what do barack obama, John Edwards,the pope, james dobson, & jerry falwell have in common?

[msongs]

as so many DUers are swooning over the new messiah come to lead the human race out of bondage and back to the one and only true church, consider this -

as obama says: "...YOU need to embrace Christ precisely because YOU have sins to wash away..."

Full text of his YOU NEED TO EMBRACE CHRIST speech here: http://www.alternet.org/story/38260/

Personally I have my own spiritual beliefs and do not require YOU to embrace them, and you are welcome to have yours so long as you keep it to yourself, unlike your buddy Obama. I am not interested in a president who tells me I am no good unless I practice his or her religion.

BTW, I wonder if John Edwards has ever read the part of the bible about rich men and going to heaven?

Msongs
www.msongs.com

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Ouch

our presidents have no business talking in specifics about faith. If they wish to allude to a Higher Power, as Lincoln often did in his speeches, that may be considered ok (though I doubt the atheists around here would like it).

Like you, I have my faith, and celebrate that you have yours, even though it may be (and probably is) different from mine. I respect those who have come to the conclusion that faith is illusionary; that is their path in life, and who am I to judge? But I have a BIG problem with anyone who decides they are the only ones right when it comes to spiritual matters, and that everyone must think their way or they are deluded.

[MH1]

7. Please read it in context.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=181814&mesg_id=181884

I think the o.p. is misleading. Probably not intentionally - I am sure msongs just read it differently than I did - but I strongly disagree with her conclusion about what Obama was saying.

[Dhalgren]

2. We sometimes disagree about things, Msongs, but on this I agree

with you completely. If a politician holds one or another mythology to be true and real, fine, but don't say that we "have" to believe it, too. If someone wants to be a preacher or evangelist, good for them, but don't be an evangelist while you try to be a president and don't be surprised if I go in another direction...

[MH1]

6. Damn, he didn't SAY that.

This is bullshit. (And I can't believe I'm defending any '08 candidate at this point, but this is BULLSHIT).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=181814&mesg_id=181884

:banghead:

So, you don't like someone talking about their Christian faith to a gathering of Christians? Well, I think the rest of the country feels differently about it. I hope so, because I for one am damned sure not going to choose my candidate based on whether or not they choose to speak of their faith.

[Warpy]

10. it's time for a joke

A good and kind man who had never turned down anyone who sought his help died and went into the afterlife. Another introduced himself, "I'm the guardian spirit. What was your religion?"

Well, the man thought for a bit, then he said, "I don't really know. I was too busy in life to think much about it."

The guardian replied, "This might be a bit of a problem. You see, we give people from all religions the afterlife their religion has promised them. We really don't know where you might be happiest. Perhaps we might take a look at all of them and let you decide."

So they went from Paradise to Heaven to Happy Hunting Ground, all the variations, one after another. Finally they came to the last, and the guardian cautioned, "Here is the last. Please don't tell anyone here about the others."

The man went in and returned, asking the guardian, "They seemed like nice enough people. Why couldn't I tell them about the others?"

The guardian replied, "Those are the Christians. Their heaven lies in thinking they are the only ones here."

Get it?

[MH1]

12. No, I don't.

:shrug:

Seems pretty broad brush to me.

There are an awful lot of variations on Christianity, and not all of them are exclusive. (although it is probably fair and accurate to say the majority are).

Either way, it isn't a very funny joke.

[Warpy]

18. Really? Most people find it hilarious

even a strict Shi'a Muslim in Azerbaijan I once told it to. He asked my permission to tell it featuring his own faith.

I gladly gave it to him.

It was one of my mother's favorite jokes.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. I get it

in fact, my Methodist brother told it to me.

[Dhalgren]

13. He wasn't just speaking of his faith. He said that that YOU have sinned

and that YOU MUST come to Jesus. That is me, you, kids, old people, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, everyone. That is not the same as talking about how your faith in this or that has sustained you or how much you cherish your beliefs or whatever. He was making a statement regarding what he holds to be true about me and every other person on earth - that is not the same.

[MH1]

15. I just read it differently.

I'm not going to hang around and belabor it....in my opinion and experience, it would be disingenuous of 98% of Americans to interpret that as if they have never themselves used the word "you" in that self-referential way (any grammar experts want to help me out with the technical term?), but it is also true that not everyone posting here was brought up on American English. I guess it is possible to take the "you" literally when reading it, if one isn't used to that kind of sentence construction.

Either way, I have other things I need to be doing. I just wanted to point out what I think is the more accurate reading of his words.

Y'all have fun arguing about it. :hi:

[Dhalgren]

17. You bet! And thanks!

:hi:

[MH1]

3. um....Barack was speaking to a Christian conference, right? And, he was talking about HIMSELF.

Context of "you must embrace" quote:

And perhaps it was out of this intimate knowledge of hardship, the grounding of faith in struggle, that the church offered me a second insight: that faith doesn't mean that you don't have doubts. You need to come to church precisely because you are of this world, not apart from it; you need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away -- because you are human and need an ally in your difficult journey.

To me, he is relating what he heard in his own head, that called him to embrace Christ himself. The "you" is rhetorical and is not specifically aimed at YOU. And especially not YOU if you weren't even in the audience.

And the fact that he is saying this at a Christian conference (if I am right about that), makes it seem a stretch to complain about it.

I'm not picking sides among official '08 candidates, because I don't see any of them measuring up to my choice, who isn't running. But I don't want to see something like this taken out of context on ANY of them. (Hey, that's the game Rove and Hillary play, and I'd rather not play it myself.)

[dysfunctional press]

4. self-delete.

nt

[knitter4democracy]

5. I thought you were going to say that they were all against

gay marriage. I'm not sure Obama is, though. I know the others are.

