Essential reading for those who still think we do not live

[nadinbrzezinski]

in a fascist state, or best case scenario a protofascist state

Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Third-Reich-William-Shirer/d...

And they thought they were free

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/511928.html

The end of America

http://www.amazon.com/End-America-Letter-Warning-Patrio...

It can't happen here

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0301001h.html

You may add to that list

The letters between Adamns and Jefferson

Thomas Paine's The Rights of Man


And of course Common Sense


The rise of a totalitarian state is not sudden... nor does it imply troops marching down the streets


Now go and read these things and educate yourself

Oh you may want to add John Dean's broken government and conservatives without a conscience... it is truly up to you if you also want to add worst than watergate

Spelling and grammar

[LakeSamish706]

1. Theres no doubt that the US is now under Facism.... The only question...

is weather it can be undone or not.... Is it complete, or do we need to see one more final big bang to finally cinch this? My guess is that one more bang is required before it becomes a done deal.....

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Closing the sociey is almost complete

I will not be shocked if tomorrow I cannot access the web, or leave the country... yes, we are that close

And today's USSC decision was another door we went through

State secrecy now trumps law and treaties

[Truthiness Inspector]

3. Ridiculous

Posts like this make DU look, well, ridiculous.

It grates on my nerves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Have you read any of the above tittles?

Perhaps you should

[Truthiness Inspector]

5. No I haven't

but I have spent time in countries that fit the definition of "fascism."

You are here right now speaking your mind. Without fear of reprisal. Enjoy it for chrissakes, instead of trying to victimize yourself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. So have I, in fact I grew up in one of them

Hell I also interviewed victims of totalitarian states...in my earlier years.

And I happen to hold a Master Degree in History and the old saying.. those refusing to learn from history are condemned to repeat it is applicable right now

now, do me a favor and go read them.

Perhaps, especailly with Paine and Jefferson, you will understand why they were so afraid of Tyranny... mostly they emerged from one.

Perhaps you will also get it why those documents our leaders are shreding are so damn radical.

I'd recommend you go read Naomi Wolf's first, she writes well and is aproachable... and maps for you the methods used by EVERY totalitarian regime to close down a society.

[Truthiness Inspector]

13. Thanks for a reasoned answer

but I cannot agree with you that fascism exists here, and the mere suggestion is offensive.

I know what I saw, I don't need to read your links (although I may bookmark them). There is a disconnect here sometimes that is tragic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. You are thinking of the late stages of a totalitarian state

the fact that you have not read any of the history prevents you from seeing what is happening right under your nose. And totalitarian states do not switch the lights off on fredom overnight. It takes years... and it is a slow process. Why I insist that if you have not read this... you have no idea how those places you saw went from point a to point b.

By the way, you know the definition of fascism? Let me give it to you, from Mussolini himself

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini

You are aware that American Corporations ARE CURRENTLY writing legislation?



I gave you the tip of the iceberg on required readying. Go read it... get informed

[defendandprotect]

82. Our founders knew that the Constitution wasn't sufficient and that ....

a Bill of Rights was essential --

How much of the bill of rights do you see under attack --

Or not?

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. First Ammendment

Fourth Ammendment

Those are the chief ones under attack right now.

[gollygee]

147. By the time it reaches the point where most people recognize it easily

it's too late to stop it.

That's why we have to be diligent about protecting our rights.

Read The End of America by Naomi Wolf. Really. It's a paperback so it isn't too expensive.

[Vilis Veritas]

176. The end began over 100 years ago when

corporation got person hood.

It is too late.

[earth mom]

268. Nadinbrzezinski is right-you need to educate yourself on this. nt

[puebloknot]

48. Naomi Wolf says, in "The End of America"...

...that people "go ballistic" (paraphrasing her here) whenever there is a comparison between Nazi Germany and the U.S. today. Likewise, but to a lesser degree, with comparisons with the Pinochet regime, etc. Naomi Wolf is, herself, Jewish, and she does not agree with the idea that to make such comparisons demeans the Jewish experience in WWII.

I also find it interesting that those who protest too much most often haven't even read the material which points out very clearly the basis for such comparisons.

