Your thoughts about the confederate flag

[jcrew2001]

I'm from mass so I don't have any favortism towards the confederate flag. I was reading about this article on FR regarding these 2 high school girls who sued so they can bring dixie-flag purses to school, which seems a bit ridiculous and a waste of taxpayer money on the judicial system. But everyone at FR seemed to support this lawsuit and this attack of Political correctness.

I'm just wondering what everyone here thinks about the dixie flag and whether it should be allowed at school or anywhere?

Although the dixie flag may symbolize southern heritage it also symbolizes the confederacy's support for the state's right to have slavery. Also, the flag is blatantly un-patriotic towards america. Its as if those people who like the dixie flag support souther secession and balkanization. Instead of supporting one nation, they only support the South.

Coming from the North, I just don't understand the hypocracy, I know things move slower down there, but it seems like they are just resistant to any change at all.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

1. Old.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

9. Old thoughts

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

12. Wrong old thoughts

[SharonAnn]

105. "The past isn't over. It isn't even past."

[XemaSab]

2. I'm proud that our state flag says "California Republic"

so is that also promoting Balkanization? :shrug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. No, because California

never went into revolt against the other states, nor did it ever promote the supremacy of state's rights, unlike those states of the South that formed the Confederacy. The "Republic" was really in name only, anyway.

[XemaSab]

38. California has gone against the federal government many times

But it's usually on more liberal issues, such as medical pot and CO2 emissions. :P

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

41. My point is

it never seceded; the whole point of the "California Republic" was to get the territory in to the US and away from Mexico.

[XemaSab]

61. We didn't secede from Mexico?

:shrug:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

64. The point of the Mexican War

was to obtain more territory that could become slave states. Texas became independent of Mexico in part because the Mexican government wished to abolish slavery and Texans wished to keep their slaves.

[Booster]

89. We're thinking about revolting against the other states.

:dilemma:

[Why Syzygy]

99. No one alive today

was in the Confederacy. There are children and grandchildren who obviously identify with their history. I don't think the flag represents slavery. Some may. The civil war was about more.

Texas is a Republic also. I can't recall ever seeing a Confederate flag in real life.
I can understand why both sides might be upset about it.
I cannot really take sides on this issue.

[redwitch]

3. While not on a par with the swastika for me it is damn close.

I'm not from the south and I find the stars and bars offensive.

[Why Syzygy]

102. If the situation

for the flag is anything like the swastika, that's sad. Both are SYMBOLS. The meanings have been altered through association.

OP states that displaying the flag constitutes ignorance. Is it not a bit ignorant to attach so much emotion to an inanimate object?
It is a colored cloth.

Does it make a bit more sense to observe the participants and discern accordingly, rather than jump to conclusions based on a symbol? Is that better than judging based on race, creed, geneder, etc.?
How?

As progressives, can we not objectify an OBJECT and seek to humanize Humanity?

~ snip ~

The swastika (from Sanskrit svástika स्वास्तिक ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, in either left-facing or right-facing direction. The term is derived from Sanskrit Svasti meaning-well being, the Thai greeting sawasdee has the same implication.

It is a widely-used sacred symbol in Dharmic religions (Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism). Hindus often decorate the Swastika with a dot in each quadrant. In India, it is common enough to be a part of several Devanagari fonts. It is also a symbol in the modern unicode. It is often imprinted on religious texts, marriage invitations etc. It is used to mark religious flags in Jainism and to mark Buddhist temples in Asia.

Archaeological evidence of swastika shaped ornaments goes back to the Neolithic. During 1920-1945, the Swastika was used as a Nazi symbol, and has become a controversial symbol as a consequence. In the Western world, it is thus most widely known and used as a symbol of Nazism (the Hakenkreuz, "hook-cross") and this political association has partly eclipsed its historical status in the West.

more ~
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[redwitch]

108. I know that the Nazis took the swastika for their symbol but did not

create it. I still find it hideous. And the confederate flag ( the one I see on pick up trucks inupstate NY) says racism to me. It offends me because of what it represents.

[Lurking Dem]

121. The swastika was forever perverted.

It now cannot be used without being associated with that which perverted it. That is why American Indians stopped using it.

The Confederate flag has suffered from the same fate.

[Lurking Dem]

122. I am very proud of my Southern heritage.

I even have copies of the documents given my family by the Union allowing them to have their farmland back since they spent the war giving up Confederate positions to the Union army.

Southern "heritage" is not necessarily monolithic and many Southerners feel no pride at all in the Confederate flag.

[Clark2008]

4. I give it no power, so it has none.

It's a piece of fabric with far too much power given to it. It's an artifact.

P.S. We're not resistant to change. We just don't like "Yankees" coming down here to tell us how to do things. I contend that the Confederate flag wouldn't be on any statehouse if people from up North hadn't raised such a stink and let the voters in each state decide. Once the stink was raised, then Southerners wanted to do the exact opposite of what Northerners wanted them to do. Childish, I'm sure, but I understand why.

