries...

[slackmaster]

25. No, they are called "Tangos"

The phonetic equivalent of the letter "T", for "target".

[kestrel91316]

16. Thank you. Excellent point. There is just as much hatred being

spewed against Muslims by "christians" in the US. Possibly more.

[Warren DeMontague]

40. "Thank you"... for what? For raising a totally unrelated point as an attempt to derail

legitimate criticism against hate-filled, fundamentalist shitheads? For valiantly reenforcing the worst stereotypes right-wingers hold about "the left", namely that we're so interested in preserving the image of ALL Muslims as the victims in ALL situations, that we whitewash, ignore, or try to talk over anyone who points out the excesses committed by Islamic extremists?

My bottom line? Fundamentalist religion seems to create or attract a disproportionately large number of violent nutjobs and sexually repressed control freaks. I don't care if it's Christianity, Islam, or whatever. They don't get a free fucking pass.

[Hoping4Change]

67. Well said.

:applause:

[redqueen]

75. Who said anything about a free pass?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

26. Nice Red Herring you have raised

Disappointing to see so many people biting on it.

Argumentum ad hominem tu quoque does not excuse the bad behavior described in the OP.

[redqueen]

32. I don't think they're attempting to excuse it.

I think they're trying to prevent anyone from getting the idea that "our" religion is better than "theirs". Not that anyone would do that here...

[slackmaster]

35. What then, if any, is the point of that kind of comment?

It seems to be intended to stifle any discussion of the obviously bad situation described in the OP.

[redqueen]

39. To prevent ideas like the one in post 22 from gaining traction. n/t

[redqueen]

58. Oops... I meant post 10. n/t

[Missy M]

6. If that isn't teaching hatred I don't know what is....

can you imagine what they teach in Saudi Arabia. I wonder if they have been teaching this the whole 19 years Mr. Cook has been a teacher there? On the other hand, I think some of our so called religious leaders should stop there rantings about Islam.

[Bridget Burke]

85. How odd that Mr Cook made no protest for the 19 years he was employed...

And only made these accusations after he was fired.

[iverglas]

88. how odd that you would say this

-- seriously, I don't expect you not to check some facts.

From the article initially posted:

Mr Cook claims he was dismissed last December after blowing the whistle on the school for covering up cheating by children in GCSE exams.

He is bringing a tribunal claim for unfair dismissal, race discrimination and victimisation. The school is vigorously defending his claims.

No apparent reason to insinuate bad faith on his part. (I have read only that the school alleges misconduct, but not what misconduct it alleges or what its evidence is.)

From the article linked in post 27:

A textbook dated 2005/2006 allegedly asks the reader to "give examples of worthless religions... such as Judaism, Christianity, idol worship and others".

The book also allegedly asks the reader to "explain that those who die without adhering to Islam will go to hellfire".

In another textbook for 12 and 13 year olds, dated 2004/2005, the author allegedly says that a Koranic verse, which talks of turning people into monkeys and pigs, is about Jews and Christians.

It would have been kind of hard to complain about these books 15+ years before they were published.

The books were in Arabic, and were not part of the course materials for courses taught by Mr. Cook, who taught English. He may have become aware of the passages in question only after he was dismissed; we simply don't know.

[The Straight Story]

9. I bet they eat snickers for lunch too :)

on the other side of the coin (and I think what they are doing is wrong) - we don't preach hate, we just bomb and take over in the name of love.

[brentblack]

10. Just a strawman...

....nothing to see here...

Have no interweb skills - would insert 'sarcasm' tag here if I did.


Seriously though...this is not an isolated case. We have the number one terrorist as president, but he will be gone soon. These people are a threat...maybe not as bad as the repugs suggest....for now. Due to 1400 years of indoctrination and civil war (sunni\shia - this will continue until the end of time regardless of US\Israeli Intervention) and the current US war against the world - this philosophy has a foothold and is gaining ground especially in the media age.


The enemy of my enemy is NOT always my friend. We should be able to see that both are dangerous and react accordingly.

[redqueen]

15. Nothing personal, but I'll take Zbigniew Brzezinski's opinion over yours.

Did you read his testimony by chance?

[Lurking Dem]

18. >scrolling to bottom of textbook's title page

[theboss]

21. And begin the "Christians are just as bad" posts in 3...2...1

Because no thread can escape the moral equivalency police.

[Tyo]

29. Don't worry

You won't hear any criticism of Christianity from me. I know the rules.

[redqueen]

33. How is it "moral equivalency"?

I thought it was more aimed at preventing anyone from getting into the "they are bad but we are good" mentality.

Viewpoints like the one in post 10 are very popular where I live, and those ideas provide a good foundation for building support for unnecessary wars...

[spoony]

87. No shite.

No one on this entire site can post anything that even slightly casts another group in a bad light without the same old crap.

Thank you for having the nerve to call them on it.

[Tyo]

23. Religion

Gotta love it.

[CJCRANE]

27. "School edits controversial books"

Saudi-funded Islamic school says it is removing from text books controversial passages which allegedly brand other faiths as "worthless".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6337299.stm

[redqueen]

34. Thank you for the good news!

Now about those Christian Identity movements teaching about "mud people"...

