Gotbaum Death - US Air had overbooked and given away her seat

[RamboLiberal]

-----

......”On Sept. 28, Carol Gotbaum arrived in Phoenix at 12:18 p.m. She had about 45 minutes before her connecting flight, and according to both the police and the Gotbaums’ lawyer, Mr. Manning, she may have had something to eat and drink. According to the police report, Officer Terri Klepper, who would eventually search Ms. Gotbaum, told investigators that she “smelled strongly of intoxicating beverage on her breath.”

Ms. Gotbaum checked in at 1:05 for a 1:30 flight, according to the police report, but the plane was overbooked and her seat had already been given up. She phoned her husband on her BlackBerry, and returned to the ticket counter several times to complain.

Around 2:30 p.m., Ms. Gotbaum asked about using another passenger’s ticket to get on a 2:58 flight for which she had been given a standby reservation — a man had apparently offered to give her his seat — and when she was refused, she exploded.

“She kept on yelling: ‘I’m not a terrorist. I’m a sick mother. I need help,’” said Omar Guerrero, who works at a sunglasses stand in the airport and saw the outburst. Ms. Gotbaum then took off down the concourse hallway.

-----

Another airport employee said he saw her kneel on the floor and bang her hands against it, then empty her purse. She hurled her BlackBerry, ran up an incline toward the security area, stopped, and began bending forward several times, flailing her arms and, according to the police report, screaming

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/nyregion/06gotbaum.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

[sasquatch]

1. I still say they strangled her to death

Murdering thugs need to be put to death.

[Richard Steele]

15. Has anyone in history ever strangled theirself with a pair of handcuffs? nm

[MADem]

23. She was chained to a table. It might have been the chain, and not the cuffs. Or the table, for

that matter: http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Forensic_expert_Impossible_for_woman_in_1002.html

“According to investigators, it appeared as though Ms. Gotbaum had possibly tried to manipulate the handcuffs from behind her to the front, got tangled up in the process, and they ended up around her neck area,” Hill said.

However, "Attorney Michael Manning, who was hired by Gotbaum's family to monitor the police investigation, said it doesn't seem possible she could have killed herself."

"She was handcuffed behind her back and shackled to a table," Manning said. "It doesn't make sense that she could have physically managed to strangle herself."

According to a guest on CBS News's The Early Show, forensic pathologist Daniel J. Spitz, "It's really not conceivable that she would be able to use the handcuffs that are holding her hands behind her back to cause a compressive force to her neck," but the chain running from the cuffs to the bench might conceivably have done it. "The autopsy is going to need to be done to confirm there was a compressive force to neck and that the cause of death is asphyxiation. It is also going to need to exclude that drugs or alcohol played a role or she had some unknown natural disease which played a role."

[never_get_over_it]

81. Ok if ANYONE reading this

Can put their hands behind their back and raise them up and around their neck - from the back please please post here - it just isn't possible - I would think if you were trying something like that you would go to the feet which would at least keep your arms going in the right direction - but of course if she was shackled to a table this isn't likely either....

There is no doubt she was very upset and flipped out - and there is also no doubt to me that she could NOT have strangled herself with her handcuffs if her hands were cuffed behind her back....

something is SO rotten here - and it is too bad that this alcohol treatment issue may make some think oh she was a whacko and probably did kill herself - blah blah blah

[MADem]

102. A lot of people pull their knees up to their chin and try to go under

their ass to get the handcuffs in front. Most can't do it, but a lot try.

The shackle that kept her in place was a chain that could have been long enough to asphyxiate her.

They aren't saying she strangled herself with her handcuffs, they're saying it was the chain, or the action of tangling the chain around her neck might have caused compression against the table.

They also aren't saying suicide yet, either. It could have been accidental.

Time will tell. The cops let the family's forensic guy get first autopsy crack. You'd think they wouldn't go that route if they were engaged in a cover-up.

But who knows at this point...

[Zywiec]

28. Who would put the murdering thugs to death?

More murdering thugs?

[sasquatch]

73. Hmm...Good question, but can corruption be tolerated

I'm having the same internal questioning and reflection that the characters were having in the movie Boondock Saints.

[Didereaux]

2. You can't bring her back to life, but you can do this...

Boycott, and I mean BOYCOTT US AIR. If you have influence at work concering booking flights, don't use US Air. If it means arriving a couple hours late at a farther gate on you holiday trip, then so be it, but boycott US Air.

A boycott widely supported is not only the most effective tool we have, it is almost the last one.

[Bluebear]

4. 'she “smelled strongly of intoxicating beverage on her breath.”

If that is true, it is not USAirways' fault. Federal Air Regulations say that it is illegal for an airline to fly a passenger who appears to be intoxicated.

[Didereaux]

6. my gawd talk about...

well the story I read said she lost it at the check-i when she was told she had missed the boarding time. then the story became she was belligerent. then the story became she had been drinking. Hasn't it even occured to you to put just a smidgeon of doubt into each official version? I am one of the worst, I am told, for being a chronic 'defense' lawyer(no I am not even assoc with the legal system) but even I wait until it appears all the 'official' cover stories have been spun before I begin apologizing and excusing and extenuating.

Now it's time to turn that gun towards my boycott suggestion: Doesn't it also seem premature? No, it has an ulterior reason, justified in my mind at any rate, the airlines in the past couple of years have completely gone stupid with their over-booking. So if such as that incidentally caused the death of a paranoid delusional drunk having an epileptic fit it would still not detract from the fact that one by one the airlines have got to cease the over-booking. The extra stress it lays on passengers after they have already run the gamut of retarded morons employed by the TSA, and survived the former hotel desk clerks now armed wit machine guns and employed on the cheap by the airports with tax dollars...it is time to lay into the airlines! period.

Besides as a secondary benefit you will gain the esperience and courage to maybe take on a Conressman or three later on.

see? maybe I am not as irrational as the first three glimpses gave you to believe. heh

[Bluebear]

7. So you would be comfortable, then, having nonrefundable tickets?

So that when any passenger shows up, for whatever reason, and the seat goes vacant, they lose all their money?

As far as "retarded morons" of the TSA, they work for a living, as do thousands of unionized airline employees, the ones you would hurt when you "lay into the airlines" with your "ulterior reasons".

[MADem]

26. To say nothing of the poor NON union airline workers...! NT

[KittyWampus]

135. You.Are.Wrong. There was one incomplete story which was then followed by more details

NONE of which contradict each other.

The woman was a relapsed suicidal alchoholic who should not have flown alone.

Her family had the money and opportunity to have someone (her husband) with her.

[funflower]

9. I think the story said she bumped due to overbooking.

[Bluebear]

10. If she was involuntarily denied boarding, she has the opportunity for compensation

Don't get me wrong though, this woman was in a horrible mental state, on the way to rehab, and should have been given every consideration. On first glance it appears the police did not guard her safety. My comment is to the guy who has the "ulterior reason" of boycotting the airlines, which is absurd in this argument.

[Orsino]

21. HAD the opportunity. n/t

[Pavulon]

71. Read the ticket jacket..

The airlines do not have to compensate you is they bump you. They just have to make a best effort to get you on some flight at some point that will get you where you going.

Buying refundable tickets helps this problem. But they cost more.

[Bluebear]

83. Yes, they certainly do have to compensate you, by law.

Under the DOT's involuntary bumping rules, airlines must give passengers a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets a seat on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Among the criteria used by carriers to determine who gets bumped: time of check-in (last check-ins are prime candidates), price of ticket and frequent-flier status.

Here's the denied boarding compensation prescribed:

If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.

If the airline's substitute flight is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the carrier must pay you an amount equal to your one-way fare to your final destination, with a $200 maximum.

If the substitute flight is scheduled to arrive at your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally, or if the airline doesn't make any substitute travel arrangements for you), the compensation doubles to 200 percent of your fare, or a maximum of $400.

You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight within a year. The denied-boarding compensation is essentially payment for your inconvenience.

[Pavulon]

84. $400 dollars

would never have covered the problems I had when traveling. They do not give cash. I was only offered vouchers.

This assumes you are bumped due to the airlines fault, not because you fail to register, etc.

Delays are not compensated, only cancels.

The refundable ticket is the only way to fly..

[Bluebear]

85. It is not a travel voucher, they have to give you a check

This is the law, now whether people know what the law is is obviously another story.

[Pavulon]

86. Must be new..

I never got anything from them other than vouchers as of late 05. International was even worse. Although it was easier to get around europe with other means if air travel got screwed up.

[Bluebear]

87. Enacted in 1978.

[Pavulon]

88. Ahh.

I flew an average of 250,000 miles a year from 02 to early 05, and was screwed over in many languages and countries. I was never offered more than vouchers or a hotel or rental car.

However I never really asked either.

Good info.

[MADem]

104. Turns out she wasn't denied boarding. She was way too late. The plane had disengaged from the

jetway and was about to push back by the time she arrived at the counter. It was a feeder airline, too, MESA AIR, that operates the express flights. I provided a cite WAAAY downthread about this.

[MADem]

24. She was late to check in, too. They have a thirty minute policy. NT

[lligrd]

121. According To The Actual Police Report

another officer said he didn't smell alcohol. And since when does having a drink mean you should be arrested. Nobody has accused her of being drunk.

[MADem]

22. WHAT??? It could have been any airline that called the airport police on her.

And she was LATE to the gate. By five minutes, but late nonetheless.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/US_Airways/checkin.php
The cut-off time for checking in is 30 minutes before departure time.

No one deserves to die like that, but to blame the airline for following their established policy (which wasn't a secret or surprise--it's posted on their website and common throughout the industry) is just absurd.

This woman was unwell. Plainly. She overreacted, badly, in an environment where that sort of behavior is absolutely not tolerated, and sadly, she ended up dead.

[maseman]

57. They all do the same thing

What are you going to do boycott the whole airline industry? They just overbooked a Continental flight of mine last week.

[Hekate]

3. That poor woman had a complete meltdown, didn't she? The story just gets worse. nt

[pnwmom]

8. The saddest part is that she had the connecting flight

instead of an earlier direct flight because she wanted to be able to take her three kids to school that morning.

Those poor kids.

:cry:

[Gormy Cuss]

70. It's also sad that the airlines give up seats for connecting passengers so readily.

Do people normally change plans mid trip? It's utterly absurd. There was a time when passengers would do this as a way of getting cheaper fares but I was under the impression that the airlines had changed their policies to make it difficult to pull off that trick.

[pnwmom]

75. That's true -- I hadn't thought of that before.

She was only 5 minutes late and they KNEW she was in the airport. Makes it even more awful.

[RamboLiberal]

89. I've been wondering if they gave her a boarding pass

in NY for the connecting flight in Phoenix. Many passengers assume that automatically guarantees your seat.

Also as to being drunk - she'd have had to drink really fast to get drunk in approx 30-40 minutes between flights

[MADem]

105. The airline did nothing wrong. The plane had already detached from the jetway.

She was way too late. AND, she was taking a feeder airline to her destination.

Paul Skellon, a spokesman for Mesa Airlines, which operates U.S. Airways Express flights, said that Ms. Gotbaum was not denied boarding her flight. She simply arrived too late, he said. The door to the gate had already closed, the jetway had disengaged from the plane, and the plane was about to push back, he said.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/a-new-yorkers-puzzling-death-in-phoenix/

[Gormy Cuss]

110. Whether the airline did anything "wrong" wasn't the issue in my post.

Were they wrong in terms of enforcing their rules? No. Is the rule asinine for connecting passengers? Yes. DD carriers know full well which passengers are coming from connecting flights and those passengers could be treated differently in term of check in. It's a business decision to ignore the fact that people with connections are the least likely to be no shows. If in fact Ms. Gotbaum showed up 25 minutes before the flight, then I reiterate: it's an asinine policy for connecting passengers. I've been on enough planes held at the gate for a handful of connecting passengers in the past. Now flights are so oversold that airlines probably don't feel compelled to do so as much. So yes, MESA did nothing wrong but it's still sad that connecting passengers aren't given extra consideration in this regard.

[MADem]

122. They don't always know, though. Often the feeder airline computers are NOT hooked to

the main carriers. Her connector was with MESA AIR (contracted for their Express flights), not United, with a 45 minute time period to make connections--in a small, easily navigable airport.

The smart passenger goes to the appropriate gate, checks in first, and THEN goes to have a drink.


By the time this poor distressed and unwell woman showed up at the gate, the flight was loaded, the door to the jetway LOCKED, and the jetway disengaged from the aircraft. Unless the MESA AIR rep was lying, too. I don't think he was. FWIW.

Are you suggesting they should have delayed the flight a half hour to first, hook up the jetway again, find someone to unlock the door, take the substitute passenger off the plane, and seat her? And THAT's assuming the plane could get back in line easily (good luck with THAT), having missed their take-off window?

It ain't like driving a bus. There's a lot of coordination that has to happen to get a plane in the air. And that thirty minute requirement for that puddle jumper likely entails five minutes to load the plane, and twenty five minutes to fart around on the taxiways waiting for the tower to tell them they can go. And they factor it into their requirements. Gee, how DARE they....

But here's the most important bit. This woman changed her ticket at the last minute from a direct flight to this two stage thing with the puddle jumper at the end. It's entirely likely that MESA AIR had NO IDEA that she was coming, and as far as they knew, she was ORIGINATING at Phoenix. I've done similar last-minute changes myself in the past, and been told to get my ass to the gate and check in immediately, because they won't otherwise know I'm coming.

Air travel isn't like driving a bus, but it IS like taking a bus. If you aren't there when the bus leaves the station, then it's on you. If you cut it too close, you may miss your ride. It's on the passengers, too, to decide if they want to race between gates, knowing full well that flight delays and cockups are at an all time high, or to arrange their travel so that they have more time and can connect in a leisurely fashion. That may require farting around an airport for an hour or three, when people would rather just keep on going.

After all, the prices are like Greyhound, and you get what you pay for. I never travel without a good, thick book for that very reason.

[Gormy Cuss]

124. You're focusing on what seasoned travelers understand about air travel.

know enough to take nothing for granted with connections, but I've been through the drill hundreds of times. I'm saying it's asinine to have a system that relies on all the passengers having the same familiarity with how to navigate airports and an understanding that a confirmed reservation for a trip with a connection to a regional carrier doesn't mean diddly until you check in at the connecting gate. It's as dumb as not explaining that if seats aren't reserved in advance there's no guarantee that a party will be seated together.

Again, I am not suggesting anything should have been done differently for this specific case because a) I wasn't there and don't know what transpired and b)I know this is how it's done by some airlines. As you noted, the prices are so low one can't expect premium attention. I only object to adults being treated like so much slow witted cattle. I doubt that the prices would need to be much higher in order to make the process more passenger-friendly. I see that you relate that you've been told to book it to a gate for a connection. I wonder if Ms. Gotbaum was so warned.

[MADem]

132. Well, this woman wasn't a neophyte when it came to air travel, I don't think.

She was from South Africa, lived and had a career in London as a buyer for a trendy store, apparently visited her home and father frequently, lived in NYC, and had flown to rehab at least once before. I'd guess she was a reasonably seasoned traveller, herself, unless she went by boat everywhere up to that point. She wasn't a child, either--she was in her mid forties.

Look, I feel sad for her, no one deserves to die in that situation.

I think there should be a good investigation into this incident, but I find the people who are so eager to BLAME a crappy little feeder airline for this incident way off the mark. They've stated that the jetway was disconnected and the door closed and locked by the time she turned up. The airline website says you have to be there thirty minutes prior, and she wasn't there.

If you're going to "blame" anyone, I'd say start with the family that let this woman fly unescorted to fucking REHAB. I mean, really. "Gee, honey, go to an airport full of bars, get on a plane that serves booze to passengers, fly to ANOTHER airport full of bars, and switch planes--on your way to a place where they'll take AWAY your booze." Not terribly supportive, if you ask me. Not terribly smart, either. What, really, did they expect this stress-out booze addict to do? Exercise "control?" If she could do that, she wouldn't be on her way to rehab...

[Gormy Cuss]

137. Pardon me, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else on this thread.

I'm not trying assign blame on the airline so much as pointing out the larger issue of passenger-unfriendly policies of airlines and airports.

As I wrote earlier, I know not to take anything for granted but I can't speak for her. In my experience with connections to DD carriers on domestic flights it was far more common to have my initial checkin qualify all the way through, and when it wasn't the airline personnel usually (not always) alerted me.
Has anyone from either airline made a statement that Ms. Gotbaum was advised to that effect? They may not be required to do so, but it would a bad customer service practice not to do so especially for the larger carrier.

As for your comments on the family and rehab I have no way of understanding why they made those choices and therefore am in no position to assign blame. I do know that trying to stay one step ahead of the actions of someone in a fragile state is very hard and that hovering over the person is sometimes more stressful for that person than letting them have some breathing room.

[MADem]

138. No, I am not confusing. I'm using "You're" in a generic sense.

I do note that there are people on this thread who are trying to blame the airline, and I think that the generic 'you' (not the YOU you) who are doing so are off the mark. I think that is just absurd.

The airline didn't strangle this woman, and they didn't "have it in" for her. They followed their regular procedure. She didn't arrive at the gate on time, and she pitched a fit in the terminal. That's not the airline's fault.

This woman DID change her ticket, from a direct flight to a major carrier/puddlejumper two leg ticket. That's where the problem may have started. The puddlejumper may not have been hooked up to the major carrier's computers, even though they handled their feeder traffic. It could have been that they didn't issue her two boarding passes. Even if they did, she got to the gate after the jetway door had been locked and the jetway had already been disengaged from the plane. The airline spokesman said that was the case, and I don't think he was lying. I've never seen ANY airline re-hook up the jetway after that's happened. And their website does say they have a THIRTY minute--not 20 or 25 minute CUTOFF. Now, that doesn't mean that they START boarding then--it's when they finish boarding.

As for the woman, who knows, save her family, and maybe not even them. I simply think it's a shitty idea to let a woman with a booze problem travel on planes full of booze, originating at airports full of bars, alone. It's a recipe for disaster.

[mainer]

116. They close jetways 25 minutes before scheduled departure?

I highly doubt it. There's many a flight I've been on when they didn't even start boarding until 20 minutes before departure.

[MADem]

120. I don't "highly doubt it." It's a commuter. They have to get in line behind other a/c.

Then they have to snake their way around the airfield and wait for the tower to give them the go-ahead.

The departure time was likely the "wheels in the well" time, not the "push away from the gate" time.

[orleans]

5. this story is so sad...and maddening! n/t

[Bobbieo]

11. The bottom line is the woman never should have been allowed to travel by herself.

She was known to be suicidal and was on her way to a rehab clinic and of course she was going to get a drink at the first sign of stress!

That is exactly what my own daughter would have done under the circumstances. She was not to be trusted if there was any way she could get a drink or two. etc. The last hurrah before the road to sobriety. She died of alcoholic cirrhosis.

[cali]

12. I completely agree.

The police may well be criminally negligent, but the FACT that her family let her travel alone is sad and disgraceful.

[hedgehog]

63. I think it's the other way around.

The family was in denial and should never have let her travel alone. Criminally negligent may bit too harsh. Airports aren't staffed with psychiatric social workers or eemergency room personnel. The cops followed their normal procedures, but those procedures aren't designed to identifyu and treat people in a physical crisis from alcohol and/or drugs. Maybe they thought they had a belligerent drunk on their hands who would settle down in a while as she sobered up.

[KittyWampus]

136. I think the husband loved his wife, but her problems were beginning to weigh on the family dynamics

very heavily.

From the sounds of it, they were a great couple but she had been having severe problems. Post partum depression was also a part of it.

It begins to wear on you, dealing with family members who are mentally unstable or drug addicted.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. I just read the whole article and it's heartbreaking and agree with you, she never

should have gone alone. This kept running through my head as I read on.

This is really a tearjerker. :cry:

And Bobbieo, I am so sorry about your daughter. The love of my life was an alcholic, trying to get his act together but too late. He developed cirrhosis, wound up in the hospital and died of a staph infection.

:hug:

[Bobbieo]

17. The really sad thing about this story is that the family had the means

to afford a baby sitter for the children so her husband is the one who should have escorted her to the clinic.

When you live with an alcoholic you learn they are not to be trusted under any cirsumstaces.

[cali]

18. Yep. I lived with an alcoholic lover some years ago and

trusted him again and again and again. It just kept breaking my heart, but I was very young. This family had all the resources to ensure that this woman arrived at her destination safely- and they sent her thousands of miles away, in a stressful situation, alone.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

37. Knowing a great deal about the wealthy and privileged in NYC (I'm from the city),

I would think that they had a live-in nanny. They might have had one as the article doesn't mention who would be watching the children when she was away at rehab. The article mentions she took her 2 older children to school so someone had to be watching the 3 year old when she left.

There are a few aspects of Carol's story that I can personally relate to. She was an older mother at 45 with 3 young children, the oldest being 7. She suffered from post-partum depression with her last. I was a first time mother at 35 and had post-partum depression and by the time I had my second child, and last, I was 39. Due to her age with her first child coming 5 years after her marriage, I would bet even money that she there were fertility problems, which I had. That places a great deal of stress on a marriage. Prior to having children, my husband and I lived a spontaneous life together as Carol and Noah did. We had lots of fun. My marriage was never the same after facing the challenge of infertility.

Add to that, it Is Not Easy being an older mother. When you have lived an independent life for so long and no matter how much you adore your children, there can be a feeling of being bogged down with a tremendous loss of freedom. The guilt of those feelings can be very heavy. I Know.

Even though the article states that her husband was an involved parent, how involved could he have been if he was physically present for only a few days a week? She was deserted, a stranger in a strange land.

I can absolutely see how she became depressed and drinking to drown her pain. I was very depressed, felt unloved, and although not taking to drink or drugs, I acted out in other ways.

Noah knew how high risk she was and yet he didn't take a couple of days out of his life to accompany her. It seems that he was absent when she lived and was absent when she died.

:cry:

[Tatiana]

61. I totally agree and thanks for that analysis.

The more I find out about this story, the more I just want to :cry:

It's obvious this poor woman was in distress and recognized her need for help. I cannot believe her husband left her to travel alone like that.

[blondeatlast]

52. I completely agree with you. In this case, there is plenty of blame to go around.

And I am so very sorry about your daughter. :hug:

[orleans]

97. i'm sorry to hear about your daughter. that must have been very hard for both of you. n/t

[mvccd1000]

14. Airlines have been doing this for decades...

... I was bumped from my first "oversold" flight 19 years ago. The offending airline then booked me first class on the next flight going to my destination, AND offered me a free round-trip ticket to anywhere in the continental US that they flew.

Ever since then, I've always offered to give up my seat if they are overbooked. I've been taken up on that offer two or three times in the intervening years.

While that may not have been a viable option for Ms. Gotbaum, my point is merely that this is not some new, insidious plot by a particular airline; it is just the way that industry has operated for decades.

If you're going to boycott US Airways, do it for their dismal on-time ratings, or their outrageous percentage of lost luggage - NOT for following the standard operating procedure of the entire airline industry.

Personally, I always try to fly US Airways when I can - they ARE my hometown carrier!

[MADem]

31. She was five minutes past the cut off, though.

The airline had a thirty minute policy. If she'd gotten there five minutes sooner, she would have gotten her seat, and it wouldn't have been given to someone on standby or with a lower cost ticket. She detoured to go have a drink...sad.

[RamboLiberal]

90. There's no proof yet she detoured to have a drink

and I say a so what if she had a drink. It was lunch time - perhaps she needed to eat as well. Prove to me first she was drunk.

Even for an alcoholic it's dumb but not against the law to have a drink at the airport. Don't want people flying drunk and causing problems - prohibit alcohol sales at airport and on the planes.

[MADem]

101. Uh, no one is SAYING it's 'against the law' for even an alcoholic to have a drink

What is being noted, though, is that she was an ALKY enroute to TREATMENT. Again. So it's not "so what." You have to ask why she wasn't accompanied, when clearly, the family was wealthy enough to be able to afford an escort, if a relative couldn't go with her.

Travelling alone. Instead of with an escort who could monitor her behavior, which was irrational--see, that's why she was going to rehab (again). Her husband told the airport authorities that she had serious problems, but they got the word way too late.

But yeah, that's a great idea--get rid of alcohol at the airports, just in case alcoholics enroute to treatment might pass by...

:eyes:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

19. The Phoenix police will pay big time

for Carol Gotbaum's death.

[Bobbieo]

20. This all could have been avoided if she would have had an escort.

Alot of people are going to pay for this tragedy and that is the sad, sad part.

[malaise]

27. It could also have been avoided if airlines kept seats for

confirmed passengers on connecting flights. She arrived 45 minutes before her flight and her seat was sold. But then it's all about greed.

[LisaL]

30. No, the article doesn't say she arrived 45 minutes before

her flight.

[malaise]

33. I travel a lot

particularly between the islands and no airline will sell my confirmed connection until 15 minutes before boarding. Recently I had a connection between Antigua and Montserrat but my flight to Antigua was late. I arrived half an hour before my flight but the silly airline closed the flight early. They had to put all of us up in a hotel overnight.

She had about 45 minutes before her connecting flight, and according to both the police and the Gotbaums’ lawyer, Mr. Manning, she may have had something to eat and drink.

[MADem]

41. She checked in 25 minutes before, and the airline policy is 30, per their website. She was late.

Every airline is different. Some are twenty, some thirty, for domestic flights. This airline had a thirty minute cutoff, and this woman didn't meet it. She had 45 minutes, but she spent at least 20 of them in a bar.

[pnwmom]

76. But this was a connecting flight. In a big airport 45 minutes is a short

time to get from one flight to another.

I've never not been let on a connecting flight -- the computer knows you're in the airport.

I've never heard of the 30 cutoff applying to connecting flights -- only originating flights.

[MADem]

100. That airport isn't all that big--I've connected there, it's well laid out and easy.

We have to ask--was it the same airline? Did she have a boarding pass?

The thirty minute timeframe is ON their website. It wouldn't matter if she was 'connecting' and wasn't using the same airline--as far as they would be concerned, she'd be originating out of Phoenix.

And she did have time to hit the airport bar...

[MADem]

34. They do, if you arrive thirty minutes before the flight is scheduled to depart.

That's on their website. She was in the AIRPORT forty five minutes prior. But she stopped for drinks, and arrived at the boarding gate and checked in twenty five minutes prior.

It's not about greed. It's about running an airline efficiently. Of course, if we hold everyone's seat for them up to a minute before take-off, we'll have crowds of angry and hopeful assholes milling around every gate, hoping to get a standby shot, and flights will double in cost, at least. And then, the jerk who shows up thirty seconds before departure will have a beef.

Does that sound like a plan?

It's not THAT onerous to show up a half hour ahead of time. It's on their website--plainly. I'll bet it is on their tickets, too.

[malaise]

38. I didn't suggest a minute n/t

[MADem]

42. Look, the airline KEPT her seat. For thirty minutes prior. She didn't

arrive at the gate on time. It's sad, but it isn't the airline's fault.

Maybe her family shouldn't have sent her to treatment on the cheap, and had someone, anyone--an in-law, a friend--escort her to her destination. You have to wonder how many drinks she had on the first plane before she arrived at the airport and hit the bar.

I imagine that will come out, eventually.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

51. I didn't even think about her drinking on the first flight.

You're probably right about that. If that's the case, as you say, it will come out eventually.

I can't blame the airline either. By the time she had received the offer of a ticket from the other person on the next flight, she was according to the account, showing erratic behavior.

From what I've read and heard on tv reports, I believe the police will be held to a certain degree accountable, but if her husband didn't let her fly alone (in more ways than one), this tragedy never would have happened.

[MADem]

53. I have a relative who is a flight attendant. I get to hear stories about

people who want their drinkies right after breakast...!

I don't know what the gate agents could have done either--if she was acting erratically, or loaded, they've got to say no for the safety of the rest of the passengers...

It's a shame, but her husband shouldn't have tried to 'economize'--even if she said she'd be fine. This isn't her first rehab experience, apparently. They've been down this road before....

Sad story. Saddest for her kids, certainly.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. I don't think it had anything to do with economizing. The resources were there.

What wasn't there for her was her husband. Noah left Carol alone a good part of the time in their day to day lives, and continued to leave her alone, knowing she was in crisis, up until her untimely death.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1987817&mesg_id=1988341

Gin Sat Oct-06-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. this part jumped out at me.....what an odd thing to say, and do

Sometime later, Noah Gotbaum phoned the airport communications center in Phoenix, still trying to find out where his wife was and to let the authorities know that she was “alcohol abusive” and suicidal.

“The police don’t really understand what they’re dealing with right now,” he said, according to transcripts of three calls he made.

Later, he added, “They’re playing with real fire right now.”

[pnwmom]

77. She was already in the airport and the airline knew it.

You don't have to check in on a connecting flight -- you're already checked in. You just go and sit in the waiting area.

[LisaL]

79. That's usually how it works. So I am wondering as to

how airline would even know she arrived at the gate 25 minutes prior rather than 30 minutes prior. Cause usually with a connecting flight, there is no checking in at the gate up until they call for boarding.

[MADem]

99. Was it the same airline? Did she have a boarding pass for the next leg?

How do you know?

I rather doubt they'd give away her seat if they KNEW she was there. You're ascribing nefarious or thoughtless, or simply 'lousy customer service' practices absent any evidence.

It wouldn't make SENSE for them to crap on a paying customer they knew was present in the airport and intending to board the flight. They catch enough shit, they aren't LOOKING for trouble.

They gave away her seat because she didn't turn up in time.

As they do.

[pnwmom]

80. You are considered checked in when you check in on your originating flight.

You don't recheck-in when you get to your connecting flight, you just go there. They know from the computer that you're in the airport.

[MADem]

106. It was a feeder airline, first of all. MESA AIR. Second, the plane was about to

push back and had disconnected from the jetway by the time she got there. She was NOT "denied boarding." She was way too late to board--the plane was just about ready to go get in line to take off.

With those feeder airlines, they don't always have you in the computer. And she CHANGED her ticket from a direct flight to this two-hop thing. She probably didn't even have a boarding pass for the MESA AIR leg.

Here's the latest: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/a-new-yorkers-puzzling-death-in-phoenix/

Paul Skellon, a spokesman for Mesa Airlines, which operates U.S. Airways Express flights, said that Ms. Gotbaum was not denied boarding her flight. She simply arrived too late, he said. The door to the gate had already closed, the jetway had disengaged from the plane, and the plane was about to push back, he said.

[mainer]

115. Exactly. Her seat on that flight should have been assured.

And 25 minutes should have been plenty of time to seat her.

[MADem]

139. They disconnected the jetway. They locked the door.

The cut off, per the airline, is thirty minutes.

It was a small plane, not a big huge one.

MESA Air's largest plane seats 86 people. The average plane seats a few dozen.

[mainer]

114. They BEGIN BOARDING 30 minutes before a flight

Arriving 25 minutes before a flight is not late.

Many flights connect with very short layover times -- I've been given 30 minute layovers between connecting flights and barely made it to the gate with 10 minutes to spare. The gates are never shut before then.

[MADem]

131. I provided links elsewhere in this thread. The links are to the

United website which says you must check in THIRTY MINUTES prior. I also provided a statement by the Air Mesa rep that said the plane was disconnected from the jetway and the jetway door locked by the time she showed up.

We aren't talking a big plane here. It's a puddle jumper contract plane. And the departure time could have well been the 'wheels in the well' time.

What, you're calling the AIR MESA rep a LIAR? Surely the plane passengers, pilot or pilots, and the FA's and gate agents could contradict the story, so why would anyone take a risk and lie about such a thing?

[Xenotime]

25. chalk another one up to corporate greed and gung ho police.

[malaise]

29. Yep -thanks to n2doc

[Bobbieo]

39. Corporate greed and gung ho cops played their roles in this

tragedy but I'll bet the lady was a handfull when she was under the influence. I've had my share of holes in the wall, shattered glass, broken mirrors and windows.

The bottom line is still - she should have had an escort for this trip to the rehab clinic. There is no way in hell I would have put my daughter on a plane for this trip without an escort or even a bodyguard. With airline travel these days - the stress and delays are inevitable. Ths all will be aired in court.

It is ione helluva mess and getting worse every day.

[MADem]

46. You have to wonder if she was drinking on the first plane, too?

No escort, and she's got a problem like that?

That surely will come out as well.



There is a link to the video within the text of this story: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/10/05/airport.death/

I don't know if it's perspective or an oddity of the tape, but everyone in Phoenix looks like they shop at the Big N Tall shop.

[Xenotime]

82. It looks like they are twisting her arm.

I have seen moves where they can hurt you like that.

[cali]

32. Probably, but her family should never have

allowed a seriously ill woman to travel alone. And they certainly had the resources to make sure she got to her destination safely.

[MADem]

49. Ya know, that aspect jumped out at me, as well.

Our massive family isn't rich, but we don't let kids or the elderly fly alone, no matter what. If someone was unwell and was going for treatment, it would be the same deal, especially if there's addiction in the mix.

It's puzzling. I wonder if she was drinking on the previous flight, too. She couldn't have had the mouthwash bottle full of booze, because of the new three ounce rule, but damn....

[burythehatchet]

35. Let's please call it what it is, murder, not death. n/t

[cali]

36. I suspect it was negligent homicide or worse, but

I still feel I need more facts. And I still hold her family partially responsible. You don't let a very ill woman travel alone when you don't have to.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. I hold her husband partially responsible too.

He was absent from her with his work and absent when she needed him the most. Letting her go off alone, in her high risk state, is unconscionable to me.

[Gin]

43. this part jumped out at me.....what an odd thing to say, and do

Sometime later, Noah Gotbaum phoned the airport communications center in Phoenix, still trying to find out where his wife was and to let the authorities know that she was “alcohol abusive” and suicidal.

“The police don’t really understand what they’re dealing with right now,” he said, according to transcripts of three calls he made.

Later, he added, “They’re playing with real fire right now.”

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

44. I live in the NYC area, & the scroll under the local news is reporting that she was dead for over

an hour when they got his message. I'm bummed out even more now knowing that.

[Bobbieo]

45. Noah - the above is proof positive you never should put her on that plane without an escort!!!

[Berry Cool]

47. Yeah...if she was such a danger to herself and others

why didn't he make arrangements to go with her to reduce that danger?

[mwb970]

59. Maybe *he* should have been dealing with it, not the police.

Even if his message had gotten through, there wasn't much time to come up to speed on her life problems.

[LisaL]

68. Supposedly she changed her flight from the direct flight

into this one. Everybody I hope knows how these connecting flights are-if your first plane is late, you can easily miss your second one.
When given a choice, I always stick with a direct flight.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

74. Even if it was a direct flight, I don't think she should have gone alone.

From post #49 by Gin
Gin Sat Oct-06-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. this part jumped out at me.....what an odd thing to say, and do

Sometime later, Noah Gotbaum phoned the airport communications center in Phoenix, still trying to find out where his wife was and to let the authorities know that she was “alcohol abusive” and suicidal.

“The police don’t really understand what they’re dealing with right now,” he said, according to transcripts of three calls he made.

Later, he added, “They’re playing with real fire right now.”

[LisaL]

78. At least with a direct flight, someone could have put her on the

plane, with someone else meeting her on the other side. Obviously even with that, she could have gotten into trouble while on the plane.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

92. Chances shouldn't have been taken. Someone Was supposed to meet her in Phoenix.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/nyregion/06gotbaum.html?hp=&pagewanted=print


Indeed, it was her desire to see them off to school that resulted in her missing a direct flight to Tucson and boarding a plane that would connect at Phoenix Sky Harbor Airport. Her husband’s decision to let her travel alone — made initially, Betsy Gotbaum said, because of the plans to fly direct — took on catastrophic implications when she had to switch planes. Friends who were supposed to meet her flight and escort her to the next one were delayed, and she ended up in an airport bar.

[LisaL]

98. I am wondering as to how those friends were supposed to

meet her at the airport and escort her to the next flight, considering, I believe, that now days you have to have a ticket to get into secure area.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

108. I travel so infrequently by air that I forgot this! You're right! eom

[MADem]

107. Yeah, flight attendant, I'll have ANOTHER scotch, please, hold the water! nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

109. Another poster just reminded me...unless you have a ticket, you can't take people to a gate.

These friends couldn't have done it, even if they were there.

[Rene]

48. One of my first thoughts when I saw the video and it showed the converging 'police' or 'tsa'

people was how huge/fat they ALL were.
Just the other day I walked into a store----had to go around three stooges who were standing directly in front of the door. They were all macho-hyped; all had those large 2 way radios and were excitedly talking about getting a picture of a guy to send to someone. These guys were in black....and really creepy looking, as in not the least normal looking....nor very intelligent looking. These are the new 'security folks' that will have control over the rest of us. aaaagggghhhh We better watch, somehow, who's being given these 'policing powers'.

[MADem]

50. Jesus, it wasn't just me. They all looked like Ralph Kramden!

But it may have been an oddity in the tape, because most of the passers-by looked like Ralph Kramden, too....

[Bluerthanblue]

55. would this have happened pre-9/11?

The paranoia that exists in this world as a result of 9/11 is greatly responsible for this, and several other deaths IMO-

This woman was not seen as an individual- as a valued person, who deserved respect, compassion, and attention- but rather as just another "customer"- a consumer who wasn't willing/able to be a "good do-bee" and who couldn't deal with being shuffled aside like rejected baggage.

Yeah, she had some major issues- but what this sad story tells me, is that while our society has many many truly compassionate, caring, generous individuals- we are unwilling to question authority.

Someone was moved to give her their spot on the next flight- a generous, helpful act- but because she was 2 fucking minutes past the "30min." check in time, the anal airport people said no???- How many times have consumers of this "service" (air-travel) been kept waiting for the Airlines?-

My heart breaks for this woman. To die in an airport, unable to move forward towards the hope of help, or backwards towards the familiar. No one available to offer her genuine comfort, or help. What a sad, lonely, awful way to leave this world.

What have we become? What kind of 'community' or 'society' tolerates this kind of thing without looking inward, and questioning our "civilized" nature?

She lost her father, her previous identity- (career) she moved to another country for her husbands "job"- and now that she had 3 children to care for, the "job"- kept her husband away even more- she didn't even have a place that she could look to as a stable "home"- (for-sale sign on their leased brownstone) and yet, she's supposed to be one of the "lucky" financially advantaged ones????-



A great nation doesn't ignore the misery of its individuals. If we turn our heads to each other- if we make excuses as to why this was "sadly unavoidable"- or defend the "policies" that took a person to this edge, and feel even slightly 'satisfied' - we can expect to face more and more incidents like this, and shouldn't be surprised when we ourselves bump up against the Machine that has become "us".


I'm glad she finally has peace.

[aikoaiko]

56. I knew someone who threw a similar hissy fit at Sky Harbor and was treated almost exactly the same

Approached, arrested, manhandled, put in a holding cell, transferred to local jail at least 6 years before 9/11

[Bluerthanblue]

58. were they refused

their seat because they only checked in 25mins beforehand instead of 30? and then refused a seat which was kindly offered by another passenger 28mins. - (2 fucking minutes???) later?

Did the person you knew die as a result?

[aikoaiko]

62. Not exactly, but it was similar in that my friend thought the airlines were being unreasonable

No, she didn't die, but that may be because (1) she wasn't stupid enough to try to escape and somehow strangle herself, (2) didn't meet up with a murderous cop, (3) any number of other things.

[Bluerthanblue]

66. I apologize for my

snarky tone-

I'm glad your friend didn't die as a result of her experience- I also acknowledge that situations similar to this have obviously occurred prior to 9/11- They were much less common though (imu) and less likely to seen as " just another loser/stupid person".
Everyone is a 'terrarist' these days- homeland security run amuck- we have sacrificed an enormous part of ourselves at the altar of the false idol of "safety"-

we need to treat each other better on an individual basis- I'm sorry I haven't demonstrated that better by my own actions-

peace~
blu

[aikoaiko]

67. I generally agree with you.

I flew on business on Sept 17, 2001 (ATL to/fro SFO) and it was amazingly peaceful. People (customers, security, and workers) were kind and tolerant. Everyone remarked that it was the way it should always be and what a shame it took the attacks to make people better people.

[malaise]

60. Great post n/t

[hedgehog]

64. Actually, it did happen a few weeks before 9/11

I'm not good enough at google to track it down, but there was a man killed on a flight into Salt Lake City (I think) in August of that year (I think). He was about 30 years old and had started to behave erratically, possibly from a schizophrenic breakdown. He was inadvertently smothered when a bunch of passengers tackled him and sat on him. I remember it well because in that case the passengers took independent action quickly. On 9/11, they followed the hijacking scenario and didn't react until too late.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

65. What an excellent post.

I previously posted on this thread personal feelings about Carol and her life and you have done an excellent job of discussing it on a societal level. Thank you very much.

And here I go again, crying for Carol and also for we, as a people. :cry:

[Pavulon]

72. Yes, Here and in Frankfurt, Heathrow, etc

if you freak out and pitch a fit in an airport here or abroad you will be arrested and detained.

It is not a god given right to act a fool whenever and wherever the urge strikes.

Really.

[BlackVelvet04]

93. Good post.....

what an uncaring, rigid and "rules are paramount" society we have become.

If the woman was obviously irrational and intoxicated why was she left alone?

[OzarkDem]

112. Even worse

The ridiculous airline security procedures enacted after 9-11 that harm so many innocent people and cost so much in taxpayer dollars don't have a real effect on stopping terrorism.

[WolverineDG]

69. Bad moves all around

The family, for letting her travel alone & the cops, for leaving an obviously mentally unstable person alone & unsupervised in lock up.

dg

[RamboLiberal]

91. All you who are arguing that she didn't check in 30 minutes

in advance so it was her fault - see this thread. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1990182

She was on a connecting flight and would've probably already had her boarding flight for the Phoenix to Tuscon part of the flight.

[Chulanowa]

94. Blaming the victim, favorite pastime on DU.

Was she troubled? Yes
Was she drinking? Quite likely
Should she have been alone? No
Should they have tried to fly her in "on the cheap"? probably not

Did this woman or anyone in her family strangle her, whether with handcuffs or the couple inches of chain connecting her to the bench while she was left unsupervised in police custody?

No, they didn't.

