Reporters Name Other CIA Leak Sources

[133724]

(CBS/AP) Some of the nation's best-known journalists testified Monday about news leaks in the Bush administration as attorneys for I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby tried to cast the former White House aide as a scapegoat in the CIA case.

<snip>

Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus testified that former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer, not Libby, was the first to tell him the identity of former ambassador and prominent war critic Joseph Wilson's wife in 2003, reports CBS News Justice Department reporter Deirdre Hester. The Post's Bob Woodward and syndicated columnist Robert Novak testified they heard it from Deputy State Department Secretary Richard Armitage.

As for Libby, both Novak and New York Times reporter David Sanger testified that they separately interviewed him and that he never discussed Plame.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/12/politics/main2463194.shtml

[BuyingThyme]

1. So, does this hit Fleischer as hard as it seems?

Not that we can believe anybody from the Washington Post, but doesn't this merit an investigation into Ari?

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Ari got immunity.

He was apparently a major source for Fitz.

[BuyingThyme]

3. Yeah, but from what I'm reading today, Ari says he

never talked Plame with Pincus. That's apparently what he testified to. So, if his testimony is false, isn't his immunity gone?

[Jackpine Radical]

5. Wow. If he can be shown to have lied, I would think so.

I just didn't pick that up. Why would Pincus lie? (Remembering, of course, Pincus is an old water-carrier for the CIA.)

[BuyingThyme]

9. I guess that's the thing. You can't prosecute one liar

based on the testimony of another. But maybe it's worth investigating.

From an earlier thread:

Washington Post reporter Walter Pincus testified in court this morning that then-White House press secretary Ari Fleischer, not I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was the first person to tell him that a prominent critic of the Iraq war was married to undercover CIA officer Valerie Plame.

(...)

Fleischer testified last month as a prosecution witness that he mentioned Plame only to two reporters -- John Dickerson, then of Time Magazine, and David Gregory of NBC News -- during a trip that President Bush took to Africa.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x192718

[Sydnie]

8. Why yes, Virginia, there is a Fitzmas!

If that is what he testified to and Pincus is testifying to a different fact, Ari could be toast, legally. Fitz made him explain his understanding of his immunity deal BEFORE he began to testify.

That would be tasty ... flame broiled Ari with a side of Scooter Pie! :rofl:

[BuyingThyme]

11. Could it be that he was only testifying about contacts

DURING his Africa trip?

I'm going to have to look up the context.

[Sydnie]

12. If Fitz new this tidbit that Pincus testified to today

why would he have left such a gapping hole for them to drive through?

[BuyingThyme]

13. I don't understand. Aren't they falling into a hole?

[Sydnie]

14. Well, Ari would be falling in a hole here

If Ari testified that he only told two reporters (given the assumption that Fitz would have asked about ALL contacts, not just specific ones), and Pincus testified that Ari told him outright, then Ari has placed his agreement NOT to be prosecuted in dire jeopardy. He would have to come back to the stand as a rebuttal witness and testify further that Pincus is lying, opening the door for his to really shoot himself in the foot. If Pincus' testimony stands uncontested, the Ari had to have been lying under oath before (IF all contacts were explored on the stand).

Reviewing Ari's testimony, as you suggested, is in order for sure.

[133724]

26. So they would drive through it and got to jail and pay $200????

[Patsy Stone]

15. The immunity was for the GJ testimony in addition to subsequent trials.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/osc/exhibits/0129/GX05101.PDF

He wouldn't talk to the GJ without immunity. This was granted on Feb 11 2004. The order was because Fitz wanted to know who he told. Ari asked for the immunity in case Valerie's status was classified, which he testified Libby never told him. All that "qt on the hush hush" thing was taken by Ari to mean get this out, not that her status was classified.

Ari didn't tell Pincus he heard it from Libby, and Libby said he didn't tell Pincus. That last sentence was the whole point of this defense "strategy". If Libby didn't tell Pincus, he didn't tell anyone else. Sure.

One theory at FDL is that "Fitz knew that Libby wasn’t Pincus’ source, but questioned him rigorously about it for tactical reasons - one of which was to keep Libby from realizing that Ari Fleisher was cooperating."

If you have immunity, it's insane to perjure yourself. There's no there there.