[iverglas]

64. check the reaction from members of the public

From the article:

One local shop had put up a sign saying pupils from the school were not welcome and a passer-by had shouted abuse at a parent waiting outside the school gate.

"The local MP called me and said he was very concerned about the safety of the children and asked if we would like him to send extra police around the area.

Yup ... kids are being abused by school operators filling their heads with hate ... so let's blame them and hurt them a little more ...

[LaPera]

28. Get off it already...day in and day out!

[slackmaster]

36. Who do you want to get off what, and why?

Your post seems perfectly ambiguous to me.

[Balbus]

44. He's just mad because those silly Joooos...

are playing the victim card again.

[KamaAina]

41. The King Fahd Academy?

That couldn't be named after King Fahd of our loyal, reliable, dependable, thoroughly modern ally Saudi Arabia, now could it? :sarcasm:

And the Saudis certainly wouldn't be funding that kind of vile hatred out of their oil-swollen pockets, would they? :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[Lurking Dem]

42. Hence my post #18.

If Fahd and Neil Bush ran an education company together it would look like this.

[Odin2005]

43. Disgusting.

Yet I wouldn't be surprised if there are tons of cultural relativist "multiculturalists" who defend this crap.

[ftr23532]

46. Here's a recent WaPo article about the political intent of the creation of Wahhabism.

It's amazing this guy is still alive http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/03/AR2007020301480.html">considering he's in Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Writer Recasts Kingdom's History

By Faiza Saleh Ambah
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, February 4, 2007; Page A14

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia -- When university professor Khalid al-Dakhil was growing up, clergymen had a say in everything.

...

After decades of research and a doctoral thesis on the history of the Wahhabi movement, Dakhil came up with an answer. The clerics had inherited their power from Wahhab. The fiery, puritanical preacher had been instrumental in catapulting the House of Saud ahead of others vying for power at the time and became an influential and trusted partner in the first Saudi state. That alliance between the ruling family and the clergy continued down the generations, with the Wahhabis eliminating all other doctrines, taking charge of education and enforcing their strict brand of Islam in mosques and schools.

The religious connection also gave the Saud family legitimacy to oversee Islam's holiest places.

Dakhil's findings offer a new reading of the Wahhabi movement that contradicts the official narrative and could lead to a reduction of the clergy's power. Wahhab was inspired by politics as much as religion, Dakhil said, and he used religious discourse to further his political aim of creating a state in central Arabia, then composed of dozens of city-statelets under the Ottoman sphere of influence.

A more accurate historical reading, which would decrease the role of religion and highlight the political context, should reduce the clout of the clergy and give ordinary Saudis more of a say in how the country is run, Dakhil said.

...

By mainstream Muslim standards of his time, Wahhab used an extremist interpretation of Islam -- and particularly jihad, or holy war -- to rally people around the first Saudi state. He castigated those who did not believe in his interpretation, declaring local emirs and the Ottoman Empire infidels. The concepts were later used by the Saud family to conquer new territory. But that Wahhabi doctrine came back to haunt the royal family when it inspired armed militant groups, such as al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, to label them infidels and wage war against them.

...

In a chapter he has written for the book "Understanding Wahhabism," to be published this year by the University of Michigan Press, Dakhil argues that Wahhab's goal was to create a strong state to make up for the disintegrating tribal system and that the preacher found his first willing sponsor in Muhammad bin Saud, first head of the House of Saud.

The mosque was a place to exert authority; the call to prayer and enforcing communal prayers were symbols of authority, Dakhil said. Wahhab labeled as apostates all the villages that broke away from the first Saudi state or refused to join it, he said.
...

Douglas Farah has some http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/156/a-more-accurate-face-of-wahhabism-in-saudi-arabia#comment">more on this...

[Hoping4Change]

69. Thanks for posting this . Interesting read. nt

[Dracos]

54. IS this same shit being taught

at Islamic schools in the U.S.? To me this is hate speech and it will cause violence.

[Bridget Burke]

86. Obviously, you assume that it is.

Why don't you ask your Muslim co-workers?

[MadHound]

57. Is this despicable? Yes. Does it happen the world over? Yes.

Should we try to somehow ban this, or outlaw it? No. It is called freedom of speech, and while Britain doesn't have a specific law comparable to the First Amendment, they do have a body of work that does guarantee freedom of speech to a large degree.

This is analogous to similar practices that happen here in the US. There are RW fundy private schools that espouse pretty much the same ideology. However that is their right to do so, as horrid as such ideology is. If we start trying to control such speech, before you know it, all of our speech will be controlled.

Rather than trying to combat this with anger and laws, the more effective way is to counter with education and enlightenment.

[redqueen]

59. Very good point.

Thanks for the reminder.

[iverglas]

66. no, it simply is NOT "called freedom of speech"

What is taught in schools, to children, children being required to attend school, is a matter of public interest, and no one's freedom of speech trumps the rather enormous public interest in children not being taught to hate other members of their societies.

