So my employer, Catholic Health Initiatives, now requires respect for God, is this even legal?

[Hoof Hearted]

Our hospital is part of a Catholic Health conglomeration called CHI (Catholic Health Initiatives) and they just launched one of those new centralized robo-systems in place of our local H.R., shafted us (collectively) out of tens of thousands of hours of earned benefits and as part of this new deal, all applications from (internal and new hires) will be submitted online.

So I thought I'd take a little lookie-loo at the positions available tonight, and under the education/certification/license requirements and other usual crap for every position I find this:

Additional Responsibilities:

Demonstrates a commitment to service, hospital values and professionalism through appropriate conduct and demeanor at all times.
Adheres to and exhibits Catholic Health Initiatives core values:
Reverence: Having a profound spirit of awe and respect for all creation, shaping relationships to self, to one another and to God and acknowledging that we hold in trust all that has been given to us.
Integrity: Moral wholeness, soundness, uprightness, honesty and sincerity as a basis of trustworthiness.
Compassion: Feeling with others, being one with others in their sorrows and joys, rooted in the sense of solidarity as members of the human community.
Excellence: Outstanding achievement, merit, virtue; continually surpassing standards to achieve/maintain quality.
Maintains confidentiality and protects sensitive data at all times.
Adheres to organizational and department specific safety standards and guidelines.
Works collaboratively and supports efforts of team members.
Demonstrates exceptional customer service and interacts effectively with physicians, patients, visitors, staff and the broader health care community.


Catholic Health Initiatives and its organizations are Equal Opportunity Employers


It's in all of the job listings I looked at.
http://www.gshs.org/body.cfm?id=550

[msongs]

1. do those services include smallpox infested blankets anymore? nt

[Hoof Hearted]

5. I didn't see it in the info packet, however I do believe my director

would be quite happy to see me wrapped in one.

[RevCheesehead]

2. what part of "Catholic" confused you?

:shrug:

[Hoof Hearted]

6. Perhaps Rev it was the EOE part and that whole separation of church and state thingy

that threw me off?

I'm a Christian, and I attend church.

And it's none of their damn business how I feel about God as far as I'm concerned, as long as I perform my job well.

[Rosemary2205]

9. Your employer is owned by the government?

Sorry I'm confused. What does "separation of church and state" have to do with it?

[Hoof Hearted]

14. Ok then, let's just stick to EOE, if it makes ya feel better.

Religious Discrimination
Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of l964 prohibits employers from discriminating against individuals because of their religion in hiring, firing, and other terms and conditions of employment. Title VII covers employers with 15 or more employees, including state and local governments. It also applies to employment agencies and to labor organizations, as well as to the federal government.

Under Title VII:

Employers may not treat employees or applicants more or less favorably because of their religious beliefs or practices - except to the extent a religious accommodation is warranted. For example, an employer may not refuse to hire individuals of a certain religion, may not impose stricter promotion requirements for persons of a certain religion, and may not impose more or different work requirements on an employee because of that employee's religious beliefs or practices.
Employees cannot be forced to participate -- or not participate -- in a religious activity as a condition of employment.
Employers must reasonably accommodate employees' sincerely held religious practices unless doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employer. A reasonable religious accommodation is any adjustment to the work environment that will allow the employee to practice his religion. An employer might accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices by allowing: flexible scheduling, voluntary substitutions or swaps, job reassignments and lateral transfers, modification of grooming requirements and other workplace practices, policies and/or procedures.
An employer is not required to accommodate an employee's religious beliefs and practices if doing so would impose an undue hardship on the employers' legitimate business interests. An employer can show undue hardship if accommodating an employee's religious practices requires more than ordinary administrative costs, diminishes efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees' job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety, causes co-workers to carry the accommodated employee's share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work, or if the proposed accommodation conflicts with another law or regulation.
Employers must permit employees to engage in religious expression, unless the religious expression would impose an undue hardship on the employer. Generally, an employer may not place more restrictions on religious expression than on other forms of expression that have a comparable effect on workplace efficiency.
Employers must take steps to prevent religious harassment of their employees. An employer can reduce the chance that employees will engage unlawful religious harassment by implementing an anti-harassment policy and having an effective procedure for reporting, investigating and correcting harassing conduct.
It is also unlawful to retaliate against an individual for opposing employment practices that discriminate based on religion or for filing a discrimination charge, testifying, or participating in any way in an investigation, proceeding, or litigation under Title VII.