[Greyhound]

18. My natural instinct is to agree with you, but I have to acquiesce to the feelings

of those that suffered under it, and understand how they are offended by it. Besides, as someone else stated earlier, it's just a flag and its absence has no effect at all. By the same token, I do have to believe that those that are such strong advocates of displaying it that they are willing to make a court case out of it, are indeed, using it as a means to promote their bigotry.

[Clark2008]

29. Except that no one alive today suffered under it.

I think it's a little silly to display it, but if I think if I give it the power to offend me, then it gives the person displaying it a power they certainly shouldn't have.

BTW, displaying the Confederate flag as much as it is now is a fairly recent phenomenon in the South. I didn't see it growing up at all. I think a lot of it has to do with how the Republicans have up-played the "Northern concern" about our having it on a couple of state flags and made it into an issue. That or people just liked "The Dukes of Hazzard." :)

[AspenRose]

50. No one alive whose ancestors fought under it are benefitting from it, either.

And I beg to differ about no one alive today has suffered under it. There have been plenty of lynchings and survivors of beatings that have happened in the Jim Crow south (up until the 60s and early 70s) where that flag has been prominately displayed. That sounds like suffering to me.

And it's a flag of treason. I don't understand people who are proud of a flag that 1) defends treason and 2) represents the losing side, as if that's something to be proud of.

I also don't understand why a person in a pickup truck in New Hampshire would display it (I've seen it in Concord), unless they are telegraphing their sympathies with white supremacists.

[Greyhound]

67. I don't find the swastika particularly offensive either, but I can see that it does

upset many good people for very good reasons too. I just think that those that insist on displaying those things do so in order to offend others.

[jcrew2001]

19. anti-yankees

But doesn't that mentality depict a country that is still divided and that the southerners continue to support secession and are un-patriotic?

[Clark2008]

26. The nation is divided.

But Southerners don't support secession - we just don't like being told what to do.

See, for decades, now, the North has treated the South as some sort of red-headed step-child: condescending to us and believing we're all stupid. Like many on this board who think we all drive around with Rebel Flags on our cars, that we ALL vote Republican and, I don't know, have no teeth or shoes and drink moonshine. The North needs to get over its bias and the South does, too.

If the North wants to the South to stop stomping it's feet, then it needs to stop directing its actions.

P.S. I'm certainly not anti-Northerner, btw. My husband is one of "them thar damn Yankees" from up Boston way... ;) (Hell, my husband is originally from Africa - which should really throw the stereotypers for a loop!)

[Vanje]

78. I see

Its those baad ol northerners that make people display the symbol of slavery and segregation.

[MonkeyFunk]

5. It's a sign

of racism and treason, and people should stop fetishizing it.

[havocmom]

6. See it around here sometimes, and I am pretty far north, almost to Canada

To me, display of that flag up in the far north, is a white supremacy thing and it concerns me a great deal. Most of the people I know who display it are from other places, but mostly northern places.

[tbyg52]

7. If people think it doesn't stand for racism

then they are fooling themselves. I don't want to see it anywhere, anytime.

[demnan]

8. I think now it symbolizes racism

You can be proud of southern heritage without being racist.

At the time, the Confederate flag symbolized the Civil War, a time when our country was divided. Anyone who celebrates this is really a traitor to our country. VA never did this with all it's involvement with the Civil War, it was too wise having lost the war to flame the fires. Further south, they didn't suffer as much in some states, and the want to ignorantly trumpet what was really their military loss reigns free now that ignorant people have such access through the INTERNET to each other.

[Clark2008]

17. See - I can see the treason aspect, but, considering that

most of the people who fought for the Confederacy weren't wealthy enough to own slaves, I don't buy into the racism, completely.

Some people down here fly it because they know it drives Northerners nuts... pure and simple. :hi:

[tbyg52]

25. Some Southerners too...

...I'm one of them. :hi:

[Clark2008]

31. People just like being mean... they really do.

They fly it because they KNOW it riles people up - they're really not racist and really don't know that much historically, but they know that the Confederate Flag gets people's dander up and they just want to push buttons.

I honestly believe that!

[Vanje]

86. they" really dont know that much, historically"

"they're really not racist and really don't know that much historically"

So theyre not racist. They're just ignorant.
I wouldnt be proud of that.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. Which flag are you talking about?

The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, seen below:


was NOT the official flag of the Confederacy, although it was incorporated into the canton of one of the later versions of the official flag. However, it is primarily THIS flag which is flown and which causes the controversy. The reason is that Nathan Bedford Forrest took the Battle Flag to use as the banner of the KKK. So this particular flag does have a racist history, whereas the official flag does not. We Yankees living down South have no problems with the official flag being used to symbolize Southern heritage, but do have a BIG problem with a symbol long associated with the KKK being used as such. Most Southerners I know are not racists, and when the history of the flags is shown to them, they agree with me.

[Clark2008]

36. I know that's not the official flag. My father was a Confederate

historian. But, for the purposes of this discussion, I was referring to that battle flag because that's what most people assume is the official flag of the Confederacy.

See my post down below yours regarding the real flag of the Confederacy.

[Vanje]

80. No one who fought for the confederacy

....currently flys the confederate flag.
You may disagree that Present day rebel flag flyers are proud to be racists.
But This much is indisputable. They are NOT black.
African Americans do NOT celebrate their Southern heritage by flying the Rebel flag.