From Ari's testimony:

Fl my plans what I was going to do in the private sector. Talked about sports, football, both fans of the Dolphins. I don't remember if I brought up or Libby brought up the briefing. I said I got asked about Wilson. I said what I was asked by the OVP to say. What I recall Libby saying to me, reiterated that VP did not send Wilson. Ambassador Wilson got sent by his wife, she works at CIA, Works in CPD, I recall that he told me her name. This is hush hush this is on the QT….

P What word did Libby use when he described Wilson's wife.

Fl I remember him saying she works at CIA at CPD.

P Did you know what it meant.

Fl not in specific, I don't know enough about CIA inner structure to know what it means.

P her name, how did he describe her name

Fl I believe he said Valerie Plame

Fl the news that VP had not sent him, it was the first time I ever heard it.

P what did you understand Libby to mean by hush hush

Fl I thought it was kind of odd. My sense was Libby was saying it was kind of newsie, no one knows.

P did you understand that it was classified

Fl absolutely not. There's a very strict protocol when classified info is spread, my experience, when someone conveyed info that I was authorized to hear, it was always, "this is classified you're authorized to hear." When it's oral, people always say, "this is classified you cannot use it." (emphasis mine)

That "emphasis mine" refers to Christy at FDL, not me. http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/01/29/b-i-n-g-o/

But, that says that Ari wasn't told it was classified. So, that's what the immunity was for, probably along with leaking, since Fitz probably knew Ari wasn't the leader here.

[Sydnie]

16. More from FDL too

Did you and Bartlett have a discussion about reaching out to reporters. We talked about that CBS report. We should find out who else is writing this story. I said we should get this out to everyone we talk to about Tenet.

Fl I called Pincus at WaPo, I think I called someone at NYT. I can't recall what Bartlett did.

J Is it a fact that you and Bartlett agreed to contact several print and media journalists. Ari NYT and Wapo and Bartlett the Sunday talk shows.

J You did meet with the FBI on June 10 2004. Did you tell the FBI that Bartlett was going to contact the Sunday talk shows.

Fl I don't recall who I said he was going to call.

J One of the Sunday talk shows would be MTP. Who is the NBC correspondant?

Fl Correspondant? Anchor is Tim Russert.

J Walter Pincus–can you say what area he writes in?

Fl I called him bc, WH reporters taht covered this story. I was working off of who was covering the controversy. I knew he wasn't on the trip, so I could reach him.

J Did you tell Pincus that Wilson's wife worked at CIA.

Fl nossir. I would have remembered it if it happened.

Emphasis mine. Ari said he didn't tell Pincus.

[Patsy Stone]

18. But what did he tell the GJ?

If he said he didn't tell Pincus then, and he says he didn't tell Pincus now, then he didn't contradict himself, but, if it's true that he did tell Pincus he would have perjured himself twice. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying it makes no sense for Ari to do that. He was scott free.

This must have been why Wells wanted to get the immunity agreement read so he could try and prove Ari was lying then, or now, or both.

If there are two stories on the stand, then someone will need to recall Ari. I will be shocked if Fitz didn't know that Ari told Pincus (if he told Pincus). Is Pincus lying? I don't know, but something doesn't add up, or maybe I haven't thought this through. More reading to do. The job gets in the way of more important things.

:hi:

[BuyingThyme]

17. So, would the immunity not be violated if Ari

falsely testified (last week) that he shared Plame information with two reporters when he actually shared Plame information with three reporters?

[Patsy Stone]

19. Yes

as I told Sydnie below. Still trying to think why Ari would do that.

I'm reading as fast as I can. :)

[Sydnie]

20. Well, Pincus appears to be trying to paint Ari as a liar

and it might not be Ari that gets caught with that trap ... it could be Pincus himself that shoots himself in the foot?

In any event, getting Ari back on the stand to dispute this testimony opens him up to a whole new set of questions to answer, doesn't it? :shrug:

[Patsy Stone]

22. Sure it does

I think if there was an issue, it would be Wells who would recall him.

What would Fitz ask him? He might ask him to clarify that point (if he isn't going to just out and out charge him with perjury), but I don't think Fitz wants to ask him any other line of questions. If Ari really does have immunity, and this Pincus thing isn't an issue, there's nothing Ari could do but hurt Libby or the VP. If this is true, at this point, the only one Ari is hurting is Ari. It doesn't change what Libby told him, or what he told him to do.