[Rosemary2205]

19. I do believe

the law would only come into play if it can be proved they either fired someone or refused to hire someone over religion.

[Solon]

21. Or disiplined, demoted, harrassed, docked pay, etc. because of that reason....

Its hard to prove that such things happen, though they do, and if someone feels they are being discriminated against in that fashion, its best to make sure to document every incident and ask for explanations about why you are being treated that way.

[Hoof Hearted]

24. If they are claiming EOE then the law is in play.

You can't say you require a belief in God and then claim you're not discriminating on religious grounds.

It's kind of like putting an ad in the paper calling for all applicants to posses as part of their personal anatomy at least one fully formed testicle and then claiming they don't discriminate against women.

[harun]

66. It doesn't say it requires belief in God, it says a respect for

and it is well within their rights to do so.

[Hoof Hearted]

77. Bull hockey. This respect they require as a job responsibility

is supposed to shape my relationship with God.

If I am an Atheist, (I am not) then how can they require me to have a relationship with God as a job responsibility and still claim to be EOE employers. They can't. It's total crap.

[harun]

87. They can and are (n/t)

[eallen]

61. Publishing it as an employment requirement is evidence of intent.

I'm really surprised their legal staff let that one through.

[pnwmom]

40. But it doesn't apply to religous orgs. Can the government make a

church hire an atheist to be a minister? Nope.

And hospitals and schools are part of a church's ministry.

[Hoof Hearted]

49. How can they claim to be an EOE then? 'Cause obviously, they're not.

[Dorian Gray]

56. My husband works at a Catholic School

They have terminology like that in their mission statement, yet they employ Muslims, Buddhists, and Atheists without issue. Nobody even has to participate in the prayers. But the mission of the school is a Catholic one.

[pnwmom]

67. Sounds like a very good school.

But I bet they're not all like that.

[Dorian Gray]

74. Maybe not...

but most here in NYC are like that. I have a few friends who work at a few different schools here in NYC, and a couple of them are Catholic. And none of them require any particular religious belief to be a teacher there (with the exclusion of religion, which seem to always be taught by nuns or religious Catholics).

And growing up in NJ, I'm pretty familiar with the Catholic schools there, as well. Of course, I'm from the relatively liberal North East. In many other parts of the country, it might not be like this.

[Hoof Hearted]

78. This is not a mission statement, it is a job application.

Stating job requirements and responsibilities that, in this case, require a relationship with God based on profound awe and respect.

[pnwmom]

68. Do they all claim to be EOE? That's the question, I guess. n/t

[CheshireCat]

60. But

churches are tax exempt organizations and don't accept federal funds or grants. Hospitals fall into another category. I remember when the EOE was debated, passed and put into play. This is exactly the type of situation the law was meant to address.

[Dorian Gray]

55. Is your company

a public company? Or a Catholic organization? I'm confused.

[pnwmom]

69. So they claim EOE?

[sandnsea]

13. It's the only health care where I live

Also the largest employer. If you want a decent job, with health care benefits ironically, they're pretty much it.

[Hoof Hearted]

15. That's the same vice grip I'm in.

[robinlynne]

3. Do they get federal funding, or are they privately funded?

[Hoof Hearted]

8. They are Medicare/Medicaid providers, I'm not even sure how one goes about

finding out who funds what hospitals. I'd like to know.

[Lucinda]

27. Well...I think

Medicare is Federal and I know Medicaid is a State/Fed mix..but they also may get other funding

[spoony]

53. This raises an interesting question

If/when national healthcare becomes a reality, the government will be involved in hospitals, right? So what about St. So-and-So hospital and hospital chapels and chaplains etc.?

[gateley]

4. They may be able to get away with it because it's a Catholic organization. I'm

interested to see what others -- who actually KNOW the legalities as opposed to me -- will say.

I'm recommending and kicking so hopefully this stays visible until such a person sees it.

[Canuckistanian]

41. We have Catholic school boards here in Canada

And they are NOT allowed to hire on the basis of religion (except for religious instructors, of course).

