VA Bill to Punish "Forced" Miscarriages ---------

[Katherine Brengle]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/05/AR2007020501507.html

<snip>

RICHMOND, Feb. 5 -- The Virginia House of Delegates gave tentative approval Monday to a bill to make it a felony for a woman to cause her own miscarriage but rejected a proposal to give fertilized eggs and fetuses the "right to enjoyment of life."

With the legislative session nearing its midpoint, the House considered a half-dozen bills aimed at restricting abortion or cracking down on people who harm fetuses.

In a flurry of votes, the House gave preliminary approved to a bill that would require doctors to give women the option of viewing an ultrasound before an abortion. It also agreed to require doctors to give women information about how anesthesia can be provided to a fetus during the procedure.

Two bills that would make it a crime to force a miscarriage received preliminary approval in the House. Under one, a person other than the mother could be charged with involuntary manslaughter for causing a miscarriage. Under the other, a woman who causes her own miscarriage could be charged with a felony and face up to 10 years in prison. The legislation would not outlaw the morning-after pill.

</snip> More at the link posted up top.

This was posted in the Choice forum, but I think this kind of legislation needs more attention. Can you say "slippery slope" boys and girls?

For a considerably more disturbing read (lengthy but worthwhile) - and a glimpse into how one step can lead to another and another until things are violently out of hand - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/09/magazine/09abortion.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=d855d7f018cc8c56&ex=1302235200&partner=rssuserland&emc=rssmost

[Nikki Stone1]

1. Force a miscarriage?

Why haven't I heard from Planned Parenthood about this?

[Katherine Brengle]

3. It's not law yet, but I hadn't heard about it either

until I saw the thread in Choice.

By "forced" miscarriage I am assuming they mean nonmedically produced. But the slippery slope of course is that this could lead to any and all miscarriages being treated as potential crimes...

[HockeyMom]

2. Better not get the Flu,

drink too much alcohol or coffee, have a death in the family, lose your job, take other prescribed meds or OTC remedies, etc, etc, not to mention BIRTH CONTROL devices.

Fertilized eggs? Submit your tampons to the miscarriage police? GET REAL.

[Katherine Brengle]

4. Exactly!

[Nikki Stone1]

5. The anti-choice lobby is incredibly sneaky

This is just another door

[demnan]

6. Women of Virginia take note

Your fetus now has more rights than you do. If you voted Republican in the last state election this is the consequence. If you voted Democratic and your husband voted Republican, he has no respect for you.

[MountainLaurel]

17. Amen to that

Shit like this, and that lovely anti-gay screed last fall, is why my husband won't be applying to any law schools in VA.

[Mz Pip]

7. How often does this happen??

Seems pretty unlikely that a woman would pass up getting a legal abortion only to throw herself down the stairs a week before the baby is due. Seems like these legislators are spending a lot of time coming up with laws that might affect one person every 5 years.

I don't have a problem with criminal charges being filed on someone who pushes a woman 9 months pregnant down the stairs and causing her to lose the baby.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Katherine Brengle]

9. I don't think you understand what "forced m/c" means...

There are a variety of ways in which to induce a miscarriage - not the least of which are drug/alcohol abuse (which personally I have a problem with during pregnancy), use of certain OTC and Rx meds that can cause it, herbal concoctions, etc.

There are two problems here:

1) Abortion is still legal for the most part in this country - all a "forced m/c" is is a nonmedically induced abortion.

2) This leaves way too much space for the government to further intrude into the uterus - first of all, any m/c could be treated as a potential crime scene. Second, it opens the door for antiabortion legislation.

[sandnsea]

40. Is your uterus a crime scene???

I bet there's a good campaign in that image. I don't think I've ever heard it termed that way before. Maybe that'd wake women up.

