I don't know how to make this clear - but I will try -

[Joe for Clark]

If you stick somebody - in the stomach say - they don't die right away. They scream - for their mother - whatever - they cry. Takes a long time to die that way.

That is war - it is just the way it is. Movies are not war. People don't die quitely.

It is not MGM and they are not John Wayne - the above - that is what happens. And people have to live with what they did - this kind of thing - and it fucks them up.

It is funny - some people think casualties are really counted in dead and wounded - hell, that is just the begining. It gets a lot worse.

Take a decent kid and put them in an immoral situation - where the lack of morality means life and death - you have no idea how fucked up people can come back from that.

It is the absolute tragedy of war- the dead - they don't live with the nightmares.

We just killed a generation. They are screwed. I will never in my heart ever forgive this "president". Never. I know what he did to those dumb kids.

Joe

[CoffeeCat]

1. I worry about our returning soldiers...

...and the high numbers coming home with PTSD.

I have PTSD due to childhood stuff. It is an insidious, tricky condition. When
you delay feeling emotions to keep yourself safe--you develop a sophisticated
cluster of coping skills that are very hard to deal with.

You need a caring, professional therapist who understands PTSD and gives you
support and good advice. I'm lucky. I see a PTSD expert who is nationally
known. He was on the first team sent to the OK City bombing.

It's taken me nearly 5 years to get grounded and to become functional. HOwever,
I still have bad days.

I worry about these soldiers when I hear that they are practically dumped once
they return home. And the long waits for therapy and the military not taking
seriously PTSD. It really frightens me.

I imagine that the numbers of lives ruined, marriages destroyed, children scarred
and human beings wasted--will be in such high, high numbers.

It's disgraceful that we don't take care of our soldiers when they return from war.
We did this to them after Vietnam. It's hard to believe that it will happen again.

[Joe for Clark]

8. We did mistreat those kids after Viet Nam - I thought never

again - I will not tolerate that - I am pissed to this day about those kids that came home - they were just kids - they did what they were told - I have many bad feelings about what happened in VN.

These kids now- maybe a 150 thousand were ever there at one time. But you remember never more than half actually fought. You look at a PTSD rate of 33% - that is 33% of the 50% of the kids that even saw trouble. Sort of picks up your radar if your kid was really in a fight - don't it??

They will try and screw those kids - they will.

And we cannot let that happen. Not again.

Joe

[spanone]

51. i also worry about returning mercenaries....very scary

[alittlelark]

2. There is hope for them.

Psychology has come a long way. It will take $$$ and time - but I believe there is hope.

I cannot believe we will allow another generation to suffer in the same way.

[Joe for Clark]

4. The army will screw them - no doubt in my mind.

This cannot be allowed.

Joe

[alittlelark]

5. The politicos... not the Army proper

I hope you are wrong.... the next 18-24 months will tell us all we need to know.

[Joe for Clark]

7. We already know they are going to get screwed.

[alittlelark]

10. If you believe it to be so.....

Try to have faith that we have learned from our past mistakes.... there is hope - 18-24 months. If nothing happens w/in that time frame you are right.... I HOPE not.

[Joe for Clark]

12. I don't think we have longer than that to correct the

mistake - I think we better not wait around to find out.

Joe

[Gregorian]

3. And the poor Iraqis, too.

I think of the children who have only known a life under sanctions and tanks rolling through the streets. Those poor people. Terrorized by America. And by Saddam.


Edit- And right you are. Our god damned tv's have duped so many people. Like spectators of some sports event.

[Joe for Clark]

6. The Iraqis - I have no sympathy.

Our kids - we asked them to die to protect an idea of democracy in Iraq - where the hell were they??

A lot of our kids blood was spilled in the hope they would use the opportunity to build something - they more then failed.

The Iraqis can go to hell.

One american kids life - just one - did not need to die there - they never wanted us to begin with.

SO when I say they can go to hell - I mean it word for word.

War is a very bad concept - to do it - it dooms a lot of kids - and they sure don't have to die to get screwed.

For what??? - This isn't WWII and these people have no clue what price has really been paid for them. They can go straight to hell.

Joe

[Gregorian]

9. Holy crap.

I'll just back away now.

But I'll say one last thing. You really ought to think a little about the people who are being attacked by us. They're humans too. And they bleed the same blood. And have the same thoughts. There is nothing special about Americans above and beyond anyone else on this planet.

