DO YOU BELIEVE any human being INTENTIONALLY brings hardship unto his/her life?

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

If you do, explain.

If you do not, explain.

Thank you.

[jpgray]

1. Of course. Knowing the best thing to do and then specifically doing something else is very human

Do you have any kids? Do you remember being one? :D

[Xipe Totec]

2. Yes

that's the very definition of altruism.

[Az]

3. No, thats not the definition of altruism

Altruism is when someone does something for someone else at their expense with no expectation of reward. And we are wired for that.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

5. No.

Never.

[Az]

9. You differ with the current scientific understanding of the mind

Altruism is an observable effect and comes by way of how our brain works. Take a look at any disaster footage. You will see the same thing time and time again. The initial reaction is for people to see to their own safety and then once they size up the situation you will see people rushing into danger to help other people.

We all feel a sense of connectivity to one another due to our neurological wiring. Mirror Neurons internalize the plight of others so that we feel what we see them experiencing. Due to this we can empathize with their plight and due to our sense of it seek to help them out. Despite the dangers and risks they may present.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

24. I know life is bigger than me.

I respect science. But life is bigger than "science", too.

I love the the adventure of figuring life while appreciating it, simultaneously.

I think it's silly to imagine that any living being INTENTIONALLY creates suffering.

There are many who will comprehend paths of escape from suffering as intentional creation of it BUT that is just silly.

No life seeks suffering. Life gives, surely,...but that is not "suffering".

[pitohui]

74. ack...earworm...life is bigger, it's bigger than you, and you are not me

sorry, will go back in my cave now :-)

yes, to answer your question w. a straigh face, sure, i believe there are bipolar fuckwits who intentionally draw harm on themselves if it will destroy those around them, i don't understand these people, but they exist

[BlooInBloo]

LOLOLOL!!!! Yah, science has reached a consensus on what "the mind" is! LOLOLOLOLOL!!!

[Az]

30. Are you saying there is no consensus?

Are you saying there are no studies on altruism producing working evidence? Are you saying we have not discovered neurons that seem to work to connect social species to one another?

Not sure what you are trying to say other than to suggest that for some reason science has no idea what is going on in the mind. Hate to break it to you but we actually do have a lot of ideas about what is going on up there. And one of them is the fact that we do see to be wired to be altruistic.

[BlooInBloo]

31. You attempted to refer to something, viz "the current scientific understanding of the mind"...

... unfortunately, nonesuch exists.

[Az]

34. That is a rather ignorant statement

It may be true that we do not know everything about the mind and that there is much to be worked out. But the fact is there is a great deal of which we do know. Are you suggesting that there can be no consensus about the brain or the mind until we have everything nailed down?

[BlooInBloo]

39. Talk about ignorance. Mind != brain (not by definition at any rate).

EDIT: It may make a difference if you *meant* to be talking about brains this entire time, rather than minds; I dunno, and I don't care.

[Az]

41. Show me a mind without a brain

A mind is the result of a brain in action. Again if you peruse scientific literature you will find that this is a pretty well founded position. You can affect every aspect of the mind by altering the brain. We can remove aspects of the mind by shorting out aspects of the brain. We can remove memories. We can alter behavior. We can alter every aspect of the mind by altering the brain. The evidence existing rather demonstrably points to the mind being the result of the brain.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

52. Why are you being so combative? I mean,...what's going on, here?

:shrug:

Do you need to feel in complete control over your life,...even though your aren't?

:shrug:

Why are you in such an aggressive ATTACK mode against a DUer?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. I have to say that the contention that we are "wired" for certain things bothers me

It creates the impression that certain traits (in this case a good one but more often than not it's something less admirable) are not just innate but immutable. The human mind is such an amazingly complex and elastic thing that it seems a shame to use such limiting to describe its workings.

[Az]

48. Tendencies are very mutable

The brain creates a series of drives and impulses. We have no choice but to internalize another's condition. That is simply how we our neurons work. But we can learn new behaviors in relation to these conditions. But these are overlays. Natural tendencies still exert pressure. But conditioning can overcome these. Usually such practices are used to over come traits we have learned are negative in our lives. But some have attempted to remove such tendencies as altruism due to theories that such behavior is irrational.

[Xipe Totec]

13. even at their detriment

that's implicit.