[jmowreader]

52. Well, you know how ditzy these women can be

"Oh my GOD!!! I forgot to get that abortion I was going to! It was right on my shopping list between 'go to the liquor store' and 'pick up the dry cleaning.' But I screwed up and spent the money on having my nails done instead of having my baby killed. And it's due next week! So I guess I'll just slam the door against my belly until I have a miscarriage!"

Three points must be made here:

Point One: everything above this line was sarcasm on my part.

Point Two: there are WAY too many people out there who believe women actually think that way!

and Point Three: not all of the people covered by Point Two are men.

Think of this law as a latter-day version of the 18th Amendment--the one that created Prohibition. It didn't work at all without the Volstead Act, which defined "intoxicating" as any beverage with more than one-half percent alcohol. In this case, the Virginia legislature is attempting to outlaw "self-induced miscarriages." It only takes an act of the Virginia legislature declaring an abortion to be a "self-induced miscarriage" to completely ban abortion in Virginia--and, given the composition of the current Supreme Court, there's about a 60-percent chance that such a law would be upheld.

The question is whether anyone in Virginia would have the moral courage to write a latter-day Blaine Act. This Act ended Prohibition by finding that beer with an alcohol content of no more than 3.2 percent was "nonintoxicating" and therefore allowed to be manufactured, transported and sold under the provisions of the 18th Amendment. (In case you're wondering how they came up with 3.2% as the proper amount of alcohol in beer...well, now you know.)

[TomClash]

8. Absurd

Will the VA Legislature be arresting the father too? If he approves of the forced miscarriage isn't that "conspiracy to force a miscarriage?"

[Katherine Brengle]

10. If you read the second link, in El Salvador

a woman who is found to have had an abortion can be imprisoned, the person(s) who performed the abortion can be imprisoned, AND anyone who is found to have "helped" her in any way can be imprisoned.

It's not far-fetched, with the way the political winds have been blowing in this country, to see laws like this showing up not too far down the road...

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Right. They've got the forensic vagina inspectors in El Salvador.

Coming soon to a Red State near you.

[TomClash]

31. Doctors too

. . . who failed to prevent the miscarriage.

And then the attorneys who represent them.

And then . . .

[Homer Wells]

51. Taking this rationale to an absurdist conclusion..

What with the attitude of imprisoning anyone who strays from the vast number of laws these people seem hell-bent on enacting, I wonder how many people will be left outside the prison system to administer to the majority who will be under lock and key .:think: :spank:

[ldf]

11. and just how long

before the "morning after" pill is deemed a "miscarriage inducer"?

afterall, the egg IS fertilized. but you are preventing it from attaching, therefore it is flushed out. it doesn't take much of a stretch to make a fertilized egg that can't attach, and is flushed out, the same us one that was, but detached and flushed out...

more than 50% of the population is female.

crap like this could easily be taken care of.

too bad.

so many things could be taken care if enough left leaning people cared enough to vote.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. What about late periods? How late is late?

This is ridiculous. I can't imagine having a tubal pregnancy and waiting for the tube to rupture to operate. A lot of women with low thyroid are subfertile and may have a period that is a week or two late.

I once had an ovarian cyst rupture and i went to the emergency room. It was the most horrible pain I have ever had in my life, with the exception of labor pains that never went anywhere and I had a C-section.

[HockeyMom]

32. 10 days

I was on the progestin only mini pill. I had very light periods; the main reason why my doctor proscribed it. Well, I got my period and 10 days later still had it, along with severE pains down on my left side. I won't go into detail, but the hospital I had to go to made me wait 24 hours just for a sonogram. My tube burst. "We don't do abortions here."

As the mother of a then 3 year old daughter, tell me, in the grand scheme of things, which is more important to you? Your life, your 3 year old child ("Mommy, are you going to DIE?"), or a 5 week old embryo? I can tell you from my own experience, it isn't the 5 week old embryo.

[eridani]

44. That used to be the norm all over the US before 1973

My next door neighbor bled to death while they were waiting around for evidence that the fetus had been expelled.

