They're openly discussing bringing back the draft on msnbc.

[Philosoraptor]

I hate this shit. It was only on for a couple minutes with the accompanying headline, "Bringing back the Draft?" Just putting it out there for the consumers to chew on a bit while they graze.

It had the super attractive anchor lady interviewing another one of the countless retired military experts saying important sounding words written by the neo nazis, saying it out loud, following up that other disgusting general's report on bringing back the good ol' draft to help 'win' the war. (It worked out so well in Vietnam y'know).

You say you want a revolution? Bring back the draft.

[endarkenment]

1. They can openly go fuck themselves. On MSNBC.

I won't complain.

[HereSince1628]

2. Well, not until they secure the border with Canada :)

[pnwmom]

4. They're working on that. And now that we have the new passports,

it will be a simple matter to track draftees who try to leave the country.

[alphafemale]

28. But, you only need the passports to get back in, right?

Just asking.

[cherokeeprogressive]

48. Canada doesn't welcome draft dodgers any longer. n/t

[Sapere aude]

3. Why don't we talk about cutting off the funding and bring the troops home.

So we draft unwitting children and send them into the war because we need more cannon fodder. Real wise choice America.

Sure you don't want your kid to go but are you so damn sure it won't be just like Vietnam where the rich could buy their kids way out of it?

This was an illegal war to begin with and to draft kids to fight is should be illegal too!

[BOSSHOG]

5. I believe they'll be some good come of this

After the chickenhawks clean up the mess from shitting their pants they might contact their DC representatives and tell them that ending our involvement in Iraq might be a pretty good idea NOW.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Good, that will FINNALY wake the youth up

by the way, as many of us have pointed out before, we already have one, its economic, but it is a draft...

[bluestateguy]

13. I think they are already pretty well awake

Young people are among the most opposed to this war of all age groups.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. They are? Well then tell me this

why is is that most demonstrations (scratch that all demonstrations) I have gone to I can count those under thirty with the fingers of one hand?

[bluestateguy]

19. Why? Because it's not 1968 anymore.

Nowadays most college-aged people have to work to be able to pay their way through school.

9 times out of 10 street protests don't work anyway. And don't cite the exceptions for me. I said 9 out of 10.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Yeah so? Tallking to youth

and I have talked to many.. opposition to the war? Are you kidding me? What time is Heroes on?

That is the attitude I have gotten

And the single issue that they have told me will wake them up is a national military draft. All of a sudden it will matter to them

By the way, I have talked to many kids.

The only thing that gets their lukewarm interest is the cost of college, becuse it affects them directly. The war... you kidding me? They are like most of the population, unless they have skin in the game, they don't care.

[bluestateguy]

24. I have talked to many of them too

And it's that very cost of college that forces them to work work work to pay for school. Their remaining time must be spent on studying. Few of them are convinced that holding up a pickett sign on the street corner will do any good, while the people in power just ride by in their limousines ignoring them and continuing to maintain the status quo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. And alas they stay home

even on election day

True, nothing will change, they are correct

They are not willing to pay any price to force any change

Damn it... I know this is hard to understand but you want changes, you need to sacrifice

[Sir Jeffrey]

35. Or they get arrested for protesting and have that on their records..

as they try to enter the workforce.

[bluestateguy]

45. That is also a very good point that I didn't think of

nt

[rockymountaindem]

50. Yep

Hit that nail on the head. Nobody gives you breaks anymore. If you get in trouble with the law, you could also be expelled from a lot of places. I mean, everybody talks about "zero tolerence" but then don't expect to be taken at their word.

[NuttyFluffers]

49. i understand your frustration, but i still disagree

i'm around that age and i end up talking to that age group almost exclusively on just about a daily basis. it's almost impossible to find anyone who *likes* bush. also, they have a high vote turnout -- surprisingly so. but here's the kicker, they have no tolerance for getting their chain jerked around and "fighting pointlessly." so they often avoid topics of politics because they hate being bullied or shown to be behind in political events (and politics is an area that rapidly can escape someone's "authority of knowledge"). and lastly, they have next to no faith in "street theater" for social change, so if they have work or school to do those will get naturally higher priority. seriously, a lot of these canned, licensed, contained protests for the past few decades have really been terribly ineffective. strikes, boycotts, buy ins, etc, yes, that's effective; but dancing around w/ a million people only to be ignored in the a) media b) gov't c) local public soccer mom crowd atop of being harassed by the police just doesn't sound like a productive use of time or a sacrifice. it just seems like a tired plea for attention when no one cares anymore.