[Vanje]

84. how many black Southerners fly the rebel flag?

Heritage, my ass

[William Bloode]

123. My friend T-Bone does.

He's as black as they come, and flies on on his truck. He's not the only one i know of either.

[Lost-in-FL]

10. Well...

If you saw a Dixie flag sticker with the message "We should have picked our own cotton" like I saw one a few weeks ago, I would think of it as a racist symbol.

[Lost-in-FL]

20. I found a picture of that same sticker

Here

?v=0

[Glorfindel]

11. As a lifelong southerner, I think it should be folded and put away

It no longer represents anything real, and if it reminds just one American citizen of a racist past, common courtesy should dictate its avoidance. There are places, such as museums, where its display is appropriate. Those girls probably just want to be obnoxious, like a skinhead with a swastika tattoo.

[philosophie_en_rose]

13. Waive whatever flag you want, as long as others can still burn it.

I have no issue whatsoever with people that choose to identify themselves as racist fucktards.

[peacebird]

14. My concern is not with the flag, but with the package of racism and hatred that frequently goes

hand in hand with those that fight to display it. I grew up in the south, I saw Jim Crow signs and KKK signs, and I firmly believe the people that display the confed flag and scream loudly for the right to display it, do so out of fear and racism. They are frightened by the fact that whites will not be the majority forever, they are frightened by the incoming latino population and mostly they feel a knee-jerk *need* to be better than someone else. It is easier to villify people based on skin color or religion or sexuality than to accept your own lot in life is largely due to your own decisions.

Easier to hate than to reform yourself. Oh - and for what it is worth - most KKK types consider themselves to be good Christians.

Don't even try to wrap your mind around that one.... I tried to figure it out for years, and the only "justification" I could come up with for them is from one of the popular bumperstickers down here.... "Not Perfect, Just FORGIVEN"

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

15. They lost. It is not the American flag. May as well hang up the Mexican, Indian, or Polish flag...

and that would be just as wrong. Those three countries are not America either.

The confederates lost. To quote the freepers, "Get over it".

And it's not resistant to change. It's treason.

:popcorn:

[Lost-in-FL]

28. You didn't forget Poland!!!

:rofl: :rofl:

Now, now... Mexicans, Indians or Polish Americans aren't advocating for the destruction of the Union. Just saying.

[Clark2008]

33. See - that right there is why people fly it.

If you wouldn't rub it in their faces, they wouldn't even pay attention to the thing.

Hell, I don't fly that artifact, but your words got my Southern dander up. ;)

[Bucky]

92. But it's true. They kicked our asses.

Oh, I'm glad of it now. But my grandpa still told me stories that his grandpa told him. And they weren't very nice stories. Of course back in the late 1800s no southerners EVER flew a Confederate flag. By god, they knew better.

[Lex]

16. Now it mostly is the symbol of "I am a redneck for sure"

at least as far as I can tell.

I've seen them sported here and there all over the US and that seems to be what it symbolizes now days.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

21. There are Confederate flags and there are Confederate flags

The Stars and Bars was the official banner of the Confederacy. See below:



The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, sometimes misnamed the Stars and Bars was used by one of the Southern armies during the Civil War, not all of them. Armies in the West didn't use it; it only came into general use AFTER the Civil War, and in relation to the formation of the KKK. Therefore, imho, to display the Battle Flag and say it merely stands for "Southern heritage" is disengenius at best. If someone wishes to honor their Southern heritage, then fly the official flag of the Confederacy, not a flag used for intimidation and hatred.

That being said, as a descendant of brave Union soldiers who gave their health and wealth to the cause of Union, I do not understand why anyone would wish to honor those who wanted to destroy our nation.

[Clark2008]

35. And you know something, if you carried that flag on a purse

to a dance, no one would say a word because 90 percent of the country doesn't know that that flag is, which was my whole point. People give entirely too much power to the Confederate battle flag of NOVA.

:hi:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

39. Which goes directly to the motivation for carrying the flag

it is for racist purposes. Don't know about you, but the Stars and Bars, not the KKK banner, is flown on the courthouse lawn at the Confederate memorial in Boone County AR. In fact, it is the ONLY Confederate banner I see flown by individuals around here, too. Perhaps the people in this part of Arkansas know a little more about history--and don't want to be associated with the Klan group in Zinc.

[Clark2008]

44. Same here in Tennessee.

My father actually has that flag up in his den. People come in and ask him all the time what country that flag represents. * shakes head *

In any case, yes, the real Confederate flag adorns our memorials here, too. For example: http://www.knoxvillecmh.org/


P.S. I don't think those girls wanted to be racist, really, either. I think they've just not been taught any better.

[jcrew2001]

57. the kkk

That's a good point that the dixie flag is associated with the KKK, more than the south.

If southerners really wanted to support the confederacy they should wear the official confederate flag, instead of the KKK flag.

I'm sure if the schools and courts saw tha the dixie flag is a symbol of the KKK, then they will surely outlaw it from school grounds.