[defendandprotect]

84. As we saw from Nazi Germany....the Germany people were moved along into a fascist state ---

just as we are being moved along into a fascist state ---

[puebloknot]

177. Yes, and even though there are variations on the theme, the main thesis...

...applies, that we are going through the "frog in a pot" scenario.

Just as a post like this at DU brings out the big guns of, for example, a young and admired writer who loses his manners, if ever he had any, in trying to refute this idea, there were those in Germany who were in equal states of denial. Germany, they said, was an enlightened society. And we've all heard the "It can't happen here" theme that *did* happen there.

I'm a "war baby," and I know from my father's experience in The War, as well as all the reading I've done, that we are in greater peril than the Good Americans want to acknowledge. And our "Goodness" these days is more of a trap than it was in Germany, circa 1939. We still labor under the illusion of our own superiority and of an unfailing economic system. I fear it will take a real "taking down" before most of America wakes up, and by then it may be too late.

At some deep level, we *all* know we're being moved along into a fascist state, and the underlying fear causes all kinds of reactions -- some of which are to throw darts at the messenger.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Self delete, safari is behaving weird

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Never Forget

this is what every jewish kid learns early on...

It implies never to let it happen again.

As a child of a holocaust survivor the comparison is not diminishing the experience either.

I say that with confidence

But those who protest the loudest will be shocked when they wake up one day and it is fait acompli.

Germans also thought they were free... and that is a must read book

[puebloknot]

186. My best friend is from Tel Aviv, born there in 1940.

Her father and mother escaped to Palestine, and both lost eight brothers and sisters, and other family members, in the Holocaust in Poland.

My friend has voted for George Bush. She is worried about the economy and Israel's safety. "Israel needs all the friends it can get," she says, when I ask her why Israel is consorting with the lowest "Christian" elements of American society.

This Jewish friend thinks I am extreme in suspecting that the 9/11 official story has holes in it, and she doesn't want to hear about these fascist comparisons, either. She is too modern and educated to allow herself to wallow in this "old energy" we're discussing here.

The very best people have a hard time comprehending and/or embracing the coming tide. In my friend's case (as in the case of most people with a Holocaust background, I think), they can't let themselves contemplate that it could happen again, despite early conditioning to stay awake and aware. It's old and tiring to have to keep your guard up all the time. Just as in pre-Nazi Germany, people were eating, drinking, and giving in marriage, and it was that that they embraced as their protection against evil. How could anything so terrible happen when this evening is so lovely, this food is so good, this young couple is so much in love? God wouldn't ....

And now we have people on this very forum, this very day, referring to America as a "Christian nation." The Founders would beg to differ, but when people get together in a group, in person or on a forum, and share a comforting idea, reality takes a back seat. The "voice crying in the wilderness" is boring, and it doesn't get a lot of recommends on this forum.

But those who see must continue being boring, and getting insulted here. "It" is happening again, as we speak. How far things will be allowed to go is the big question that has me sleeping very poorly of late. I'm neither Jewish nor Christian (opted out of that when I was five), so surely there is someone out there who will find me objectionable. Bring them on!

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. I don't find you objectionable

and many Jews believe that anything that will keep Israel safe is worth doing.. never mind that the dominionist behind the chirstian movement are counting on a second holocaust to bring the rapture...

It is also very hard to wrap your head around what is going on

As to the fate of Israel, many in Israel see these dominionists as a threat... sadly they don't have power...

[puebloknot]

206. The Dominionists are a threat -- to Israel and to the U.S.

And right now in the U.S., they do have power. I understand the conundrum Israel faces.

[ananda]

11. This is the kind of fascism that is..

.. currently disguised as something else,
where it suits the corporofascists to allow
a semblance of freedom to occur in order
to be able to tout it publicly as a soporific
to the public.

IOW, they simply don't care if we speak our
minds or not because it has absolutely no
relevance or influence on policy or what's
actually happening.

Sue

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. FYI they didn't care in germany either, the most common

example that people think off

There were still demonstrations up to 1936

And the papers were still critical of the regime until '38

Then it got uggly...