[gateley]

42. I don't think the issue was HIRING based on a religion, per se, but rather

requiring the applicant to profess an "awe" for God -- it didn't really specify what religion. Although I'm sure if you walked in with a scapular around your neck and a St. Joseph's Daily Missal in your hand, you'd be hired on the spot. :7

[Canuckistanian]

52. Isn't that just a code word, though?

And there are so many of them lately these days.

[gateley]

72. Yeah, you're probably right. I can't believe I'm of the age where I've lived long

enough to see things really change -- the 60's -- improve, and now we're REGRESSING!

It first became apparent to me in the early 90's when I'd see kids who would be the age of mine if I'd had any, who were intolerant, racist, whatever. I couldn't believe that people of my generation, who'd learned so much I thought, could provide an environment for children in which such attitudes would be fostered.

That old saying -- the more things change, the more they stay the same. I'm beginning to understand it now. I hurt for us all.

[YOY]

58. Neither are American Catholic Schools to my knowledge

When I attended back in the early 90s, the honors math teacher was proudly and loudly Jewish.

No one called him names or said nasty things to or behind his back. He was actually a pretty cool cat.

[truedelphi]

7. I am thinking that they cannot say that you have to believe in God.

I am going to go look in the Department of Justice website.

However, what employers do is often opposed to what they are supposed to do.
They might even be willing to break the law knowing that womeone working at the Hospital is not going to have th fianncial ability for anon-going lawsuit against such a huge entitiy.
I was recently told at a job interview that applicants were looked over and that those who were not deemed healthy were not allowed into the second part of the interview process which includes a health screen etc.

This probably clearly discriminates against older workers as your chances of not having something wrong with you when you are older is fairly high.

[truedelphi]

12. Here are some websites to check out:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/religdisc
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Special_Counsel_for_Religious_Discrimination
http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/religdisc/newsletters.html

[Hoof Hearted]

17. Thank YOU!

:hi:

[Solon]

10. Actually it IS illegal...

According to the Civil Rights act of 1964, and additional supplements to that law, any organization that provides a service to the public, which Hospitals definitely qualify for, cannot discriminate against people based on religion. They cannot legally enforce this particular provision, if they did, you could sue them for discriminatory practices.

[Kelly Rupert]

16. Does that cover hiring practices as well? n/t

[Solon]

18. Yes it does, look at post 14 for more information...

The only organizations that are exempt from the Civil Rights Act are organizations that aren't open to the public and religions. However, we are talking about Churches and temples themselves, NOT organizations affiliated with them that provide services to the public, like hospitals.

[Hoof Hearted]

32. Absolutely it covers hiring practices. n/t

[sandnsea]

11. Check out ours

"At PeaceHealth, we carry on the healing mission of Jesus Christ by promoting personal and community health, relieving pain and suffering, and treating each person in a loving and caring way. The fulfillment of this Mission is our shared purpose. It drives all that we are and all that we do. To those who embrace the spirit of these words and our commitment to Exceptional Medicine and Compassionate Care, we offer the opportunity to learn and grow as a member of the PeaceHealth family."

That's in the job description. :crazy:

This is the place where my request for a new doctor, a real doctor actually, is up before a committee.

[Hoof Hearted]

20. Holy Moley.

They need a committee to decide (for you) whether or not you get access to a doctor? Well, I'm sure that's JUST what Jesus would do.

[sandnsea]

36. To change doctors, or

in my case to go from a NP to a doctor because I think I have too many problems for her to handle. What makes me angriest is they are going to assign me someone, I don't even get a say in it. And if you're too difficult, they can just refuse to treat you. It's the only clinic in my town because the Oregon Health Plan created health delivery districts to reduce administrative costs.

[truedelphi]

39. I guess it coul dbe worse. They could tell you that

So and So, a preacher, has abilities to relieve pain through the laying on of hands!

[hedgehog]

26. Was PeaceHealth founded as a Catholic Hospital or by another group?

I'm guessing another Christian group because of the name. If so, it illustrates the problem of religious institutions founded as an act of charity in the 19th or 20th centuries that now have evolved into public institutions even though the sponsoring group is still the same.

