For those defending the Snickers commercial as bashing homophobes

[belladonna]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that you're all right and the intent of the commercial was to make fun of those silly homophobic guys out there. The problem is that, if that was their intent, they couldn't have done a worse job of it and someone needs to be fired. Because no matter WHAT their intent was, the gist of the commercials was that to even be PERCEIVED as gay is a bad thing and, if you've done anything that might make others look at you as gay, you should punish yourself in the most horrible ways imaginable. Whatever the intent, it was a HORRIBLE idea and offensive in the extreme. Period.

It's interesting that this Snickers commercial came along when it did. My daughter, seventeen-years-old, just came out to me last year. We had an interesting, and somewhat heartbreaking, conversation last week when we had to take a 45 minute car ride to a doctor's appointment. We talked about the fact that she is still somewhat uneasy about coming out to her father's side of the family because of a fear that they'll either a) ask her if this isn't just some passing phase and something she'll "get over" or b) act as though she doesn't exist anymore; the last because she has heard them make somewhat homophobic comments in the past. What's heartbreaking to me is that, on some level, I think she DOES wonder if there is something inherently wrong with her and I also think that there is a part of her that wishes she were straight, because that is just the easier way to be in this society.

My daughter should NOT have to worry about what will happen the first time she kisses another girl in public. She shouldn't have to worry about her father's side of the family treating her as though she has some sort of fucking defect and needs to be fixed. And last, but not least, my daughter shouldn't have to be subjected to ANY of this crap from some commercial on TV that makes it clear that being gay is the adult equivalent to cooties or some fucked up nasty defect. FROM A CANDY BAR COMPANY, of all things. Jeebus, I really, really hope the homophobic asswipe who came up with that piece of shit got fired.

Just stop defending it already. No matter what their intent when creating this colossal piece of shit, the end result was offensive and homophobic. End of story. And honestly, if their intent was to make fun of homophobes? The least they could have done is been creative enough to do SOMETHING to show the guys realizing that what they did was no big deal. I guess it was just easier to appeal to the obvious prejudice that still exists in our society against gays. That's wrong and unforgiveable.

[Bluebear]

1. Brava.

Thank you and love to you and your daughter.

[CBGLuthier]

2. We still have to talk about this?

It's gone. And all the opinions on both sides are totally meaningless. It is obvious there are two viewpoints about this, like it or not you are very, very, very unlikely to change any minds about it.

BTW, for the record, I thought it was in bad taste, like 80% of TV commercials but personally I am more offended by the Kleenex commercial that exploits Katrina victims than this stupid thing.

[Bluebear]

5. 'all the opinions on both sidea are totally meaningless.'

Tres sensitive.

[LostinVA]

6. Is there still homophobia? Gay bashing? Do gays have equal rights?

Then fuck yeah, we talk about it. And no, the views of people offended by this ad campaign aren't NOT "meaningless," any more than blacks who hated "Amos 'n Andy." It's bigotry, wrapped up in corporate marketing. Sickening.

[Bluebear]

8. Stop talking about it! "It's gone!"

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

11. OOPS! Sorry! I forgot I could get married in Virginia now

Oh wait, I can't!

[belladonna]

15. We discussed that the other day too

The fact that, if she ever wants to get married, she'll have to leave the state she was born in and grew up in, to do it. Sad that it has to be that way, isn't it?

[LostinVA]

25. It is sad -- tell her alot of us understand how much it sucks

However, parts of NJ are lovely, and it has alot of good colleges. She could do worse.

And I mean it -- kudos for being a great mom.

[belladonna]

7. Sad but true, we still have to talk about this

Also, who is it gone for? You're bored with it? Hide thread is a wonderful feature. I had something to say about it and I did. I don't control that mouse in your hand and what you click on.

[ThomCat]

12. Wow. You should win some kind of award

for that thoughtful, intelligent post just brimming over with empathy and understanding.
:eyes:

[JackBeck]

17. Sorry to offend your precious sensibilities.

The commercial and advertising campaign may be gone, but the real issue is the institutionalized homophobia the permeates professional team sports. I would like to go the next step and address this, instead of just closing shop and walking away.

[Change has come]

64. I totally agree

It was the clips of the players reactions that was the most disheartening. I don't expect a football player to be comfortable watching two guys accidentally kiss. But to allow their reactions to be filmed and distributed is a complete kick in the teeth to gay and gay friendly NFL fans.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. Thank you for dismissing a mother's love and concern.

Thank you for dismissing the very real issue of equality. In fact, thank you for strengthening my resolve to continue talking about this.

[WilliamPitt]

103. What's this "we" shit?

Don't participate if the issue holds no interest for you.

Pretty simple stuff, really.