[Shallah Kali]

47. I know a lady who almost died during two miscarriages while they waited for the fetus to come out

she was a bleeder. One time a doctor helped knowing he was risking jail. She later had several children and now has many grandchildren and great-grandchildren none of whom would probably would not exist if not for that doctor.

[etherealtruth]

13. Sure ...

....and smoking increases the risk for miscarriage ... certain lifestyle and work choices may increase the likelihood of miscarriage.

Let's lock all pregnant women up ... Do not forget some of these things can be done prior to a woman becoming pregnant ... OK, OK, better solution : lets legislate all the choices out of a woman, in her reproductive years, life.

:sarcasm:

[Katherine Brengle]

14. That's exactly what they want to do.

Antichoice advocates use abortion and related issues to push a much larger agenda focused on controlling women.

[etherealtruth]

15. I know

It really is solely about undermining the freedom and autonomy of women ... period.

[Katherine Brengle]

16. Yep.

[MountainLaurel]

18. Thanks, KB

For bringing this out into GD.

:hi:

[Katherine Brengle]

19. NP, after seeing your post in Choice, I was surprised not to have seen it here.

[Clark2008]

20. So... if a woman is in a stressful job, will her employer be

required to fire her?

What if she has odd periods and continues to smoke or drink for a couple of months, not knowing she is pregnant, and has a miscarriage.

This is fucking ridiculous!!

Thanks for posting.

[Katherine Brengle]

21. Right?

There are so many things wrong with this I can't even THINK of them all yet.

[Quantess]

22. This is so ridiculous.

And unenforceable in reality. Why are lawmakers such nitwits?

[countingbluecars]

23. I live in Virginia,

yet somehow I missed this.

Hopefully this bill will be treated with the same outrage and controversy as the bill in 2005 that would have made it mandatory to report a miscarriage to local police within 12 hours. If I remember correctly the senator who proposed that bill withdrew it because of the reaction generated by the blogosphere.

[Katherine Brengle]

26. One can only hope. It's f*ed up that it ever made it this far. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Is anyone surprised?

How long is it going to take before that nonsense about "we don't want to prosecute women who have abortions- only doctors" goes out the window?

[Katherine Brengle]

27. Check out the 2nd link from the OP --

a glimpse of the possible future...

[Warren DeMontague]

28. Right. The forensic vagina inspectors of El Salvador. I read that article the first time around.

Seriously frightening. (Thanks, Reagan!) That's what happens when you let the church and a bunch of busybody control freaks convinced that they're doing "the right thing" run other people's personal lives.

Hopefully, our party will take a solid, across-the-board stand for the rights of people to make their own choices, for consenting adults to be left the hell alone about how they entertain themselves in and out of their bedrooms, for marriage equality, and absolutely, unapologetically for women to have control over their own reproductive systems.

Well past time for the Bill of Rights (particularly #1 and #4) to be reinstated, for us to get rid of these crazy ideas about how the government knows better than individuals what they should be able to do with their own bodies.

[JHB]

29. "...would not outlaw the morning after pill". And if you believe that...

...I've got some tropical ocean front property near Denver to sell you.

It may not technically outlaw it, you can be certain it'll be used to choke off its use little by little.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. And the HLA plank in the Republican platform wouldn't just outlaw the Morning after pill

it would outlaw ALL oral contraceptives. Once they declare, by fiat, a fertilized egg as a "human being" with 14th amendment rights, fertility treatments would be outlawed, pill taking women would be hauled off to jail with pot smoking cancer grannies for "possession", and having an IUD would get you a concealed murder weapon charge.

Not so farfetched.

[Katherine Brengle]

33. quick self-kick bc people need to know this

[Hippo_Tron]

34. Governor Kaine better have his veto pen ready

The VA legislature is controlled by the GOP last time I checked

[Katherine Brengle]

35. Not even remotely surprising.

[piedmont]

36. Does this have anything to do with the VA woman who shot herself to kill her full-term fetus?

This sounds like another piece-o-shit reactionary law designed mainly just to get re-election votes.