[Joe for Clark]

11. It is a fucking war isn'it??

And I absolutely think american kids are better -I am american - and I know those kids. I know they are good kids.

It is what war is you know - that is why you shouldn't ever do it unless you have to.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. No Joe, they are not better

this is pure jingoism, and it is dangerous

You have now succesfully created the other in your mind

Mission accomplished by those who sent your son over there.

Read this

DULCE ET DECORUM EST1

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares2 we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest3 began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots4
Of tired, outstripped5 Five-Nines6 that dropped behind.

Gas!7 Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets8 just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes10 and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,11 choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud12
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest13
To children ardent14 for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.1

It is so sweet to die, for one's country... that is the translation of the sweet old lie

[Joe for Clark]

23. Really - You have no idea what you are talking about

do you??

I think you make this misjudgement about right and wrong - I think.

Right and wrong have nothing at all to do with duty -at all.

It is like this - you are a young "soldier boy" - you do what your country tells you to do - and you do it the best you can. You cannot ask questions about the political - not your job.

WE are supposed to be that political link. We are responsible in the end for that right and wrong. They just do the job they are told to do.

DO I think american kids are somehow better than other kids in war - you bet I do - you know why - they do exactly what the country wills them to do - without question.

In this case, they got fucked - and they knew it - and they still did their job.

Sweet to die for one's country - you have any idea at all how war really works??

The whole idea is to make the other bastard die for his country - really true.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. The old lie is still true

and yes you forget, I have more than just a damn clue

The old lie... it is so sweet to die for one's country. Owen got it...

Perhaps many of those kids ON BOTH SIDES will get the old lie too.

The reality is... they are human, all of them. They all bleed red.

And they all die, horrible deaths, becuase of the old lie... the ancient lie... that ties them to Warriors across history

And troops, they fight for each other, not for king or country

They fight to come home

That is the truth.

They don't fight for apple pie, or the American way, they fight to come home.

And it is not for them to ask why, but do to or die.

[Joe for Clark]

30. I don't know what you know - I am not sure where you are coming

from.

I know this for a fact though -- those kids did what they were told, and they did it well.

Right and wrong have nothing to do with it.

I hear again someone - anyone call those kids mercenaries - they can go to hell and then they can live on the poverty wages they get paid.

Nadin - my parents commanded those kids - my brothers were those kids - and now my kid is one.

You been on those parade ground - you have any doubt at all that those are good kids??

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Some of those kids are NOT good kids

And that is the truth

That does not make them mercs, but not all of them are good.

I commanded some of those kids

I was an officer in an army, you know that.

And it is true what Tennyson wrote.

It is not for us to ask why,

but to do or die

Troops don't make policy

And unlike you, been under fire. and they all bleed red.

Civilians, military and even the actual real mercs I despise.

Moreover, they didn't go there for democracy, or to look for WMDs, and that is where they were betrayed. They weren't sent to defend this country either.

But theirs is still do do or die.

Even if they were sent for Empire.

How appropriate

To do or die...

The charge of the light brigade... part of an imperial war.

Tennyson got it, and so did Owen.

The old lie...

So sweet do die for one's country.

And it is high time you get it... this is NOT a noble war. This disaster also has NOTHING to do with democracy, or national security, but the wishes and desires of a few white old men, who's greed placed your son in the cross hairs. And these white old men are essentially cowards. This is an occupation and what those kids are fighting are those who are defending THEIR country. And don't tell me that if this country was invaded and occupied by an alien force you would not defend this country. If you do... then I will say it, you are full of it.

Yes, it is far more complex than just going, fuck the Iraqis and they can go to hell

But for the troops on the ground

It is still for them to do or die and not to ask why.

[Raksha]

46. No, it is NOT a fucking war - it's a fucking occupation!

The "war," such as it was, ended with "Mission Accomplished."

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe for Clark]

36. What is sociopathic drviel - what does that consist of exactly

I am curious.

Joe

[Lilith Velkor]

55. post #6

In which you opine that the citizens of a country that never attacked us "can go straight to hell" because they are insufficiently grateful to the few thousand who died in the process of slaughtering over a million of them.

I suppose it's par for the course here, we're just gonna keep on jacking off to WWII until we pay the ultimate price for it. I just hope I'm not here when it happens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. You can blame your leaders for that

if we were invaded, I am betting you would defend your country too

This jingoism is exactly what keeps wars going

Yes, American troops and Iraqui civilians will pay for this for years to come

Hell, my father still has nightmares from WW II...

So get off that horse... he was one of those civilians you despise so much

[Whisp]

27. o good god, Joe. You really don't believe it's about democracy

do you?
I really thought you knew better.....

[iverglas]

49. what the fuck is wrong with you?

It's a good thing that most people in the world get better teevee than you in the US do. Otherwise, we might think that everybody in the US is like you. Bad enough to know that you're not actually unique, and do in fact represent a very large number of your fellows.

Are you completely unable to see the bizarre conflict in your own juxtaposed statements??

The Iraqis can go to hell.
One american kids life - just one - did not need to die there - they never wanted us to begin with.

They did not want you to begin with. So they can go to hell now that you have murdered tens of thousands of them and destroyed the infrastructures of their society?

This isn't WWII and these people have no clue what price has really been paid for them.

What the HELL are you talking about?

No price is being paid for them. The price is being extracted from them. By the same vendors who are extracting a price from the people of the US to get what they want without paying for it themselves.

It's just that not too many children in the US are dying as a result. And not too many of the Iraqis who are dying actually signed on the dotted line to assume that risk.

There are indeed Us and Them in this world. Where you get your idea of who is in each group, I have no clue.

A US draft resister I knew in Toronto many years ago had a poster on his kitchen wall that I assume he had brought with him from home. It said:

CLASS CONSCIOUSNESS IS KNOWING WHICH SIDE OF THE FENCE YOU'RE ON.
CLASS ANALYSIS IS KNOWING WHO'S THERE WITH YOU.

Oh look. You can have one too:

http://lazarapress.ca/category/books/broadsides/
Poster; 17×22, full colour; $10.00.
Originally published by Press Gang Publishers.

Poster reads: “Class consciousness is knowing
which side of the fence you are on.
Class analysis is figuring out who is there with you.”




I'd suggest that you engage in a little figuring and stop behaving like an ugly, ignorant you-know-what. Your country exists in the world, and it's time it started behaving like part of the world. Start with yourself. Please. It really isn't in your interests for the rest of the world to despise you.

[Annces]

50. That is very amoral right there

To not care about someone because our country is fighting them.

Screwed up.

[Carolina]

53. Whoa

what did the people of Iraq do to deserve the shock and awe military attack by the US AND your ire?.

If war is a bad concept, then your empathy should extend equally to the innocents WHO WERE ATTACKED without cause.

You need help if you are blind to the suffering ON BOTH SIDES! That you can even write: "They can go straight to hell" speaks volumes about you.

[windbreeze]

14. OH, yes I do....understand....

and I kept saying to everyone who would listen, those service guys/gals who come back will never be the same...and their loved ones will never understand...they can't...they weren't there...they try to convince themselves otherwise, but the ones who served know better...

however, Joe...we must remember and take into consideration...the Iraqi's did NOT attack us...we attacked them...and that was AFTER 12 years of very harsh sanctions and almost constant bombing of their country...but before even that...we helped put Saddam in charge...yes, we did...so we have contributed to the suffering of the Iraqi's since way back...almost 50 years worth...

Then you must also consider...what would we do, if we woke up some morning, and we were being attacked by a foreign nation on our own soil? Would we fight back...would we kill, or attempt to kill or disable any foreign fighters that were trying to take our lives, or if they were known to be torturing our friends, or maiming our kids with their RPG's....????IF they were marching down the streets in our towns, or if their tanks were....Yes...we would...wb

[Joe for Clark]

19. I make no calculation if the Iraqis were right or wrong -

it doesn't matter.

We sent OUR kids to fight. They did so without judgment - they just did their job.

Do I really care about the Iraqis - not at all - if they wanted their country democtratic - they could have done something to gain it. They did not.

So - I have nothing more to consider. Except the blood of american kids that just did their job - and I know many of them thought it was crap to begin with - my god, I respect them so much for that.

Joe

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. If that was your country being invaded

I am betting you would be doing the same

In fact, the way you are talking (or writing) is the same the Brits refered to American patriots during the war of independence

You have succesfully created the other.

George Bush and his ministry of truth has succeeded with you

Congratulations

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Not quite

we have a nasty economic draft going on as well as a back door draft

And they did not sign up for this

In the bargain there is an unwritten agreement that you and I would not let our leaders throw their lives away

I wish it was as simple as to say they are just killers

Just as Joe does not get the old lie, you don't get the actual agreement between troops and the civillian population

[Joe for Clark]

28. Yeah, right.

They volunteered to protect OUR country - that is why they went to war.

They never bargained for this crap. No sympathy for our soldiers?? What the hell country are you from??

Don't you have a yellow ribbon on your car? - sarcasim meant.

The dead Iraqi kids have your sympathy - they have all our sympathy - but they are not the ones trying to kill our kids either - are they??

You never ever went to a basic grad did you? I've been to a few. You know what - -you look over the parade grounds -and you see decent kids - good kids. All I ever saw in those eyes.

Our kids mercenaries - not for what they get paid.

Joe






Joe

[Tafiti]

29. Refusing to make such a calculation is being deliberately obtuse.

It does matter.

True, the kids just did their job, without judgment. But the fact remains that tens of thousands of hapless Iraqis suffered death as a result of their job-well-done.

You should care, because they didn't fucking ASK for a democratic country - we forced it on them with a heavy hand. You're coming at this with an ill-conceived notion that they begged us to come over there and get rid of Saddam Hussein and install a democracy. In case you missed it, they didn't. It was George Bush's idea, and he didn't ask any Iraqis their fucking opinion on the matter.

You really should consider more. Consider the context - it matters. Willfully blinding yourself to it serves no purpose, especially not your own.

Empathy - look into it sometime.

[Joe for Clark]

33. And what does that have to do with asking children to do the

technical part of war??

Don't confuse the moral with the technical.

Joe

[Tafiti]

37. Hmm, well, it does help to know WHY we asked them to do it.

Unfortunately, the "moral" and the "technical" are inextricably intertwined - we have to ask WHY they were sent to do the "technical part of war," and assign the blame where it lies. Apparently you haven't gotten that far. Or if you have, the blame is misplaced, to say the least.

Judging by your posts in this thread, it would be pointless to prolong this back-and-forth any further. You refuse to see beyond your own nose.

Ask yourself how far you want to take your own logic. Imagine instead that not one American soldier, in 4 1/2 years of war over there, has been killed. Would you be against the war? I think the obvious answer is no, since any deaths the Iraqis incurred were merely the cost of that "democracy" you seem to think they asked for. I don't know whether your utter lack of concern for anyone other than American soldiers is a result of racism, or xenophobia, or ethnocentrism, but frankly, it doesn't belong at DU.

[Joe for Clark]

38. I guess you have no clue where I am coming from.

Technical part of war - you know what that even means??

Technical and moral are forever seperate. Cause we are competent to do something does not make it moral -it never will.

Racisim - funny - if they are american I guess I am "racist" -I do not care about any ethnicity other than country - I really don't care.

Are american soldiers - black, white, what ever better - they are and they proved it on so many battlefields -

Utter lack of concern for anyone other than american soldiers - I guess that is about right - I know those kids are good kids - I know.

It doesn't belong on DU - who the hell are you?? Someone elect you god???

Joe

[Tafiti]

43. Guess not.

"Technical part of war - you know what that even means??"

I fail to grasp whatever importance there is in making such a distinction.

"Technical and moral are forever seperate. Cause we are competent to do something does not make it moral -it never will."

Yeah, sure, in a literal sense. But again, I don't know what this has to do with anything. And to be clear, I'm not criticizing the troops - any and all blame for this war should be directed at the Bush administration. I'm taking issue with your ridiculous belief that American lives are intrinsically worth more than Iraqi lives. Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

"Racisim - funny - if they are american I guess I am "racist" -I do not care about any ethnicity other than country - I really don't care."

Great. You swiftly refuted my racism charge, only to substantiate my xenophobic/ethnocentric charge. Clue: It's not much better, if at all.

"Utter lack of concern for anyone other than american soldiers - I guess that is about right - I know those kids are good kids - I know."

Further proving my point...

"It doesn't belong on DU - who the hell are you?? Someone elect you god???"

It doesn't. And don't get me wrong, just my humble opinion. I suspect many others would agree with me, but that's for another thread perhaps.

[Joe for Clark]

40. I was a little harsh - I didn't mean to be -and I apologize for that.

Don't judge from facts you do not have - thats all.
You really don't know me - so don't put words in my mouth.

Joe

I still think it is weird - racisim as not inter america - a strange concept.

[Joe for Clark]

41. intra american I - mean

[Tafiti]

44. You're fine.

Whatever facts I might be missing, there's nothing that would make me either retract any of my comments or judge any less harshly any of yours.

I never said I knew you, and your words speak clearly for themselves. They're unambiguous, and I therefore feel confident in the conclusions I draw from them. In fact, you continue to reinforce them.

"I still think it is weird - racisim as not inter america - a strange concept."

This sentence does not make sense to me.

[Carolina]

54. besides we didn't go over there to export democracy ...

A host of false justifications beginning with WMDs, imminent threat, mushroom cloud ... were used early and often to brainwash the US sheeple! This whole notion of eliminating the evil Saddam (yeah, because he knew too much about US) and creating a democratic haven evolved from the misadministration and talking heads after MISSION ACCOMPLISHED proved to be wrong: no weapons, no threat, ALL LIES, ALL the TIME.

The Iraqis are the innocents here. We invaded their nation; we bombed them to smithereens and dare to expect them to be grateful? WTF! The troops being used as fodder by the power elite are the second innocents. And Joe's lack of understanding and empathy of this is beyond frightening.

[Tafiti]

56. Agreed.

The reasons NOT to be there are endless, but that's obviously not what Joe is ultimately concerned with. His concern rests solely with the troops who are giving their lives. That's all well and good, but not at the explicit exclusion of the thousands and thousands of innocent civilians who were shot with our bullets or blown up by our bombs. Even the insurgents who have killed innocent civilians indirectly points the finger at us for being there in the first place. War is ugly, but to claim that it's only ugly solely for the loss we've borne is even uglier.

Joe's position here is extreme even to some right-wingers - that's the frightening part. I think it's obvious that those who recommended this thread didn't read through it. The only recognition it deserves is to put on full display his deplorable and extreme xenophobia.

[BelgianMadCow]

39. "no calculation whether Iraqis are right or wrong - doesn't matter"

Are the Iraqis second hand people or what?? They did NOT ask to be illegally invaded did they?

Your attitude is typical of self-centered thinking. Hundreds of thousands Iraqis have been killed, including innocent and children. Millions displaced.

I know what I would do if you came in here to kill my son, owww yeah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Joe the casualties are more than just the dead

and the physically wounded

Our country glorifies war and keeps the effects as far away as they can from civvies

Those of us who have been there, done that, know better.

[Joe for Clark]

31. There is sure no glory in war.

[Raejeanowl]

17. I Think of His Years in Office, Also

And how thoroughly he's f*cked over the country in other ways, and how long it will take to put to rights. And if the process doesn't get him one way or another (please God, let justice be served, somehow), he will be out there earning big $ on the lecture circuit within six months, pointing to what the incompetent (Dem) or fledgling (Rep) new administration hasn't done yet, and what the Democratic Congress didn't LET him do, and how every unfulfilled promise was someone else's fault because they didn't subscribe to his vision. And building his Presidential Library.

So the kids you're talking about come back with screwed up heads to a screwed up country in a screwed up military that will try and probably succeed in reneging on help and compensation for all of their losses and injuries.

Didn't we do this just a couple-three decades ago? Didn't we learn anything from it?

[SeattleGirl]

21. Bush has totally fucked up an entire generation.

Not just the military personnel who went to Iraq, but their families and friends.

May Bush rot in fucking hell for eternity for what he has done.

I will never forgive him either.

[Joe for Clark]

32. Well put!!

[Nutmegger]

25. Joe for Clark!

It's really good to see you. I hope all is well with you my friend. :hi:

(R&K!)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe for Clark]

35. Well, I guess you do not know our kids.

I think I do.

Joe

[Raksha]

47. Who the hell CARES if you "know our kids"?

You obviously don't know the Iraqis, nor do you want to.

[ConsAreLiars]

42. Joe, you got right to the heart of the costs of an unjust war.

Is it worse to be an innocent who gets murdered or the one who kills that innocent?

Well, the killer has to somehow live with that awareness (suppressed, denied, justified, whatever), but at least gets to live and maybe atone. But the pain lasts longer, and the risk of losing any claim to being human is far greater. I wish that those who found themselves in such circumstances will understand that they were put there by inhuman powers, and were victims as well.

[Kurovski]

45. K&R. (nt)

[WilliamPitt]

52. Yo Joe

The North:

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/&articleid=321443

[ruiner4u]

57. K&R!

You rock Joe!