shouldn't fathers teach their sons not to murder if their girlfriend leaves

[donsu]

thinking about the young cop who killed his ex girlfriend and a bunch of others.

how did it become usual for a boy or man to batter, murder girls, women over lust/love?

do teen boys have a magazine like teen girls do.

do teen boys read anything but sports, etc. like good advice from men that it is not cool to batter, murder girls/women that leave them. and how to survive emotionally when they do and they will.


yes, yes many boys are taught non violence, my own included; but apparently there are many more boys that are not taught and do not know how to handle rejection.

[aikoaiko]

1. yes, and not to murder anyone else, too.

[Rhythm and Blue]

2. I haven't seen any evidence

that domestic abuse and murder rates have been rising.

[Iris]

3. I don' think it's usual.

I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of young men who do not kill or harm in any way women who leave them.

[book_worm]

4. maybe even millions.

[Iris]

8. yeah. My first guess was millions but then I'm not sure what the population of young men

under 21 is in this country!

[tularetom]

11. Yeah but unfortunately a lot of people with this control freak attitude

seem to become police officers. My son was a cop for about five years and quit because he was tired of dealing with the fragile egos of his co workers. This kid took it as a personal slap in the face that a chick would dump him and got even with her by killing her. Apparently a lot of cops would have a similar, if less extreme, reaction to the same situation. According to my kid, stalking of exes was not uncommon among his fellow officers and a few even went so far as to get their buddies to ticket for no apparent reason the women who dumped them.

The psychological screening they give these guys is missing something. Or maybe the police departments want jealous, possessive insecure little boys running around with guns.

[juno jones]

34. Yup, my ex husband ran into that problem

(before he met me...) He was dating a girl who had been seeing a cop and had broken up with him. The cop made a point of busting all of her parties for noise and whatnot and even stalked my ex, arresting him for 'drunk in public' (after he walked home from a bar) and at one point putting him in what we would now call a 'stress position' despite his arms would not rotate in that direction due to surgeries. This was 20 years ago. Anyone who wants to be a cop should be the last person they hire IMHO.

[supernova]

5. A lot of boys grow up without good male role models

They don't see older men expressing their anger and anxieties appropriately. These guys who have disagreements with women in their lives and don't know how to control themselves and turn to abuse instead. :-(

[donsu]

6. cops go on domestic abuse calls more then any other

say that again

more domestic abuse calls then any other kind of call.

[Phillycat]

7. What fathers?

There is a huge epidemic of fatherless families in this country, and a culture that believes it's okay to have multiple "baby daddies" who have no responsibility to the kid.

[MethuenProgressive]

9. Fathers teach their sons to murder?

"Son, stay back in your stance, get a good pitch to hit, swing slightly up, and don't forget to murder your girlfriend if she leaves you."
:eyes:

[donsu]

12. no, he talks about how to deal with rejection, unrequited love/lust

that's showing them how not to be violent when on emotional overload.

[mondo joe]

13. You seem to think violence is the default and boys need to be told to not do it.

It's not the norm, it's not the default and the vast majority of men know that it's not acceptable.

[goodgd_yall]

19. Why so defensive?

It is a problem. Sometimes women are made to feel unsafe by ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends too. This never makes the news, but it happens enough times that the subject of the OP should at least be acknowledged rather than dismissed.

[mondo joe]

21. Because I think illogical propositions need to be addressed and corrected.

Did you think the men who kill were simply never informed that murder is illegal?

[shanti]

33. it's not the norm

but males are inherently aggressive and that has to be addressed. usually the father does this, but when dad's absent, it's up to mom to do it. it's not easy being a dad AND a mom!

[iverglas]

27. I give up

Who said that?

If no one said it, why are you questioning it?

[Throd]

10. Dad never had to tell me it was wrong to murder people

[donsu]

14. perhaps a mandatory class in H.S. teaching how to handle rejection & loss

life is loss and change

kids need help in knowing how to handle all that

[goodgd_yall]

20. That is the crux

How to deal with loss and rejection, or rather, feelings of rejection. Just learning it's wrong to kill isn't enough. When a person's emotions are overwhelming, values of right and wrong can go out the window. It's what happens in many crimes---the perpetrator knew it was wrong, but lost control. So, I think the learning needs to be personal---strategies for living.

[SoCalDem]

23. ANY teacher who dared to broach that subject would be accused

of being a touchy feely liberal and where do they get off trying to teach the kids to be LOSERS :evilgrin: Life is ABOUT winning.. being a winner and always being a winner:)

[mondo joe]

25. I would, frankly, prefer that HS teachers not be in the business of teaching about

hurt and loss. This is getting into extremely personal worldview issues and I have little faith that some random teacher will do a better job than I will with my kids.

What is important, IMO, is that kids get a good grounding in school in reason, civics and critical thinking (in addition to the core of reading, math, history etc).

[donsu]

51. the personal is political - HS should do more then cold information

HS should also teach kids how to bank, handle credit, loans, buying big ticket (cars).

[pitohui]

30. a CLASS? are you kidding? so this is about a jobs program for teachers?

fine, i got no problem w. teachers earning money, but come on, it's a scam

you learn about loss and rejection by experiencing loss and rejection, not in a class!

[SoCalDem]

36. and by parents teaching their kids that they are NOT the center of the universe

Sadly, it's not happening much these days..

Boys think that they "own" their girlfriends, and too many of these young girls call it "love".:cry:

[John Q. Citizen]

15. We are all taught that violence is the way to handle our problems. From the death

penalty to the Iraq War, to spanking the kids, violence is the solution of choice for our culture.

I don't think we can pin roots of the problem on any particular age group or gender.

It's all of us, excluding that minority of us who argue consistantly for non-violent solutions to problems.

Ever check out the rates of violence in lesbian relationships gone bad? It might surprise you. That isn't to say that lesbians are exceptional in this regard, only that violence is an accepted American solution to problems for a whole lot of people in our culture.

I agree that men more often actually commit acts of violence than do women, and younger adults commit more actual acts of violence than do older adults.

But is a women who encourages her boyfriend to kick somebody's ass because she feels they dissed her actually less violent than the boyfreind who does the deed?

That seems to be on a par with blaming women for over population because they are the ones birthing the babies. It's everybodies problem, just as violence is everybody's problem. And it's endemic in our society and crosses gender and age lines.

[JVS]

16. Our society places way too much value on having the affection of a woman

They need their new substitute for mommy or they'll freaking go nuts.

[goodgd_yall]

17. I don't get it

Why does it seem so difficult for them to let go and move on?

You're right though, these boys and men that turn to violence--this particular kind of violence--need help from the time they are young to handle disappointments in relationships so that they don't get eaten up by rage.

[SoCalDem]

22. "Modern" society teaches many young folks that everything's about THEM

It's not a far stretch to imagine that SOME of these narcissitic young people will not take rejection very well.. add a gun to the rejection-rage and you have a recipe for disaster.

The territorial part of the lizard brain of the young angry man makes it impossible for them to accept the fact that some other guy has/will soon have access to THEIR woman/girl..

Young women really need guidance when it comes to dumping a boyfriend these days.. It's no longer enough to just say "I quit...and goodbye".

I'm glad I'm "old"..:)

[Deep13]

39. Ding! ding! ding! ding! We have a winnah! n/t

[JVS]

41. If it really taught them that it was all about THEM they wouldn't give a shit about other's opinions

Modern society teaches people that it's all about US

[Whisp]

47. yes, I think it's about 'ownership'.

if I can't have you no one will sorta of sick attitude.

[piedmont]

18. It's not "usual." And it's been in a long-term decline.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/intimates.htm#intimates

[iverglas]

26. did you read your link, perchance?

Here's what it actually says:

In recent years -

* About one third of female murder victims were killed by an intimate.

* About 3% of male murder victims were killed by an intimate.

* Of all female murder victims, the proportion killed by an intimate has been increasing.

* Of male murder victims, the proportion killed by an intimate has dropped.

The homicide rate OVERALL is declining in the US, but women who are killed by intimates as a proportion of all women homicide victims is rising.

Women engage in the kinds of activities and lifestyles that put men at risk of homicide in much lower proportions than men do, and this in part explains the higher proportion of women homicide victims who are killed by intimates.

But far fewer men than women, in absolute numbers, are killed by intimates:



Apart from that, your link addressed homicides, while the context in which the "usual" you quote was used was battering and homicides.

"Usual" might not be the best word. "Commonplace" might be better.

[piedmont]

49. Why, yes I did.

And the data there support the hypothesis that, in general, murdering one's lover/ex-lover is on the decline in the U.S for both men and women. Yes, the number of white females killed by an intimate is the same as in 1976, but that graph is of absolute numbers. We've aded about 90 million people in that time.
If you look at the rate per 100,000 and separate into married vs. non-married, the only category that has not fallen is white girlfriends.





Apart from that, your link addressed homicides, while the context in which the "usual" you quote was used was battering and homicides.
That's right. Although if the trends for battery didn't correlate with the trends in homicide, I would be interested to know why.


"Usual" might not be the best word. "Commonplace" might be better.

I agree.

[porphyrian]

24. Should we require fathers teach certain things? And how?

Of course, everyone should know that it's not OK to murder people in a fit of jealous rage. Certainly, a Sheriff's Deputy and part-time city Police Officer should be aware of that fucking law. You don't really think this is about what father's do or don't teach their kids, do you?

[donsu]

52. well some one didn't teach him how to handle rejection

and or he grew up watching the men around him use violence to cover rejection of any kind

[porphyrian]

57. Those are both your assumptions.

He was likely mentally ill, which is not something you can simply tell someone not to be. While that would normally seem improbable given his employment with two law enforcement agencies that presumably evaluate the mental condition of those they hire, it is obvious that a disturbing number of people fall through the cracks. But, if it makes you feel better, you can just blame the parents or men in his life. It makes you look ignorant, but that's your choice.

[pitohui]

28. how would this conversation work?

"son, by the way, if your girl dumps you, don't take an uzi to the party and hose everybody down with gunfire, it's tacky"

some things either go unspoken or if they have to be said, the kid is so mentally damaged that he won't be helped by hearing common sense anyway

you don't get to order your kid from a catalog, you get the kid you get, otherwise no one on earthw would be dad to a girlfriend murderer

[slackmaster]

29. My stepfather was an excellent role model, taught me non-violence

Yes, fathers should. Mothers too.

[lapislzi]

31. Correction: they do not commit violence for lust or love

That's a common fallacy, or false conclusion. Abusers, in this case men, commit violence against the abused because of control issues. Their entire psyche is tied up in exerting absolute control over the beloved. Killing is the ultimate form of control.

It comes up among those (men) who view their romantic partners as their personal property.

Boys learn by example, just like everyone else. If the controlling behavior is modeled, they'll imitate it.

[shanti]

32. mother's teach their sons this too!

speaking as a single mother...when dad's not around, it's up to us to teach our sons how to treat women, example being the best way. no means no and all that....

[NOLALady]

35. You think it might help if the Mothers, GrandFathers, or

extended family taught them? Sometimes Fathers aren't around, they can become ill and die. That's when a support system should step in. I guess I'm saying that I see no need to blame Fathers (only) for a child's behavior.

There is a problem with this entitlement attitude of many young people. There are some who could concentrate on teaching their kids that the world does not revolve around them. Kids should learn early that they are part of a community and not the center of that community. JMHO

[Arkansas Granny]

37. I don't think we can blame this type of behavior on fathers or

parents, in general, although they can have a major influence on behavior. My opinion for years has been that our children see way too much violence on tv, movies, in games and other places where it masquerades as entertainment and they become desensitized to it. It loses its shock value and appears to be the normal, if not favored, reaction to all sorts of problems. I am not condoning this type of behavior, but as long as our kids are subjected to seeing so much violence in all these disguises, we can expect to see more of the same. I realize this is not the only contributing factor, but I think it has a lot to do with it.

:-(

[Deep13]

38. Realistic, but unsatisfying answers.

"how did it become usual for a boy or man to batter, murder girls, women over lust/love?"

I don't know how, but it is a very old story.

"do teen boys have a magazine like teen girls do."

Teen girls have a magazine? My favorite magazine in high school was Hot Rod. So if you are wondering if boys read any get-in touch-with-your-feelings publications, the answer is no.

"do teen boys read anything but sports, etc. like good advice from men that it is not cool to batter, murder girls/women that leave them. and how to survive emotionally when they do and they will."

Um, no they don't.

"yes, yes many boys are taught non violence, my own included; but apparently there are many more boys that are not taught and do not know how to handle rejection."

I learned from experience. Typical life lesson to boys: win! win! win, goddammit! You don't want to be a loser, do you? Keep trying! WIN!!!!

Giving up and moving on is not part of the formula.

[sandnsea]

40. What do mothers teach?

The emotional trauma this individual carried wasn't just from bad fathering.

[Ghost in the Machine]

42. What about single mothers? Are they exempt from teaching sons this?

Or do you just automatically assume that they do?

Typical feminazi post: Blame the men! :puke:

[kineneb]

43. simple lesson for all children: violence does not solve problems.

Unfortunately, many of the violent adults were victims of violence as children. Children learn by example, and if Daddy is beating up Mommy all the time, the children absorb that lesson. Then they go out and beat up or kill their girlfriend, because they think violence in relationships is normal.

I have friends who were abused as children, and they will always bear the scars.

[Heidi]

44. Males AND females should be taught that companionship is NOT an entitlement.

When we get it, great. But no one owes us their life for leaving.

The best thing any of us, male or female, could learn as a young age is how to be emotionally, spiritually and financially independent.

[H2O Man]

45. Sure.

As should grandfathers, uncles, cousins, and older brothers. I would also include mothers, grandmothers, aunts, and older sisters.

While most young men do not become violent when they break-up with a girlfriend, it is often the event that is associated with things including homicide, suicide, and an initial episode of mental illness.

More, although there is plenty of evidence of such responses in other cultures, our high-tech society offers young people -- both male and female -- the weakest family support system in human history.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. That's one hell of an implicit assumption you've got there...

"how did it become usual for a boy or man to batter, murder girls, women over lust/love?"

I think you need to remove the word "how" from that question, at which point it becomes very easy - the answer is "no".

I don't know what gives you the idea that boys who aren't taught non-violence outnumber those who are, but you're wrong by several orders of magnitude.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. It's not usual, nor is it particularly new

Both your premises are bunk.

[kath]

50. A very good book about male violence is "Boys Will Be Boys: Breaking the Link Between Masculinity

and Violence" by Miriam Miedzian.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1590560353/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful/105-2874514-9205223?ie=UTF8&n=283155#customerReviews
I'm very pleased to see that it's still in print - I have the original edition, pub. in 1991, but it was re-published, with a new introduction, in 2002.

From the Table of Contents:
THE PROBLEM: THE ACCEPTANCE OF VIOLENCE AS A WAY OF LIFE

Ch. 1 When Male Behavior Is the Norm...
CH. 2 "Real Men", "Wimps", and Our National Security
Ch. 3 "Boys Will Be Boys"

TOWARD A SOLUTION; RAISING SONS FOR THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY

I. Bringing Up Baby When It's a Boy
Ch 4 Where Have all the Fathers Gone?
Ch 5 "You Can't Trust Men with Kids" and Other Objections Answered


II. School Programs That Work
Ch 6 When Boys and Babies Meet
Ch 7 Alternatives to FIstfights and Bullying
Ch 8 Taking the Glory Out of War and Unlearning Bigotry
Ch 9 Changing the Male Mind-set

III. Our Children: Commercial Market or Precious National Resource?

Ch 10 The culture of Violency
Ch 11 Sports: When Winning Is the Only Thing, Can Violence Be Far Away?
CH 12 TV: The Babysitter That Teaches Violence
Ch 13 Films and Videos: WHen Blood and Guts is Fun
Ch 14 Music and Wrestling" The :Joys" of Rape, Satanism and Bigotry
Chv 15 WHen the Toy STore Looks Like a Military Arsenal
Ch 16 Taking Children out of the Commercial Market

CONCLUSION: BEYOND THE MASCULINE MYSTIQUE

[donsu]

53. thank you

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. That's what I taught my boys.

Right after I taught them how not to rob banks with a rubber chicken, and before I taught them that they shouldn't go on machete-wielding rampages in fabric stores.

[yella_dawg]

55. Absolutely not!

It's our right as men to kill whomever we chose!


What kind of idiotic flamebait crap is this? It's fucking embarrassing.

[LSdemocrat]

56. If it was remotely "usual" for men to murder/abuse women who left them,

the world would have one heck of a gender imbalance. (or almost no intimate relationships)

[KeineAhnung]

58. Not non-violence

It isn't that I was taught non-violence but rather the appropriate uses for violence. Say, in the defense of women for example.

Also, I take a bit of exception at the comment that those who want to be police officers should be the last. That just comes off as plain ignorant on its face. Those of us who took a personal commitment to defending and helping others don't need that sort of moral blanket judgement.