[H2O Man]

3. Well said. n/t

[LostinVA]

4. A huge gigantic hug for you, belladonna

For actually being a loving, accepting parent when your daughter came out. Too many people don't do that. KNow what? It shows what a great parent you are from the fact that she trusted you -- and your reaction -- enough to come out to you.

And, a fantastic post.

[belladonna]

18. And a huge gigantic hug back to you

I just wish I could change everything for her and make all these fucking homophobes disappear from the face of the Earth. Then I'd feel like a fantastic mother. It's just sad seeing her even have to worry about these things.

[LostinVA]

43. I know -- but, I can tell you from experience

That having parents who are supportive helps a hell of a lot.

[Maven]

20. Second.

Excellent analysis.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. What do you think of the caveman commercials?

Just wondering, 'cuz the shrink and the talking heads don't seem to get it either.

[Whoa_Nelly]

10. I wrote to Mars Company when I saw that ad

and the alternative endings on their website. I was not kind.
Am glad you posted above what you did :applause: :thumbsup: :applause:

They wrote back to me with a form letter, and I replied.

Their "apology"

In response to your email regarding SNICKERS BRAND .

As with all of our SNICKERS Brand advertising, our goal was to capture the
attention of our core SNICKERS consumer.

Feedback from our target consumers has been positive. In addition, many media
and website commentators of this year's Super Bowl commercial line-up ranked the
commercial among this year's top ten best. USA Today ranked it #9 of its top ten
pick.

We know that humor is highly subjective and understand that some people may have
found the ad offensive. Clearly that was not our intent. Consequently, we do
not plan to continue to air the ad on television or on our SNICKERS Brand
website.

Please be assured that we appreciate your feedback and value you as a consumer.
We will continue to forward your comments on to our Marketing Managers.

Sincerely,

Consumer Care
Masterfoods USA
A Division of Mars, Incorporated


My Reply:

Target consumer? Oh, you mean all those big macho guys watching the Super Bowl last Sunday! Am sure there were no children, especially male children, watching the subliminal bashing and hatred of gays. After all, children don't eat Snickers very often, if at all, unless they get them in their Christmas stockings, Easter baskets, Halloween Trick or Treat bags, or even from a kind teacher at school as a reward or treat. And, God Forbid! if any of those children have any confused or confirmed personal feelings about their sexuality. Do you really think that I, a consumer who obviously was not considered part of the targeted audience, am that naïve?

Something is deep and really stinks, and I am not about to step into the "Target Consumer" apology dark brown mess you are laying out into which others will wade blindly. The entire email you sent in response to my negative view of your ads is disingenuous and highly dishonest.

I am so sick of the gender biases/issues, especially one as politically charged per the ad campaign route you chose, being displayed as an acceptable method to reach people and entice them to purchase a product. All that does is influence me to turn off the television, or mute and ignore it, while I make a mental note to let others know what trash they are supporting if they purchase that product or from that company for any reason.

Think your company can come up with ads that actually are positive in the message? I highly doubt it based upon the callousness your Snickers ad blatantly displayed, as well as your messy and shallow response to me via email.

It's ad campaigning such as yours that keeps reinforcing the message that our nation is still in the dark ages of the mid-20th Century: Women belong in the kitchen, only macho men play football, and gays are demons of that, "I think we accidentally kissed," outre sub-human species that must be driven out by doing "something manly."

I ain't buying your apology. You are so last Century. And as for buying your products ever again... Nope. You lost me, and many others, as a consumer. Guess that lightens the load for your next "Target Consumer" group.

PS How the hell could there be anything "positive" from any "target consumer" group, unless you select only homophobic morons to preview your trash? Oh! I think I just answered my own question.

Snickers' Target Consumer Group Member

[LostinVA]

13. OOOOO -- snap!

[Whoa_Nelly]

19. HI Lost!

How are you??? :hi:

Just want you to know, I painted a room red, too!

Look!
Took three coats...Red! A tricky paint color indeed!

[Maven]

26. Ugh. Such a difficult color to get right.

I just painted a small wall at my mother's house that color. I can't even count how many coats it took to cover.

Must have taken you forever. Looks great though. :)

[Whoa_Nelly]

95. It's in the technique to get it on well

and it's OK to have some color change depth as red is on the low end of the color spectrum.

If you ever have to paint with red again, PM me, and I'll give you the tips for pre-painting and application. I did three coats, but could have gotten away with just two...am an Interior Designer who sometimes seeks too much in perfecting the result of my labors... lol.

[LostinVA]

44. OOOOH -- pretty

I like the rug, btw.

[Whoa_Nelly]

106. Target rug...

has a lot of options for use due to the varied border colors and the beige/tan inset.