Now, I don't know how many of you have seen the sort of chain we're talking about, but in order to choke on it, you would first need your hands in front of you. You would then need to loop the chain around your neck with your head level with or under the bench, grip the bench, and let your body weight choke you. You would achieve unconsciousness, your grip would relax, and the tension would be released, resulting in you being unconscious with a bruised neck. Not strangled.

And yet we have a woman who was apparently strangled. Police say it was with this chain. Well, they said that AFTER they said they found her unconscious with her hands around her neck (Again you would need some method of maintaining that pressure after passing out)

Phoenix police are, essentially, telling us that they locked her in a room, and she magically managed to kill herself while they were not paying any attention to her, despite lacking any realistic means to kill herself. And so many on this thread want to throw blame on the woman herself, her family, the airline... blame the fucking cops. Not that it will help, when's the last time a cop got sentenced for killing someone?

[pitohui]

95. i know it's disgusting and they're now blaming the family too

hello, many rehabs don't allow families (enablers!) to accompany the patient

must be nice to be able to have no knowledge of something and thus be able to make this wide sweeping hateful judgments

it is not the family's fault, nor is the family supposed to/allowed to "baby sit" the alcoholic -- she must get there of her own free will, nothing changes until SHE decides to change, family members can't decide for her or the rehab is just taking their money under false pretenses

[opihimoimoi]

96. The AIRLINE P)erson who sold her seat is the PERP...That person should go to jail for MURDER

[MADem]

103. Good grief. How absurd a statement is that?

There's updated news. She wasn't 'denied boarding.' Turns out it was a FEEDER airline she was booked on, MESA AIR--and she was WAY too late to board: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/a-new-yorkers-puzzling-death-in-phoenix/

Paul Skellon, a spokesman for Mesa Airlines, which operates U.S. Airways Express flights, said that Ms. Gotbaum was not denied boarding her flight. She simply arrived too late, he said. The door to the gate had already closed, the jetway had disengaged from the plane, and the plane was about to push back, he said.

[opihimoimoi]

111. Not from what I heard/read....the Airlines made a snafu and is covering their tracks

[MADem]

123. Well, I provided a statement by the MESA AIR rep. You'll have to do better than that.

A passed on rumor or innuendo, without a credible cite, is pretty worthless.

I rather doubt the MESA AIR franchise would go on the record like that if they were "covering their tracks."

It's not like there weren't any WITNESSES to the aircraft's movements and departure times, like say, the gate agents, the ground crew, the pilot/s and flight attendants, and oh yeah...the passengers.

The one who snafu'd was that poor unwell woman. Not the airline.

[Occulus]

125. Because we all know how reliable official statements from large companies are

when there's potential liability involved, right?

:eyes:

I'm fucking tired of seeing you blame victimS. Welcome to my ignore list.

[MADem]

129. Yeah, as opposed to a statement saying "Well, I heard some bozo say" without any citation for it.

Thanks so much for putting me on your ignore list.

Let's hope you actually do it, rather than just threaten ineffectually and tell us all how "fucking tired" you are. See, my feelings aren't hurt at all--I'm relieved at having one less individual who "ASS-UMES" and can't follow a discussion not cluttering discussions that I otherwise enjoy.

You clearly don't read for comprehension, otherwise you would see that there was NO BLAMING going on in my post.

OTOH, you seem invested in finding someone to blame--and a tiny little feeder airline, AIR MESA, that contracts with a larger airline, is your "corporate" target.

This woman was an accident waiting to happen. Why not blame her rich husband, for sending her off to Tucson, rather than getting help closer to home? Or spending the money on a fare for an escort, so she wouldn't be left to her own devices on her way to REHAB????

Naaaah...far easier to blame the ALMIGHTY, all powerful, corporate giant-- "Air Mesa" --now, that's pathetic.

:eyes:

[mainer]

113. She WAS NOT LATE for her flight!

Article says she checked in at 1:05 for a 1:30 flight! How could the plane door already be closed? That's 25 minutes before departure? Most flights BEGIN BOARDING 30 minutes before a flight. They don't close the doors 5 minutes later!

[Pavulon]

117. If she was not on the standby list

or did not have positive space (or even if she had positive space) and got bounced that is not a reason to pitch a fit, and get arrested.

I will wait for more data.

[mainer]

118. And getting angry is not a reason to be put to death, either

So now it seems that if one gets understandably angry in an airport, after getting screwed by the airlines, then it's okay for them to die.

[LisaL]

133. You don't even know why she died.

Yesterday a guy was running a marathon and he dropped dead. Only 35 years old. Things happen.

[LisaL]

119. Maybe that article got the times wrong.

Because according to other articles, the plane had already boarded by the time Carol Gotbaum showed up.

[MADem]

130. Check the website for their regs. Thirty minutes. She WAS late.

She had to check in THIRTY minutes prior, not twenty, not twenty five.

It was a little plane--they probably needed more time to taxi and get in line. You can board those small feeders in no time, it's not a big drill.

It wasn't UNITED, either--it was AIR MESA, a puddle jumper that contracts with them for their Express flights.

They had already disconnected the jetway AND locked the jetway door when she showed up.

[AlCzervik]

126. i would love to know if she booked her ticket through the airline or was it booked

through hot wire or travelosity.

When i was flying back from Boston United had oversold the flight, everyone who booked through hot wire got bounced, same things happen at hotels btw.

[MADem]

140. Mesa Air codeshares for several airlines--United, US Air, Delta and others.

So she may well have had a US air ticket for the first leg, and a Delta or United ticket for the next leg.

We just don't know. She did turn in the original ticket and change her flight...

[Bonobo]

127. Irrelevant. Her death was inexcusable under ANY scenario!

[LisaL]

134. Oh really. What was her cause of death?

[dailykoff]

142. Suicide.

Isn't it always?

[high density]

128. It's typical for airlines to overbook their flights

Yes, it sucks, but that's just how it works. Hundreds if not thousands of people are in the same situation every day and seem to survive it without total mental breakdown.

[MADem]

141. That's because piggy assholes who are too important to plan make reservations on five or ten flights

And because they're frequent flyers, they get away with being able to do that, even though they have no intention of making the flights.

The airlines aren't charities. They make their money by putting asses in the seats. If all tickets were nonrefundable, and it was incumbent upon the passenger to show up or else, there wouldn't be this overbooking risk. Of course, no one would like the idea of losing your cash if you were late...