[sandnsea]

37. They administer a bunch of hospitals

Various names, including Sacred Heart, the typical. I've usually gotten really good care at Catholic Hospitals and don't have a huge problem with them; except for this statement in the job descriptions which I've never seen in years past. And the committee thing which I think is an OHP problem.

[renie408]

70. HOLY shit. n/t

[hedgehog]

22. It's a problem.

There are a lot of hospitals that were founded by various groups of nuns all over this country. At one time, they were completely staffed by nuns. Later, they trained lay women to be nurses and I imagine that most of them were Catholic. When my mother wanted to train as a nurse, Ohio State had a quota for Catholics so she ended up getting a diploma from a Catholic Hospital nursing school rather than a BS. BTW, her class was integrated. This was in 1950.

As time went on, the hospitals drifted into becoming quasi-public institutions. Here in New York, the number of hospital beds is limited by regulation. So what do you do with a Catholic institution that has become a major employer? Catholic colleges and universities have no problem hiring non-Catholics with good academic credentials. Catholic hospitals are stuck between trying to follow Catholic ideals such as taking care of the poor and being forced to operate as a business. Once they served mostly Catholics, now they serve the entire community. Some of these hospitals started out 150 years ago.

I delivered some of my kids at a Catholic hospital. For me, it was comforting to begin and end the day with a prayer over the loud speaker. I imagine it bugged some people.

Where Catholic hospitals fall down is in the area of labor relations. I don't know if they treat nurses and staff any worse than secular hospitals, but secular hospitals aren't called upon to follow the precepts of Rerum Novarum, either. There is a big ad in Commonweal this month about the low wages at the Resurrection Health System in the Chicago area.

[Hoof Hearted]

25. Low wages. Check.

We definitely have that.

[hedgehog]

29. According to the ad, Resurrection Health Services is a non-profit, but there

are some pretty hefty salaries at the top! The nuns who built those hospitals certainly didn't get paid like that! I imagine the hospital board would say they have to pay those salaries to attract the best managers. Another part of the problem is that hospitals traditionally hired a lot of women. That reinforced a tradition of low wages for some jobs.

[Annces]

54. I know Resurrection was trying to

buy another large hospital in Chicago, Western Suburban Hospital in Oak Park. They merged and then un-merged and merged again. I am sure there are big problems with who decides how they are managed. Overall I think the large hospitals are much worse to labor than the smaller ones, regardless of religious affiliation.

[Suich]

23. I have no idea but I'm really curious.

Please keep up posted if you find out anything.

Ex-Catholic here, and even if you hadn't told me, I could have figured out who came up with the "Additional Responsibilities!"

Great screen name, btw!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Hoof Hearted]

28. Ah, shucks. Thanks. I LOVED that segment on K.O. Almost hurt myself laughing.

:D

[nashville_brook]

64. i fell off the couch laughing -- love your screen name!

[madrchsod]

30. gee i wish all hospitals set their standards that high

the best hospitals i`ve been to are catholic hospitals. i contacted a staph infection that took four weeks to get rid of from a secular hospital and had really crap nursing care.
the doctor that treated me in the catholic hospital was a muslim.

[Hoof Hearted]

31. Yeah? Well we had 5 MRSA isolations on just our one ward today.

So you know, don't judge judge a book by the giant statue of Mary on the front lawn.

[hedgehog]

33. I know that in the northeast there is a tradition of non-profit hospitals

Rightly or wrongly I always associated it with the Catholic tradition because the pattern seems to match areas with a high Catholic population. The only for profit hospitals I ever heard of were in the South and West. Whatever you think of them today, they have helped a lot of people over the years who would have fallen through the cracks otherwise.

[Hoof Hearted]

34. I absolutely agree with you, 100%.

It doesn't explain the myopic discrimination apparent in their application process in 2007 though, IMO.

