About religion...

[renie408]

I am by no means a religious scholar. I am actually an atheist. But I see it many times here on the DU where people seem to think that all religious belief is similar. Like all religions are really just one thing called by different names. That is wrong. Even within Christianity, there is a wide range of beliefs. That's one of the reasons that I think that people of faith have as much to lose as any atheist when it comes to allowing the intertwining of church and state. If its not YOUR church that gets into the state, you could find yourself in as much trouble as people of no church.

Anyway, Buddhists don't believe in a diety. They aren't your typical 'religion'. In fact, I have read many times that Buddhism is more of a philosophy than a religion. It is more a way of thinking about the world and ourselves and less worshipping. A lot less worshipping.

Anyway, I just wish that before people would make broad, general statements about 'religion' and 'faith', they would stop to consider that it probably doesn't apply as generally as they might think.

All religions are not the same and many of them have nothing in common.

[Mrs. Overall]

1. Amen, Sister!

[BlooInBloo]

2. Yes - that's why I don't hate on them....

... psst - the word is "deity".

[renie408]

5. Shit...you know, I ran that 'i before e except after c' thing through my head before I wrote that. n

[KitchenWitch]

3. As a member of an oft misunderstood religion - I thank you for this post

I am not Buddhist (obviously - my screenname gives my religion away), but seeing so much misinformation on here quite simply makes me very sad.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. Agreed...

Sniffa and I had this exact debate tonight. I can't generalize about the religious people of the world. Catholics are so different from Buddhists, and Buddhists are so different from Muslims, etc, etc...There's really no comparison. I think that all we can evaluate is the ways in which people live their professed faith, and how it affects others. :shrug:

[Grey]

6. You are so Right.

Thanks.

[uppityperson]

7. What is a religion, what is religious belief, what are the actions that go with it?

If you go back to basics much of them are the same, but there are many differences. Is a religion a philosophy or a worshiping of something? Is religious beliefs a way of being, or acting, or the reasons behind them?

No, beliefs are not the same, the way they are done is not the same, but I think there is a similarity behind much of it, trying to figure out the bigger picture beyond me and now.

[renie408]

10. I think they might have the same origin, i e. "Why I am here?"...

But the way each religion has sought to answer that question can be pretty diverse. And amongst religions there is a widely differing approach to something as basic as, say, violence. I also see a great variety of approaches to belief.

BTW...I am reading Walter Isaacson's biography of Ben Franklin and find the parts explaining Franklin's approach to religion really interesting. What I am getting out of it is that Franklin thought that a belief in god was 'useful' and therfore, valuable. Since it helped people be concerned about morality and civil behavior, religion was a good thing. Other than that, he had a vague belief in a deity (I spelled it right that time). I dunno, it just struck me as a weirdly practical approach to religion.

[uppityperson]

11. Just strolled through GD and see the source, incredible.

Just incredible. Appalling. Sometimes I find it hard to understand people.

Philosophy and religion are interesting things to think about indeed.

I like the diety of pie.

[renie408]

13. mmmm...pie....n/t

[rudeboy666]

8. Yes and no

The differences should be obvious and significant.

Nevertheless, all of them do seem to have a similar function i.e. in the role that they play in peoples daily lives.

[PDJane]

9. Religions differ, yes.

The major difference is those who believe there is but one God, and he is male, and those of other persuasions. The religions that follow the God of Abraham are Judaism, Christianity and Islam, in order of age. The religions differ in cant and culture, but the one God thing tends to make them less tolerant.

[renie408]

12. Makes you wonder if it is all just some weird sibling rivalry...

between those children of Abraham.

[Quantess]

14. Well said!

Great OP.

[pitohui]

15. and yet there are buddhist temples that take money, a lot of them actually

all religion IS the same at its core, a way to get money and power in exchange for air

[renie408]

16. See? This is the kind of thing that really pisses me off.

You can't say 'all' about anything. And being cynical isn't the same thing as being smart.

[pitohui]

21. i can say "all" when "all" is what i meant

i do not tailor my opinion to curry favor with liars and panderers

religion at the core is about getting money for nothing from scared people

[renie408]

26. That's it. That's the total reason for religion in the world.

Wow. That is so much simpler than all that 'why am I here' stuff. Good to know.

[roguevalley]

34. Its not the same UU are not Fundamental are not Buddhist are

not Judaism. Why the hell do people parse nuances in everything but religion? Bitterness about your own history with this shouldn't blind you to the possibility that the philosophical/religious frameworks that people have devised to explain the world, their place in it and how you should behave and how you should face death might have something to say. If they didn't, then I doubt that they would have lasted. Jains are WAY different than capitalistic-minded faiths that don't see value in the world as it is.

[JI7]

17. remember the actions of the AMish after those girls were killed

in the school ?

i look to actions more than anything. and i think the Amish can be closer to the Buddhist monks in their behavior even though their faiths are different.

[pitohui]

24. there are decent people of every faith or of no faith

having a faith or a philosophy doesn't seem to correlate at all with how decent people are, you can have a decent if naive religious person or you can have a child molestor priest who is just as religious

to give credit to the amish or buddhist or whatever religion because many of them are decent and kind, no, i give credit to the individual people who are decent and kind -- actually the majority of people are decent and kind, however, the type of person who is attracted to power and to the top layers of faith hmmm that's another story

[renie408]

27. Ok, that we can agree on.

Another thing that pisses me off is when someone says that you have to have faith to have morality. I also agree that it is the people who want to be in CHARGE of the religion that are the ones who are probably power and money hungry. I know a lot of good people who believe in their religion and find a lot of comfort and strength from it. Just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean I don't think it can work for anybody or that it does not have value.