Or explicit, rather, according to some definitions:

al·tru·ism (ăl'trū-ĭz'əm)

Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.
Zoology. Instinctive behavior that is detrimental to the individual but favors the survival or spread of that individual's genes, as by benefiting its relatives.

http://www.answers.com/topic/altruism?cat=health

[Az]

18. Think of the rescue workers that put their lives at risk

And the three that lost their lives. This is a common occurrence in our species. There are often fatalities that occur because someone was trying to help someone else. There is no rational benefit of risking one's life for another's life whom you do not know. Yet we feel compelled to reach out and help even those we do not know.

[Xipe Totec]

23. We seem to be in intense agreement

I'm at a loss to see where my statement differed from your assessment, vis-a-vis the OP's question.

[Az]

26. I strongly insist on my right to agree with you

:P

Was just adding to what you were saying. :D

[LynzM]

4. Yes.

Some people do so solely for the attention it will bring them from others.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

7. It seems you have a particular experience. Would you share it? n/t

[JuniperLea]

38. Yep... Drama Queen... Attention Whore... et al eom

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

49. You repeat your judgment with no explanation. How many times are you going to do that?

Is an "attention whore" someone who posts flame bites, over and over and over again?

Is an "attention whore" someone who casts judgment without ANY conscience pertaining to the facts of the human condition?

What is an "attention whore", to you?

[Az]

6. There are people who are self destructive

But its not as simple as them doing such things to bring hardship on themselves. Typically people do such things as a means of gaining control over their life when they feel they do not have control.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

11. So, they aren't intentionally bringing hardship upon themselves.

They are trying to escape hardship?

[Az]

15. Yep

People who cut themselves for example do so to alleviate emotional turmoil and a sense of loss of control.

Dread is a powerful factor in this particular issue. Dread is different than fear. Dread is the emotional turmoil of waiting for something stressful to occur. Depending on how much stress the looming event presents and the anxiety brought about by the dread some people will hurt themselves in order to take their mind off the impending situation.

I have a needle phobia for example. Its not the pain that causes me problems. Its the idea of the needle. So when the idea enters into my mind I sometimes strike myself on the legs or arms to distract my thinking processes. The idea is to create an emotional reaction that I can control rather than let my mind run rampant with the idea of needles.

[Igel]

8. People fairly often bring short-term hardship into their lives--

and the lives of their families--believing that in the long-term things will be better.

Sometimes things don't turn out better.

[Trillo]

80. I wrote out a few hundred words to say pretty much the same thing

that you stated much more concisely.

I would add that out of this short- to long-term intent versus outcome, white-collar crooks seek to advantage themselves ($$$) though the deliberate creation of false promise in the mark's present mind.

[Igel]

91. That's a first.

99 times out of a hundred I say in a few hundred words what nearly anybody else (except possibly my first dissertation advisor) could say in, oh, two. Three on a bad, wordy day.

[seemslikeadream]

10. Here's how I'd explain it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5847of8Gpo

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
tell me
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

if ya run to the sea the sea will be boiling
if ya run to the sea the sea will be boiling
if ya run to the sea the sea will be boiling
oh on that day

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to tell me
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
oh on that day

Downpressor man where ya gonna run to tell me
Downpressor man where ya gonna run to
Downpressor man where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

And if ya make your bed in hell I will be there
make your bed in hell i will be there
I say make your bed in hell i will be there
on that day

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to tell me
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
if ya run to the rocks the rocks will be melting
oh on that day

Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
Downpressorman where ya gonna run to
oh on that day

Where are ya gonna fuckin' run to
Downpressorman
where are ya gonna fuckin' run to

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

43. It's,...incredible (only word I could come up with) that so many, here, actually BELIEVE,...

,...ANY HUMAN BEING INTENTIONALLY CREATES SUFFERING FOR HIM OR HER SELVE!!!

Altruism set aside, no living creature INTENTIONALLY creates suffering for themselves.

[Sticky]

81. You'd be surprised

I work with battered women and they often knowingly choose men who are violent. Why? I don't know.....but I see it all the time.

[marions ghost]

93. isn't it called Masochism?

n/t

[EFerrari]

95. If masochism is a pathological enjoyment of pain

it's not really the same thing, is it, because it by definition involves compulsion?

[marions ghost]

98. right OK--masochism seems the most extreme form of

"intentional pain" --negative behavior done to oneself for gratification. But then other negative behavior is to avoid pain, not to bring it on. And so is not technically masochistic.