[appalachianguy]

35. Touchy situation with EOE and Fed Gov involvement

Hi HH,

I believe there are many conflicts in this contract and 
also there are legal issues involved as well.
Perhaps you should contact your congressman or senator's
office and run it by them. It seems that they would at least
be able to inform you what entities ultimately are responsible
for overseeing such controversial contract stipulations.
How could your employer confirm or deny your personal
relationship
with the almighty or your "profound spirit of awe and
respect for
all creation"? (Their words) I would pursue this question
with them and see how serious 
your employer is about trying to enforce such an abstraction.
The separation of church and state is possibly a leveraging
factor
depending on how much the federal govt is involved in the
employer's
funding. I have been involved in many conflicts with employers
and their
policies over the years and this contract revolves around some
extremely
personal and religious conflicts. It could even
be a first amendment issue, but you need input
from legal experts to advise you on that before
you piss off the Pope too much. Good luck! AppGuy 
   
 

[truedelphi]

43. Yep Please do not go out and insult the Pope before getting advice of counsel

Or display my bumper sticker "2008- I am voting for SATAN
(because the country has already gone to HELL!)"

On a serious note, when I was browsing through the websites I listed above, it was scary to see Gonzo's picture on the header of the website for the Dept of Justice and even scarier to read that the DOJ under GOnzo's leadership (obviously the Department ahs been too stress to change the website and remove Gonzo from it) but there new internally created mission is to ensure religious freedom FOR THE GULDARN CHURCH INSTITUTIONS.

So we just got rid of GOnzo in time. Otherwise you'd have no right to ask that you be allowed religious freedom to hold sacred your own beliefs whatever they are, and instead you could be admonished for interfereing with the freedom of the Catholic Church in wanting to have only referrent awe-struck God believers as employees working at "their" hospital

[elehhhhna]

59. My personal favorite? Glad you asked! "Feeling with others"

lmao

who wrote thi baloney? George W. Butch?

[Hoof Hearted]

80. Thanks so much for your response. I think I'll take your advice.

This is the very kind of thing, left to stand, that enables institutionalized discrimination. I have a problem with that.

[KharmaTrain]

38. All Hospitals Here Are Run By Religions...

My late father practiced for nearly 50 years at the same hospital. Initially it was privately owned, but the insurance costs got so high that the owner sold to the local archdiosese who were exempt from many of the liabilities. In fact, when there were lawsuits, it was always involving the doctors, since the hospital was owned by the Catholic church, people were afraid to name them in the suit.

In his last days, he wanted treatment at the hospital and I constantly had to keep the priests out of the room (we're Jewish) who wanted to "minister" to him. One day I brought our family Rabbi in just to get the point across.

A couple years ago, my son was rushed to another hospital...also run by a religious order (Lutherans)...who wanted to know all about his religious background. I asked what'd it matter. I was told "it's formality". I said it's none of your business...the only god that matters here is the "in god we trust". I also removed the crucafix from the wall in the room as my son felt very uncomfortable having it staring him in the face all day.

The insurance messes of the past 30 years have all but driven private operators from the business...except for the bloodsuckers like Humana and whatever the one Frist's corrupt family ran.

Today we live in a "faith-based" world...especially when it comes to health care.

[gateley]

44. My dad performed his surgeries at a Catholic hospital. I used to go with

him after Mass on Sundays when he made his rounds (I hung out with the switchboard operator who had drawers full of candy).

I remember nuns and priests zipping around there all the time. Crucifixes on the walls, rosaries in the gift shop, statues of saints around every corner. It seemed normal at the time because our family was Catholic. And my dad was Irish Catholic. From Boston. Where else would he operate? :7

In later years I actually worked there briefly -- in the 80's. There was no mention of religion, not a nun or priest to be found, and I think the chapel was being used as a storage room. I would guess at that time that there were no hospitals who forced the religion thing.

I'm appalled to think that it's becoming acceptable again for a hospital to promote a religion or a belief. I understand that many hospitals are religion-sponsored but that should be the extent of it. Slap whatever 'holy' name they want on the hospital, but it should stop there. Administer to the patients, take their money, period. If there's some sort of requirement for tax exemption or whatever, make religious options available if a patient requests, but keep God out of the OR and out of my hospital room.

[and-justice-for-all]

45. If it is a 'Private' institution, then yes they can get away w/ it

You can tell them to go fuck theirselves and quit or bullshit through the gawd crap.

I would rather work at Burger King then be subjected to that shit.

[Bluebear]

46. Even if they are claiming EOE? nt

[and-justice-for-all]

47. It is EOE?

Then I would say that they can not do that. If they do, then they are not EOE, they should state that they are a PRIVATE FIRM, because being EOE you can not discriminate at all.