[cali]

18. nice post, renie

and I'm just gonna disagree with you a bit, sometimes religious traditions do mix, partiularly the contmplative branches, and Buddhist, particularly Tibetan Buddhists, do a whole lot of worshipping of deities.

[renie408]

20. Like I said, I am not a religious scholar.

I am a housewife from South Carolina.

[TechBear_Seattle]

19. Not quite true

Just a minor quibble in an otherwise good post. :toast:

Buddhism acknowledges the existence of deities. The Pali Canon, which is the root of most Buddhist thought, makes frequent mention of Brahma and other gods of the early Hindu pantheon. Mahayana Buddhism, the school found mostly in China and Japan, make little distinction between gods and bodhisattva (Guan Yin is venerated as both.) Vajrayana, the dominant school of Buddhism in Tibet and Bhutan, has many ceremonies which honor gods from pre-Buddhist indigenous culture.

The distinction with Buddhism is that there is no theology holding that gods are necessary for salvation. The Buddha stated quite clearly that while the gods are worthy of the respect one would give any powerful entity, worshipping them is a form of attachment which inhibits enlightenment. While individual Buddhists or schools of Buddist thought might not believe in deities, they do have a part in Buddhist cosmology and scripture. It would be more correct to say that Buddhism, as a core tenet, holds that the existence of deities and a personal belief in deities are both irrelevant to enlightenment.

As for Buddhism being a religion: It seeks to answer the same fundamental questions of life, existence and purpose that are asked by all religions. The answers it provides are spiritual in nature; with the absence of any empirical method for evaluating them as a disinterested third party, these answers can only be taken on faith and personal testimony. And lastly, Buddhism exists in the same social sphere that, in other cultures, is filled by Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Shinto and other acknowledged religions. I say, if it walks like a religion and quacks like a religion.... :hi:

[renie408]

22. Check 'religious scholar' comment upthread. n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

33. Which is why I was being pendantic

I've taken several religious studies classes in college (they were offered as part of the Philosophy department, which provided an interesting view) and my own spiritual journey has been... well, let's just say I took the scenic route.

[papau]

25. Well said - indeed there are a lot of Christian Buddhists out there n/t

:-)

[upi402]

23. Buddhism; there are many paths up the mountain. Just get going...

Buddhism is like the 12 step programs like AA. 'Open door' and not threatened by the existence of other paradigms of spiritual belief and expression. Most Buddhists I know are more Christian in their action than the Christians I know. Acceptance, tolerance and humility used to be Christian traits when I was a kid. NOT NOW!!!

I like it and love going to temples -burn a few sticks of incense, place a lotus and a little yellow candle. I don't meditate to Buddha or anything, just like the feeling in the temples (or wats). Then I jet, maybe to another one!

[renie408]

28. My exposure to Buddhism is through some books I read

a few years ago and I listent to the Zencast podcast on my ipod while I am working. I like the 'feel' of Buddhism. I never read or heard anything about deities and would probably have been turned off if I had. So, I guess I am glad I hadn't.

[upi402]

30. Nope, just the Siddharta Gautama to Buddha deal, as far as I know it's deity-free!

Siddhartha was a nice read when I was fresh out of high school and on the road.
The Tibetans started the 8 wrathful deities - sworn to protect and defend Buddism... yada yada

Theravada is atheistic, Mahayana is kind of polytheistic I hear. (No idea really)

This stuff is where I go away:

Six Realms of Existence:
1. Hell-beings
2. Hungry ghosts
3. Animals
4. Humans
5. Anti-gods or demigods
6. Gods

[puebloknot]

29. I just posted at this link, before reading this. Great minds, eh? :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1942091&mesg_id=1956425

[Riktor]

31. I emphatically disagree

The purpose of any organized religion is to "bring order to chaos". In that sense, Buddhism is no different in its ultimate goal than that of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. Furthermore, Buddhism's lack of a deity or pantheon does make it exempt from the same shortcomings of deistic religions. While Christians, Jews, and Muslims bicker over the true nature of God, the various sects of Buddhism have quarreled, and continue to quarrel, over who possesses the true path to Enlightenment.

Even the Dalai Lama, revered as a humanitarian here in the west, has condemned the worship of Dorje Shugden for the following inane reasons:

(1) Shugden is a worldly spirit.
(2) Shugden practice has the potential to promote sectarianism.
(3) Shugden practice harms the health of the Dalai Lama and is contrary to the interests of Tibet and the Tibetan people.
(4) The Nechung State Oracle (bound by Padmasambhava) stated that it is harmful.
(5) Tibetan people using divination have received bad omens to the effect that Shugden is harming them.
(6) The Fifth Dalai Lama said: He will talk over and over again and not stop to say: Shugden is a negative force. And the Fourteenth Dalai Lama said that he sees himself in the footsteps of the Thirteenth and Fifth Dalai Lamas.

[pingzing58]

32. True there is no God in Buddhism only our commonality. I applaud your journey on the Noble Path.

[mudesi]

35. Religion is a fancy name for irrational superstition

It doesn't really matter what religion one is referring to. Any belief based on no evidence is, by definition, an irrational superstition.

[cynatnite]

36. Judaism, Islam, Christianity and others do have one thing in common...

Mythology. I don't see those religions any different than the Roman or Greek gods in that regard.