Well, I dunno, maybe in the US it does. But not in the civilized world.

[MadHound]

70. A private school, receiving no public funds, they can teach whatever they wish

And frankly that holds true in the UK, US and Canada. And as much as you and I find it despicable, these people have the right to do this. And frankly, I don't want to see free speech banned anywhere. Yes, that means that we have to put up with this sort of bullshit, just as we've had to put up with Nazis, Klan, and other hate groups. But if we start banning their speech, pretty soon a precendent will be set wherein our freedom of speech will be limited.

And frankly, all sorts of horrible shit is being taught to children in private schools. Yes, it is problematic, but rather than going around banning speech or religion or private schools, let us undertake to educate people in the error of their ways. That way we don't lose our freedom of speech and we lessen the hatred in this world.

And just because you live in Canada, don't think that your shit doesn't stink. I've a number of relatives up in BC and elsewhere, and there are plenty of strange neo nazi fundy whackos in Canada teaching the same thing to their kids in their own homes or private schools. It is the perils of free speech. Live with it, counteract it with education, but don't ever start banning free speech. Otherwise you might wake up to find that you too have been silenced.

[iverglas]

71. I'd like to see your sources

I've provided mine, upthread a ways. A private school in Canada, I assure you, can very much NOT teach whatever it wishes. As far as I can tell, that holds for the UK as well. I don't really know whether what you say is true of the US, but then I didn't say that what I said was.

And just because you live in Canada, don't think that your shit doesn't stink.

You might have wanted to read my most recent previous post here first. The moral equivalency one. Beat you to it, I think.

You'll also notice that the government took a rather active interest in the situation. If your Cdn friends know of any similar to it, they might want to have a word in the ear of their provincial education authorities.

Live with it, counteract it with education, but don't ever start banning free speech.

Oh, grow up and leave behind this juvenile, immature free-speech-ism, pullease. I know it sells well where you're at, and too often right here in this place, but most of the world recognizes it for the underdeveloped crap it is.

Otherwise you might wake up to find that you too have been silenced.

Funny thing is, for me it just ain't about me-me-me. In this case, it's about children being abused, to the detriment of both themselves and their societies.

In any event, me and mine aren't really dumb enough to elect a government that is going to try to silence me, so I'm really just not affected by silly scare tactics like this.

[Taxloss]

83. As I said below:

Incitement to racial hatred is an offence under the 1986 Public Order Act. British Jews are protected under race-hate legislation.

[Taxloss]

82. This is not freedom of speech.

Incitement to racial hatred is an offence under the 1986 Public Order Act. British Jews are protected under race-hate legislation.

[iverglas]

68. sometimes it just *is* so morally equivalent

-- and in fact just about verbatim.

http://www.straightgoods.com/item313.shtml
(very long article, so this is fair dealing)

It's a picturesque slice of central Alberta and the place where Stockwell Day, who made his name as leader of a renegade evangelical church, went from pastor to politician. Until recently the treasurer of Alberta, Day is now a candidate for the leadership of the Canadian Alliance party. (He subsequently became national leader of the party.)

... Following the Socred tradition, Day found his political calling while at the controversial Bentley Christian Centre. From 1978 to 85, Day was assistant pastor and school administrator. And in 1984 he made headlines for defending fundamentalist school curricula that a government commission later found to hold "a degree of insensitivity towards blacks, Jews and natives."

... Alberta senator Ron Ghitter headed the 18-month commission on schooling in the wake of the Keegstra affair. His report raised serious questions about the Accelerated Christian Education (ACE), a curriculum imported by the Centre from the Texas-based School of Tomorrow and a rigid set of prescriptions for fundamentalist teaching on scripture and creation science.

... Ghitter recalls one telling incident in a Red Deer Christian school where he discovered an ACE book that argued "all kinds of Buddhists and Muslims are evil." He took the book to the principal, who promptly denied knowing anything about the literature, saying that it was an old book. Ghitter checked the cover: it was new.

... At the time Day fervently defended the material - and the right of his school to teach whatever it wanted - saying he was willing to "go to jail, if need be."

... Moreover, there was the Jewish question. Paula Simons of the Edmonton Journal, who interviewed Day at the time, recently reported that the ACE materials were peppered with some disturbing Keegstra-esque statements. In one reading lesson, junior high students were asked: "The Jewish leaders were children of their father, the devil - true or false?"

It's the same the whole world over ...

Surely the issue here is the use of schools to poison children's minds, not who is doing it where. There's really just too much opportunity for pointing at the black pot pointing at the kettle in that scenario.

[sakabatou]

72. I'm not suprised

[devilgrrl]

93. This song by The Dead Kennedys is apropos of this thread...

Religious Vomit by The Dead Kennedys

Chorus
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions make me sick
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
They all claim that they have the truth
Thatll set you free
Just give em all your money and theyll set you free
Free for a fee

They all claim that they have the answer
When they dont even know the question
Theyre just a bunch of liars
They just want your money
They just want your consciousness

Chorus
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna throw up
All religions suck
All religions make me wanna bleah

They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me sick
They really make me ill