Still, for a guy to be the first to lawyer up, and take the fifth, and get immunity, it makes no sense to do this, and I think we're just missing something. If not, this guy's a moron. I thought he was a lot of things, but I never thought he was stupid.

David Shuster made no mention of it, and Marcy said that Swopa owed her a beer, but would they both have missed this if it was a bombshell?

I have no idea.

ed: to add that I've watched the nightly video and while they certainly mentioned this, no one said perjury. Curiouser and curiouser. I posted this question over there, let's see what they think.

:popcorn:

[Missy Vixen]

21. The immunity specifically DID NOT COVER perjury

I remember that much from Ari's testimony...

Julie

[Patsy Stone]

23. Correct

In fact, Wells was the one who wanted the immunity agreement brought in. So, that would mean that Wells had to disclose at some point that the point of Pincus' testimony goes to impeach Ari, no? If that was the case, it's difficult to believe that Fitz wouldn't have covered that base, or charged Ari with perjury right after court today.

[Sydnie]

24. Or, Or , Or ....

could Fitz be looking to vacate the immunity deal and charge Ari with the big bamboo of this whole investigations instead? could he have played his hand in such a way as to flip the guy he was going after in the first place? :shrug: My mind is wandering in too many directions, but that thought just occurred to me.

[Patsy Stone]

25. :)

That would be SWEEET. Can't wait to find out.

[Patsy Stone]

28. An answer from FDL

Patsy Stone @ 21

So, did Ari perjure himself? I’m confused.

I can’t see that he would, unless he’s insane, but something’s wrong here isn’t it?

----

Pectopah says

February 12th, 2007 at 7:13 pm

Ari testified that he leaked to two reports while in Africa. He was not asked if he leaked to any reporters later. That is how he is off the hook.

[Sydnie]

29. then they aren't reading their own reports closely

Remember this from my earlier post?

J Did you tell Pincus that Wilson's wife worked at CIA.

Fl nossir. I would have remembered it if it happened.

Emphasis mine. Ari said he didn't tell Pincus.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=193518&mesg_id=194422

He WAS asked if he told Pincus!

[Patsy Stone]

31. I just posted this over there

<snip>

Actually, I hate to be a pain about this, but someone found this in Ari’s testimony:

J Did you tell Pincus that Wilson’s wife worked at CIA.

Fl nossir. I would have remembered it if it happened.

But Pincus says he did. This still looks like perjury, and unless the question Jefress asked was different than the FDL record (more specific like “Did you tell Pincus that his wife was a NOC?”) then it seems Ari’s in a bind.

<snip>

I might not be awake for much longer, so if they answer before I get back, and you happen to see it, please post it here. Can't wait to see how this turns out. I've wanted to see Ari in an orange jumpsuit for a long time.

[Sydnie]

32. I posted at the same time you did and this is the answer I got

I was parsing a WaPo article about the trial. At first I thought from reading it that Ari perjured himself. But I read the WaPo wording closely and realized it refered to the leaking while in Africa, as opposed to later. But you may be on to something. The article containted the same awkward syntax that got Andrea Mitchell in trouble: you can read it anyway you want.

[Patsy Stone]

33. I got this

I think it was stated in court today that Pincus revealed Fleischer’s name for the first time and that Pincus said he had just contacted Fleischer prior to today’s testimony to make sure it was still OK to testify to their conversation. I don’t think Fleischer would have given the OK if he thought it would get him in trouble.

And now I'm really off to bed. :)

[SpiralHawk]

4. The fish rots from the head on down

Take it from Commander AWOL.

[choie]

6. exactly...

what this all proves is that there was a systematic effort to out Plame via many Bush minions: Libby, Armitage, Rove and Fleischer. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[Beaverhausen]

7. But Libby is on trial for LYING to the grand jury

is this relevant?

[Sydnie]

10. It's damn relevant to Ari and the deal he made with Fitz.

That could be checkmate for Ari. He thinks he escaped because he got immunity, but that only is in effect unless and until he commited perjury. Then his deal is gone with the wind!

[Scout1071]

27. Gosh...on Cheney's orders, at least 3, possibly 4 govt officials leaked

simultaneously.

Can you say conspiracy?

[133724]

30. Valarie Plame is going to have a field day with the civil suit!!!!

Can Cheney et. all. spell bankruptcy????