apathy to gov'ts relevance and watching it collapse by its own neglect has been more useful in getting people to wake up than all those huge protests before. seriously, if the biggest world protest (the global one against war in iraq) cannot get the people's attention here and change usa politicians' slow dive into hell, what makes anyone think that repeatedly doing the same losing thing is going to work. getting the heck out of america by getting your degree and heading for the border will definitely bring change. a nation suffering brain drain and economy based on indentured immigrants is bound for an explosion; why delay the inevitable, when you can set up the emergency escape hatches for your loved ones and others?

[Sir Jeffrey]

39. Here...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/15/AR2006071500685.html

"In 2004, young people voted in the highest percentage they had since 1992, and in the third-highest percentage in the nine presidential elections since a constitutional amendment in 1971 lowered the voting age to 18."

and there's more:

"But in the 2004 presidential election, when the overall electorate showed a four-percentage-point increase in turnout from 2000, the turnout rate among people ages 18 to 24 increased by 11 points -- to 47 percent from 36 percent.

The spike was attributed, in part, to intense voter turnout efforts and a highly polarized election. But people who study this generation -- known as Generation Y, millennials and even DotNets -- say it is also disposed to be more politically active and passionate.

"The millennials are quite idealistic and concerned about a whole range of issues, compared to the Xers, which tend to be pessimistic and detached," said Peter Levine, director of the Center for Information & Research on Civic Learning & Engagement (CIRCLE) at the University of Maryland, and a member of Generation X."

and finally, the kicker:

"The Democratic advantage extends from 2004, when young people were the only age group Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) won in his presidential bid. The question for Democrats now is whether the youth advantage can turn into the margin of victory in close races that will decide control of Congress this November."

Got that? They were the only group, as a whole, to vote for Kerry over Bush.

Just because several kids you spoke to are more interested in video games than the war doesn't mean you get to paint the rest of them with a broad brush. They're far more liberal and open minded than any recent generation, mine included (I'm 29). If you want to alienate them, let a Democratically elected Congress institute the draft to send them off to die in Bush's third war. See how big the Green Party gets after that. Then we'll have Republican govt for 20 years.

[Puregonzo1188]

51. As a young person and a high school student I can tell you

that is fundamentally untrue. I helped start a club at school called "Students for Peace & Social Justice" after a mess of students attended the March on the Pentagon. I go to an extremely Conservative school. When I was tabling for a charity walk to raise money to build schools in Uganda I had things thrown at me, because "you shouldn't walk for countries other then America." When we put up over 300 fliars and a group nazis ripped them all down. Yet, at one of our meeting we had 30 people show up (which is really good for a high school club). So please don't tell me about waking the youth up. Besides, I though liberals were beyond playing with human lives in order to make political points. Apparently I am very wrong.

[rockymountaindem]

54. Good for you!

As someone who's not too long out of high school, I know that having 30 people show up for anything on a voluntary basis is a good acocmplishment. I also went to a conservative high school... I kinda wish I was still in that environment just because I don't have anybody to argue with anymore :evilgrin:

[otherlander]

55. "I though liberals were beyond playing with human lives in order to make political points"

Yeah... Isn't endangering civillians in order to scare the population into working for your political goals what they call, um..... terrorism? And I know that they wouldn't be civillians anymore once they're drafted, but it's not like they joined the military of their own free will.

By the way, nice to see another high school age person around here. The only-america-matters attitude sucks, but it's good to see that even in such a right-wing school you could still find a good-sized group of people who actually cared about helping people. The closest thing my school has to the club you started is Amnesty International... I should join that next year, I really should.

[Puregonzo1188]

57. I'm in Amnesty International, it's a great organization.

My school didn't have a pro-peace club either until someone started one.

[Telly Savalas]

52. So 2% of 30+ aged people show up at protests versus only 0.2% of those under 30.

That's still a pretty dismal number. Sounds like over 30's need to be awakened too.

If you're gonna have a draft, you should draft everybody, not just young people.

[Katherine Brengle]

33. BUT, we also tend to be less active about it.

I am 26. Most of my friends (all of them as far as I know) oppose the war.

But they don't talk about it. They don't stand out on the street with signs, or march in protest.

There's no activism.

[endarkenment]

23. Except the ones taking a dirt nap.

After being forced to go fight this fucked up war.

They won't be waking up, will they?

[MADem]

7. Good. Make those College Republicans SQUIRM....no deferments, this time round!!!

They'll be singing "Give peace a chance" and chanting "Hell, no, we won't go!" before ya know it!!!

This is a government document, not subject to copyright restrictions: http://www.sss.gov/viet.htm

HOW THE DRAFT HAS CHANGED SINCE VIETNAM


If a draft were held today, it would be dramatically different from the one held during the Vietnam War. A series of reforms during the latter part of the Vietnam conflict changed the way the draft operated to make it more fair and equitable. If a draft were held today, there would be fewer reasons to excuse a man from service.

Before Congress made improvements to the draft in 1971, a man could qualify for a student deferment if he could show he was a full-time student making satisfactory progress toward a degree.


Under the current draft law, a college student can have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior can be postponed until the end of the academic year.

If a draft were held today, local boards would better represent the communities they serve.


The changes in the new draft law made in 1971 included the provision that membership on the boards was required to be as representative as possible of the racial and national origin of registrants in the area served by the board.

A draft held today would use a lottery to determine the order of call.


Before the lottery was implemented in the latter part of the Vietnam conflict, Local Boards called men classified 1-A, 18 1/2 through 25 years old, oldest first. This resulted in uncertainty for the potential draftees during the entire time they were within the draft-eligible age group. A draft held today would use a lottery system under which a man would spend only one year in first priority for the draft - either the calendar year he turned 20 or the year his deferment ended. Each year after that, he would be placed in a succeedingly lower priority group and his liability for the draft would lessen accordingly. In this way, he would be spared the uncertainty of waiting until his 26th birthday to be certain he would not be drafted.

[tabasco]

21. I would never support a system in which the young Dick Cheney's

could have other priorities.

[MADem]

41. Under the revised draft regs in place now, he woulda been wearing combat boots.

Those loopholes have been closed.

[Exiled in America]

44. What about me? Never lifted an agressive finger in my life and am starting Grad. School....

...should I go and be fodder for an illegal unjustifiable war?

[notadmblnd]

29. I said this yesterday and I was laughed at

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1570419

[MADem]

40. Well, the ones who are laughing at you are laughing in the dark

There is certainly a risk involved in advocating a "share the burden" draft. But unless every American family unit shares that risk, there will NEVER be discussion --substantive discussion, not discussion amongst the small minority who are politically aware--about this war amongst the broader population.

It's only the poor, the disadvantaged, the kids with no place to live once they hit 18, who are being "drafted" now. They're being drafted by necessity, lured by promises of easy money and big paydays, and even at that, it's bottom of the barrel time. It just cannot continue.

Don't beat yourself up for being able to see that big picture, now!

[AnotherGreenWorld]

8. excellent

[TahitiNut]

9. "You say you want a revolution? Bring back the draft."

Really? Do you really believe that the huge majority who reject the notion of a draft and national service (and, indeed, any direct participation in self-governance) would be willing to revolt? I doubt it. If that were true, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in. I think the damage to democracy, which means direct participation in our own self-governance, is so severe that the vast majority would merely succumb to a greater autocracy - "let George do it."

When democracy is essentially dead, we'll have no viable choice ... and it'll be a matter of complying or else. Whether "else" is internment, inability to work, emigration, or whatever is entirely going to be based on individual circumstances. We are not a "community" or a "common wealth" ... are about as divorced from having ANY ability to have a General Strike or engage in ANY kind of self-governance as any nation on earth right now. And it's only going to get worse, as far as I can see.

[bluestateguy]

10. I have other priorities than military service

nt

[SoonerPride]

11. Start the draft. I'm all for it. The occupation would be over in a week.

Good.

