Ray McGovern: So Who’s Afraid of ...

[babylonsister]

the Israel Lobby?

The title begs to be moved, so judge for yourselves. I personally think there has to be a place on DU to read this for the people who want to.

Posted primarily because I love Ray McGovern, and 9 times out of 10 agree with him.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/27489

[orleans]

1. i like ray mcgovern too. but i have to read it when i'm more awake. n/t

[PuraVidaDreamin]

2. woah

Ray McGovern is a gem. I always learn something
new with his writings.

[Swamp Rat]

3. ¡Pura vida!

¿Cómo estás? :hug:

[TomClash]

4. Get ready

to be labelled an anti-semite or self-hating jew for posting this.

A good piece by Ray.

[cali]

6. You know what I see both here and at 'kos?

The pre-emptive 'you'll be called an anti-semite', in order to shut down any debate, at least as often as I see anyone being called an anti-semite. And guess what? It's exactly the same fucking thing. It pisses me off to see criticism of Israel being labeled as anti-semitic, and it pisses me off to see the flip side of the coin. Both are bullshit.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

11. Sorry, that's as anecdotal as my

observation- and personal observations, neither mine nor yours is anything but that.

Your vile comment; "have fun hangin' with Daniel Pipes" is truly a reflection on who you are, son, and it ain't pretty. Pretty disgusting, but not pretty. Let's deconstruct your little commentand expose it to some good old fashioned sunshine. By telling me to have fun hangin' with Pipes, you were doing precisely what you whined about in your first post: Calling someone a bigot. Can you spell hypocrisy. And not just garden variety, run of the mill hypocrisy, but the big, ugly kind.

You know damn well that I oppose the occupation and oppression of Palestine and the Palestinian people. I have hundreds of posts to that effect, and dozens of OPs, and I know you're familiar with my posts.

You really are a piece of work. I'll leave it your imagination exactly what I mean by that.

[TomClash]

12. See what I mean?

Thank you for proving my point.

[cali]

13. Let's get this straight, instead of your twisting the truth to

fit your own scenario. YOU attacked me. My initial post to you was unremarkable and not insulting or unpleasant. It was merely an observation. You made the nasty comment, and when I had the temerity to point it out, you accuse me. Cute.

And you might note that your post attacking me has been deleted.

[TomClash]

14. You didn't like what I wrote so you ran to the mods

I won't stoop to that level. You are entitled to say what you like. You called my post "bullshit" - that's not an attack?

[cali]

15. Are you constitutionally incapable of

seeing things honestly? You're really scraping here. This is what I wrote in my first post:

"It pisses me off to see criticism of Israel being labeled as anti-semitic, and it pisses me off to see the flip side of the coin. Both are bullshit."

I said both tactics, both frequently used as a tactic to short circuit debate, are bullshit. You want to see that as an attack, fine, but it's hardly even remotely in the same league as calling someone a bigot.

You might want to just lay down your shovel and stop digging that hole of yours.

[TomClash]

16. I never called you a bigot

I simply proved that some people, including you, are quick to play the antisemitism card. And now you just called me dishonest.

So today in a few posts over an hour or so you have obliquely called me an antisemite and then followed it up by calling me dishonest just because I said you were hangin' with Daniel Pipes. Wow.

That's all the time I have for you today. Thanks for playing!

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

19. 'just because I said you were hangin' with Daniel Pipes'

You mean you said that Cali is hanging with Daniel Pipes? OMG, that's not so much dishonest, as so far off as to be HILARIOUS!!!!

BTW, Daniel Pipes is disgusting; not only a warmonger, but has the most vile bigoted attitudes to immigrants in Europe. I don't think there is a single person on DU who would be hanging with him. And frankly implying that everyone who disagrees with you is hanging with Daniel Pipes is a bit like the Right saying that all liberals are 'Communists' or 'supporters of terrorism'.

[cali]

20. Actually, you have a point

I should have just laughed at TC, instead of getting pissed off.
Thanks.

[LeftishBrit]

18. You are right there!

I'm not very familiar with Kos; but definitely here. It is a way of stifling disagreement. "If you disagree with me, you're calling me an anti-semite!" It's just as much a form of moral blackmail as saying, "If you disagree with me, you're anti-semitic!"

[lwcon]

21. Absolutely true

I've seen far more I/P discussions with the pre-emptive "someone's gonna yell 'anti-semitism'" strike than discussions where anyone actually claims anti-semitism.

[cali]

5. He's a mixed bag

Quite often he's on target- as I believe he is about the Liberty, and quite often he omits important info and takes stuff out of context to further his arguments.

The casus belli for the '67 war was the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran, which was a de facto and internationally recognized act of war. McGovern is surely aware of this, yet neglects to include this info, and that Nasser ordered U.N. troops to leave the Sinai.

Was Egypt planning to attack? Hard to know. Did Egypt commit and act of war against Israel? Yes.

And how powerful was the Israel Lobby in 1967. We know that U.S. support for Israel ramped up in that year, and prior to that had been less strong and one sided. Was that due to the Israel lobby? In part, surely. But other factors came into play.

AIPAC needs to be held to account and even 40 years later we deserve the truth about the Liberty, but painting the 1967 war as a war of aggression on the part of Israel, and not as debateable is to make a poor argument.

[mmonk]

7. Yes, AIPAC has too much influence.

Also, from what I've heard, so do alot of other organizations such as the ATC. I've also heard and read Saudi Arabia has a large lobby and even China. The only ones who don't seem to be average Americans (we couldn't influence foreign or trade policy).

[JohnyCanuck]

8. If German war criminals from the WW11 era are still hunted down today,

shouldn't the Israeli war criminals who allegedly knowingly shot up a US war ship and strafed crew trying to launch lifeboats be also tried for war crimes?

New revelations in attack on American spy ship
Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident

By John Crewdson | Tribune senior correspondent
October 2, 2007

SNIP

The transcript published by the Jerusalem Post bore scant resemblance to the one that in 1967 rolled off the teletype machine behind the sealed vault door at Offutt Air Force Base in Omaha, where Steve Forslund worked as an intelligence analyst for the 544th Air Reconnaissance Technical Wing, then the highest-level strategic planning office in the Air Force.

"The ground control station stated that the target was American and for the aircraft to confirm it," Forslund recalled. "The aircraft did confirm the identity of the target as American, by the American flag.

"The ground control station ordered the aircraft to attack and sink the target and ensure they left no survivors."

Forslund said he clearly recalled "the obvious frustration of the controller over the inability of the pilots to sink the target quickly and completely."

"He kept insisting the mission had to sink the target, and was frustrated with the pilots' responses that it didn't sink."

Nor, Forslund said, was he the only member of his unit to have read the transcripts. "Everybody saw these," said Forslund, now retired after 26 years in the military

SNIP

The transcripts Block remembered seeing "were teletypes, way beyond Top Secret. Some of the pilots did not want to attack," Block said. "The pilots said, 'This is an American ship. Do you still want us to attack?'

"And ground control came back and said, 'Yes, follow orders.'"

Gotcher and Forslund agreed with Block that the Jerusalem Post transcript was not at all like what they remember reading.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/printedition/tuesday/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,1050179.story?page=1

[cali]

9. And how about the American war criminals

who shot down an Iranian airliner killing 290 including 66 children? Or any of number of other war crimes committed by nations where the perpetrators haven't been held accountable? The sad fact is that crimes like these aren't all that singular.