Also, I think the Dixie flag is popular is because of tv shows like the dukes of hazzard and Lynard skynard. Dumb people are just copying what they see.

[Bucky]

96. "do not understand why anyone would honor those who wanted to destroy our nation"

So you won't be coming to the grand opening of the George Bush library then?

[Warren DeMontague]

22. If they'd let kids wear t-shirts with big fucking pot leaves on them

I would say the Confederate Flag purses shouldn't be a problem. But I bet they don't let kids wear shirts with pot leaves on them. And I bet the courts wouldn't let kids defend wearing that kind of thing as "free speech".

So kids in public schools don't have absolute free speech rights- and as such, if the school says they can't bring confederate flag purses, that's the way it goes.

[knight_of_the_star]

82. They don't

Not until you get to college, in public high schools anywhere in this country students rights to free speech exist at the whim of the administration.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. Exactly.

Schools can enforce dress codes and ban certain symbols, etc. That's been repeatedly upheld. So I don't know why the Confederate Flag should be exempt from this.

[beyurslf]

23. It is a symbol of racism, hatred, and treason. There is nothing glorious

about the confederacy. There is nothing to honor. Those who joined that cause fought against their own country (treason) and against its citizens (acts of terrorism). They joined that cause to protect their right to own human beings. It's disgusting that anyone today would try to defend it. \

And if the South didn't want the North to tell them what to do, maybe they shouldn't have waited 100 years to let everyone vote and go to school---except even then the North had to come down and make them do it.

[Clark2008]

42. This is why Southerners dislike Yankees - in general.

This condescending attitude you just displayed.

There are many things in Southern history to be proud of - there are many glorious things. But you want to advocate the rather old and worn stereotype that Northerners are somehow "better" and have to "make" Southerners do things. Not true.

You may believe the flag is disgusting and that's your right, but, please, don't go around name-calling the whole of the South. Surely you know that not all Southerners in 1860 supported slavery, even if they supported states rights. Surely you know that not all Southerners supported segregation - a good many of them are the people who fought to desegregate in the first place. Surely you know that not all Southerners vote Republican.

If you would stop with your stereotypes for a few minutes, then maybe Southerners would stop trying to hold onto something in their past for the simple fact that they know it infuriates you.

I hope that made sense.

[AbbyR]

63. I was going to jump in and defend you

but you don't need it. Southern stereotypes infuriate me. I marched for civil rights. As far as I know, I have never done anything racist. But I love the South - I was born here. And anyone who says that only the South had to be forced to do the right thing has only to look at the riots in the north.

I am tired of being considered a stupid redneck toothless fool just because I have a southern accent. I once would have argued for the right to fly the Confederate battle flag, just because it is a part of Southern heritage and I am a history nut. After much reading here, I decided that it honestly doesn't matter what it means to me, because if it hurts people, I don't want to use it. (By the way, I have never owned one.) But my ideas have changed because of what I've read here. But please STOP thinking of us all as dumb racist pigs. We're not.

[Clark2008]

68. I think you meant to comment to the post ahead of mine.

I certainly don't think we're all dumb racist pigs!! I was arguing the same thing you were. :hi:

[AbbyR]

70. I'm sorry I wasn't clear

I was agreeing with you and wanted to add to your points, but I figured you didn't need it. You and I were saying about the same thing, but you were doing it so much better.

Abby, very liberal, born in Virginia and living in Arkansas - and I love the South (except in mid-summer)

[Clark2008]

72. Understood.

And I also love the South except for late July and August. Too blasted humid!! :hug:

[TN al]

73. I'm sorry Clark but none of it makes sense...

I agree that it is a symbol of hatred and prejudice and people displaying the flag are displaying those emotions as well. I also teach my students about how the real confederate veterans laughed at the display of that flag. They said that it looked like you were hanging your suspenders out to dry which it does if you hang it lengthwise. I wish I could document that for you but I guess you will have to trust me on that one. But Clark it is not the northerners whose first thought is to the civil war. I had a new students parent eye me suspiciously when she met me and say "you aren't from around here, are you." I told her "No, but I'm from Canada. We didn't have a dog in that fight." That was good enough for her and we got along fine after that.

[johnaries]

77. That and "Reconstruction".

Although I know many Northerners "said" they wanted to help restore the South, the ones that actually came down here wanted to rape it.

carpetbaggers, epithet used in the South after the Civil War to describe Northerners who went to the South during Reconstruction to make money. Although regarded as transients because of the carpetbags in which they carried their possessions (hence the name carpetbaggers), most intended to settle in the South and take advantage of speculative and commercial opportunities there. With the support of the black vote the carpetbaggers played an important role in the Republican state governments. The corrupt activities of some made the term carpetbagger synonymous with any outsider who meddles in an area's political affairs for his own benefit.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0810564.html

Although I myself growing up always saw the Confederate Flag as a sign as Southern Pride, I know that it offends many people including many of my close friends, and out of respect for them I will never fly it.

[Vanje]

81. Name one

"There are many things in Southern history to be proud of - there are many glorious things."

Name one

[Bucky]

98. Willie Nelson

Jazz, Scott Joplin, Creole cooking, air conditioning, Al Hirt, O. Henry, William Faulkener...