Chile... that was faster, but not by much

And the way our press is cowed is following a pattern that Germany followwed, Italy followed, Chicle Followed, hell Mexico followed after 1968... and of course how can I forget lovely mother russia? After all Isvestia and Pravda have way too many paralells to Fox News (And no they were not fascist, Joe though created a totalitarian state)

But most folks think a fascist state implies secret police (check), Private Armies( Check), a cowwed media (check...), a cowed judiciary (well on our way), a cowed Legislature (Yep)... and I could go on

[cali]

55. That's simply not true.

They damn well did care. It took some time for them to totally shut own opposition, but that that was their goal, even before reaching power, is amply documented.

And no, there was very, very little critical in the papers in 1936 or 1937.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Really? They finally closed the papers in '38

but they didn't care fully close the oposoition until Krystal Nacht... and that was becuase of critical editorials in the papers.

In chile it was faster. It was over for free press and demonstrations in a matter of months.

The last was the famous pots and pans demonstration, where housewives came out with those to the streets

In reality these folks care to control the media and the message, DOD writings, but they have not closed any papers YET.

I expect Air America to soon be off the air, not becuase it does not sell, but because we are reaching that point

I also expect demonstrations to be increasigly impossible to organize

You can tell the steps to be taken if you study the history

[cali]

71. This is just embarrassing. You actually believe that Germany

had anything remotely resembling a free press under the Reich?

From Max Amann's speech at Nurenberg in 1936:

<snip>
I am happy to say that in my areas of endeavor in the party and state, a few National Socialist principles have given me the sure foundation for the many difficult decisions I have made. I am also convinced that the German people and the world public, insofar as it is ready to evaluate the situation objectively, will agree that developments in the German press give daily proof of the correctness and value of our National Socialist principles.

A look back before our seizure of power reminds us how numerous the problems of the press once were. Our few newspapers with their limited circulations fought heroically in the front lines to gain power. They stood against several thousands newspapers that represented other ideas and interests. There were many differences between the leading newspapers back then, but there was one thing they all lacked when compared to the National Socialist press: they had lost their connection to the people. They were responsible not to the people, but to some other group, be it parties, churches, economic interests or corporations, or they looked to their own good without considering the general good of the people. Such a press promoted class struggle, the confusion of social standing, religious incitement or moral decay. They did not promote the good of the individual and the strengthening of the community, rather collapse and decay. These newspapers that appealed to people's lowest instincts had lost their national and moral sense of responsibility, and had little influence.

Such a press could not be tolerated by National Socialism, whose task is the mobilization of all good and healthy strengths of the individual and the community, encouraging their expression and development. The German people is being rescued from a fragmentation of parties, classes, interests and special interests to enable them it to find its own nature and its own strengths once more. This requires that the whole of the German press serve German tasks. Our party's press is always a model, for it developed only to serve the idea and thereby the people. The exhausting everyday work aims at reaching that end.

That makes clear the goal of the National Socialism in the area of the press. All that is necessary is to follow a very few National Socialist principles.

<snip>
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/pt36aman.htm

Your claims would go a lot further if you studied any history about the realities of the period you're referencing.

Gadzooks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. It wasn't free, but wasn't fully closed

from primary sources, until '38... until Kristalnacht

Theirs was as free as ours is right now.

Ask Greg Palast just how far he can go in publishing his exposes in the NYT... or the WAPO

That is how free theirs and ours is. He simply can't... period.

And if you don't get it that totalitarian societies don't close down overnight, it is not my fault

Of course there are exceptions to that rule, and Chile comes to mind... as it was closed down under a year.

But Germany.... it took eight years of slowly changing the normal and making it a new normal.

[cali]

103. I just refuted your claims conclusively with

a primary source- and I've got TONS more.

It's simply bullshit of the worst fucking kind to claim that the German press of 1935 or 1936 is no different than the U.S. press today.

I hate lies like that. They don't help anything.

Greg Palast gets published in many outlets. He publishes books. And guess the what, not only is he paid well, he isn't persecuted or thrown into a camp. I suggest you read a book called "Diary of a Man in Despair".

Palast can't get published in the NYT or WaPo? Well, boofuckinghoo.
That's not even remotely equivalent to what happened in the mid thirties in Germany.

Actually some totalitarian societies DO shut down very, very swiftly. Nazi Germany is a good example; it took about 2 years. As is Chile. There are others.

I'm not disagreeing with creeping corporatism and authoritarianism and usurpation of the law.