Whether conscious, subconscious...just how intentional, just how unintentional seems debatable on a case-by-case basis. And a lot of this behavior is only judged to be negative in hindsight. Should we blame ourselves for what we do not see coming?

I can appreciate the connection to the OP's other question "so how much are we really in control?" as taking this to a more social psychological level. It's partly why I like this 'anything goes' forum format where the personal mixes with the socio/political. Different perspectives come out, relative to our unique experience & personalities. Seems we like to live by the thought that we DO control our own destinies. But maybe we don't. At least not to the degree we may have thought.

The last six years brings up these soul-searching questions...what has been done to us, and how sick is our body politic? How do we who call ourselves progressives differ among ourselves? And how distant are we from those we judge as enemies? Do those we view as pathological organisms really have all the control, and what does the fight against them look like? You start to wonder if some of our current sadistic leaders enjoy watching our pain. And some of the more masochistic among us help them do it. At the same time, many followers of the opposition see us liberals the same way through perceptions created by their programmers. So we are fighting each other over here ideologically even while the hot war is over in Iraq. We as a country are going through the Dark Night. I don't know if we will come out the other side.

Just commenting on your Q....

[EFerrari]

99. We do seem to be in a (power) struggle for the center of the nation

if such a thing is possible in an entity that is so huge and so diverse.

I agree about the Darkness. It's not hyperbole but imho, a precise description.

Let's see how we do.

[liberalmuse]

12. Unintentionally, yes.

I don't know of anyone who has intentionally brought hardship on themselves, however, I do know people who subconsciously do. Part of them likes the drama and the attention that is focused on them. Consciously, they would never admit it.

[RB TexLa]

14. When they feel the way to better their lives is too hard and choose not to do it, yes they

have intentionally brought hardship on to themselves.

[pscot]

16. Absolutely

We've all known people who choose one self-destructive relationship after another. Pain is a form of validation. And there's nothing like drug addixtion to add purpose to an otherwise pointless existence. Then there's Evel Kneevl.

[DemGa]

17. Maybe not intentionally, but unconsciously yes...

a reaction to early childhood experiences, and some later ones as well. It happens all the time.

[DemGa]

56. And I'll add

Make the unconscious conscious, and to that extent, increase autonomy.

[ismnotwasm]

19. Outside of poor coping skills?

Or a mental condition? Wherever, however and whenever such things might arise from?

No.

In health care I've seen what we call "non compliant" folks who persists in addictions or behaviors to the point it threatens their lives. Or takes their lives. In all these cases, there is some underlying factor, some unaddressed or unreachable problem. It's very sad. And it's easy to judge them, it almost feels better to judge them, but I find that counterproductive and quite frankly nasty.

I remember the first word of the first lecture I heard in nursing school. I never forgot it. "This the the human body. It's function is survival"

How people survive, well that's a different story.

[sneakythomas]

20. Sure we do

but probably not in the way that I think you're asking the question.

I'm a recovering alcoholic. I've brought a lot of hardship into my life. Was that my intention? No, but I did what I did intentionally, it just had some consequences that were hard. And yes I could have predicted the outcome. but some how thought the rules of life didnt' apply to me.

So no I didn't set out to hurt myself, but I'm still responsible for what happened.

[CoffeeCat]

21. I believe that some people...

...live lives full of chaos, mess and trouble.

I believe these people are in tremendous pain. They are stuck in
a cycle of self abuse and their choices--are often
led by the subconscious to quell their pain Their addictions,
alcoholism, drug abuse, abusive relationships, underemployment,
under achievement and self-sabotage bring hardship--and this
hardship is an outward symptom of an internal struggle.

Acting out rage, pain and trauma bring hardship, yes. However,
the genesis of acting out is often dire environmental circumstances
from childhood.

I believe the vast majority of prisoners, addicts, people with mental
illness, underachievers, and people who don't believe in their own power---
are lost children who have never found a way to recapture the humanity
that was stolen from them.

Some people are hardwired from birth to expect pain and hardship. This
leads to the self-creation of pain and hardship. It's not intentional.

It's a soul-cry for help.

[JuniperLea]

22. They are called "Drama Queens" eom

[Az]

25. There is a lot more to such behavior than just that

A lot of people deal with real problems that lead to them doing self destructive things. Depression as an example can lead to a great deal of self destructive behaviors. And no depression is not just someone being sad and mopey. It is a serious neurological condition that can leave a person stripped of much of their lives.