Fiesta Stripe
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/ref=br_1_6/601-7680648-8830534?ie=UTF8&asin=B000BUWL4W&frombrowse=1

[ThomCat]

16. I hope they pass that letter on to their advertising team.

:evilgrin:

Show those idiots that what a total screw up their entire campaign was. Millions of dollars, hundreds of people working on this for six months or more, and that's what they came up with...

[Whoa_Nelly]

27. Good response re: 6 months and that's all they came up with

:rofl:

If they do respond, may I use your response from here in my next letter to them? :D

[ThomCat]

30. Please feel free.

:)

[swimboy]

97. I know that didn't come out of McMann and Tate

Samantha would never have allowed Darrin to go forward with such a campaign.

And if she hadn't stopped him, I know Cousin Serena would have.

[ThomCat]

104. LOL! No. No, not McMann and Tate.

:rofl:


BBDO does their advertising. BBDO is the largest subsidiary of Omnicom, one of the 5 largest advertising agencies in the world.

[belladonna]

21. What a GREAT letter!

I think that deserves one of these :yourock: and one of these :applause:

[Whoa_Nelly]

24. Thanks, belladonna!

am sure I could have added even more to it :evilgrin:

[MuseRider]

35. Whoa, Whoa Nelly!

That was excellent!

[Whoa_Nelly]

65. Thanks, MuseRider!

Abd I really did include the Morans guy photo in the email response :rofl:

[MuseRider]

108. You didn't!

That is just too too perfect. Good for you. I hope they look at that and bang their heads against the wall. :rofl:

[Whoa_Nelly]

136. Indeed, I did!

And am hoping for the same response as you are :rofl:

[ThomCat]

14. Well said.

I'm glad your daughter has you to talk to and lean on.

[salin]

22. A generous view (per granted the ad creators the intent to punk homophopes

rather than an intent to exploit homophobia to sell candybars. You are correct that either way - it was a HUGE blunder for an advertising campaign and someone or some people ought to be canned.

As for those defending it? Same old crowd that likes to hide behind "Anti-PC" in order to say obnoxious things. It doesn't mean that they are actually condoning Gay Bashing (or whatever specific thing they defend at the time) - it does often however demonstrate a penchant for being offensive and relishing the moment when riling other people up emotionally. From some, I think the defense of the ad = a place holder for the next time they want to say something really offensive/obnoxious/insensitive about someone/somegroup in the future. Why do I add that point to this post? Because it is doubtful that these folks will suddenly decide to be respectful of others on this issue or on others. :-(

on edit: there is already at least one example of this behavior down thread.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MuseRider]

28. Nicely done!

Thank you. A very personal story. :hug:

[dysfunctional press]

29. you even got the gist wrong...

you said- "...the gist of the commercials was that to even be PERCEIVED as gay is a bad thing and, if you've done anything that might make others look at you as gay, you should punish yourself in the most horrible ways imaginable..."

wrong.

the gist of the commercial is that IN THE EYES AND SMALL MINDS OF THE IDIOT HOMOPHOBES BEING PARODIED- to even be PERCEIVED as gay is a bad thing and, if you've done anything that might make others look at you as gay, you should punish yourself in the most horrible ways imaginable...

get it yet?

[Maven]

33. HOMOPHOBIA is not parodied

whether or not the people in the commercial are.

Do YOU get it yet?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=139684&mesg_id=141311

[dysfunctional press]

36. ummmm...YES, it IS being parodied.

so apparently, we can still mark you down as just NOT getting it.

thanks...:hi:

[Maven]

46. Why, because you say it is?

Because you keep parroting the same apologist line? Because you're an expert on recognizing homophobia?

If someone aired a "funny" commercial about beating someone up after discovering he's black, would you think it was OK since the attackers looked crazy and foolish?

[JackBeck]

57. Was this satire? Were these men only making fun of racists?

"The Float and the Three Men's Conduct

The float in question was entitled "Black to the Future: Broad Channel 2098." Meant to win the prize for funniest float in the parade, it exhibited a strong antipathy for racial integration - particularly, the integration of Broad Channel, Queens.

The float consisted of a flatbed truck on top of which the plaintiffs sat with a large bucket of fried chicken and watermelons. The men wore blackface and Afro wigs made of mops, and they mockingly engaged in various civil rights chants, including "No justice, no peace."

Bringing the display to a new low, one of the plaintiffs announced, "Look what they did to our brother in Texas, we would not allow them here...." and proceeded to hang by his hands from the back of the truck. In carrying out this stunt, he was manifestly parodying the dragging murder of James Byrd, Jr. - a black man whom three white men killed in Jasper, Texas. To the cheers of spectators, the firefighter repeated his display."

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20030716.html

[ScreamingMeemie]

34. QuestionAll, I think you need to be quiet now.

Even The not so good people at Snickers realized it was homophobic.

[Bluebear]

37. Oh is THAT who "ignored" is?

;)

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. Hi Bluebear!