[alittlelark]

37. WTF is wrong w/ these 'people'

Where are they sniffin' + WHY?????/

[girl gone mad]

38. 10 years in prison?

So, let me get this stratight. An 18 year old causes her own miscarriage because she feels she is too you and irresponsible to raise a child. So, now she gets llocked up behind bars for 10 of her most fertile reproductive years? The ten years when she is supposed to be meeting her husband and starting a family? How many babies could she have been making in those years? What kind of crazy, backwards anti-life shit is that?

[truedelphi]

39. How utterly horrendously AWFUL:

At the age of twenty, I began to hemorrhage.

I had just found out that afternoon that I was six to seven weeks pregnant.

It was three o'clock in the morning. I was taken by police car (I called them - they were free, unlike an ambulance) to a nearby hospital, where the ER doctor would not admit me because at that time in Illinois abortion was illegal and he assumed I had caused the miscarriage. (If he had admitted me, and someone found out and could prove it was an abortion,the hospital could lose its license.) This young doctor sent me home to die.

Next day a neighbor stopped by and visited me. I was very out of it, having lost so much blood I was somewhat blue looking.

She got me into her hospital immediately.

Once you have all these rules and regulations, medicine starts to operate under a culture of fear, rather than a culture of scientific knowledge.

Having been raised Catholic, I had been adamantly opposed to abortion, but this one experience changed me for good.

[eridani]

45. What year was this?

I grew up in Illinois and lost a neighbor to a similar situation in 1958.

[truedelphi]

53. It happened in February 1972 -hardly the dark ages

The irony was, if I had wanted an abortion, my mother (who hated my first husband, despite his being this total sweetie of a man) would have gladly put me on a plane to NYC and paid for a legal abortion, and I would have had top notch treatment there...

Sorry about your neighbor. I had no idea how crummy things get when doctors aren't allowed to do medicine but must do public policy instead.

[eridani]

54. Any time before 1973 was the dark ages

--at least for women. My miscarriages were after 1973, so I'm part of that significant downtick in maternal deaths post 1973. People tend not to notice it so much, because the drop in deaths from complications of abortion was so much larger.

[yellerpup]

41. Better start building more prisons.

Asshats. :kick:

[nonconformist]

42. Ugh, this is so ridiculous

This is one of those "precedent-setting bills".

[Virginia Dare]

43. This is in anticipation of making abortion illegal...

they're getting ahead of the game. Forced miscarriages were quite common before abortion became widely safe and legal..:cry:

[Dracos]

46. Why even have such a law ?

why would a woman want to cause her own miscarriage it doesn't make sense if she wanted to abort the pregnancy there are several legal ways to do so.

[Shallah Kali]

48. Does VA provide free medical care to low income pregant women?

Do they have plenty of women's shelters, properly enforce restraining orders, and throw the book at males who beat their pregnant girlfriends and wives. The leading cause of death in pregnant women is murder and physical abuse increases the chance of miscarriage. What about lead, merucry and other toxins in our air, water, and food that are even more damaging to a fetus than to adults. What has VA done about these?

You see I would actually believe these pro-pregnancy people really gave a d#%n about the resulting babies if they did something, ANYTHING to help women and children be safe and healthy.

[Mad_Dem_X]

49. Goddamn!

There are no words...I am just way too angry right now...:nuke:

[Coexist]

50. this makes me ill. eom

[Thothmes]

55. Punish Forced Miscarriages

The incident that has caused the Virginia Legislature to look at such law occurred about a year ago in the Tidewater area of Virginia. A young woman, late in her third trimester (about 2 weeks away from deliver) intentionally shot herself in the abdomen, killing the fetus. The local DA tried to prosecute under existing Virginia law but none of the existing statutes applied to her actions. It is my understanding that Planned Parenthood officials were consulted on the wording of this law so as to not interfere with legal abortion.