I'm disagreeing with your exceeding poor revisionist history, and your inability to back down from it when it's been demonstrated that you're wrong.

It most certainly did NOT take 8 slow years for Germany to be transformed. Not even close.

You provide nothing in the way of cites or links to primary sources to back up your claims. That's just not good history.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. No you did not

look, I have talked to survivors (primary sources) and have read primary sources...

and you may want to read this

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/presspol/research_publications/papers/discussion_papers/D27.pdf

And once again if you think we are not going down that dark road and the methods are there, I cannot explain this to you

[Common Sense Party]

124. When Air America goes off the air it will be because of low ratings

and lousy business management.

Until then, they are free to say WHATEVER they want about the BFEE.

The bumbling pseudofascists aren't going to waste their time attacking something that is dying on its own.

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. Problem is this is not low ratings

they have the ratings, they also have lousy managers, but they have the ratings

[Common Sense Party]

141. They average about a 1.2 share in most markets.

Some a bit higher. Some a bit lower.

They don't have the ratings.

[defendandprotect]

85. The myth of a free press died with the assassination of JFK ---

everything changed after that ---

[Individualist]

63. "...absolutely no relevance or influence on policy or what's actually happening."

That's what frightens me most, and I can't understand why some are still blind to the fact. Whenever someone says to write (whomever) to voice opposition, I have to restrain myself from screaming DON'T YOU GET IT? THEY DON'T LISTEN TO US!

[defendandprotect]

89. I think we have to begin to understand that too often here we are talking to people....

who will never "get it" . . .
and I think at some point we have to stop wasting our time in that way.

When people want to know something, they pursue the information -- they go get the information.

And, for those who don't get the corporate-fascist concept -- which was visible more than two decades ago -- and, I suppose, for those who still don't get Global Warming . . . I'd suggest that you don't waste your time with it.

[AntiFascist]

79. I would also recommend reading Michael Ledeen....

who has worked as a neocon foreign policy advisor to the current administration:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4275.htm

In his book, Universal Fascism, published in 1972, Ledeen makes it even clearer what his basic beliefs are. That work starts with the assertion that it is a mistake to explain the support of fascism by millions of Europeans "solely because they had been hypnotized by the rhetoric of gifted orators and manipulated by skilful propagandists."... "It seems more plausible," Ledeen argued, "to attempt to explain their enthusiasm by treating them as believers in the rightness of the fascist cause, which had a coherent ideological appeal to a great many people." For Ledeen, as for the lifelong fascist theoretician and practitioner, Giuseppe Bottai, that appeal lay in the fact that fascism was "the Revolution of the 20th century." Ledeen supports de Felice’s distinction between "fascism-movement" and "fascism-regime." Mussolini’s regime, he says, was "authoritarian and reactionary"; by contrast, within "fascism-movement," there were many who were animated by "a desire to renew." These people wanted "something more revolutionary: the old ruling class had to be swept away so that newer, more dynamic elements—capable of effecting fundamental changes—could come to power." (Source: John Laughland, lecturer and a trustee of the British Helsinki Human Rights Group; June 30, 2003, The American Conservative Flirting with Fascism: Neocon theorist Michael Ledeen draws more from Italian fascism than from the American Right.)

What we may be experiencing is a "fascist movement" without the overt reactionary authoritarianism. Neo-liberals on the left may be an extremely important part of this.

[Lars39]

169. "Friendly Fascism"

Good summary.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. then you are an uninformed person

and your opinions should be considered in that light.

[Truthiness Inspector]

16. LOL

That is funny! I'm sure we'll wind up in a back and forth, but for now, this makes me laugh in a sad way because you either know something I don't or you have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about.

[puebloknot]

51. I think that all the other posters in this thread know something you don't...

...and that you could do well to inspect the truth of what they are saying to you, rather than behaving rudely -- to no good end.

Smart guys like you learned humility in prison after their experiment in Nazism: Albert Speer's 20 years in Spandau Prison comes to mind.

There are none so blind as those who will not see! You don't have to take any of this at face value. Read about it for yourself!

[defendandprotect]

94. Exactly!

And we should recognize a lost cause and not waste our time with it ---
People who want to know something make legitimate efforts to find information and try to find ways to deal with it.

[Chemical Bill]

223. >Without fear of reprisal.

>You are here right now speaking your mind. Without fear of reprisal.

You are making an assumption that I am unwilling to make, that there is no reason to fear reprisals for posting here. I have been cyber stalked by a right-wingnut at another website, who refered to my posts here. I assure you that there are people taking down whatever information they can about the posters here who speak out. Have you ever googled your screen name, or some of the names of the radicals here?

There are also people who post here about the vandalism they have been subjected to. For their bumper stickers.

I also know a little bit about the illegal wiretapping going on. I'm just some guy, I have no special leftist leadership credentials, but I've met at least two people who have been wiretapped under the program. The surveillance of these people came to light, how much more is unknown?

Does fear of political leaders being anthraxed (remember, just Democrats) or shot like the Kennedys count?

What evidence would you need to see before you see this as fascism? Just askin'.

Bill

[INDIA]

251. "but I've met at least two people who have been wiretapped under the program."

Correction: You met two people who CLAIM that they were wiretapped. There are plenty of crazies out there who believe the government is using spy sattelites to read their thoughts and that any minute black helicopters will come to take them away. Doesn't make it so.

As far as I know, the only way that somebody would KNOW for a fact that they were wiretapped is if they were brought up on terrorism charges and the information taken from the wiretaps was presented as evidence at trial. Or if they could produce some sort of warrant, which as we all know, * thinks isn't necessary anymore.

Could you elaborate on who these people were, how they knew they were wiretapped, why they were wiretapped, what their proof is that they were wiretapped? Sorry if I'm skeptical, but skepticism is a good thing, yes? Hearing clicking noises on your phone and seeing a black van parked across the street don't count.

The whole "I have a friend who did such and such" doesn't really carry much weight.

[Chemical Bill]

252. It was in the local (and national) news.

One was from AFSC, one from ANSWER.

http://www.afsc.org/news/2006/SecretSurveillanceFiles.htm

Sorry I can't find the complete list of groups targeted, but it was published. The article does list states where local groups were wiretapped, including my state (RI). I'll keep looking.

Bill

[smoogatz]

250. I fear reprisal.

Not now. Not tomorrow. But when/if the Bush/Cheney dictatorship decide they will not go quietly off to Paraguay in 2009, they're going to come looking for people like me. And you. What we have now is Fascism Lite, but all of the switches and levers are ready to go if and when they decide to crank on the real thing. And when they do, who's going to stop them? Congress? The Supreme freaking Court?

[Chemical Bill]

253. Speaking of fear of reprisal...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2022476

[LakeSamish706]

8. You can call it whatever you like... I think that it's time some woke up and..

smelled... (I was going to say smelled the roses) but I will stick with coffee... The current situation is dire to say the least.... Hell, look at the US $$$$ and then tell me there is hope! Look at the real estate market and tell me there is hope! Look at the occupants of the White House and tell me there is hope! Look at the world perspective on what the US looks like to them and tell me there is hope!

Sorry, this country is screwed big time... And I am sorrier to say that the cause lies at the feet of those that slept for the past 6-7 years instead of doing something to stop it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Been fighting this since 2002

so when my nephews ask me what did I do? I can proudly tell them what I did.

but first we need to emerge from this on the other side

[LakeSamish706]

17. I have been doing my best to enlighten people to what is/has been going...

on... We are getting to the level of no return and somehow we must wake the American people up.... My question really is how is it possible that a group of people (maybe 2 dozen or so) hold 300 million people hostage like Hitler was able to do? This to me is absolute BS in this day and age... But I must admit as I have done in other posts, I have a wife and dear friends that fit into the profile of (Republicans... or serious right wing nut jobs - you choose) and can't seem to get their attention....

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. We might be on the cusp of a civl war

but that is antoher matter for another day

[defendandprotect]

265. Keep at it!!! You can't expect to convince anyone else if you can't convince them ---

it's the hardest part of trying to do this -- !!!!

[tkmorris]

18. You love it when DU looks ridiculous

Not that this post does that, but to claim that it bothers you somehow amuses me all to hell.

[Truthiness Inspector]

24. I do?

What are you talking about? But hey, life is short, if my post brought you some amusement, it's all good. LOL.

[txaslftist]

119. You should read Mayer's "They Thought They Were Free"

You can read the prologue online, and it's a very important part of the book. Like this:


But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

...