You win! :hug:

[dysfunctional press]

oh dear...how will i EVER sleep tonite...?

woe is me...

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

I was wondering, too

There are just sooooo many 'phobes on my IL.

[dysfunctional press]

40. no, they didn't... they kow-towed to a bunch of hissy fits.

but they got plenty of advertising for their money.

[ScreamingMeemie]

51. Shame on you QuestionAll.

I don't think of refusal to buy a product as advertising, do you?

My daughter used to buy a bag of M&M's for the bus ride home every day. She's made the decision not to. I wouldn't call that positive advertising. The fact that a 16/almost 17 year old can realize the real "gist" of an ad over supposed adults really blows my mind, and makes me proud.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Puglover]

100. Seriously, how old are you?

17? Because your posts sound like a very angry immature young kid.

"for raising another knee-jerking sheep."


Ad hominims generally start flying around when you don't have an argument. You've been spamming all these threads essentially saying the same thing over and over. What? Do you have stock in Mars or something? Give it a rest. You're just sounding stupid.

[Maven]

110. AWW! Look at you, kiddo.

You're such a REBEL.

:rofl:

[JackBeck]

113. Right.

And migrant workers spraying pesticides on fruit have exploding 401Ks.

[ThomCat]

125. You just insulted someone's parenting skills and child!

What the hell is wrong with you?
x(

[LeftyMom]

128. That was a personal attack against another DUer and against the rules

Twice, actually, since you both criticized MrsGrumpy's parenting for no good reason and called her daughter (also a DUer) a "knee-jerking sheep".

I hope the mods are taking notes, because you passed tiresome some time ago.

[sniffa]

71. there you go with your hissy fits again

you're getting tiresome. we get it: you're a bigot. we won't mistake you for a progressive ever again.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

99. Again?

I don't think I ever started...

[bicentennial_baby]

112. he's not talking to you

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

121. I'm sorry if my comment seemed out of place.

I was agreeing with sniffa.

[belladonna]

132. I think you misunderstood

Sniffa was talking about someone else's hissy fits. She was just pointing out that he wasn't referring to you with the hissy fits post :hi:

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

146. I kinda figured that out.

:hi:

Great OP, by the way.

[Beelzebud]

41. His opinion is just as valid as yours... The commercial is highly subjective...

The proof that the commercial is subjective is the fact that there are a few folks here at DU, who are gay, that were not offended by the commercial. They have been roundly ignored during this whole debate, but they exist.

When I saw the commercial I thought it was a nice stab at neanderthal-like homophobic men. I understand that many homosexuals were offended by it, and that is reason enough to not air the ad, but QuestionAll does not need to be quiet. His opinion is valid, because the commercial was subjective.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. I can have the opinion that his is not.

He's spent an entire three days telling GLBT's how to think. How things are. Not stating his opinion. Just having a blast being mean, basically. Sorry. I'm not buying.

[Beelzebud]

49. You can behave however you wish.

It doesn't change the fact that the commercial was subjective.

Different people saw it in different ways. Even among the gay community here at DU.

[Bluebear]

53. I recall one "gay" who still likes the commercial here.

Where are all these people you speak of?

[Beelzebud]

59. With your attitude it's not hard to see why they wouldn't want to discuss this.

I love how you put gay in quotes. As if someone seeing this commercial differently than you must not really be gay...

Your abrasive attitude is probably why you aren't hearing from more people that disagree with you.

[ScreamingMeemie]

60. His abrasive attitude...

:rofl: ouch.

[Beelzebud]

76. Yeah, I stand by what I said. You aren't discussing this at all, you're just wanting to pile on.

What have I said that is offensive here?

The commercial is subjective. Thats a fact based on the different reactions to it.

[ScreamingMeemie]

81. Pile on? No. I don't think so. I think I'm participating in discussions

on whether or not this commercial is

1. Relevant (see shiny objects thread)

2. Hurtful (see any number of horrified responses)


I will continue to post my opinion on this board whether or not it is approved by you. :hi:

[Bluebear]

68. Well, you totally misread that.

I put gay in quotes as in "a gay". As in I would never call someone "a gay".

Yeah, abrasive.

[ScreamingMeemie]

56. It was subjective only to the truly blind, IMO. Let's keep doing this.

Talking in circles to people who just don't care about hurting others is a whole lot of fun.

[Beelzebud]

70. The fact that not everyone sees it the same way is proof it was subjective...

I'm not trying to be hurtful here at all.

You seem like you've just taken an emotional stance on this, and are now just protecting yourself from perceived enemies here.

I'm not your foe.

I saw the ad differently than you. I agree that since so many took offense to it, the right thing to do was pull the ad. I'm not an insensitive shit.

But don't try to insult my intelligence because we didn't see this commercial exactly the same.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maven]

55. "just having a blast being mean"

He's on a ROLL, if you know what I mean.

[belladonna]

42. Gee, thanks for opening my eyes

So if that's the true gist, where's the positive message at the end that being gay is NOT a bad thing and these guys are just homophobic idiots? Nah, still don't get it.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[belladonna]

73. I'll take my double-digit IQ in lieu of being an insufferable asshole

Have a nice day. I've argued with people like you before and it's an utter waste of time. You're right, everyone else is wrong and your mind will not be changed. Good for you.

[JackBeck]

88. Why did people get upset with this? Looks to me that racists are just be parodied.

"The Float and the Three Men's Conduct

The float in question was entitled "Black to the Future: Broad Channel 2098." Meant to win the prize for funniest float in the parade, it exhibited a strong antipathy for racial integration - particularly, the integration of Broad Channel, Queens.

The float consisted of a flatbed truck on top of which the plaintiffs sat with a large bucket of fried chicken and watermelons. The men wore blackface and Afro wigs made of mops, and they mockingly engaged in various civil rights chants, including "No justice, no peace."

Bringing the display to a new low, one of the plaintiffs announced, "Look what they did to our brother in Texas, we would not allow them here...." and proceeded to hang by his hands from the back of the truck. In carrying out this stunt, he was manifestly parodying the dragging murder of James Byrd, Jr. - a black man whom three white men killed in Jasper, Texas. To the cheers of spectators, the firefighter repeated his display."

Edit for link: http://writ.news.findlaw.com/colb/20030716.html

[sniffa]

31. thank you

peopLe need to hear this.

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. Your daughter should not have to worry about living her life as who

she is at all. Your daughter should not be afraid to love and be loved, and have that recognized in the eyes of the law.

It won't mean much, but tell your sweet daughter that she will always exist for the ones who care. Those who think.

[belladonna]

48. I tell her that on a daily basis

If her father's side of the family treats her differently, they don't deserve HER love and respect. There are plenty of people on this side who love and cherish her just the way she is.

[Bluebear]

61. She's a lucky lady :)

:hug:

[ScreamingMeemie]

114. You are a wonderful mother, belladonna.

:hug:

[MichaelHarris]

47. Yeah!!!

and lets go back in time and beat up Jerry Seinfeld and George for their "Not that's there's anything wrong with that" fiasco.

[Bluebear]

50. Uh, you are equating the two, are you?

[belladonna]

58. Not a great comparison

Try again. I don't remember Jerry and George drinking poison or beating the shit out of each other in that episode.

[MichaelHarris]

72. nope they didn't do that

"I'll sleep with you right now baby" George to the woman writing the school article trying to prove his "manliness".

What was more offensive, the method they used to prove their manliness or that the felt they needed to prove manliness?

[LostinVA]

82. Nope, totally off base with that "analogy"

[MichaelHarris]

84. OK

[BuyingThyme]

54. What if a brother accidentally kissed a sister on the lips?

Would an adverse reaction be evidence that people hate brothers and sisters?

Would it result in an absurd discussion about incest?

Or could there somehow be more to it?

[salin]

74. media images/messages that perpetuate an underlying

prejudice - and a discussion of that is 'absurd' is that what you are suggesting per 'an absurd discussion about incest?'

How is it that some folks move discussions from gay to incest?...

[Bluebear]

79. Seems like a non-sequitur to me! nt

[BuyingThyme]

85. Yes, the discussion is absurd.

But why is it that you are compelled to move the discussion to incest, even in the face of its absurdity?

[salin]

109. er - your post about a brother and sister

in the ad - and your comments about an 'abusrd discussion of incest' - YOU brought it up. i just pointed out that for a few folks - the discussion of gay somehow brings up comparisons to incest. Ergo you brought it up - and I just commented on it.

[BuyingThyme]

117. At no point did I compare homosexuality to incest.

I simply demonstrated how people are compelled to go down an absurd path of thinking. (The path you just went down.)

[salin]

129. okiedokie

sure - you *never* mentioned the word, nor made the comparison (in the resetting of the ad). :shrug:

[BuyingThyme]

131. I won't pretend that mentioning a word is the same as

comparing it to whatever you wish; sorry.

I'm the one who said that the line of thinking would be absurd.

You disagree, correct?

[ThomCat]

141. You brought up Incest in comparison to Gayness.

You mentioned it at the top of this subthread. And now you're doing all kinds of denial dances.

You know, the pattern is now obvious. You're truly nuts. :crazy:

[BuyingThyme]

145. I see. What was the comparison?

Hint: There wasn't one.

[ThomCat]

147. You brought up that comparsion is response to the OP.

that's the comparison. Or are you claiming that you just post random thoughts on random threads? :crazy:

[BuyingThyme]

148. Show me where I made the comparison.

Don't play your childish games; just be an adult for once.

[ThomCat]

151. LOL!

So you are saying that your post was not a response to the OP? :crazy:

Please tell us, what were you responding to?

[BuyingThyme]

152. Still waiting.

[ThomCat]

153. Me too.

It's obvious you were responding to the OP, so that that makes your post a comparison to the point of the OP. You certainly weren't agreeing with it, after all.

So where's your answer? If you weren't creating a comparison to the OP, then what were you responding to?

Oh wait, you're not going to respond. You're going to post 100 small posts with no substance challenging my honesty but never actually getting to a point. :eyes:

I'm done here. Please go see your therapist. It's been too long. :crazy:

[BuyingThyme]

155. What does it mean to create a comparison to the OP?

Please explain this for the gallery.

Then explain how it's the same as comparing incest and homosexuality.

Then, when you twice fail, explain why you need somebody to compare incest to homosexuality.

[Bluebear]

124. You can't win here.

You will be here for hours talking in a circle. It's like talking to Dr. Sbaitso, if you remember that old computer program.

[salin]

130. thanks for the advice

I just picked up on that circular loop thing.

[ThomCat]

142. He's not just kidding.

She'll say something, and then immediately deny saying it and blame you for the entire topic she brought up. And she's obscessed with calling everyone else liars, and goes on about how she knows and understands the truth.
:eyes:

Escape while you can. Seriously.

[JackBeck]

144. I agree.

Make a mental note of this little dust-up. Many of us have.

[Maven]

83. Thanks for the false analogy.

But as you can see, we're all stocked up on false apologist arguments here.

[BuyingThyme]

89. The analogy is spot on.

The apology is non-existent.

[MichaelHarris]

90. OOps sorry

wrong response :) I can't seem to follow threads today

[sniffa]

116. ...

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

92. Ridiculous "analogy"

Which is all your so-called "debates" ever are.

[Maven]

93. All he/she is looking to do at this point is string out responses forever

based on gibberish.

At this point, I'm not sure we aren't talking to a Turing Machine.

[BuyingThyme]

105. Projection.

[BuyingThyme]

98. Isn't this the analogy you want?

Don't you want people to believe that candy bar makers and football watchers are repulsed by homosexuality in the same way they're repulsed by incest?

Or is it that the analogy is so spot on that exposes the fact that you don't actually believe that this is what's going on?

[Freddie Stubbs]

66. The INTENT of the ad was to sell candy bars

I think that is something that too many people are loosing sight of. Perhaps some people are spending so much time thinking about politics that it is making them unable to understand that not everyone is motivated in their actions by politics.

[sniffa]

77. um, of course that was the intent

most ads try to seLL products.

[LostinVA]

86. Yes, and they did that via institutionalized homophobia

Just like many products use "tits and ass" to sell products. That still doesn't mean that institutionalized sexism isn't being employed to see said products to a certain demographic. The same demographic as this ad was aimed at. Kinda telling, that.

Politics? WTF said anything about POLITICS? I'm talking about my life and my denial of rights as an American citizen. That's LIFE, not some political intellectual gamesmanship.

[Bluebear]

102. The INTENT of the ad was to sell candy bars - - -

You think? :hi:

[salin]

122. but isn't it kind of icky to try to exploit homophobia - to sell a product?

Prolly the ad producers were not thinking of it politically. Prolly thought it was 'funny' hence the multiple endings - why was it funny? Ah - yes - touches on the homophobia... bwahaha knee-slapping funny - now folks will buy even more of our candybars. :eyes:

Reminds me of an ad campaign for the annual Detroit car race (can't recall the name but it used to run on the open streets in the city) - they moved the race to "Belle Isle" a park on an Island in the Detroit River. To promote the race they commissioned a poster (was to be that year's image on all marketing materials) - based on Monet's Picnic painting (or is that Manet?) Dabs of paint (Pointellism sp?) that when viewed from a little distance can see the image of people picnicking on a beach/shore. In this painting the dabs would be 'faces watching the race'.

But the guffaw on this one was - all of the points - the faces - were WHITE. In a race in a city that was, at the time, 90% African American. DoH! For very different reasons than this current situation - that became hugely controversial. I am only reminded of this because there is an aspect of the situation that makes me think... after all of the people involved in making the ad, in approving the ad, in previewing the ad - they were all so insulated that they couldn't anticipate the negative reaction?

[smoogatz]

67. I won't be buying any more Mars products--and I'm sort of the target audience.

The ad was obviously insensitive, whatever its intent; the website was much worse. It's a damned shame, too--those new dark chocolate M&Ms are highly addictive.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

69. Just need to add 5 more seconds to the commercial...

.... have one of the guys pull another Snickers out of his pocket and give his buddy a sly smile.

<wink>

[Recursion]

75. Jesus F. Christ...

ecause no matter WHAT their intent was, the gist of the commercials was that to even be PERCEIVED as gay is a bad thing and, if you've done anything that might make others look at you as gay, you should punish yourself in the most horrible ways imaginable.

That was the gist to you. The gist to me was that big dumb homophobic guys do stupid things to prove how "manly" they are.

$10 says you'll have forgotten about this ad in a year, donated to a charity of the winner's choice. Any takers?

[Beelzebud]

87. "The gist to me was that big dumb homophobic guys do stupid things to prove how "manly" they are."

That is it in a nutshell. Thats exactly the way I saw the ad too.

Mars was correct to pull the ad once people expressed outrage about it.

But a few people around here need to realize that many of us saw the ad this way, and not a hate-filled way towards homosexuals. It was a major slam at "manly" men who have to prove to *themselves* that they are really tough guys. It was a slam at a majority of the people playing, and watching that football game. At least thats how I saw it.

I'm sorry if others didn't see it that way.

[MichaelHarris]

120. I agree

just as I tried to show that Seinfeld episode, "Not that's there's anything wrong with that", in the same light. You have George willing to sleep with a stranger to prove his manliness. They didn't accept it, they told me my "analogy" was absurd. I'm still trying to get an answer to this questions, which offended you more, men doing dangerous things to prove their manliness or that they felt the need to prove it? Some could say that in the 80s sleeping with strangers was dangerous, just as George wanted to do. Oh well, I tried.

[smoogatz]

135. What if, instead of two guys, it was a white guy and a black woman?

Still a big laugh-a-thon? Or is that territory in which a candy manufacturer ought not to tread?

[JackBeck]

140. Didn't we get something like that during the election.

Remember the implication in that one Harold Ford ad? "Call Me"...

[smoogatz]

143. Yep.

I guess if you can sell a politician by playing to bigots, there's no reason you can't sell candy bars the same way.

[swimboy]

78. Thank you for saying this so clearly.

I wish all the best for your daughter. It IS pretty difficult to make your way in the straight world and she is lucky to have you in her corner. :hug:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. Your first paragraph doesn't pan out.

If, for the sake of argument, the commercial was satire of homophobes, then the gist ISN'T that gay is a bad thing.

:shrug:

[Maven]

101. Please see my explanation about why this is not satire of homophobia

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=139684&mesg_id=141311

I realize that for most gay people recognizing this is more of a gut reaction because we're attuned to it. But it may be that others need a bit more explanation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

111. In all honesty...

I don't understand your argument.

I disagree with satire needing a foundation of irony. Good satire often does. But satire does not need irony, nor does it need to be good or funny for that matter, and in this case it's neither.

[Maven]

118. How do you figure?

How can there be satire without some sense of literary irony? A satirical voice is an ironic voice. If someone unintentionally created a work that reflected poorly on an issue they were trying to promote, that would be ironic in itself, but it wouldn't actually be satire. "Birth of a Nation" is not satire.

I'm not sure what you're saying.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Let's look at the strict definition.

1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.

3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.

So definition one pretty much somes it up. Irony is often employed in satire. But it can be plan old fashtioned ridicule as well.

Take, for example, the character Heddy Lamarr from Blazing Saddles, a rather satirical film with quite a bit of bigotry involved. The character's a racist, and ridiculed quite splendidly. But I don't see how he's an ironic character.

[Maven]

133. The irony is that he's someone in power, he's someone on the "right side"

of the racial power structure of the day when the story is set, and he looks like a fool! Ironic within the framework of the story. Satirical.

BTW, the definition you provided proves MY point, not yours.

Part 1 applies the term to the use (in a more abstract sense) of irony, sarcasm etc. to ridicule; Part 2 applies the term also to individual works (in a particularized sense) that use such a technique--it subsumes the definition in Part 1; Part 3 applies the term even more generally to the genre itself--it subsumes both part 1 and part 2.

They're not mutually exclusive.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

134. Hmm.

And the racist towns people?

"BTW, the definition you provided proves MY point, not yours."

Do you really think so?

"irony, sarcasm, ridicule... or the like"

[Maven]

138. The racist towns people are the same.

They're the "mob," the white, dominant majority--supposedly the "better people" in the historical context of the story--and they too look like slackjawed morons.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. And how are the two homophobic mechanics...

fundamentally different than the townspeople from Blazing Saddles?

[Maven]

154. Because there's no irony to their response to the kiss.

It's not ironic--they don't look foolish for pulling away in disgust, only for what they do afterward to "redeem" themselves. We're not laughing at their homophobia, we're laughing at their insecurity. The homophobia is allowed to stand as the "proper" initial response to such a situation. In fact, the makers of the ad went to great lengths to maximize the gross-out factor, in order to amplify the viewer's own revulsion to the kiss. We're meant to identify with that feeling. Thus, the mechanic's response itself is ridiculed, but it doesn't in anyway redeem the kiss or chide the viewer for feeling repulsed by it.

In Blazing Saddles, racism itself is the subject of ridicule. That's the difference.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

156. ...

"We're not laughing at their homophobia, we're laughing at their insecurity."

Their homophobia is their insecurity.

[Maven]

157. Look, I can't keep analyzing this POS ad.

You didn't find it offensive. A lot of people did. Why is it difficult to respect that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

158. I do respect it.

What makes you think I don't?

[Maven]

159. Good, then let's agree to disagree and move on.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

160. Sounds good.

Wouldn't want to give a homophobic commericial free publicity.

[Maven]

161. You're right.

I'd rather get it taken off the air.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

162. From what I've read...

that's apparently already been taken care of.

[belladonna]

115. Sorry, I'll work on my writing skills

I think most people got what I meant. I didn't realize my English professor hung out here. The point I was trying to make is that, whatever their intent was, the end result was homophobic and offensive. That is all.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

119. If their intent was satire of homophobes...

and a good portion of the audience interpreted that intent correctly...

[belladonna]

127. IF there intent was satire of homophobes

They STILL did not do a good job of it. The only thing they accomplished was to make it seem as though being gay is utterly disgusting and that you should immediately resort to violence and extreme acts to get rid of those nasty gay cooties. That's my problem with it and it will remain a problem as long as their so-called "target audience" exists and is catered to.

[Behind the Aegis]

96. Well said!

You stated the case perfectly. Well done!!!

On a personal note, not all families are the same. My mom's side had some pretty homophobic members. I was worried about them too. However, they decided their love for me was more important than their petty bigotry and ignorance. You and your daughter will be able to best gage the situation, but I must say, I was VERY surprised, pleasantly so, by my family. I wish you both the best!

[Midlodemocrat]

107. Thank you. Your daughter is very lucky to have you.

Many homosexuals don't have the support from their families that you are showing your daughter. You should be very proud.


:hug:

[Imagevision]

126. Don't be silly, Ted Haggard loved the commercial...

[smoogatz]

137. Too bad you deleted the sub-thread, mods.

It should have been left up as an object lesson to the rest of the trolls. Once in a while, it's good to hoist up one of their heads on a pike.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

149. lol.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

150. lol.

[dapper]

163. Lady and The Tramp

That was my first impression of the commercial.

Why in the heck would one guy eat another guys snicker bar when it is half way in his mouth? yuck!
I didn't find the commercial "homophobic" although I didn't find it too funny, just strange. I enjoyed the Blockbuster commercial and I don't hear anyone from PETA complaining... :-) Did you want the guys to say "so...we kissed, no big deal. There are gays out there that do it all the time"?!?!?

Personally, You seem more upset about your daughters first kiss and how the other side of the family will react to the news of her coming out and are blaming it on a 30 second commercial. What's really bothering you?


Dapper

[JackBeck]

164. Blech.

Eww. I just got internet cooties. I need a shower.

And for the record, yes, it would have been A LOT better if they kissed and it was no big deal. Where the implication would be that they would do anything for a great candybar.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

165. personally she is worried about it because homophobia is rampant

and add perpetuating it are as well.

[LostinVA]

166. How dare you? Are you truly that clueless?

Her daughter's first kiss and family reactions are directly related to institutionalized homophobia -- like what's shown in the damned ad campaign.

Hey, look, I have an extra buck -- go buy a fucking clue. Or maybe some sensitivity training.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

167. I agree with LostinVA. Here's a buck. Buy a clue and some sensitivity training.

Geez.

Also, look at the whole ad campaign and see if it reminds you of "Lady & the Tramp." If it does, you really need to examine your views.

[ThomCat]

168. I'll toss in a dollar too

If that will make you go away. :eyes:

[belladonna]

169. I'm just blaming it on some "harmless" ad that says it's "normal" to feel icky about "those gays"

What I want is for that attitude to not exist. What I want is for a fucking CANDY BAR company to not further homophobic crap. What I want is for my daughter to feel NORMAL and not feel as though she is going to be thought of as defective because she wants to kiss another girl. What's really bothering me is that as long as the so-called target audience holds on to their views that there is something nasty about two men kissing, she will not have that freedom and she will have to worry about being perceived as "icky" because she isn't straight.

[belladonna]

170. Also, what's really bothering me?

What's really bothering me at the moment is that I have to argue about the fact this ad is incredibly offensive with ANYONE on DU.

[LostinVA]

171. Yup, I know

*HUG*

[Broken_Hero]

172. Locking

The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html

This thread has veered, greatly from the above paragraph.

Thanks,
petersond
DU Moderator