Should I continue?

[tbyg52]

118. The civil rights movement. nt

[BlackVelvet04]

109. Bravo....

and thank you.

I always see posts about how someone offended one group or another but nobody seems to have any problem in stereotyping and denigrating southerners. Yet, we don't start threads complaining about being offended because we're friggin' used to it. Southerners have been portrayed as ignorant, rascist, inbred. toothless morons ever since I can remember. For the most part liberals hate southerners until it's time to ask for our vote.

[jody]

27. Slavery existed 85 years under the U.S. flag but only 4 years under the Confederate flag. n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. Disengenuous

In that it was primarily the Southern states that owned slaves from the start of our country. More US Presidents came from Southern states than any other region during the time from 1789-1860. The Missouri Compromise, the Mexican War, and the Compromise of 1850 all happened because of wishing to appease the slaveholding interests. That the Southern states finally decided they were not going to be able to preserve their "peculiar institution" and so seceded does not mean that they had nothing to do with the government and policies of the US before they did.

[XemaSab]

45. It's also a bit disingenuous to point fingers at the South for slavery

when the South had a rural economy built and structured on latter-day serfdom, unlike the north. Slaves were there to pick the cotton, which they didn't grow up north.

It's more about economics than racism.

On edit: I'm not in favor of slavery here, but I think these bash-the-south threads tend to turn a blind cheek to the legacies of racism and near-slavery in the non-slave states.

[Clark2008]

48. It always was.

Economics... or more specifically, the right of the wealthy to attain more wealth... has been the start of nearly every war in which America has been involved, save one (the Revolutionary War) for sure and possibly three, dependent upon your views of the first two world wars.

[Gormy Cuss]

62. And the South had disproportionate political clout because of the 3/5ths rule.

The slaves states weren't interested in giving up that political power either.

Northern industrial states relied on largely illiterate European laborers to run their mills and factories by the mid-19th century. Those workers couldn't vote unless they became citizens, as most of them eventually did. Had the free states not abolished the purchase of people, perhaps they would have had economies more dependent on slaves too.

[Bucky]

94. Actually slavery wouldn't have worked in an industrial setting

The competition for skilled labor would have prevented it working out, even if the north didn't have an instinctive cultural distaste for human bondage.

[Gormy Cuss]

100. Ultimately, true.

But in the mid-century the New England mill towns had plenty of wholly unskilled farmers and laborers from Europe and French Canada who did the lugging and digging and other jobs that didn't require skills. Many of the skilled jobs were done by immigrants from Euro countries with similar industries. Much of the unskilled work could have been performed by slaves if the free states had that resource.

I think that the reasons that the free states didn't continue slavery are complex. There were many who thought there was nothing wrong with it, even in Yankeedom, and there were slaves prior to the abolition in most of the colonial states, just not many of them. What I find difficult to accept is the separating of slavery from economics as a reason for the Civil War. The economy of the South was based on the cheap supply of labor and the lock on that labor through ownership. It's hard to divorce one from the other. From what I have read increasing political clout was more important to the Northerners than freeing the slaves; emancipation was a means to that end.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

66. More than economics

in that poor whites were also given a substandard place, with no good options of "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps". It was the aristocracy that made sure there were few free public schools, and it was the aristocracy that fostered racism to keep the poor whites quiet--their lot wasn't so great, but they always knew they were "better" than blacks. It was the arrogant attitude of the privledged class--an attitude that my husband said he saw when he went to military school in the South in the 60s....and he didn't like it one bit. BTW, he's a sixth generation Texan, just in case you thought it was a case of Yankee prejudice.

Edited to add because I just thought of it:
The soil of the South was wearing out. Cotton is very draining of nutrients. If it hadn't been for soil scientists like G.W. Carver, it is likely that the economy of the South was doomed; cotton fields would have become wastelands, and not too long in the future. This was one of the main reasons Southerners were for conquering new lands--so they could transplant their crops, their slaves, and their way of life to a place where the soil wasn't worn out.

[jody]

65. I believe ship owners from the North brought slaves to the South.n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

43. Only because the Confederacy lost. n/t

[cgrindley]

30. Racist but in a really pathetic sort of way

all those south will rise again people are just sad hicks.

[Clark2008]

69. Not really.

Think about it: how many presidents in the past 40 years have been from the South? Most of them.

The South HAS risen again, but I don't think that's what some folks necessarily had in mind.

[cgrindley]

90. Not by my count

The last 40 years:

Bush Jr: Connecticut
Clinton: Arkansas
Bush Sr: Mass
Reagan: Illinois
Carter: Georgia
Ford: Nebraska
Nixon: California

That's 12 years of Southerners vs 28 years of northerners. Bush, like the rest of his family, are New Englanders regardless of what they'd like people to believe. His silly Texan act is just that, an act.

[ngant17]

34. people who identify with that flag

do not understand how capitalism and slavery both benefitted each other. Might not there be any reason why African-Americans do not proudly display a Confederate flag in the front yard of their homes? They are Southerners, too.