I used to be for civil unions until I really thought it through. Marriage is a sacrament in our church, and technically, Hubby and I could've gotten married without the certificate from the state. In the eyes of the church, we'd still be married, though, since the church says that it's in charge of that sacrament. On the other hand, we could've had a civil ceremony, and most people would still think we were married. If we changed churches, no one would be the wiser, either, and just ask for a copy of the marriage certificate (in case we needed to baptize our kids there or something--otherwise, they wouldn't).

The state can define marriage however it wants. So can the various faiths. They don't all have to agree, either. If a church wants to say that LGBT couples aren't married, they (unfortunately) have that right. Just as the Roman Catholic Church doesn't accept civil divorce, they wouldn't have to accept civil marriage. It doesn't mean the state has to listen to them, though, and it seems to be in the state's best interest to have couples married for legal and tax purposes, which is all the state really cares about. Why can't the state define marriage as the people will it to?

Sorry for the rant. I'm getting more angry all the time about this. It's time to end the second-class citizenship for our LGBT brothers and sisters.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

23. I agree with you

If a church doesn't believe in gay marriage, then the couple doesn't have to have a church wedding there. I believe that some years ago there were some Southern branches of churches that refused to marry a black and a white person. They had to go before a judge, and they were still legally married, no matter what that church said.

[Benhurst]

8. Oh, ye of little faith! Anyone who fails to recognize the divinity of

the Great Leprechaun is going to hell and certainly won't get my vote.

[Katherine Brengle]

9. Taking these comments out of context and using them to smear him... sounds very Rethug to me. nt

[berni_mccoy]

11. Lowest of Lows, MSONGS! The YOU he was referencing is the Church speaking to OBAMA

Here's the entire Quote: "And perhaps it was out of this intimate knowledge of hardship, the grounding of faith in struggle, that the church offered me a second insight: that faith doesn't mean that you don't have doubts. You <as in Obama himslef> need to come to church precisely because you are of this world, not apart from it; you need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away -- because you are human and need an ally in your difficult journey."

[Dhalgren]

16. So Obama thinks that only he has sinned? I didn't realize he thought this.

I thought he was speaking in terms of what was for everyone. Wow, I feel sorry for him, because I am pretty sure his religion says all have sinned. Someone needs to tell him it is not just him - that's too big a load for anyone to carry....

[Connie_Corleone]

14. He was talking to a Christian audience.

And he was also speaking about himself.

Taking words out of context is what the right wing does. We shouldn't do it to our own Democrats.

[goclark]

19. God Bless America

Chaplain in Congress, having Prayer Breakfast in the WH etc.

Obama did not install those traditions, they are of long standing.

IMO, we could do without the God Bless and the Chaplain but that is not going to happen I don't think.

I am Christian and if he wants to address a Christian gathering,that is his right.


The beauty of Obama is that he does not put any other religion down, nor does he try to get anyone else to be a Christian. He is a Christian and he goes to Church.

Maybe he should be a Muslim? Or not have a religion at all? Or keep his religion a secret?

I say we attempt to get over it.
I believe and have said it many times, RepubliCONS do not own Jesus.
The RepubliCONS have turned Christianity around and put their name on it.
IMO, Clinton never denied his faith, nor should he.
Obama should not deny his faith either.

To continue to bash Christianity as Democrats now and BEG all of us to happily go to the polls and vote for someone that never mentions a religious word is not fair.

[saltpoint]

20. D-minus.

[hopein08]

22. I've noticed Obama's preachiness even in speeches to Christian groups and its kinda bugging me. n/t

[Kerry fan]

24. Very petty, IMO.

IMO, Obama, in this speech, showed respect for ALL religions. I believe his primary purpose is to not allow right wingnuts to claim a monopoly on religion and God.

Remember, that was a big factor in getting George W. Bush elected.

IMO, you are not doing the Democratic party, as a whole, any favor in insisting that our candidates never speak about their religion and allow the American voters to continue believing the myth that "Liberals are Godless".

Think about it.

[Mass]

25. Some democrats may be godless (whatever that means) - so what?

Why should that be a problem?

I have no problem with what Obama said because of who he was speaking to. However, I would be just a happy to support an atheist candidate. I just know there is NO way he would be elected in this country.

[ray of light]

26. some Republicans are 'godless' too.

But the problem remains that the liberal side is smeared by the conservative side as being 'godless'.

I only object to what Obama said in the context that I know many, many religious liberals and at the time that he said it, he ignored a whole group who act on faith and who are democrats. (In other words, he promoted the r-winged spin.)

[Kerry fan]

30. I'm just saying.

If we want our candidate to WIN, he must appeal to a broad spectrum of voters, not just a handful.

Sure, I could vote for an athiest, too. That makes 2 votes. He probably will need 60 MILLION or more.

[keepCAblue]

27. Overall, a good speech. But one glaring omission...

Obama makes repeated references to his pro-choice stance and offers a reasonable dialog reconciling his position with his faith and that of the audience he's addressing. He, however, glaringly avoids stating directly his position on same-sex marriage.

Has Obama ever, for the record, stated his position on SSM, other than to say he opposes a constitutional amendment? (Opposing a constitutional amendment says nothing of one's position on SSM).

[Dracos]

28. First I would not

put Edwards & Obama in the same catagory with Dobson & Falwell and proably not the Pope either.
Second I agree with MH1, msongs has not quoted Obamas statements correctly.

[Katherine Brengle]

29. Are threads deliberately misrepresenting a Dem pres candidate allowed?

Seriously. This is a badly designed smear and I would think that wouldn't be allowed here...

:puke: