They are not "contractors" they are mercenaries. Yes mercenaries are

[alfredo]

contractors, but they are not roofers, they are not plumbers, they are mercenaries.

We need to change the dialog. Using "contractors" is using the terminology of the authoritarians. From now on use "mercenary or mercenaries" when speaking of these private soldiers in Iraq. We need to control the language, not the ruling class.

[daninthemoon]

1. 180,000 "contractors", 170,000 US troops. Unimaginable. I don't

know if anyone, even lord cheney knows the exact breakdown of who these people are and what they are doing in our name. How did we ever come to this? How will it end?

[haele]

19. How many of these contractors are 1) "security forces" ;

or 2) American support contractors (engineers, medical, logicians, grunt workers who shouldn't be there because we should have been hiring locals to drive trucks and do construction, etc).
Blackwater, Custer Battles, and the other "security" companies - some of which hire foreign ex-paramilitary force members who are used to employing terrorist tactics are there because the corporations that backed the war needed their own security forces that would not have ties to the locals and didn't have to operate under the UCMJ, not that that matters to some of the more jaded Kool-aid drinking members of our military any more.

The problem is, Iraq was envisioned by a few large, American based holding corporations to be a "free market" experiment using an relatively isolated, already beaten down country where there would be little governmental or international interference to their operations and where there were sufficient natural resources to make the adventure profitable, whether it succeeded or failed.
From what I understand, it was originally attempted in the Balkans during the 90's to some degree, but with several European countries already invested in Croatia and Serbia - where the resources were - and historical attention, there was not much that could go forward without the EU or Russia getting involved.
Iraq fit their plan perfectly. Lots of oil, water, and Saddam Hussein had effectively isolated and pacified the citizenry of Iraq. They figured that if they could get rid of Hussein and put in their own viceroy, and the population would fall into line.
Of course, too many of these fat old MBA types have no understanding of history, linear or cultural. Anyone with a library card and the ability to see past their own ego could have figured out what would happen. Just like anyone with an attention span past 2 minutes could have seen that leading up to 2002, Iran, North Korea, and Syria were becoming less radical and were making overtures to the international community. Well, before they were lumped into the several "axis of evil" categories our feckless pResident developed for his own personal fairy tale.

Haele

[tuckessee]

47. 48,000 security contractors in Iraq according to the US Gov't

The following quote is from the article linked below.

"...The precise number of mercenaries is unclear, but last year, a US government report identified 48,000 employees of private military/security firms..."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2138917,00.html

[Bluerthanblue]

2. good point, - the focus groups

have aided this administration more than anyone realizes.

Soldier of fortune/mercernaries are very different than contractors.

Thanks for pointing this out.

[baldguy]

3. Contractors have been hired to work in Iraq.

Roofer and plumbers - and truck drivers and engineers too.

But, you're right. The truck drivers didn't smuggle guns. The engineers didn't use slaves to build their buildings. The roofers didn't murder random Iraqis.

The mercenaries did.

[BrklynLiberal]

6. Do those guys work for Blackwater?

[kenny blankenship]

4. Yeah but then the Senate would vote to condemn you

[BrklynLiberal]

5. This was a subject of discussion last night on Bill Maher..

As was said, these guys are not in Iraq to repair anyone's roof or fix the plumbing. They are hired killers. Calling them by their accurate name would go a long way to give the American public a clear picture of what they are doing there. There should also be more publicity about how much money these people are making, while not being subject either US military law or civil Iraqi law.

Another interesting fact is that the owner of Blackwater is a right-wing, conservative christian fundamentalist, whose family has donated more money than we will ever know about to Bush and other right wing causes. They are making a huge fortune off this war, and a significant portion of the money is going right back into the political coffers of those who are the war's biggest supporters!!!

No doubt, the same principles of cash flow apply to Halliburton. It was on the verge of bankruptcy before Cheney was Vice-President. Not only are its profits at the level of obscenity now, Halliburton is moving its corporate headquarters to Dubai so it does not even have to pay US taxes on all the money it has made off the war - that is US tax money they have pocketed!!!!!!!!

[patrice]

10. "christian fundamentalist" convert to Catholicism. Interesting, that.

Anther notable relatively recent convert to Catholicism, as I hear it anyway (will go check soon): Sam Brownback.

[haele]

13. Is this "Opus Dei" - the corporate based Catholicism -

with the constantly Angry, mostly Absent Daddy god, his frat-boy son Supply-Side Jesus, and the corrupted Holey Ghost of what may once have been a decent, caring credo that a few people over the centuries like, oh, Thomas Aquinas and Francis of Assisi did their best to live up to? (Disclaimer - I am not and never have been a Xtian of any flavor, but I do have a good grounding in history and comparative religions and can appreciate ideals behind the culture)

It's all about going through the motions to be "in the club", not the actual belief with these people.

Haele

[patrice]

21. Yep. That's them. Read up on "The Order of the Spur" too.

I know people who have seen them in a certain parish in Colorado Springs.

I heard several stories about what was going on in local parishes during phone banking in 2000 and 2004.

...................

What an interesting coat-of-arms in your avatar; where did you get it?

[haele]

26. It's my SCA coat of arms from back in the day...

Quarterly Vert and Purpure, a cross parted and fretted entwined with an annulet, Or. (I designed it that way partly because it's an easy pattern to paint or sew, as well as there being very few of them listed on the various armoral regestries back in the early 80's.)
When I was active duty, I had a lot more time to be involved with hobby re-creation - I was herald for first the 6-10 (at any one time) other SCA members on my ship and later on for the group Barony.

As soon as the kidlet gets out of her trying years, Laz and I intend to re-join.

Haele
(providing only a slight detour, rather than a hijacking, of the thread...)

[patrice]

28. Not hijacking here either; my last question on this: Sorry, SCA?

I love semiotics. The cross is a great metaphor for the essential Human condition. I could also go on about its parting and the annulet, but won't.

What is SCA please?

[haele]

32. SCA - Society for Creative Anachronisms

Started in Berkley, CA back in the lat 60's as part of a science fiction/fantasy convention, now grown into an international hobby group with lots of spin-offs and associated groups. Runs your usual gauntlet of families, craftspeople, college students, academics and free-spirited professionals to frustrated loners and grown "kids". (I won't say what category I fall near...) I think there's quite a few DU'ers who are also members.

Web site: http://www.sca.org/ if you're interested further.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread. :)

Haele

[mvccd1000]

44. Slight correction on the Halliburton comments...

Halliburton moved the headquarters, not the corporation. They were incorporated (and paying taxes) in Delaware when the headquarters was in Houston, and they will be incorporated (and paying taxes) in Delaware when the headquarters is in Dubai.

Also, Halliburton has very few, if any, people working in Iraq. Their former subsidiary, KBR, has many thousands, but KBR was spun off to be its own company not too long ago. KBR was in the government contracting business long before they were bought up by Halliburton, and they will probably be in it far into the future. That is what they do, but it was not a core business for Halliburton, so Halliburton got rid of them.

I've done some reading. :)

[BrklynLiberal]

45. KBR is the big money maker for the once bankrupt Halliburton

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/dubai.html
Halliburton bails out of Iraq, KBR and now America
12 March 2007

WASHINGTON, March 12 (HalliburtonWatch.org) -- “With various ongoing investigations, Halliburton's sale of KBR and the move to UAE are tantamount to fleeing the scene of a crime,” said Jim Donahue, co-director of Halliburton Watch, in response to the company’s announcement today that it will move its headquarters to Dubai, UAE.

Halliburton is moving to UAE at a time when it is being investigated in the U.S. for bribery, bid rigging, defrauding the military and illegally profiting in Iran. It is currently in the process of divesting all of its ownership interest in the scandal-plagued KBR subsidiary, notorious for overcharging the military and serving contaminated food and water to the troops in Iraq.

Although Halliburton will still be incorporated inside the United States, moving its corporate headquarters to UAE will make it easier to avoid accountability from federal investigators. The company has proven adept at using offshore subsidiaries to circumvent restrictions on doing business in Iran and to elude responsibility for paying benefits to former employees.


Halliburton has also used its operational structure for contracts in Iraq and post-Katrina -- especially multiple layers of subcontractors -- to elude oversight and accountability to taxpayers.

Moving to UAE may also hinder ongoing government investigations into Halliburton's alleged bribes paid to the government of Nigeria. CEO David Lesar, a former accountant who is presumably very adept at structural finance, supervised former KBR chairman Albert "Jack" Stanley during the time when KBR is alleged to have bribed Nigerian government officials. Stanley was subsequently fired after allegedly receiving $5 million in "improper" payments related the bribery scheme. Lesar, who was president and chief operating officer at the time, reported directly to then CEO Dick Cheney. According to the Dallas Morning News, "Mr. Cheney ran Halliburton when one of four suspicious payments occurred." (Dallas Morning News, Sept. 8, 2004.) (Dallas Morning News, Sept. 8, 2004.)

The United States has no extradition treaty with the UAE.

”Given the multiple ongoing investigations into Halliburton's alleged wrongdoing, policymakers should closely scrutinize Halliburton's latest move, and whether it will allow the company to further elude accountability,” said Charlie Cray, co-director of Halliburton Watch and director of the Center for Corporate Policy. “Moreover, this underscores the need for Congress to bar companies that have broken the law, or avoided paying taxes, from receiving federal contracts.”

Sarah Anderson of the Institute for Policy Studies notes that most Fortune 500 companies have global operations, so that moving an entire headquarters to another country is not necessary. "With today's technologies, there's no real reason to have to physically relocate," she said. "Those that have are trying to evade U.S. oversight and tax authorities. And Dubai is a tax-free haven – no corporate or employee taxes. Halliburton claims this is not a big deal, but I can’t imagine Lesar will be working over there alone in a little cubicle. This will be a much-expanded operation in Dubai."

"Despite the billions in US government contracts Halliburton has received, it has no loyalty or sense of obligation to US troops or taxpayers," she said, adding, "I find it ironic that Lesar is going to the same place as one of the only other individuals who's received even more bad publicity in recent years -- Michael Jackson."

Martin Sullivan, contributing editor at the nonpartisan Tax Notes magazine, said relocating to the no-tax jurisdiction of Dubai would change Halliburton's tax situation "significantly" even though the company would still be registered in the US. By re-locating its CEO and other top executives to Dubai, Halliburton can argue that a portion of its profits should be attributed to the no-tax jurisdiction, he said.

Halliburton earned a record $2.3 billion in profit last year. That's almost equal to the $2.7 billion the Pentagon found in the company's overcharges in Iraq.

Members of Congress have called for an investigation. Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND) said, "I want to know, is Halliburton trying to run away from bad publicity on their contracts? Are they trying to run away from the obligation to pay US taxes? Or are they trying to set up a corporate presence in Dubai so that they can avoid the restrictions that currently exist on doing business with prohibited countries like Iran?"

Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) said, "This is an insult to the US soldiers and taxpayers who paid the tab for their no-bid contracts and endured their overcharges for all these years."

Rep. Henry Waxman, chairman of the powerful House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, has promised hearings into the matter. "I want to understand the ramifications for U.S. taxpayers and national security," he said.

[bluestateguy]

7. Unlike the troops, they can go home anytime they want to

The same day in 2004 that the 4 "contractors" were killed and burned to death in Fallujah, 4 Marines were killed, yet that received scant media coverage.

[patrice]

8. I refer to them as War Profiteers. nt

[alfredo]

11. But that is usually used for industrialist. Mercenaries work for them.

[BlooInBloo]

9. This generation's "military advisors".

[eleny]

12. Exactly the point Jeremy Scahill made to Dorgan's senate committee yesterday

Now let's see what the heck they do about it.

[alfredo]

14. Let's put pressure on the media and on progressive commentators to

stop using republican framing. It starts with you and I.

[eleny]

36. I was very happy to see that Olbermann jumped right on it

Time for a thanks to him and a prod to the rest. Yes. :hi:

[alfredo]

37. It's got to jump from cable to the three big

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. Mercenaries aren't known as the scum of the earth for nothing.

[uppityperson]

16. Some contractors are contractors. Blackwater people are merc.

Use contractor for those who are and mercs for those who are mercs.

[alfredo]

17. There's not much if any reconstruction going on. Most now is

related to supporting the military occupation. The carpenters and plumbers have been outsourced to those Arab slave labor companies. The man who thought he'd be building a school is now riding shotgun in a convoy.

[uppityperson]

20. Some do food service, telecommunication, other support services too.

Laundry:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/16/us/17cnd-contractor.html?ex=1342238400&en=b843d4c4ee1fb0ba&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

And some drive trucks but not hold guns. Some did go expecting to 1 thing and are doing another, like driving trucks.

Not all contractors are hired guns.

[alfredo]

27. Much of the domestic chores are outsourced to south Asians.

Very few if any Iraqis are allowed work for the occupation. An American would not be a "house boy" for truck drivers.

[leftchick]

18. just look at them! Hired Fucking Killers!

[patrice]

22. Tell me what the difference between Blackwater and al Qaeda is, please.

[leftchick]

24. I can not think of any

in fact I would bet BOTH are paid with US tax dollars!

[patrice]

25. To the extent that this country has not only enriched Oil Royalty

by driving the price of crude up with this Damned War, but also, at minimum, distracted their insurgent Shia, I'd say "Yes our tax dollars do support al Qaeda". And that doesn't even get into the stuff that Sy Hersh published in The New Yorker several months ago, describing what happened to some of those semi-truck loads of dollars that disappeared into Iraq.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

49. Blackwater is just doing it for money. IMO that makes them worse. n/t

[patrice]

23. Adrenaline junkies. nt

[alfredo]

29. You come out of the military with a very narrow skill set. I remember

when I got out they couldn't find any civilian jobs for my skills. They kept sending me to the CIA and State Department. When I told them I wanted a non government job they said they couldn't help me. I'm sure Blackwater has an easy time recruiting veterans who have come home only to see their job gone and their options severely limited.

They can make a lot of money doing something they already know how to do.

[patrice]

30. I know. I taught in public high schools. God forgive "us"!

It also has to do with an economy that doesn't want real people with their own talents and creativity.

[alfredo]

33. Some people believe the economic policies were made to funnel people

into the military.

[patrice]

34. I know some very old, experienced Educators who believe that.

A well developed populace is toooooo much competition.

[alfredo]

40. you don't want some kid from the working class competing with your

spoiled, gentleman's C, rehab regular kid.

[haele]

35. Current economic policies do that -

Used to be you could make a living, raise a family, and retire with perhaps a bit of property as a general handyman, a factory worker that couldn't make management, a senior clerk at a store, a cook at a diner, or a receptionist at a major office. Heck you could even start your own low-skilled service business (such as a cleaning or clerical service) and be able to at least survive up through the 90's. It was all about how hard you were willing to work, rather than how long you went to school or who you impressed along the way. Now, those are "starter" jobs - barely enough to make a living on for a single person, let alone a family.
Even for skilled trades that don't require a degree, wages are basically stagnant - I'm seeing people coming into a field such as electronics technician with the very same wage scale that I did when I got off active duty back in the late 80's - and they don't even get the benefits I started out with.

To raise a family now, you have to sell yourself to those with money enough to at least make lower/middle management or otherwise exploit your "skill-sets" into a skilled trade or sales job - whether or not you actually work hard. And how many lead and management positions are there available? In a city, the ratio of grunt (starter) work to lead or management runs around 25 to 1; not good odds for everyone who might want a reliable living wage so they can focus on work at the job and not on their personal stresses.
Those who have been lucky enough to be self-employed and find well-paying niche work are getting fewer and farther between.
There are few options for people who don't have the resources for an up-front investment of 5 - 10 years and around a hundred thousand dollars to make a reasonably comfortable living at working hard making a life-long career without struggling to keep their family healthy and a roof over their head.

So many choose the military. It's "quick, regular money" and fairly easy to join no matter what your skills are or how well you did in school. Even if the military doesn't really "pay" enough to make a living at the lower levels, you're still guaranteed 3 meals, health care, a regular paycheck and a roof over your head for the renting of your body as needed 24/7 for a set amount of years, whether you're actually working or not.
And if you can handle being treated like a piece of merchandise for twenty years or so, it might actually end a career with a "pension" to keep you going after you retire should you not want to continue working after giving up your life for your enlistment - something very rare in this day and age. The primary downside is that your training and experience will be so specialized, there are very few jobs outside the military structure you can walk into and keep your standard of living similar to what you just left. The cultural change can be just as daunting. The military has become their "home" and "family" - and takes care of them, however it abuses them. Unlike too many civilian jobs that don't take care of their workers, yet will often abuse them for the bottom line of the profit margin.
So those that join the military and have learned very few skills other than the ones they joined with (like infantry) tend to go to Blackwater and other military contractors when the government no longer has an interest in their body.

If we as a country return to a culture that values labor as much as salesmanship, then you will see more options for ex-military with "general" skills to get a decent job on the outside without feeling as if there were no where else to go than to a cult corporation like Blackwater because that's the only "home" they can find.

Haele

[alfredo]

41. I lived well with our janitorial service back in the 90's. I knew that

to grow beyond what I had would mean hiring people and my first employee was stealing from clients so I got rid of her before she got caught. Can't jump into the business and make it like I did. The big companies have taken over that business in this area. They hire legal and illegal immigrants and lowball the bids to drive out the privateers. I got out at a good time.

I went with the Post Office, got disability and my pension. I survive. I was lucky. It's going to be much harder to be lucky now that the multinationals are firmly in control.

[Odin2005]

31. I call them the Merchants of Death.

[here_is_to_hope]

38. Just reported Iraq has video

see latest breaking.

[Phrogman]

39. Let me tell you people what ex Navy SEAL's do in peacetime

They....

tile floors
clean swimming pools
park cars
sell insurance
ect......

Now, theres a situation, where they're doing what they always dreamed of doing, at 600+ bucks a day, open ended contract with plenty of room for advancement.

And the limiting factor is that as soon as theres peace and order they'll lose their high paying job and go back to....

tiling floors
cleaning swimming pools
parking cars
selling insurance
ect......

Do I make my point?

[haele]

42. I know a couple ex-SEAL E-5's and E-6's that got out before retirement -

It's damn tough for them to get work, usually they gravitate to police work or shipyard work if they can dive, weld or work on electronics around here. Someone puts in 10 - 12 years of their life, working instead of "going to school" and there's not much else they can do, even if they bite the bullet and finish to 20 years in the Reserves at some port security support unit. Luckily, this is San Diego, so there are some options to them.
The ones that are really screwed are the ones who retire and "go back home" to Kansas or Ohio, and there's absolutely nothing for them that they can survive on. Except maybe as a mall rent-a-cop or if they're really lucky, they can snag a security position in civil service or at a local college.

Haele

[alfredo]

43. If those positions are still there. Returning soldiers and sailors

are coming home to find their job has been outsources, or job description changed to the point their old job no longer exists. Anyway, how do you expect a business owner to hold open a job for a guy that has been deployed 2 times and is ready to be deployed again? Would you hire a Guardsman knowing he or she could be deployed over and over again?

Many, up to a third, have PTSD and may not be able to function in the "real world." He might do fine until the sound of a boom box car brings back memories of mortars going off.

[Phrogman]

55. Its not just the boom or the boxcars, its how do you go back to a menial job

like cleaning pools or laying tile when your used to firefights on Haifa street.

The only thing that compares is a life of crime, and thats a whole nother' topic for us to cover.

[PDenton]

57. Rambo quote:

"Back there I could fly a gunship, I could drive a tank, I was in charge of million dollar equipment, back here I can't even hold a job parking cars!"

People who slam the contractors in Iraq, need to look at it from the average contractors perspective. This is what they were made to do, so they do it. They have trouble relating to "the world", and contrary to the military propoganda ads they put on TV, employers don't always value military experience any longer.

Most of the civilians in this war are chicken shits that can't relate at all to military life. That's the sad thing for this country because we have people over there fighting and dying in their names and at most people just slap a bumper sticker on their car and think they "support the troops". Then they slam people like John Kerry that have done more to support the troops with their little pinky finger than they have in their entire lives.

[Phrogman]

58. Theres a lot to that quote, it wouldn't surprise me if the screenwriter

was a vet.

[PDenton]

59. Ramo was based on a novel

by a psychology professor, if I remember correctly, who was fascinated by stories of returning vets who were going to college. In the book Rambo is nothing but a killing machine betrayed and abandoned by his government, murders and blows up alot of stuff in the small town and ultimately has the Colonel kill him to end his misery. It really is Frankenstein combined with a Vietnam Vet. The movie tries to have a less final, negative ending, and of course Rambo intentionally kills no-one at the start.

[alfredo]

60. A man who faced death is not going to want to put on a paper hat

and ask a person if they want fries with that, especially if before they went to Iraq they had a job with health care and a pension. If there was a draft a draftee would be guaranteed their job back, but Guard and enlistees don't have that protection.

[BrklynLiberal]

46. kick

[TahitiNut]

48. See...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1880824&mesg_id=1880824

[alfredo]

51. So we are correct calling them mercenaries even if they are truck drivers.

[TahitiNut]

54. If they're also 'combatants' and not nationals of the U.S. ... yes.

Blackwater and other PCMs recruit people, mostly former military, from other countries - Chile, Columbia, Mexico, and other countries. Since they're engaging in hostilities as combatants, they're mercs.

Once upon a time, it'd be unthinkable for the U.S. to engage in war without sufficient citizen-soldiers to assume all the combatant roles, including logistical and support. In Viet Nam, only 40 years ago, grunts drove the trucks and cooked the food and handled supplies and performed 'security' for VIPs. Indigenous personnel were hired to do strictly non-combatant work - helping the local economy. Cheney/Bush 'discovered' a modern flavor of an old, old approach to profiteering from war. They realize that Americans are more than willing to put up with it as long as much of the dirty work is hired out - like all our dirty work - and the rest done by the economically-coerced. It's a blessing to the war profiteers - trafficking in humans to kill humans.

But we sure wouldn't want a draft, would we? Democracy is just too much trouble - just hire it out.

[alfredo]

61. bush would call them "illegal enemy combatants."

[TahitiNut]

63. Yes ... but it should be noticed ...

... that the people he calls "illegal combatants" are often nationals of the nation he's invaded in our name. In other words, those are people truly deserving of the protections of the Geneva Conventions - a citizen militia - while the true mercenaries (recruited from non-party nations by PMCs) are given his proctection and funding. This administration has violated the Geneva Conventions on all sides, committing war crimes unimagined by most Americans.

[alfredo]

64. That's why I support charging bush and his junta with crimes

against humanity. He's no better than Milosovich.

[TahitiNut]

65. I agree 100% ... and regard it as a MINIMUM standard of justice.

Absolutely nothing short of that is even close to being just. Until such charges are brought, we're a nation of cowards and outlaws without honor and undeserving of democratic self-governance.

[alfredo]

66. Torches and Pitchforks!!!!

I think trying them, or surrendering them to the Hague would be a step in the right direction. Allowing them to go free or protecting them from prosecution would be a signal that we approve of their actions.

[RedG1]

50. same as "insurgents:...they are Freedom Fighters defending their invaded country

as were ours in the Revolutionary War against England

[alfredo]

52. England used mercenaries against us. Hessians were

mercenaries in some sense of the word. Many were conscripts, not willing participants.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

53. They are SERVANTS to corporacrats. They are blindly for hire by global thugs. n/t

[DarkTirade]

56. Yes, I agree. Call a spade a spade.

And call a mercenary a mercenary.

[alfredo]

62. The Republicans are good a framing. We shouldn't accept their frames.

Let's make our own, ones that better reflect reality.

Mercenaries are illegal enemy combatants.

[DarkTirade]

68. Exactly. I ain't letting them get away with using nice soft words to describe

something that isn't nice or soft.

[alfredo]

69. They lie with a twist, a subtle change. Language as white wash.

[DemReadingDU]

67. afternoon kick

[bobthedrummer]

70. "Security Company Death Squads Timeline by Dirk Adriaensens and Sarah Meyer"

20 mercenaries are discussed, extensive Blackwater links (started 9-25-2007)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x309935

Erik Prince links

"The Far Right in West Michigan: Erik Prince" (from mediamouse.org)
http://www.mediamouse.org/resources/right.php?personId=8

Source Watch.org profile
"Erik Prince"
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Erik_Prince

IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST