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Why We have such Lousy Leaders & How to Get Rid of Them - autorank(Collins) - "Scoop"

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:07 AM
Original message
Why We have such Lousy Leaders & How to Get Rid of Them - autorank(Collins) - "Scoop"

Link: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0710/S00107.htm

Collins: Lousy Leaders & How to Get Rid of Them
Monday, 8 October 2007, 10:19 pm
Opinion: Michael Collins

The Money Party (2)


Why We Get Such Lousy Leaders and
How to Get Rid of Them


By Michael Collins
Scoop Independent News
Washington, D.C.

Hey, hold on there! Who says we have lousy leaders? Just about everybody. Between 40% and 60% of voting age citizens stay away form the polls in just about every election. In 2004, there were 221 million voting age citizens and 44 % of them, 98 million people, chose not to vote. Of the 226 million potential voters in 2006, a whopping 62%, 141 million people, stayed home.

When you ask why they chose not to vote, the common answer is “it makes no difference, they’re all a bunch of crooks.” If “no difference” were a candidate, he or she would win every election.

Why don’t we hear more about this huge voting block, “no difference?” Because an open discussion of the year in and year out refusal of half of those 18 and older to participate throws cold water on the legitimacy of every president and elected representative that we have.

No matter who they are, the elected consistently lack the endorsement of around half the population that stayed home plus somewhat less than half of those who voted since those voters chose another candidate. The right to govern is consistently granted by around 25% of the voting age citizens in presidential elections and 20% or less in off year elections.

It’s obvious. The Money Party doesn’t want us to vote. Its members, those few individuals and corporations who control most of the wealth, fund, elect, and control candidates who act in ways that cause people to say: “Forget about it. There’s no difference between any of them, they’re all a bunch of crooks.”

Let’s take a look at what happened after the 2006 elections.

We have a president and a co-president who are on record as saying that they don’t care what we think and a Congress that gave these politically deaf, dangerous men the same authority to attack Iran that was given to attack Iraq. Come on down Bush-Cheney, here’s your blank check for a brand new war!

What a strange elixir power is, a drug that apparently intoxicates and transforms those elected as they’re sworn into federal office. We, “the little people,” matter not to the few who cruise the corridors of power.

Leaders who fail to respond to the obvious sentiment of the public are lousy leaders, plain and simple. Their inadequacy is even more obvious when they fail to do much of anything that benefits the general public, all the while adding to the incomes of the corporations and individual donors who placed them in power. Even as the corporate media continue to prop up the government by down playing the real news, the general public knows that they have a tyrant at the top and enablers in supporting roles.

Citizens made to feel helpless are the essential ingredient needed to maintain the sham governments we get, the lousy leaders who shamelessly ignore the general welfare while diligently filling the public trough for their patrons in The Money Party.

Citizens who become outraged when lied to are the essential ingredient needed to retire the money party and take control of their own destinies.


What can we do about this?

How about this? Make them all sign an employment contract. We’ve forgotten that they’re our “public servants.” Let’s get everybody voting, including the powerful “no difference” block.

A Contract with the Citizens United States of America

Required for every elected official without exception


In order to serve in public office, I (candidate/office holder) agree to the following:

1) I will provide a designated independent auditing agency with a list that includes: all of my campaign contributors; all of my present and past business associates; all of my relatives and close friends; and anyone or any entity (company, union, etc.) that might approach me with a proposal for legislation, regulation, or other action that would result in the use of my influence and position for their benefit. I will continuously update this list and I agree that it will be made public.

2) I agree that any specific action I take requested by and for the benefit of any of the named individuals and entities or others is an instance of undue influence and betrayal of the public trust. Further, I agree that taking a job with or taking direct or indirect payment from any of those listed after leaving office is an instance of undue influence and betrayal of the public trust.

3) I will provide an itemized detail of any and all communication of any type that involves those listed in clause one or those who should have been listed as determined by the independent auditing agency should it be requested. I agree that all of these records will be made public.

4) I authorize any of those involved in any investigation to turn over any records concerning me if questions arise about undue influence due to my relationship with them. I also agree to fully open my records and staff, paid and unpaid, to interrogation by the auditing agency. I will not interfere in this process in any way whatsoever. I understand that any interference by me in the investigation is also an instance of undue influence and betrayal of the public trust.

5) If the independent auditing agency determines that I should be tried for “undue influence and betrayal of the public trust,” I agree that I will stand trial before a randomly selected, representative body of citizens and abide by their decision on my guilt of innocence. I further agree that this trial will last no more than one business day, eight hours, and that it will be televised on C-Span and any other network that chooses to air all or part of it.

6) I agree that I will resign and never seek public office again if the citizen panel determines that I am guilty of undue influence and betrayal of the public trust. I will also pay whatever fine is determined by the citizen jury. If the offense occurs after I leave office, I agree to an immediate period of two continuous years of service overseas in the Peace Corps and that I will never again seek public office and pay the fine levied. I further agree that I will not appeal the decision to any outside authority after the citizens make their decision.

This I swear:

---------------------------------------------------
Candidate for Public Office / Office Holder


This is just common sense. Elected office is a critically important trust. Those who serve have a major impact on all citizens. We all have to sign some sort of employment contract or work under rules that are, in essence, a contract. Why not the same deal for those who seek the honor of serving in elected office? Why not put them to the test when they say “we vote our conscience and not the interests of our contributors”? Why not make them truly accountable to us? How many insincere politicians would sign up for this type of scrutiny? How many would survive it?

Put the people back in charge through real accountability on the part of elected officials and provide clear consequences for undue influence that betrays the public trust.

END


Image Credit: http://2politicaljunkies.blogspot.com/

Previously: http://tinyurl.com/2ewsnu">The Money Party. The Essence of our Political Troubles

Note: The Republic of Venice had a similar contract (promissione) for their leaders. It was a very serious pledge since a violation meant the leader would be banished from Venice, by far the wealthiest, most advanced, and tolerant nation-state for several hundred years. It worked and most everybody did very well most of the time which is why Venice was called The Most Serene Republic.


http://tinyurl.com/2pxqeu


Permission to reprint this article in whole or part with a link to the original article in Scoop Independent News and attribution of authorship to Michael Collins.


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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. A Contract WITH the Citizens, as opposed to their old one -
Contract ON America, courtesy of the Newt.

I've always dreamed of making candidates live on minimum wage for 6 months before they can run for office; your idea has a much better chance. :)

Now, how to make it so?!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That will be the punishment...2 years on Minimum wage and they have to live on it.
Good early morning meditation:hi:
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Everyday, all day meditation, along with Peace for all!
:hi:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. I adore the idea of candidates having to live on minimum wage for six months
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 11:32 AM by truedelphi
Can you imagine Barbara Bush Sr without her specially heated swimming pool (It must be 82 degrees)

Or how about if you declare a war on a country, you have to go live there within four years of declaring the war. After all, if a leader is serious about winning a war - four years should do it. We beat Germany in less than 12 months from the time we landed at Normandy - and even the Pacific War lasted only all of 1942,'43,'44, and to Aug 1945 plus Dec 1941 -- a total of a mere 45 months.And you don't get to camp out in some stinkin' Green ZOne - you have to live wherever the normal citizens of the country do.
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Mnemosyne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Great idea, TD! Who wouldn't love to see every one of *co cringing at
the sound of gunfire!

And no one that can start a war can profit even one cent from the war. Bet we wouldn't have attacked Iraq if they couldn't profit.

If they would just listen to us!
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Sorry To Be Cynical About This
But good luck with getting them to sign a contract that makes them responsible to the people. We'd have to get rid of everyone there first and start all over again.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'll consider accepting your appology;)

If you have a "permissione" / contract then the crooks won't go near politics. That's why I referenced the Republic of Venice - it worked and they were no less greedy than we are, just much more enlightened and more focused on success. They put a premium on being intelligent. There was no Bush in their very long history.

In addition, "meet the new boss, just like the old boss"... humans are fallible, they need restraints. That's the beauty of the Venice analogy. They were by far the most sophisticated nation-state ever, imho; they lasted hundreds of years with this formal agreement.

ma perdonilo per essere così risoluto

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. "and anyone or any entity (company, union, etc.) that might approach me with a proposal for
legislation, regulation, or other action"

That would be a very big list. How would a candidate predict who would approach them regarding this?
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. They would report every specific request for help by the "big boys"
The idea is to hold their feet so tightly to the fire of intense observation, they'd have to go out of their way...to do their job. No more trips, more festive meetings where behind the scenes deals are cut that screw us. No more money either since this would force public funding, the spigot would run dry very quickly when donors realized they couldn't engage in legalized bribery.

There is surely a better way to write such a contract but it SHOULD NOT be written by anybody in office now. It's time us to run things. If they want to keep screwing around they need to take a hike. For example, Boxer put up a bill to address the frightening rate of melting we're seeing in the polar ice cap, huge increase nobody predicted - happening right now. Even the most aggressive predictions of climate change didn't anticipated that this would happen. Guess who showed up to offer up an alternative, half ass measure - that Lieberman for Connecticut guy, Joe. This is life or death time and that lizard is screwing things up.

Imagine a nation ruled by junkies...we have it, except their Jones is for money from The Money Party.

Screw them...we all work by rules and contracts...but THEY exempt themselves form all sorts of rules that they promulgate for the rest of us, including taking money from 3rd parties to influence their decisions. This must end. They didn't do public financing. In fact, McCain opposes it. Adios to all of them soon I hope. We can't take it any more.

But that's just my opinion;)



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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Short of getting "them" to sign such a contract, at this point in our history...
...ads in major newspapers in every city, and television ads (fat chance) would at least get the public thinking about this. Hello, MoveOn.org?

But time is of the essence, and too many citizens think Venice is a place down by the beach near Hollywood where the rollerblading is way cool!

For you, a voice crying in the wilderness is way cool, too, and your efforts are greatly appreciated.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
8. "real accountability on the part of elected officials" Wouldn't that be great!
Thanks for your efforts, auto! :patriot:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Here's an idea...

Send it to the current crew in charge in Ohio, see if they'll bite.

They could be a model for politicians everywhere (he said ironically;)

:hi:
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
9. Your money party trying to head off the Al Gore freight train
I'm pretty sure Gore has them shaking in their boots.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x60448

K&R....
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Great way to start my day;)

They're terrified but they won't be smart enough to do anything about it before they're overwhelmed.

Once someone looks like they're in a commanding lead, the rest come and bow down. Dean got a little
of that but there was the tear down going on. Well, this time it won't work.

If Gore makes his move, he'll have to neutralize the vote villains by actually raising the issue and
threatening them for a change.

Things are very bad right now and not getting better. Republican lite doesn't work: best represented
by Mark Penn, a union busting PR guy running HRC's campaign. Wow that takes us back to our roots (in
the post reconstruction South).
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
11. "lousy leaders" is like calling Al Capone a tax evader . . .
these people are criminals . . . they have committed untold numbers of war crimes, crimes against humanity, and other assorted legal transgressions . . . they have robbed the U.S. Treasury blind, and put the nation in debt from which it will never emerge . . . in a sane world, they would have been tried, convicted, and imprisoned long, long ago . . . in an insane world, they just keep doing their shit -- and no one (i.e. Congress) has the balls to try to stop them . . .
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. k&r
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Hold them accountable AND develop better ways to get around the
wholly owned media. The people aren't stupid, and most of them do care. But they have to be given hope and they have to be reached with the truth.

K & R - thanks, autorank!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. Mmmmmm ... accountability.
That's a novel idea for Washington, D.C! It seems we are on the path of merely putting the U.S. under new management in a new boss same as the old boss kind of way.

There is nothing that depresses me more than the thought of handing over enhanced presidential powers to a candidate who punctuated their yes vote for war (the IWR) with another for more war (the Kyl-Lieberman amendment).

K&R for and with the last bit of hope I can muster. And if Al Gore announces he's going to sort out the planet by running for president, my faith will be restored.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
17. your numbers are wrong
In 1999 there were 1.3 million people in prison and another 6.3 million on probation or parole. Many of those are convicted felons who cannot vote. 1.96 million people were receiving home health care or hospice care, some of those are probably too sick or incapacitated to vote. Same with the 1.5 million people living in nursing homes. There are 30.9 million people with a severe disability including 4 million people under the age of 65 who need personal assistance with one or more activities of daily living or instrumental activities of daily living.

Thus, of the 98 million who did not vote in 2004, I think there are at least 15 million who can't, either for legal or physical reasons. In fact, I find there were only 187 million in 1999 who had a driver's license, so the number may be as high as 30 million.

There is no denying though, that an extra 40 million people did not vote in 2006, but I am thankful for that since many of those who didn't vote were Republican voters.

You produce no evidence, however, to show that 'they all suck' is the main reason for staying home. You also seem to accept that if the 40% that doesn't vote thinks it's true, then it must be true, and not just a false perception created by negative campaigns and negative journalism and generally promoted by the RWNM ("government sucks").

American experience with trials shows that the side that can hire the more expensive lawyer is more likely to win.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. So are yours but you have a point on theex felons, maybe 3.0 million
of the 5.9 million total currently or permanently disenfranchised need to be that way. Many states have programs to restore the franchise and if you're motivated, you can get help form people like The Advancement Project http://www.advancementproject.org to help you. But that's a lot of trouble to go to when "it makes no difference." It is a great scandal, of course, since the disenfranchisement was part of the grand plan when Reconstruction was stopped - namely to deny black people the vote. It was embedded in the Mississippi Constitution of 1890. The process is specifically racist, yet it has it's defenders.

As for the others you mentioned, according to one survey in NY State, the preferred method of voting, for those with handicaps is absentee ballots. Disabled people have the choice to request those and they can get help doing so, more than the felons. If you're comatose, right, but that's a small number.

As for "no difference, they're all a bunch of crooks" - take a look at the various surveys out there. People think it doesn't matter, 'no difference' and/or 'the system is corrupt' or objectionable in some way. I said it was "the common answer" and it is when you combine categories.

To me it doesn't matter if the non voters are Republicans or Democrats, non voting is a statement and the overwhelming statement is - there's no point. That's a real comment on the system. The attraction of this group to the political process in some ways will measure improvements but I'm not optimistic. Just look at 2006, people just didn't vote.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. to say that "there's no point" does not have to be a statement on corruption
It may just be a statement on the powerlessness of the individual. As one of 300,000 votes in my Congressional district, my own vote carries an infinitesimal amount of power. The odds of my vote actually deciding an election are about the same as my odds of winning the powerball. Only a big prize, like the presidency, can induce more people to buy a ticket, or cast a vote.

Another way 'there is no difference' is that all candidates run on a platform of "truth, justice, mom and apple pie" and as you listen to them, or learn about them it may be (A,D,D,A,A,D,D) vs. (D,D,A,A,D,A,A) on your seven top issues. The edge to the second candidate is pretty slight. Plus, the polls tell us who will win, so why goto the trouble?

As a participant in the system, it still seems to me that there is more wrong with the people who do not vote than there is with the system, or with our candidates.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Well, those are interesting points. I've made them before but I've changed
on the "there's not difference, they're all a bunch of crooks" crowd.

Before I defend them, and they deserve a defense, let me disclose that I plan to vote every time
there's an election and I want every one to do the same. I also want them to go to the polls and
ask to watch votes counted, participate as a poll watcher or a poll worker, give money to the candidate
that's most important even if, as I have to do time after time, they need to pick the lesser of two
evils. I've done all of the above and much more, with the exception of being a poll worker,

HOWEVER

Here's the case for the no difference crowd

1) 2006 was a clear statement on Iraq. The people wanted prompt action to get out promptly. No
doubt about that. Key issue expressed clearly. What happened? There was no action. The Democrats
fell for a false issue - defunding the war was somehow not supporting the troops. People know that's
stupid since supporting the troops means not sacrificing their lives, their health, and the well
being of their families. The simple answer that any one knows is this - we'll fund their fully safe
withdrawal.But that didn't happen. What we got instead were two votes on Lieberman amendments that
gave the wink & nod green light to attacking Iran - one in April (97 Yea - 0 Nay) and another
recently (75 Yea - 22 Nay). What's the difference? While each of those contained some conciliatory
language, the Senators all knew that the language was meaningless in view of the powers of the
president to wantonly declare war. The Republicans are a disaster on this issue but here we have
100% of the Democrats present for the first and half present for the second amendment that provides
the tyrant cover to start another disastrous war, this time with a nation more than twice the size of
Iraq and a military that is much stronger.

So "what's the difference?" - we elect them to get us out and they buy into another war? That's
much worse than being a "bunch of crooks," it's positively repellent form a moral and strategic
point of view.

2) The polar ice cap is melting at a rate much faster than the most advanced scientists predicted
it would. Ice mass the size of Great Britain is melting each week. Boxer proposed a bill that would
have actually addressed the issue, according to some decent commentators. But what did we get
competing, an amendment from, you guessed it, the Lieberman for Connecticut guy that's a half
measure. Terrific. "What's the difference?" This Lieberman guy gets touted in the MSM as pro
environment, but instead he shills for the energy industry. But even he's better than the nightmare
neanderthals in the Republican party like Inhoff? What do these people have in their hip pockets,
a free pass to another planet when this one stops functioning? But that's not all, there's the
fire in the Amazon, our oxygen source (this is so absurd, I can barely write it). What's being done
for that. Nothing, everybody is preoccupied with Iraq, which is driving us to a fiscal catastrophe.

So "what's the difference?" We've got an opposition that cannot mobilize on the most critical
issue around - literally the survival of the planet and a president with his party constituting the
ignorant leading the equally ignorant. Again, it's worse than being a "bunch of crooks," it's
really nuts and represents the epitome of negligence.


I don't agree with not voting but I do say that there are powerful arguments to say "there's no
difference, they're all a bunch of crooks?" Those who choose not to vote may not have this
rationale, they may be just speaking from there gut or intuition. However, the idea is not to
show your work, it's to get the right answer. This is a legitimate right answer, whether you
agree or not on an individual basis. It's certainly more logical than that 97-0 Senate vote
to send an attack Iran valentine to the president.

The task is to come up with a party or a movement that attracts the "no difference, etc." non
voters into motivated and participating citizens.

I hope they all see an appeal something like mine which both respects their choice and, at the same
time, tries to hook them into civic action. The stakes are too high to stay on the sidelines.
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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. And the Oscar goes to....Autorank, THE MAN!
The most concise and actionably intelligent thing I've read here in forever (including :blush: my very own posts)!

We the Dems are so frightened that we'll see another Repub administration that we're forgetting the power we have. Yes, the candidates are human and will bring some flaws to the table, but selling us out to monied interests is flat unacceptable.

The only problem I see that we'll have to overcome is that banishing corrupt politicians from our own "Venice" means we'd have to invade some country and take over its land to have space for all the rejectees. (No, we ain't having them out here in the Southwestern desert!)

Seriously, this is an idea whose time has come, if we are to survive as a free nation.





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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Lets sign them up now! This or something better, doesn't matter as
long as it binds them tightly to observable criteria. They'd all quit, no revolving door - they couldn't take a job with Big Pharma like Tauzin did...they'd say, "So what's in it for me."

In Arizona they went to some kind of public financing for state races and got a much broader range of pepole in their leg. I don't know much about this so some AZ person correct me but that's the basic deal...teachers, union people etc.

There should be no outside money in races but why not this until it comes.

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puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Where can we start?
From your previous article:

We let this happen. We can change it. The first step is to name it, and we just did.

The Irish fought for 800 years to win their independence from the worlds most powerful empire. Generations came and went before the goal even seemed possible. They never gave up.

Now its our turn.


I'm Irish, in part. Where do we send in a Trojan Horse? Four to eight more years of corporatocracy seems a done deal at the presidential level (though we can always hope and work for something better), but what would be a good strategy? Letters to the editor with your Contract with the Citizens included? What think? How can we create a viral campaign to get this seen?
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. k&r
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
24. Corruption repellent.
keep the corrupt ones in Big Oil, insurance, and show business where they belong.

So this pledge will be up and running by '08 you say?

Is that one of Turner's paintings of Venice? What a guy!

You too. ;-)

Recommended.

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Here's one for you...
I'm going to start referring to myself as "The Most Serene Poster" - nobody will agree with "serene"
but that's because they the depths of my mellowness...:)

:hi:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. The what the depths of your who now?
Change the "Peace Corp" duty thing to having them work on the grounds of my ancestral estate. We've fared so very poorly since the Russian occupation of the late 1800s.

I just know that the Kurovski fortunes will see an upturn if only I can get a few serfs under my belt.

I can assure that they will be handsomely compensated for their toil with rye, barley, and a plump chicken or two. They will as well be beaten with great infrequency and deep regret.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 09:52 PM
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30. This is what accounability looks like
Nice ideals. Would be a clunky chant.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:29 PM
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31. Kick..
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 01:38 AM
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32. Kick. (nt)
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