The 'stars and bars' is a offensive symbol against black Americans. Not unlike the Nazi flag is with persons of Jewish background. It is a symbol for Southern white terrorism and the KKK. I don't like to see it.

I don't have any idea what Southern culture or heritage has to do with the Dixie flag. I don't even know what Southern culture is. I've lived in Florida all my life. I'm technically a 'cracker' but I don't like that word, either. Southern culture is all about the bourgeoisie (descendents of slaveholders) enslaving the proletariat. It exists today in 'right to work' laws which are written into Southern state constitutions, such as Florida.

I've met union members, true working class people in Florida, who will display the Confederate flag on their trucks or t-shirts. I think these people have a more advanced social consciousness, a class consciousness. I think we could invent a new flag to fly, one that would be better than that, that could remind of us our roots and heritage. It's embarrassing for me to see the American flag in conflicts in the world everywhere. The American flag is becoming an ugly symbol in the world these days. Like the Dixie flag is here.

[zanne]

40. I wonder why the South NEEDS the Confederate flag.

I have never in my life seen a pickup truck with a UNION flag on it! The North doesn't need a flag--why does the South?

[Lex]

56. The vast majority of "the South" doesn't see a "NEED" for

the Confederate flag.

[Clark2008]

71. I see union flags on cars all the time...

This is the Union flag:



Of course, it didn't have as many stars back then, but you get my point.

[Crabby Appleton]

106. That's the flag of the US of A

[theHandpuppet]

46. AGAIN??

Is this the weekly Confederate flag thread?

[MedleyMisty]

47. I'm from the South

And I'd say you have issues with painting every single person who lives here as an ignorant racist.

As for what I think about the confederate flag - if other people want to wave it around, fine. It just lets me know who to avoid.

I think some people really don't think about racism when they think about it. They think about plantations and hoop skirts and mint juleps and that kind of thing and they get all misty-eyed for the past and they never actually think about all the ugly stuff. They're ignorant, but harmless.

Then of course you have the people who do think about the ugly stuff and revel in it. They're in the minority here. Once, the KKK wanted to have a rally near my hometown. They were allowed, in the name of free speech. But there was a far bigger crowd protesting them.

Down the road from where I live now, there's the Levine Museum of the New South. Go there, and you'll find exhibits showing the truth of the past and deploring it. In Greensboro, the diner that was the setting for a sit-in is now a historical landmark and the people who participated in the sit-in are honored.

We're not resistant to change, and there is still plenty of hatred to be found in all parts of this nation and in fact all over the world. We don't have the only claim on it, and some people are mighty hypocritical.

And as far as I know, the entire human species is slow to change. Like I said, there's hatred here but hatred is a disease that all of humanity shares, not just the bit of it that lives in the southern US.

[Lex]

59. Thank you. That is how I feel too.

I agree with you and feel it is ignorant for people to think all of the South wants to fly the friggin' Confederate flag.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

74. As I said in another post,

there is an active KKK group in Boone County AR, and they use their racist flag. I think it is for this reason that the Sons of Confederate Veterans memorial on the courthouse square flies the Stars and Bars, as do certain individuals in their yards. Around here at least, the majority of people I know are embarrassed that the KKK even has an active group near here; I certainly have never met anyone who said they supported it.

I know that most Southerners are intelligent, good folks. I try not to make stereotypes. But seeing as the good Southern folks in Boone County felt the need to make the distinction so that it is clear where they stand on racism, I think paying attention to which flag is flown obviously IS important--and not just to Yankees.

[Raine]

49. It's treasonist nt

[salin]

51. Says a lot about those who chose to display it.

"I don't care if this is offensive, heck I MEAN to be offensive - so there! Nya! Oh - and by the way if you call me on it - I will be loud and rude and whine that I am being attacked for showing my "heritage"".

It is a symbol of hate or if not hate - exclusive (prejudiced) superiority. Racial and/or regional (e.g. north vs south). If schools want to endorse hate messages than sure - let kids where anything - but that would include swastikas, neonazi symbols, gang rivalry messages, etc.

You asked - that is my opinion. But the anti-PC crowd might feel differently. :shrug:

[BulletproofLandshark]

52. The Confederate flag is a traitor's flag

And that's hard for me to say, being born and raised in Virginia

[sniffa]

53. i Love the fLag

it reminds me of the the dukes of hazard which i watched reLigiousLy as a kid.

anyone against the fLag shouLd just get over it and stop being over sensitive.