[JuniperLea]

33. I agree... but that wasn't the OP's question...

People do not intentionally become depressed. I know a lot of people who are afraid of success and unintentionally sabotage their changes at many things. What the OP is asking: are there people who intentionally bring hardship into their lives. Yes. Drama Queens... there are plenty of people who invite horrible things upon themselves intentionally. It's an illness too, no doubt, but it's entirely different than subconsciously inviting bad things, or suffering depression.


Edited because I can't spell or type worth pee pee ca ca tonight!!

:silly:

[Az]

35. Ah

I mistakenly assumed you were applying the term to all who behaved in self destructive manners. My mistake.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

28. That's not an explanation. You proferred an aweful, judgmental label.

"Drama Queens"???? Or "KINGS"????

I reckon you brought on every hard knock in your life, huh. Every aweful thing that happened to you is ALL your fault.

[JuniperLea]

45. I have no clue how you derived any of that from what I said!

No, I didn't bring on every hard knock I ever took. And not all people bring on every hard knock they ever take either! I never said any such thing and I resent like hell you trying to put those words in my mouth.

There are, whether you like it or not, some people (some people... read that over several times so you get a clue) who bring shit upon themselves purely for the purpose of having a pity party and attracting attention for themselves.

Some people bring bad things to themselves subconsciously out of illness. Some people are depressed and either can't bring themselves to be alert and ward off the bad things, or view everything in their lives as a downer because that is their perspective.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

54. I responded to your post,...a simple post judging everyone.

You ADJUDGED ALL as "drama queens", did you not?

I responded to your post.

[mondo joe]

75. How did you get from DOES ANYONE EVER INVITE HARDSHIP to EVERY AWFUL THING IN YOUR

LIFE IS YOUR FAULT?

Di you not see the distinction between ANYONE and EVER from EVERYONE and ALWAYS?

[porphyrian]

27. Yes.

Some people are masochists. Some people are suicides. There is even some evidence that everyone, to some degree, is self-destructive.

[BlooInBloo]

29. Yah, sometimes - duh....

... The only problem is that the question you asked bears little relation to, and sheds little light on, questions like "do intentionally choose to be poor?" or "did people intentionally choose to borrow money despite likely not being able to pay it back?"

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

36. I want to work from the basic notion of how much control we have over life,...

,...and expand from what folks believe about that.

Obviously, we do not control what we are born into,...do we?

I'm just asking us to examine the complexities of control over our lives.

That's all.

The neo-cons and neo-liberals ACT LIKE we have far more control over our lives than we realistically have.

Why can't we just,...admit the extent of our control over life,...and acknowledge what is necessary to,...be impactful for ALL OF OURSELVES?

I'm just trying to provoke thought.

[BlooInBloo]

40. Problem is, if at ANY point in the long and winding causal chain, you admit there is a choice...

... then all of your rhetorical work is for naught.

You can only "win" if you insist there is NO choice. But then, of course, you just look like an ass.

[Az]

46. The problem is realizing exactly what a choice is

And the truth is there is a lot less free will involved in a choice than we imagine. There is a lot going on in our brains long before thoughts arise from our conscience. And most of it is far removed from anything approaching a deliberative decision making process.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

51. ????

Wow!

I'm not being "rhetorical".

I'm not trying to "win".

I was only asking a basic question about the extent of control over our lives.

Maybe, you have an issue about that,...having nothing to do with me.

Aren't you fortunate that I'll NOT call you an "ass"!!!!

:hug:

I don't know what's making you so compative,...but, it's unecessary with me. Okay?

[Az]

53. Not sure he was trying to call you an ass

I think he was lambasting the idea that in a deterministic universe there is no such thing as free will. Since everything obeys the laws of physics then what you imagine is a choice is really something occurring in your brain that obeys the laws of physics. So he is saying that stating that there is no free will (via this argument) makes one look like an ass. Of course he does not take into consideration Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which would make it impossible for the individual to actually pierce this illusion and see the entirety of the process by which their choice was made. Thus this preserves the experience of freewill despite the universe being deterministic.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

58. Can't say I entirely understand your post but I acknowledge the limits of individual will,...

,...as MUST any rational person.

Even the aweful global dictators have limits over their will.

In a way, it's kind of silly to judge where any one of us stand.

We are being what we are meant to be in the larger scheme of things,...completely beyond us.

So, why not be comfortable in what we are?

[DU GrovelBot]

32. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.0
==================



This week is our third quarter 2007 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend on donations
from our members to cover our costs. Thank you so much for your support.

[camero]

37. No

Sometimes they are victims of greed and other times they are victims of their own greed. It's not intentional either way.

[badgerpup]

44. Yes, actually.

I think a lot of us know people who live from crisis to crisis...and while some of them are in the 'shit happens' category, a lot of them are the result of choices made.

Most of the people who exhibit this behavior/lifestyle have had some pretty bad things happen to them and as a result are carrying some heavy baggage.

Vastly oversimplyfying here, but they haven't come to terms with what's injured them- and doing so is going to be a painful, scary, very difficult process.
As long as they have a crisis going on, then they have something 'more important'...or distracting...that requires their time and energy, so the baggage has to stay in the closet 'for the time being'.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

55. Oh, yeah,....baggage. Wow. Let us psychoanalyze ourselves into believing,....

,...any human being intentionally suffers.

Let's do that,...and help those who are dependent upon our rationalizing away our struggle.

It's amazing just how far down the rabbit hole we have fallen.

Wow.

[badgerpup]

82. I did say I was oversimplyfying...

...and probably using improper terminology as well. :hi:

OK...I don't know what else to call it, if somebody has what is technically PTSD from being abused as a child, alcoholic/toxic family...the sort of thing that we read about and think that maybe some people shouldn't be allowed to have kids?

I don't know what else to call it...maybe 'issues'?
:shrug:

What I'm saying is that some people tend to have chaotic lives, with crisis after crisis...and there's a sort of method to the madness.
Not saying they hurt themselves on purpose, but that an emergent situation takes priority over a chronic one...and they live in such a manner that there are constantly emergent situations.

Does that make any sense?

[bonito]

47. Yes

Some caregivers will dive in head first at any cost to care for their loved ones.

[paulk]

50. not consciously

but I've known plenty of people who seem to do it

subconsciously?

by making the same mistakes over and over.

[AtomicKitten]

57. Usually those addicted to drama create their own drama.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

60. How do you know?

:shrug:

[AtomicKitten]

61. I went to college.

On edit: Hope that didn't sound snarky. I just meant that I studied that kind of stuff. I'm no expert. Please feel free to disregard my comment. No guarantees are given nor implied.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

63. Yes. That was "snarky". College does not make you a "greater" human being.

I will disregard your comment.

Will you apologize?

[AtomicKitten]

65. you completely misunderstood -

which is why I edited, but I still didn't make myself clear. My comment's genesis was my minor study in college. Also some personal relationships including one with a psychologist that gave me a window on some interesting human behavior.

In answer to your OP: Yes: it is a manifestation of a personality disorder.

That's it and all I meant to say.

On edit: And, of course, I apologize for not making myself clear and affecting you negatively in the process.

Super-secret double-edit: Just so you know, I've edited this about 10 times because I'm worried I've committed an actionable blunder in this response that isn't readily apparent to me. I apologize in advance if I have.

[AZBlue]

83. It's all good!

Actually, when I read your earlier posts's subject line I just thought you meant that you see a lot of drama queens in college. Which you do. Young people out on their own for the first time, faced with their "future" and lots of opportunity - weird sides to a person come out at that time. Maybe my dorm was just a magnet for it, but I'd estimate about 1/3 of the girls on my wing were drama queens. And, thankfully, I can say that ratio has not continued on in the people I've known in my post-college years.

[AtomicKitten]

87. Yes, college was most definitely -

ground zero for some, um, interesting people which can be pretty shocking if you've lived an up until then what would be considered sheltered life. Working with all kinds of people in political campaigns can be a really wonderful experience. It brings different people together for a common purpose. I've met some of my oldest friends working on campaigns year after year, campaign after campaign.

Drama doesn't do it for me anymore; maybe I'm getting old. Life is just too short sometimes to waste being all up in something 24/7.

Have a great weekend!

[mondo joe]

59. Yes, absolutely.

Some people bring hardship into their life through careless choices, or gambles that don't work out as hoped for.

Some people bring hardship into their life because it suits their worldview and character.

Some people bring hardship into their life temporarily, as a means to less hardship in the future.

There are other ways people bring hardship into their lives in ways that are not deliberate or intentional.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

62. Yes. I have noted your confidence in complete control over your life.

I don't mean that statement in a negative way.

