WWII veteran Nazi interrogators denounced Bush’s Torture techniques

[rpannier]

The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.

We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture,” said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess.

”During the many interrogations, I never laid hands on anyone,” said George Frenkel, 87, of Kensington. “We extracted information in a battle of the wits. I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”…read on

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link: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/07/wwii-veteran-nazi-interrogators-denounced-bushs-torture-techniques/
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"We did it with a certain amount of respect and justice," said John Gunther Dean, 81, who became a career Foreign Service officer and ambassador to Denmark.

link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100502492_2.html?hpid=topnews

[cherokeeprogressive]

1. As IF the nazi murderers deserved it.

A game of chess with a nazi is respectful and just?? I'd have stood up on the other side of the chess board and emptied my pistol into his aryan head.

[WillyT]

3. Not Clear On The Concept, Eh ???

:wtf:

[cherokeeprogressive]

4. If the concept you speak of is that the murderers of millions should have been treated to

a cup of tea and a nice game of chess... I guess I don't.

[WillyT]

8. So Then... The Treatment Of Prisoners At Abu Ghraib Was Ok With You ???

:shrug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Were they guilty of murdering millions?

Apples and oranges. And, the horrific actions of the nazis were uncovered before hitler committed suicide.

[WillyT]

16. So... Shoot Them First, Ask Questions Later, Eh ???

Hell... the camps were still operable. We could have eliminated every last German too.

You see the problem you have here?

:shrug:

[Matariki]

9. "I’m proud to say I never compromised my humanity.”

I think that might be the concept you are not getting.

[davekriss]

25. You don't get it, do you

Torture has NEVER been an effective means towards gathering information. The tortured will and does say everything they believe the torturer wants to hear, like 2 + 2 equal 5, or the moon really is made out of cream cheese.

What the original post conveys is these interrogators were able to surface real intelligence from their captives through other means. It's not about "playing nice" with murderers, it's about playing smart.

[yardwork]

6. Um, I think the point is that they weren't proven to be murderers yet.

The interrogation techniques, presumably, elicited the information needed to charge them in a court of law. Not vigilante justice.

[CoffeeCat]

10. Then you become just like them...

When you engage in murder and revenge, then you have just become what you claim to hate.

The point of the initial post is that these interrogators were able to extract information
without compromising their integrity or their humanity.

Everyone has strong emotions when it comes to the Nazis and the atrocities that they committed. However,
a professional interrogator--someone who is interested in finding the truth--would model responsible,
intelligent questioning techniques to ensure that the truth is revealed.

One could argue that being calm, rational and professional unearthed the most useful, accurate information
about the Nazi crimes--which ultimately led to the historical record that we have now and ultimately, the
prosecution of these criminals.

I'm sure these interrogators had the same emotions that all of us have about the Nazis. I'm grateful
that they maintained self control, in order to extract truthful information and shine the spotlight
on their atrocities.

[cherokeeprogressive]

14. I'm not like them. I've never caused physical harm to a single human being.

[WillyT]

18. But You Would Have...

"I'd have stood up on the other side of the chess board and emptied my pistol into his aryan head."

I'm not misquoting you am I?

:shrug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. No misquote. In retrospect, I honestly cannot say what I might have done.

Sometimes I speak from the heart rather than the head. Give me a couple glasses of wine and I'm almost sure to.

[WillyT]

22. Sometimes... I Do To

Peace brother.

:hug:

[wtmusic]

19. The Nazi murderers deserved the rule of law

Your personal hunger for revenge is more important?

Tsk, tsk. Back to square one.

[BornagainDUer]

28. Exactly, that is what the Nuremberg trials were all about. Insuring that

we don't resort to the barbarism Germany imposed on the world.

[charlie]

15. Congratulations

The guy who has what you need to know is dead. Maybe you can figure a way to beat it out of his corpse.

[HamdenRice]

26. You completely don't get it

First of all, it's quite remarkable to see some anonymous internet poster bashing honored veterans of the second world war. But that's a different issue.

The veteran interrogators are making two points:

1. Torture simply isn't effective. This is already haunting US intelligence and military because they have been getting rubbish from torture victims -- in Iraq, innocent people falsely denouncing other innocent people just to make the torture end and a spiralling imprisoned population, outlandish stories from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and in the case of Jose Padilla a guy with a now completely blanked out mind.

2. Torture is wrong and dehumanizes the torturer. The veteran says that he didn't lose his humanity. It's not about what the Nazis deserved; it's about what Americans deserve -- their reputation, their moral superiority, the precedent they establish, eg at Nuremburg.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Shooting prisoners in the head, eh?

Silly me, I thought that's what the Nazis did.

[Kagemusha]

2. Self-deleted.

Reply #1 has emptied my stomach of any desire to praise humane behavior. I was a fool to even consider it.

[Amonester]

5. And then, they (we) got betrayed by the Nazi "sympathizers" ...

Prescott & sons...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x3087
:puke:

K&R Because Not Enough Thousands Out Of 300,000,000+ KNOW About These scumbags. :cry:

[burrowowl]

7. Brave people to say what is right

K&R!

[malaise]

29. And that's all I need to say

K & R

[prairierose]

11. Thank heavens that in that time...

there were men who believed in the country that we used to be. Men who believed in the Constitution and the rule of law.

The first reply to this message makes me weep for what we used to be and gives me little hope that we will ever get back to that place.

[bleever]

12. The "Greatest Generation" got this part right, too,

and bequeathed it to the future.

It's been desecrated.

[Beerboy]

17. Your headline could also suggest even hardened GeStaPo find Bushco

a little over the top!
Thanks for links, very interesting!

[hootinholler]

24. That's what I thought when I came in...

I thought NAZIs who were interrogating people were denouncing *

-Hoot

[rpannier]

27. I took the headline straight from the source C&L

Sorry bout that.
I can see the confusion.
It's different when you have the story and the headline together, than when you only have the headline.

[Senator]

21. Impeachment For Torture Can End The War

And we already "have the votes."

--

[depakid]

23. "We got more information out of a _______ with..."

Being stupid and brutish isn't very effective, if what these men are telling us is true.

[Javaman]

31. battle of wits?

got to remember that if moron* and his room full of dopes ever got into a battle of wits with anyone they would be massively out numbered. Never send a guy with a knife into a gun fight. sadly, however, this is what we got, basically, the caveman way of extracting information.

when we only have half wits running things the best we can ever hope for is half ass ideas.

[burrowowl]

32. Kick!

Or how torture doesn't work!