[bluestateguy]

17. No it won't

Even if only one third of the young people who are drafted comply and are inducted, then you've got thousands of new bodies to fill the military with for more occupations and wars.

Sure, there would be more protests. I don't doubt that. But there would be enough young people who would go--either because they support the war, or because they have just been conditioned to respect authority no matter what--that the armed forces would have an ever bigger war machine.

[endarkenment]

18. Give or take 10 years and 50,000 dead. nt.

[Javaman]

31. What kind of acid are you on? nt

[uppityperson]

46. How? Why? It never has before.

As far as "the draft ended Viet Nam", it took 10 yrs and 50,000 dead military before the war ground down. Vietnam ended the draft, the draft didn't end Viet Nam.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

12. Good for us

This type of dialog should scare the hell out of politicians still supporting this war. It also should bring out a whole new wave of anti-war voters.

[npincus]

15. Great! Keep the surge alive!

Chimpy's surge to the toilet of history, that is.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. There will be a revolution, alright.

Drafts don't work. We, as a country, are no where near the unity necessary to put together an involuntary army.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

20. My Bush-supporting mother said "They've got to do something about him (Bush)"

When I told her that Bush wanted to go to war against Iran and that they were talking about reinstating the draft.

I just about fell out of my chair.

I had expected her not to believe me.

Not only did she quickly agree that he wanted to go to war against Iran but she basically said that they had to stop Bush.

I know better than to hope that she's going to switch to the Dem Party - her cognitive dissonance is too strong.

This will be the last straw for a lot of the 30% who still say they support Bush. Just wait until their kids and grandkids start having to worry about being drafted.

[bamacrat]

25. Damn, and I mean shit..

"You say you want a revolution? Bring back the draft." -

That may be the only way for this country to revolt, but can you imagine how people would be jailed or even executed for refusing service. The draft dodgers and card burners of the 60s and early 70s wouldnt compare to the amount of people refusing service. It would be revolutionary.

[libodem]

27. I'm going to paraphrase from

an ECONOMIST article, I was reading here last night. This is because I think they should go for the young Republicans first. The desire to pander to the 'conservative base' is partly to blame for the administrations near incompetence. Recruiting from the conservative 'counter establishment' -choosing people for their ideological purity rather than their competence or intelligence to work in the White House or to be in positions of authority in Iraq, has made some pretty weak links. They have some 150 Bush administration personnel hired from Pat Robinson University. Those are the pukes that believe in this war for oil. Start there. I think young Repuke kids, will look just as good with prosthetic arms, legs, and genitals as poor kids from the projects. They might be even brighter with closed head injuries. Maybe they'd wake up to the criminal intent of this administration and get on the correct side of this issue. PS(this isn't the real me it's the outrage talking)

[Javaman]

30. let's start with the anchor people, then we will see how quickly their tunes change. nt

[libodem]

32. Java

in a way the press has paid a price. I believe that many news-people have been fragged in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Javaman]

34. real reporters I feel sorry for, the morons that parrot the party line

on tv need to get a taste of reality.

[lpbk2713]

36. Jack Cafferty's four o'clock question ....

"What would it take for the United States to consider reinstituting the draft?"


Link: http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/situation.room/

[Javaman]

37. And so it begins. nt

[fed-up]

38. I knew there was a reason I didn't want my 18YO DEM college student signing 1 year lease

it will suck big time if I have to somehow help get him down to his aunt's in Belize if they really do bring back the draft

[LastLiberal in PalmSprings]

42. Deferments will be available to those who meet these conditions:

1. If they have "other priorities" (Cheney)

2. If their father can get them a cushy slot in the National Guard (*, Quayle)

3. If they have a pile in their ass. (Limbaugh)

4. If they are driving a Winnebago to support Mitt Romney's campaign. (My Five Chickenhawk Sons)

[mzmolly]

43. Are they in favor? I think it's the quickest way to end the war,

personally. But, I am against it regardless.

[Marr]

47. Five nurses were trampled to death today as Young Republicans stampeded through

hospitals, desperately pleading for medical deferments.

[Telly Savalas]

53. The best way to strenghten an organization is to force a bunch of people

who don't want to be there to join.

[Philosoraptor]

56. .............