You, apparently, have had the experiences to gain whatever wherewithal to survive this life.

You don't even know how lucky you are to be what you are,...leaving you with little left to acknowledge all those who aren't so lucky, who don't possess your resources.

AND, if someone like me pointed out your loss of respect for those who have less than you,...you'd prolly get really pissed-off, huh.

[mondo joe]

67. I fail to see how.

Yes, people do sometimes invite hardship into their lives.

People also experience hardship they did not invite.

I don't see how you conclude from that that I think I have complete control over my life.

I do feel confident in saying within most situations you will experience, you have some choices.

[EFerrari]

64. In general, no. I don't believe people intentionally look for

hardship. We seem to seek survival and at times, pleasure or at very least, to avoid pain or danger.

That doesn't mean we won't make bad choices sometimes that do wind up causing us harm.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

71. One post that reflects reality. One. Not enough to keep me posting here.

I had no idea this place had lost its sense of humanity.

Now, I know.

Progressive? Compassionate? Understanding? Problem-solving? All those dictates of "democracy" are not here.

Democratic Underground? I guess I don't know what that "label" means, anymore.

[EFerrari]

76. DU is like a faceted jewel that you keep turning to find the side

that best reflects the light at any given moment.

And taking breaks can be good for you. You already know that. :)

[mondo joe]

79. Your thread is an example of someone bringing hardship into their own life.

You set yourself up by asking a question that is bound to elicit precisely the reaction that will upset you - even if you need to mischaracterize those answers in order to feed your unhappiness.

[marions ghost]

97. I wouldn't base your assumption of DU "loss of humanity"

on the discussion here. That would be way too superficial.

Now you say you "know" this place has become sub-human in your eyes ????? :eyes: All you know is that your particular view may not fit perfectly with about 8 other people in a very casual chat session. That's all you know.

You also might consider the effects of being abused and downtrodden by those in government. That tends to break a bond of trust. That tends to make people who THOUGHT they had more control over their situation a bit more skeptical and lowers compassion levels. People who do believe in treating others fairly are still believers in theory but are angry at being taken advantage of. PRECISELY BECAUSE we are tolerant, generous, altruistic & all that good stuff. Y'know, Lucy and the football. You become more guarded.

I think you might be misinterpreting some of the responses here.

"Dictates of Democracy"---what's that?

[blondeatlast]

66. I know someone who is "happier" when they are miserable and I believe in them it has become

a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Health, employment, you name it.

[mondo joe]

73. I work with someone who cries so much I think she'll dehydrate from it.

She hates her job, she's unpleasant, she's miserable about everything but won't make a change.

(And I assure you, she could do so if she chose to.)

[blondeatlast]

89. My person doesn't cry, but otherwise that could be her.

And yes, the change would be so easy to make but either her asthma, "poverty", or some other trauma gets in the way. If a medical condition is in the news, she'll start having the sumptoms. I'm in a position to know that she soesn't tell her therapist everything, either...

She's relation and I love her, and when she's somewhat happy she's great fun, she really is, but that rarely happens anymore.

Mostly she just makes everyone miserable and God help the person that calls her out--that just feeds this bizarre fantasy even more.

[InvisibleTouch]

68. By "intentionally," do you mean "consciously"?

If you do mean consciously, with aforethought and premeditation, I tend to doubt it. But if unconsciously qualifies as well, then yes, absolutely. People re-enact their old traumas and bad relationships and self-sabotage themselves for a variety of reasons - because it feels familiar (if you grew up in a family where you were treated like dirt, chances are good that you'll seek out a mate who treats you like dirt - not because you necessarily like it, but because it's familiar), because they're stuck in old patterns of thinking and behavior, because they don't feel worthy of success or happiness for whatever reason. Just because it's unconscious doesn't make it any less intentional.

[Rosemary2205]

69. Yes I do

I've seen it happen by someone I know very well and suspected it with others. I doubt the reasons for it are the same with those who do this though.

For instance, the one I know well, has this overriding belief that he is doomed to failure and when faced with the opportunity to succeed he just plain freaks. Once he was offered a job making nearly double what he made previously - he went to work for 2 days and then went to lunch and never went back and went and got drunk instead.

2 others I suspect intentionally screw up their lives I get the feeling are more a case of seeking "pity" attention because they don't know anything else.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

70. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT,...LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND QUESTION,...