[frogcycle]

54. I'm from the South

as were my ancestors back several generations. My Dad used to rail against anyone with a confederate flag bumper sticker, or license plate frame, or whatever. Said "that is the flag of an avowed enemy of the United States and should not be displayed, any more than the rising sun or nazi flags"

[AspenRose]

58. God bless your dad.

:hug:

[pitohui]

55. no "gang" symbols of any kind are allowed in public schools

it isn't just the confederate flag, so focusing on it is a bullshit way of pretending only white chicks carrying confederate flag handbags are being somehow discriminated against

in some schools even rosaries are forbidden, if a gang is using the rosaries to mark members

any kind of "gang" insignia that excludes others on the basis of race, religion, gang membership is forbidden in many schools and that is as it should be

the only purpose of carrying the confederate flag in school is to mark yourself as a member of a group that does not associate with blacks or other "out" groups

if you want to carry a confederate flag or wear a head scarf or tattoo yourself with gang tattoos, fine, do it on your own time, but it don't fly at school

in school everyone is entitled to belong, everyone is entitled to feel safe

the girls who think they are special and the rules don't apply to THEM because someone died and made them jesus, they can all go straight to hell

and that's what i think of the confederate flag

the only reason it's flown is to make others feel bad, decent people don't do this, if you are full of hate do it on your own time

[seabeyond]

60. live in the panhandle of texas and see it a lot. it is to send a message

of igotry in my opinion. an in your face telling me i cant be a bigot. they will say tey are doing it in honor of the south and i dont believe it for one minute. my far right fox watchin brother had one on his vehicle. he told his daughter it was to honor the south. the asshole was raised in fuckin calif. it is all about the south (repug) fighting the north (looney liberals and all their values).... in bigotry. my brother has no connection or ties to the south to honor

[Igel]

75. That flag means as many things as the

people flying it intend. Many consider it there heritage; some like to be rebels against authority; some are white supremacists, or at least racists. Some romanticize the past. Others just fly it because their friends did, or because they hate the North. Lots of reasons to fly it.

I'd think myself silly if I assumed everybody flying it did so because they romanticized the superficial gentility among the upper echelon of Southern society.

Intent matters. A lot of people think the swastika is only a Nazi symbol; they're wrong, of course. The stars and bars, in exactly the same way, is only a symbol of racism.

[salin]

115. "A lot of people think the swastika is only a Nazi symbol; they're wrong, of course."...

Okay what else does it mean? Why use a symbol associated with Nazis if one has a different message (pick a different symbol - or be stuck with the association by choice).

So in the middle or rural Indiana - a Union state - what would you guess the message?

And just when is a swastika a 'cool' symbol per "intent".?

[Zhade]

76. Racism. That's the "heritage' of the South that the flag represents.

NT!

[RamboLiberal]

79. There's only a couple of places I think it belongs

in museums as part of civil war history or in history books. In civil war reenactments or films about the civil war or in the context of our racist history.

Otherwise it should be put away. In schools I think it should be banned as part of the dress code. Employers as well should be able to ban it inside the workplace (there was a local lawsuit by a guy who had it on his lunch box). However if some yahoo wants to display it otherwise while I think he is an a**hole that is his right I believe.

I went to a Kenny Chesney concert 2 summers back in Pittsburgh, PA - not a fan but cousins had a ticket left over. Amazed me the numbers of stars n' bars flying in the parking lot and on the clothing. Maybe it would be nice of the country stars would speak out against this racist symbol.

How do you all feel about the playing of Dixie? Big stink here in Pittsburgh area a couple of years ago about some high school bands playing it as part of halftime shows. Funny, we grew up singing Dixie among other "Americana" songs in grade school early 60's. But I can understand now that only in certain limited historical contexts that song should not be played and can be divisive. How do the rest of you feel about the song?

[Vanje]

83. Harmless bit of fabric, celebrating heritage

like the Nazi flag.
Swastika-wearers arent racist. They're just celebrating their rich Ayrian heritage.

[Lurking Dem]

85. I have to look at my neighbor's every day.

And I often harbor fantasies about raising a rainbow flag right underneath it. Or an ACLU shirt.

Alas he has motion detector lights on his property.


The most hilarious thing I've seen here was at my son's high school where a kid had a Stars and Bars Secede! sticker on his pick up truck - right next to his United We Stand sticker.

I'm sure the irony was lost on him.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

87. It should only be allowed on toilet paper. n/t

[Bucky]

91. I have a big confederate flag in my classroom at school.

Of course it's from a student's art project in my history class.

[rasputin1952]

93. When I was in the Army, I was stationed at Ft. Gordon, Ft. Lee, &

numerous other posts across the country, as well as outside this country. In every assignment that I ever had, I had many Southerners in my unit(s). They fought as bravely as any other soldier, the did what they had to do, and I befriended many of them, (My point of enlistment was NYC, so if these people were going to despise anyone, I figured I was gonna be it).

Many of these soldiers kept the Stars and Bars in their personal belongings, but no one ever said it should take the place of the Stars and Stripes. Just as with state flags, people take pride in their heritage and their history. The CW was a horrible war, but one thing it did was to cement the nation together as a nation comprised of states with a Federal gov't as the final authority. The vast majority of Southerners accept this, and I know of none that would trade off this nation for anything else.

I have no problem w/the Confederate Flag, as long as no one hoists it above the Stars and Stripes. Like any other banner, it depends on how you look at it, if you view it as a banner of hate, that is what it will be; if you view it as a symbol of history and pride, it will appear as such. Many brave Americans died under both banners, but they were all Americans, North and South. While slavery breathed its last, it took many years to do away with Jim Crow laws, and other indignities. I should also say that Reconstruction took far too long and exploited virtually all of the Southerners. I wonder if Booth had any idea that he would be reviled and help to destroy the South even further when he stepped into the box in Ford's Theater; if Lincoln would have lived, things would have been far different during the immediate antebellum period.

