We need to get control of the message or at least end Republican control of it

[dsc]

To give you one example. Social Security.

We all know Social Security will be gone by the time people in their 20's retire. Too bad we are all wrong. Social Security, even under the most pessimitic senarios, will pay no less than 70% of what it promises. Would that be great? No. Is it people getting no money? No. But it gets more dishonest than that.

When these projections are made, there are three sets of assumptions being used. One is pessimistic, one is middle and one is optimistic. They usually use the middle numbers for their projections but then use the optimistic ones for their stock projections. It matters a great deal which numbers are used. To see that here is an example. Say you have a $1000 that you want to invest. One pays 2%, one 3% and one 4%. You invest for 20 years. The first investment pays $1485.95. The second $1806.11. The third invest pays $2191.12. They are projecting over a period of 50 or more years. Even at 20 years a small change in assumptions makes a huge difference. In reality the numbers they use assume the economy will grow at a smaller rate than it has since the 1930's. But when they look at the stocks they use the average rate of return since the 1930's. The stock market totally tanked during the last time growth was so slow.

In short they are using flawed assumptions, even if their assumptions were true they over state the damage to Social Security, and they use a different, better set of assumptions for their alternative. Yet, they have managed to convince the young that Social Security is a mirage that won't be their when they get old. We can't win the debate if we let lies control it.

[Blue_In_AK]

1. Al Franken's book, "The Truth (with Jokes)"

explains this whole social security nonissue very well.

[dsc]

2. Yes it does

The only flaw I see in his presentation is that he doesn't mention the percentage of money people would get even under the worst senario.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. You're right on all counts--both about controlling the message

and about the SS numbers. Also, they never mention the fact that SS is a built-in disability insurance system, which private investments in the stock market don't compare to. If you get disabled young, you get disability payments from SS. If you had no SS and just the private investments you had accumulated, you would be far worse off.

[USA_1]

4. The Solution ...

... has been presented on this forum by yours truly on more than enough occasions: each and every one of you should be posting the truth about Bush and Republican failings on web sites where the Pukes are predominant such as in the Real Cities network. Unfortunately, far too many of you are too afraid of confronting the Pukes with the truth and you persist on posting here and agreeing with each other. Such weakness fails to win over the independent voters who read the angry lies written by Pukesters on Real Cities and become convinced that it is the truth because nobody from this forum has the guts to answer the lies.

One thing's for sure -- you will never get control of the message by cowardly staying here and posting the same thing over and over again to the same audience.

You will get that control by boldly going where so few libs dare to go -- on conservative web sites. Do so now, or face the prospect of another Puke in the White House in 2008.

[snot]

5. YES. I've posted dozens

if not hundreds of times asking folks to ACT in support of pending legislation to roll back media consolidation and reinstate the Fairness Doctrine.

I never get any replies. I hope it's not because no one actually does anything about it! Pls, someone, tell me -- do people even know about this leg.?? Have y'all written your reps., and you're just not mentioning it??

Because you know the media is going to continue to savage all Dems who have any real prospects, and savage them over trivia, while continuing the lap-dog routine with any Repub candidate who hasn't already self-destructed.

[USA_1]

6. True, But ...

... that should not stop any Dem from posting on reich wing forums such as those on Real Cities. There are a great many independent voters who log on to those sites and all they see is right wing propaganda which goes undenied by Dems. When the Indys see this they assume that if it is undenied, then it must be true and this is what gets so many votes for the GOPukes.

As an indy, I am not optimistic that the Dems will win back the White House in 2008. The reason being because I see the same pattern today as I saw in the lead up to the 2000 and 2004 elections.