,...YOURSELF.

Do you want to bring hardship upon yourself?

[mondo joe]

72. Hm, I certainly HAVE brought some hardship upon myself.

I certainly have sabotaged myself in some ways.

I think I know more now for the experience and would do better in the same situation, but I can't deny that I have brought some hardship upon myself.

[EFerrari]

96. Me, too. I call it "marriage".

lol

[pitohui]

77. that's fairly arrogant to look in the mirror and assume everyone is like you

sure healthy animals avoid unnecessary expenditure of energy but the reality is that unhealthy animals exist

as i quoted upthread

life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me

look in the mirror and assume everybody is you printed on the same printing press and you're in for a rough time

give life credit for variation

[KittyWampus]

78. Absolutely. it's called. Evolution. We make problems & grow strong by solving them

[AZBlue]

84. Intentionally yes. Consciously? Not sure about that.

Drama queens and the melodramatic have been a common example here in this thread and I would agree that they fall into the "intentional" category. But, I'd also argue that it's not a conscious choice, at least for most of them. Their main intent is not the hardship itself but the ensuing pity, attention and turmoil. There are differing reasons for their behavior (a want of attention, the need for excitement, etc) but if you asked them if they brought this about intentionally, the majority would honestly and sincerely say they don't even know what you're talking about.

Edited for spelling.

[JanMichael]

85. My sister has. She's a wannabe hippie/5 acres and a goat....

...but is wholly incompetent and relies on my parents to keep this "independent" individual afloat in suburbia. A farm would be too much effort.

She has chosen poverty (with a parental safety net) when she could have a clean safe and decent life. She choses to live in a fake precarious situation so she can play adult and suck down as many mind altering substances as fiscally possible. All while being a shitty parent along with her equally shitty husband.

Basically a trustafarian who comes from a non-trust middle class family with limited means.

[BamaGirl]

86. I have intentionally made decisions I knew would make my life harder...

What are you getting at?

I went in the Army when I knew my family would hate it and not speak to me.

I married a soldier knowing I'd be broke as hell and my family wouldn't speak to me. :P

I had three kids and didn't work and was broke as hell and didn't CARE what anyone thought cause I've been raising my own kids.

I've cussed out many teachers and many administrators. The one that stands out in my mind is the one who had the abortion is evil and Bush is God converstation in my daughter's classroom. He's never made THAT mistake again.

I sold my first book. And, it's smut, man. Pure smut. But I like it and I had fun writing it and I've actually made money off of it.

In all of these instances I knew my choices were definitely NOT going to make my life easy. Some made me broke. Some made me a social outcast. You make choices. You live with them the best you can. :shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

88. Yes, often...

In the service of other people, or of a religion or a cause, or their own benefits sometime in the future. Or sometimes, more unhealthily, because they feel that they deserve punishment for something.

However, that does not mean that most hardships are voluntarily chosen; or that if people are poor, ill, or experiencing some other misfortune, they must have done something to bring it on themselves!

[woo me with science]

90. Of course.

Being a victim or a martyr can be very gratifying for some people with personality problems.

[LWolf]

92. Yes. For many reasons.

Explain? Hardship isn't isolated; it isn't a phenomenon unto itself. It is interconnected with the rest of life, and inviting any part of life into your own also invites hardship.

One example:

Children are a hardship. Yes, they can be a joy as well, but the moment you decide to have a child, you've invited hardship into your life. Hardship that will be reflected in lack of time, lack of sleep, a heavily impacted budget, changes in lifestyle, an overwhelming burden of responsibility, and risk of loss. Joy doesn't come by itself, either.

Inviting hardship can be a conscious choice, or an unconscious, unthinking, reactive emotional thing.

There are plenty of other examples.

[Time for change]

94. Yes

Sometimes hardship is necessary in order to accomplish something important.

Just as one example, Lincoln brought hardship into his life intentionally when he ran for and got elected president. He again did so when he decided to lead his country into war. He took very few precautions against assassination. I believe that in doing that he was trying to set an example, kind of like saying that what he was doing was very important and worth risking his life for.

[stranger81]

100. Definitely . . . . people with severe depression

may intentionally fail to prevent hardships from befalling them -- it's like a kind of paralyzing apathy. Not judging this phenomenon, as I don't think those who find themselves in this cycle can necessarily help themselves out of it, but it happens.