If Hillary becomes president, will we ever really know the truth about the last 7 years?

[The Backlash Cometh]

I'm just wondering, with George Bush talking to Hillary Clinton, you got to know it's not just about the future of the Iraq War. George is probably negotiating for some peace of mind after 2008 and doesn't want to live the rest of his life looking over his shoulder, wondering if there's a Fed cell with his name on it.

So, for those of you who live for the truth, expect it to get buried because, I'm sure Bush has found something during the Clinton years to negotiate with.

[Forkboy]

1. To be honest I don't think we'll ever know no matter who gets elected.

I think if people expect Bush and Cheney to ever face any kind of justice they're setting themselves up for some major disappointment.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. I just want to know the truth.

I would almost be willing to leave it in the hands of God to pass out punishment to those two. Letting them live long enough to see history write them up as the monsters of our time, would be justice enough.

[Forkboy]

7. I'd love to see it as well.

I just don't think we will.

If I'm wrong there's going to be one hell of a party though. :)

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. This is not good for the country.

We are definitely seeing the fall of Rome, and how it happened was by burying secrets and selling lies.

[Forkboy]

11. I'm too cynical to be anything but very biased on the topic of the future.

But I think we're fucked no matter what at this point.This is all bread and circuses now.

Sincerely,
Professor Positive. :)

[LeftCoast]

3. There's a rather sizable group around here

who seem to do nothing but set themselves up for major disappointment.

[Disturbed]

4. With Bill being adopted by the Bush Crime Family

there is zero possibility of a Pres. Clinton pursuing criminal charges for their boy Dubya.

[tibbiit]

35. No we will never know the truth

no matter who is elected. We will also be accused by our leaders of being far leftist nutcases. They will do like all the others before and say we must drop this matter for the healing of the country.
We should get used to this idea because these elected officials will never open up the cans of worms.

I hate saying this and think we should question our candidates and get them on record of what they will do. (even though i think they will lie and say they will go after bushco, then when elected want to heal the country for the good of it.)
tib

[Kahuna]

5. I doubt it. nt

[WilliamPitt]

6. If God gets elected, we'll still never know the truth.

Truth?

Here's truth: if you've heard of a federal pol, they're on board. Nobody in American politics achieves national notice without having signed on the line that is dotted (with some exceptions, to some degree).

Not even Dennis would be able to pull back the curtain.

The last 7 years? Only an extension of the last 60.

Don't hold your breath. The only ones who can haul back that curtain are you, me, and us all...and it's gonna take a lifetime to dare to get there.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. But, Will, aren't you in favor of a Hillary in the Oval Office?

It wouldn't take much for the truth to come out. All it would take is to release public records which, by law, should already be available by FOIA. It's a no brainer. George Bush's administration is a rogue administration. It has steered away from the basic tenets of the Constitution. The question is, who of the candidates, would be most likely to continue hiding George Bush's dirty paper trail?

[WilliamPitt]

14. I'm in favor of a President not beholden to a radical religious voter base

It wouldn't take much for the truth to come out.

Only the entire mainstream media deciding to report accurately on things, the weapons industry deciding it doesn't like money anymore, the oil industry deciding same, the GOP admitting fault and complicity, the Democratic Party admitting same, and every dirty secret since Kennan's telegram becoming public.

All it would take is to release public records which, by law, should already be available by FOIA. It's a no brainer.

Which records? The real ones, the ones documenting all the shit we never hear about? Or the documents for public consumption? Ollie North found the shredders back in the 80's, remember. I'm sure he told his friends where they are.

George Bush's administration is a rogue administration. It has steered away from the basic tenets of the Constitution. The question is, who of the candidates, would be most likely to continue hiding George Bush's dirty paper trail?

All of them. Because it isn't Bush's dirty laundry. It's America's, since 1946 and before. You think these Bush guys invented this crap? They just flexed it. The PATRIOT Act isn't much more than Drug War laws flexed, which also affect privacy laws, which affect speech, etc.

Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific, Buckley v. Valeo, the Truman Doctrine...1886, 1976, and 1946 respectively. That's the paper trail, and no politician able to gain the Oval is going to talk about it voluntarally.

But we don't really need the next president to do that. We couldn't trust it, anyway, no matter who it is. We have to do it ourselves, and it's going to take years, and it has but a little to do with George and the boys in the main. They are not the potter, but the potter's clay...just like the rest of us.

The only paper trail I care about is the one that will lead us back to Constitutional governance, a nation of laws and not men/women, and the rule of law, period.

Don't get your hopes up about any new-prez truth-telling taking place. Sorry. :hug:

[babylonsister]

15. Now that you mention it, I do feel like a lump of clay!

Nice post to start my day, discouraging yet full of truthiness. Thanks. Will.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Sorry

:(

[babylonsister]

17. Don't be; eyes wide open beats head in the sand any day.

;-)

[The Backlash Cometh]

18. You know, Will, I stopped my community activism when I realized

that this local community wasn't worth fighting for.* Actually, they weren't worth being saved, because they didn't want to be saved. They were perfectly happy living the lie.

But they bitch, because things really are a mess in this country and that's something that's very hard to hide. However, because they refuse to see the truth, their unhappiness and dissatisfaction makes them easy prey for anyone who wants to exploit their feeling of malaise. And usually that means redirecting their anger at things or people that affect my life. Whether that's the environment, immigrants, Affirmative Action. All of their unhappiness gets misdirected and it only makes it harder to find the truth, which, they will not see unless they read it in the Mainstream Press.

If our country is learning to be phonies like Chris Matthews and Hillary Clinton, tell me, will our country be worth fighting for? Why? I wonder.

They keep making it harder to get a hold of the truth so that they can continue the lies and their phoniness. I've already cut myself off from my local community because I won't compromise my principles, how long before I figure out that this online experience is just another experience in futility?

*And I also disconnected, not just because this community wasn't worth fighting for, but because I had a young family to raise and protect. And in a world that is embracing phoniness, people like me, who live by the truth, are a threat to them.

[WilliamPitt]

21. "because I had a young family to raise"

A very wise friend of mine once said, "You really want to change the world for the better? Have children, raise them well, and you'll change more than you could ever know."

So.

Sounds like community activism to me.

:toast:

[The Backlash Cometh]

24. Well, my daughter did give me the best gift of my life, yesterday.

Very long story, but let's just say that my concept of parenting involves finding a balance between strict conservative moral expectations about the big things (drugs, sex...), but liberally allowing the child to make their own decisions and mistakes about the little things. If they wanted to go to school with different colored socks, I wouldn't sweat it.

Well, my daughter and I have had the normal mother-daughter relationship. I'm the authority figure in the family, the bad cop. So, we lock horns all the time. There's not much in my personal life that we shared. However, yesterday she took the SATs and the question involved "Identity." Damn if the child didn't write an essay that I would have written myself. I didn't even realize she had been listening.

[WilliamPitt]

26. She shoots, she scores.

:)

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Uh, Will, you do know Hillary is in a prayer group

with conservatives like Sam Brownback? The group is connected to The Fellowship, about which the Atlantic Monthly did a long article years ago that is online. She reportedly joined this group when she was First Lady.

Is she returning to her Midwestern Methodist "Goldwater Girl" roots, or is it a political ploy?

Either way. . .

[WilliamPitt]

32. Politics is politics

I don't give much of a damn who anyone prays with, or to, or for. She ain't no Fundy, if her pro-choice voting record is any indication.

I'm not a big fan, but there are plenty of other issues more worthy of notice than how and with whom she chooses to worship, or why...and if you think she's the only one in that prayer group looking to do some networking, I got news for you: for guys like Brownback, that stuff *is* networking.

And yes, galling as it may be, Democratic Senators actually do have to deal with GOP Senators from time to time. Like, say, Kennedy dealing with GOP co-sponsors on his immigration bill, which singlehandedly nuked the GOP coalition. Came in handy last November.

So.

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Dismiss it if you like.

I'm not going to hand you the research you ought to have done already.

And "I got news for you," I've got a kid older than you and I've been internationally published myself, so don't be talking down to me, OK?

[WilliamPitt]

39. Should have put a smiley in there

I meant no offense or down-talk.

As for how and with whom she prays, honestly, I can't get too worked up about it. But thank you for the poke.

[DemBones DemBones]

49. That would have helped.

You really ought to read about The Fellowship.

Hillary's prayer group is led by the man who's run The Fellowship for years so it's linked much more tightly than the other groups. Sanctorum and Inhofe as well as Brownback have been in that prayer group. The Fellowship is very secretive. Why?

[WilliamPitt]

51. Is this the same "Fellowship" some major league baseball players are part of?

Trot Nixon and Curt Shilling are "Fellowship" people, but my understanding was that it was just a prayer and bible study group.

As for the secrecy, no idea. One possibility, though farfetched, could be this: neither Dem nor GOP Senators want to deal with the kind of outcry you've brought up here, i.e. "You're doing that with HER?" or "You're doing that with HIM?" If they're really praying, that'd be uncomfortable, and your unease is surely matched by right-wing unease about Brownback sharing space with Clinton.

*shrug*

[DemBones DemBones]

52. No, this is different, and ALL the Congressional prayer groups

affiliated with it are secretive, not just that one. Of course it could be as you said, and also because the members want to keep their religion private.

The thing that's worrisome is the Fellowship itself and its secrecy. It owns an old mansion that IIRC was donated to it and some members of Congress live there, eating and praying together and talking about winning America to Jesus.

Could be no worse than a Benedictine monastery, but these aren't monks or sisters, they're Congresspeeps and do they mean evangelization or institution of theocracy? Are some of the Fellowship members Christian Reconstructionists?

You really ought to look up the old article to learn about the Fellowship. I can't remember much detail, just that it raised alarm bells for me, and I'm pretty sure it came out back when Bill Clinton was president.

There's another Atl. Monthly article that is about Hillary as a senator and discusses her involvement in the prayer group and much else about her political skills. It's fair and flattering to her, was written before she announced her candidacy, in 2006, I think.

[Forkboy]

Because I'm so happy today I'll take your statement even further.

The last 7 years? Only an extension of the last 10,000.

The only ones who can haul back that curtain are you, me, and us all..

You and your damn half full glass!

:evilgrin:

[MilesColtrane]

50. True.

Also Cheney and the neocons learned big lessons from Watergate: avoid documentation, classify or destroy any remaining evidence, and constantly test for loyalty.

Of course the sheer size of the crimes and the number of people directly involved is bound to let some physical evidence through.
Anything that slips out will be spun and explained away or retroactively covered as in Iran-Contra.

The Nazis were different. They were INTO documenting their crimes. That was a big part of what made Nuremberg possible.

[laylah]

10. I wonder if we will ever know

no matter WHO wins.

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. FOIA. Which one will allow the public records law to work, and give

democracy a chance to work?

[NotGivingUp]

13. Not a chance in hell. n/t

[oasis]

19. Bush's jailer will be his conscience. The repairing of America will keep Hillary very busy.(eom)

[DemBones DemBones]

31. You think a man who signed off on a

record number of executions in Texas, has sent servicemembers off to die in two countries, and authorized wars that have killed thousands of civilians has a conscience? I can't picture him suffering pangs of guilt.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. He will probably feel validated as a ruler, because of his Authoritarian stance.

Badder than daddy.

[DemBones DemBones]

53. Yep, he took down Saddam. Big man. nt

[WinkyDink]

43. His WHAT? Psychopaths have none. Zero.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. But we can take away the one thing that all rulers hold dearest:

History remembering his legacy as a positive contribution.

[Lerkfish]

20. actually, I think I"m more concerned about Bill Clintont's friendship with Bush Sr.

that whole interelationship makes me queezy.

[Perry Logan]

22. This whole thread is based on a goofy slap at Hillary.

But whattaya gonna do?

[MannyGoldstein]

23. Pardoning Bush Sr. & Company Was One Of Bill's First Acts As President

Why would we expect any difference with Hillary?

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. He actually gave George Bush I a pardon? Or a pass?

[MannyGoldstein]

28. My Bad - I Think Clinton Only Killed The Investigation Of Bush

Need. More. Coffee.

[The Backlash Cometh]

29. Killing the investigation was bad enough. Hillary will do the same.

If Pelosi can get away with it, certainly Hillary would do it too.

No prob with the follow-up. Just wanted to keep things accurate.

[MannyGoldstein]

33. Yes, Clinton Did Kill The Investigation

Clinton refused to cooperate with special prosecutor Lawrence Walsh's investigation.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. Abominable.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. Let's look at some facts

George fils is talking to Hillary,

George pere is friends with Bill,

Bar says Bill is "another son,"

That would make Hillary "another daughter-in-law,"

So. . .

If Hillary becomes president, will we ever really know the truth about the last 7 years?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Eagle_Eye]

34. We pretty much know the truth

Illegal war in Iraq to transfer taxpayer dollars to contractors and big business
Tax breaks for the rich
Infringement on Constitutional rights
Election manipulation

What else do you need to know?

What we need right now is a Democrat in the Executive Branch to undo what little george has done to us.

[fightindonkey]

38. The Truth As In, Tinhat? No matter who is President, Those Documents Are Sealed

It is now time to stop the sinking of the country. The last seven years have planned out in front of everyone's eyes as to what the treasonist incompetent Republican Party really is.

[The Backlash Cometh]

41. How can you stop the sinking of anything, until you plug the holes?

And how are you going to find those holes, if you're not allowed to go down and search for them under the waterline?

[Major Hogwash]

40. No. Holding them accountable is not the same thing as assigning blame.

And I'm sure there is enough in there to blame at least some of the Democrats for what has been going on for this long. Ya know, 2 years is one thing, but 5?

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. And that's probably why Democrats will be obstructionists.

Would not surprise me if there were lots of Richard Shelbys improperly using the NSA to gather information on Democratic Congress people and their families. And now they're being blackmailed into submission.

[Bluebear]

45. Mark Penn can just scrub the hurt and death away with a PR campaign.

[Totally Committed]

46. No

we won't.

TC

[tom_paine]

47. No. If HRC gains the throne/is permitted to gain the throne of Amerika

then what was once a 98% chance we would never see the truth about the extent of Busie Felonies and High Crimes...

...becomes 100% rock-solid ironclad certainty.