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. ...

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, ... in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end?"

Ridiculous? Sure. Alarmist? Absolutely. But better to be a foolish alarmist than a complicit sheep.

[Swamp Rat]

242. Excuse me while I grate on your nerves.

[tnlefty]

6. I rec'd this, and that's a good compilation of required reading,

perhaps Joe Conason's "It Can Happen Here" should also be considered.

For years I've felt that I'm living in a twisted combination of '1984', 'The Handmaid's Tale', and episodes of the Twilight Zone. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Yeah, add Joe Connason to it

The list is getting long, just as to a point it did in the 1930s

Hell, I have ONE OF THOSE books on my shelf right now. read it the other day... and boy the parallels were down right scary

[Warren Stupidity]

12. "reading" not "readying"

although by getting through Nadine's reading list you will be readying yourself for dealing with what is going on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Sorry ain't on the mac

and got lazy on my grammar, will go edit now

;-)

[Initech]

22. Bush is the epitome of a totalitarian dictator.

Can you imagine what would have happened had Stalin had access to things like the CIA and the Patriot Act?

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. He did in a manner of speaking

and that is why over seventy million people (conservative numbers by the way) died in Gulags

And trust me, you didn't want to cross the NKVD

And in a sense of irony, the central Lubianka jail in Moscow is across the bigest toy store in town, has been for decades

[tnlefty]

25. If I remember correctly, the History Channel ran documentaries

about Hitler and Stalin prior to the '04 elections and at the time my kids were 14, 11 and 9. They were freaking out and stated that Bush** was a compilation of the 2...shades of the 2 in 1.

My mother, (Bush** voter), just happened to call the next day and she stated that she had watched it and when I relayed what her grandsons had stated, she almost choked. Slowly she's come to the realization that the SOB needs to be impeached and well, I won't mention what else, as I'm sure every keystroke is logged!

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Oh I am sure every keystroke is logged

hello echelon... agent mike...

But what choices do we have? We can be cowed and watch every freaking word we say (a mark of a totalitarian state... and we might be close)

Or we can choose to live free

Oh and good for your kids... they noticed, even your mother is waking up

[Truthiness Inspector]

27. Just as I suspected

Live free, for God's sake. Nobody is watching what you say. SHIT, you are speaking your mind, have you been rounded up? Obviously not.

Preach it, say it, sing it!

In other words, your free speech is safe. I'm sure you will be posting again tomorrow and years from now as if this ridiculous "fascism" thread never even happened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Goggle echelon

then come back to me

Again read those books I recommended to you

Or are you, like your hero Stephen Colbert, allergic to readying?

By the way Echelon is real... and like many other NSA equipment, it has been turned on the Continental US.

By the way, you are aware of warrant less wiretapping, aren't you?

My god for somebody who claims to have lived in a fascist state, I am amazed that you cannot recognize what is going on

Damn it, I grew up in one... and we KNEW wiretapping was occuring... that does not mean the big bad buys of the guv'ment came and picked us up... we were not important enough to make an example off.

[Truthiness Inspector]

29. Right

And that's why you're posting your fears here. I'm amazed at you, just as you are at me.

You are here spouting off, no? You know you are safe here. There is no part of you that worries about repurcussions for your postings here, but the drama factor is good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. You know, I've been nice to you

but you are ignorant of the history of the rise of totalitarian states

All states, to some degree or antoher, have allowed "free speech."

Yes, even Chile, and Germany, and Russia

When they clamp down they clamp down...

But all of them have had demonstrations, free speech, and even a glimmer of a free press at some stage of the process

Now you have not been able to tell me that there are no warrantless wire tapings, becasue there are

You might deny that Habeas Corpus was suspended, but alas, it was... in the military commisions act

You may even feel that I'm paranoid, that is your prerrogative

My choice, back in 2002 was to live free, and not let them scare me... and boy there was plenty to be scared after readying the full text of the ena... err Patriot Act, and patriot act II, (which has been implemented in bits and pieces)

You have not read the basic books of the founders... let alone more modern tellings and retellings of the UNIVERSAL fight for freedom

Your experience comes from late state totalitarian societies

Go get educated, that is all I ask. If you don't want to, fine... at least Stephen Colbert reads... even if his TEEVEE personna does not

[Truthiness Inspector]

31. For starters

Please show me where Americans are wiretapped?

[nadinbrzezinski]

Google is your friend

Saturday, December 17, 2005; Posted: 8:07 p.m. EST (01:07 GMT)

President Bush arrives for his radio address in the Roosevelt Room at the White House on Saturday.
Image:

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Manage Alerts | What Is This? WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In acknowledging the message was true, President Bush took aim at the messenger Saturday, saying that a newspaper jeopardized national security by revealing that he authorized wiretaps on U.S. citizens after September 11.

After The New York Times reported, and CNN confirmed, a claim that Bush gave the National Security Agency license to eavesdrop on Americans communicating with people overseas, the president said that his actions were permissible, but that leaking the revelation to the media was illegal.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/17/bush.nsa

Bush's illegal spying
The president defied a major Supreme Court ruling to authorize hundreds of wiretaps inside the U.S.

By David Cole

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Dec 20, 2005 | With the revelation of domestic spying by the National Security Agency, the message transmitted by the Bush White House is crystal clear: When the president decides existing law is insufficient to protect Americans, he'll move ahead on his own and do whatever he deems necessary in the war on terror.

Bush is defiantly battling critics, insisting that his decision to conduct warrantless wiretaps on hundreds of people inside the United States, including American citizens, was necessary and fully consistent with the Constitution and federal law. Neither claim stands up to scrutiny. The president acted unnecessarily and, more significantly, in direct violation of a criminal law.

http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2005/12/20/spying/index.html

NSA Spying on Americans Is Illegal (12/29/2005)


Advertisement in The New York Times (12/29/2005)

NEWS
ACLU Slams DOJ Investigation of NSA Whistleblower (12/30/2005)

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What if it emerged that the President of the United States was flagrantly violating the Constitution and a law passed by the Congress to protect Americans against abuses by a super-secret spy agency? What if, instead of apologizing, he said, in essence, "I have the power to do that, because I say I can." That frightening scenario is exactly what we are now witnessing in the case of the warrantless NSA spying ordered by President Bush that was reported December 16, 2005 by the New York Times.

According to the Times, Bush signed a presidential order in 2002 allowing the National Security Agency to monitor without a warrant the international (and sometimes domestic) telephone calls and e-mail messages of hundreds or thousands of citizens and legal residents inside the United States. The program eventually came to include some purely internal controls - but no requirement that warrants be obtained from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court as the 4th Amendment to the Constitution and the foreign intelligence surveillance laws require.

In other words, no independent review or judicial oversight.

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/23279res20051229.html

How many more links do you need?

[HCE SuiGeneris]

44. crickets are loud all of a sudden

:evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Me was gonna point that out

He has been posting that BS for a while....

There are days that I wonder about that willful ignorance some folks have

:-)

[monktonman]

72. Man, I love a good smack down

***crickets*****

[defendandprotect]

112. Please show us the list of those being wiretapped . . . !!!!

Perhaps you're not aware of Nixon's wiretapping of citizens --
or this administration's wiretapping of citizens involved in peaceful anti-war organizations?

Wake up -- !!!

[puebloknot]

52. Dissenters R Us! Sorry, couldn't resist! :)

[Swamp Rat]

243. or Hitler

see post #242

[Colorado Progressive]

32. Thanks for posting. I am always amazed at Americans who talk about Hitler

as some hideous creature from another planet. They don't realize whats going on in front of their faces. They dont even care about the torture, the spying, the lying, the GOD IS MONEY mentality while they thump a bible in your face and tell kids to go to hell. Terrifying. Definitely the dipshits at the low end of the intelligence bell curve, but they still get to vote.

[illinoisprogressive]

34. hey colorado, I just realized your screen name. great minds...

[Colorado Progressive]

39. ....

:hi:

Yes! And most importantly great minds can think, period!

[Colorado Progressive]

42. We are both painters too! Yay us! nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Well as a historian I will blame the community for that one

we have made Hitler unique. In reality he is not...