[Bluebear]

48. Yeah, per the OP.

They certainly are trying to slice the cake a few ways here, eh? And I am with you on the Burger King thing rather than put up with this!

[Hoof Hearted]

50. At the end of the ap, right after the "respect God" paragraph, they claim EOE.

Blew me away.

Like I said upthread, It's like putting an ad in the paper requiring all applicants to posses personally as part of their own anatomy at least one fully formed testicle and then claiming not to discriminate against women.

[and-justice-for-all]

86. Turn them in..nt

[spinbaby]

51. I think it's okay

They don't demand that you actually believe in anything, they just require that you respect it. Personally, I believe in respecting all religions, so see no problem with respecting theirs.

[yurbud]

57. I would be willing to tip my hat if I see god in the hall at work (the actual guy, not statues)

[likesmountains 52]

62. oh boy, I'm in the same boat...we just had a"Benefit Meeting" where they told us

about the upcoming changes as we get fully incorporated into the CHI system..How did they shaft you out of those hours of earned benefits? I think they told us something like "Hey, don't worry."!!
We won't be switched over until 7/2008..

[Hoof Hearted]

83. Uh, be worried. Hundreds of us lost several hundred sick hours each, hours we had earned and were

on our balance just went *poof*. There are no sick hours under the new system, just PTO. Part time employees like myself lost lots of other benefits too, like disability insurance. I'm still finding out what else is gone.

We were not allowed to see the changes in benefits until they were actually enacted and upon us.

[likesmountains 52]

84. oh yea, at the meetings there are No handouts, nothing is written down...

[likesmountains 52]

85. I have 400 hours in extended medical...is that going poof?

[bigtree]

63. kicking this

would love to see you win on this one

[meow2u3]

65. Catholic Health Initiatives does not accept Federal funds

and are a nonprofit organization. They can get away with the requirement of Reverence: Having a profound spirit of awe and respect for all creation, shaping relationships to self, to one another and to God and acknowledging that we hold in trust all that has been given to us because of the religious nature of the organization.

Employers have to be secular only if they accept Federal funds or are for profit. CHI is neither.

[hedgehog]

71. I think it may be appropiate to put that phrasing in a mission statement.

Aything can go in to a mission statement. (Walmart Mission Statement : to loot the earth, ignore workers and sell as much cheap crap as we can to line our pockets.) From what you've said, the real problem here is that they are not applying these precepts to everyone who works there. Unless management wages and benfits are in line with what the floor seepers make, then they have fo=rgotten that line about "rooted in a sense of solidarity".

BTW - for anyone who thinks it proper for a cleaning woman to make minimum wage and a heart surgeon to make 6 figures: the finest surgeon in the world can't help a patient who catches a hospital borne illness. Those people who wipe down the beds and change the sheets are the first line of defense.

[porphyrian]

73. If they ever question it, tell them God told you to behave as you are, and you are just...

...respecting His wishes.

[ismnotwasm]

75. I think so

Since it's a Catholic organization. Probably depends on tax status. We have a health care organization called Crista ministries--not a bad one actually, that requires an acceptance as Jesus Christ as your Personal savior. Or at least you have to say you do. They have several long term care facilities around here, I don't know how extensive they are. To be fair, their clientele are generally also Christians, and usually choose or their families choose to be placed in a Christan organization.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

76. Which one? God, I mean.

"Man is the only animal to have discovered the One True God....several of them." Mark Twain

[Arugula Latte]

81. To that may I add:

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -- Twain.

[knitter4democracy]

79. As a former Catholic high school teacher, I say read your new health insurance, too.

In our policy, it specifically said that the insurance company would not pay for anything that compromised our fertility--even to save our lives. So, if I had a DnC for a miscarriage and the doctor accidentally sliced through and got a major artery (like happened to one of my mom's friends) and needed to take out my uterus or have me die on the table, the insurance would not pay one thin red cent for any and all of it, including the time in the hospital afterwards.

Interesting day when I read that in the teacher's lounge. No one else had bothered to read all the fine print, and they were all shocked that they'd rather we were dead than infertile.

[lonestarnot]

82. Here's another

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

Check out to see if the joint is a nonprofit or corp or llc whateva first, corporation commission here, don't know in NE. And that's not legal advise.