[grytpype]

95. I think that displaying the Confederate flag is a pretty clear expression of racism.

Everyone knows what it means, especially the people who want to display that flag. If you don't want to be thought of as a racist, don't display that flag.

Display of the Confederate flag came into vogue during the Civil Rights era, the same people who wanted Earl Warren dead for integrating their schools waved that flag around.

[JVS]

97. It makes me think that Sherman needed more time to do his work

[mitchum]

101. Loser rag

[BlooInBloo]

103. It's the racist flag of another country...

... Everybody knows it, many, belonging to a certain group, lie about it.

[BlackVelvet04]

104. Being a southerner

I once had a running argument with a Black, New York liberal. I convinced him that the confederate flag stood for honoring those who fought and died for what they perceived as the defense of their home. He convinced me that it was offensive. We each completely saw each other's point of view and switched our position. Later I saw him argue in defense of the flag.

I still feel that the confederate flag is not necessarily racist in nature but I know it offends others and it's not important enough to me to want to defend it. (I've never owned or flown a confederate flag.)

Having said all of that, it's supposed to be a free country and I think everyone has a right to freedom of speech. We don't have a right to not be offended.

[blogslut]

107. I live where people fly the southern cross proudly.

That would be the Panhandle of Texas. While Texas was technically part of the Confederacy, there really isn't the cultural attachment to that flag as there is in other states. When I see that flag on the back of a truck or hanging in the window (as it is - one block down my street) I think to myself:

"A racist lives there."

[Edweird]

110. I'm from the south. I grew up in Memphis.

According to my paternal Grandmother, Nathan Bedford Forrest is a cousin of some sort of mine. Whether that is true or not, my fathers side of the family was very involved in the civil war and very proud of their southern heritage. They were not "white trash" or "rednecks". They were just country folk. Nobody attended any Klan rallies. Nobody in my immediate family flew any confederate flags. We owned some, but they were in the closet with the civil war rifles and swords. Relics. I don't agree with slavery. I think racism is wrong.(for the record, my wife is a very dark central american) I don't like the klan, and the klan wouldn't like me. But these broad generalisations about "the south this" and "rednecks that" kinda gets me a little riled up. Every race/nationality/religion/ethnic group at some time has screwed up.bad. If every time you brought up your paritcular group everybody dirted on you for something you had no part of, you'd get a little irritated too. Yes, the south lost. Yes, they were wrong. But how does that make YOU so superior to ME?

[BlooInBloo]

111. Wah.

[Edweird]

113. I got your wah.

Hangin.

[Marrah_G]

112. Strangely enough, since you mentioned being from Mass

I grew up in Walpole Mass.... home of the Walpole Rebels...fight song was Dixie and yes there was a confederate flag. Always seemed so odd for an old suburb of Boston.

[UTUSN]

114. The "dixie flag" is the SLAVE FLAG - same as NAZI FLAG - that is ALL!!1

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2005/08/minutemen-home-for-extremists_08.html

[conscious evolution]

116. It's time to steal it from the rednecks.

Turn it into a symbol of something else.
What? I don't know.
How? I don't know.

Currently the rebel flag is being used as a symbol representing racism,bigotry and intolerance.Every person I I have met lately who supports that flag is without a doubt a racist bigot.
I know.
I hear it all the time.They always assume that since I am a fellow southern boy like they are that I think in lockstep with them on it.
When I call them on it half of them flat out admit it.
The other half tries to use that states rights and respect for southern culture bullshit.That argument is so easily refuted they invariably start a diatribe against blacks that just boggles my mind sometimes.


Whats weird is I can remember a brief period when the flag wasn't being used by some white southern males as a symbol to represent their racism.They used it as a symbol of resistance to authority in general.A sort of southern twist to the revolutionary spirit of the sixties.Tom Petty and Lynyrd Skynnyrd,early in their careers,used it in such a fashion.Unfortunately,Skynnyrd appears to have drank the koo laid these days in regards to the flag.Too bad.They could have been a powerful voice for sanity here in the south.

[k_jerome]

117. it is the symbol of bigots, used mostly in the South...

but flown by bigots in every part of the country.

[salin]

119. in pockets of areas of Indiana

confederate flags are flown proudly. Certainly not in a "solidarity of southern heritage" spirit (the common excuse of high profile souterners.) Yep - "bigots in every part of the ocuntry". Have to agree.

[k_jerome]

120. exactly, i've seen it everywhere...

i'm pretty sure those using it were not celebrating their southern heritage.

[William Bloode]

124. I fly one.

I also have one tattooed on my arm. I'm no white supremicist, hell i ain't even white. it's heritage for me for sure. My family lost all their land, had many of the women raped, houses burned down, great, great, great grandfather killed, plus many other relatives. I can go to the old town cemetary and find no less than 15 men related to my faimly who died fighting the war

No one in my family owned slaves. Those in my family fought to protect their homes and families from the Northern invaders. Yes the North burned houses, and raped women, stole livestock, food or anything they wanted. But i guess even poor non slave owners deserved this treatment aye?