And yes, as a child of the holocaust I am saying this

[Colorado Progressive]

40. Post more here, if you were a child of that! You need to be spelling this crap out for

people. I am serious! I am glad you are here and posting and informing, and I would love to hear more from someone who lived through that. People in this country have become so removed (by time, geographical distance, and the MSM) from fascism and what it really is that they dont see it. They hail Bush while saying Hitler was evil. Its a joke. I told my mom the other day "You know, I think sometimes that these people would support Bush even if he was running concentration camps and we knew about it" and then I realized Guantanamo was not much different, was it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. No, guantamo has an equivalent in the germany of the 1930s

and I didn't live through that and my dad does not speak about it

So I went to school to learn as much as I could

Guantamo shares many elemetns with Dachau. It also shares elements with some of the Gulags... albeit not most

The problem is that each place where fascism rises, the steps are the same, but the method to the madness is different

Here they are:

1.- Invoke and internal and external enemy... check

For those who don't know, internal liberals (they tried with arabs)
External, islamo fascims

2.- Create a Gulag, a prison system outside the law

Guantamo and the dark prison sites

3.- Develop a thug caste

Many of the followers are part of this caste, and are the bullies that we face all the time.

4.- Set up an internal surveillance system

Need I say more?

5.- Harrass citizens groups

The Moore F 911 movie had examples, but it is happening

6.- Random detentions

What happened at the Phoenix airport the other day might be one of them, and TSA is doing it regularly

7.- Target key individuals

Dan Rather...

Donahue, and those are just the begining of this

8.- Control the press,

I don't think I have to go there... we see it all the time

9.- Disent equals treason

The language is here... been used in speeches

10.- Suspend the rule of law

We are well on our way.

Now I will add to this one or two of my own

11.- Create an internal army loyal to you, and not the state

Blackwater

12.- Close travel and communications forcing annomie

Passpots and border controls.

By the way for her points and far more expanded here is an invaluable link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

[Colorado Progressive]

45. Well you have inspired me to buy Naomi Wolf's book, or see if the library

has it. Where I live its probably "banned" or in their words "not in demand".

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. I'm temped to buy some copies and send them to

our esteemed Democratic leadership

:-)

And I say that resisting the impulse to go here

:sarcasm:

But there are days they remind me a tad too much of the Liberal Democrats and the Social Democrats of the time

[Hekate]

237. Ask for it at the library; if not there, ask for them to get it for you.Librarians are...

...very much in favor of freedom of the press, and freedom of access to information generally.

Hekate

[cali]

56. Oh, please.

Name the elements which Dachau and Gitmo share. You often start reasonably and veer into the dubious- to put it kindly.

Yes, Dachau, which was started in 1933 housed political prisoners as well as Jews, and the death toll for the first 7 years was "only" something like 4,000. Guantanamo has been in existence now for what? 6 years? And has it's population soared in those years? No. It's diminished. Don't get me wrong, I detest Guantanamo but it's hardly comparable to Dachau on any discernible level. The black sites are actually far more troubling to me.

As for your list, it's flaws are many and characterized well, I think, by examples like Moore's F9/11 and the Phoenix airport incident. As for the dissent = treason example, you do realize that that language has been around for decades, right?

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. Here you go

both share a prison population whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They both share the ilusion of law

They both share visits by the International red cross

They both share the outrage of human rights lawyers regarding the prisoners and prisoner status

They both share quasi legal actions (Military commisions existed there as well)

If you look under the surface, there are common elements

Oh and both have released prisoners who oops, didn't belong there.

Try to look under the surface.

Hell Gantamo shares elements wih Chilean prisons as well.

There are differences of course, but the form that fascism takes in every country where it takes root, is not the same. Why we have so far only attempts at a death chamber at Guantamo...

Also this is not a place where Political prisoners have been taken,

But it is part of the diminishing of the rule of law and extralegal means.

[cali]

70. Not just flawed, but really, really flawed.

To deconstruct a few of your "comparisons":

So what that the International Red Cross visited Dachau and visits Guantanamo? Relevance? To what? How?

Saying that they both share the illusion of law is a vague claim that needs to be fleshed out. It's pretty meaningless as simply a broad claim. And Guantanamo and the laws that surround it, are constantly being challenged in federal judiciary and vigorously opposed through public outcry. Think there were a lot of letters to the editor about Dachau? Think again. Think the court system in '39 in Germany allowed for challenges to inmates? No. So the illusion in one case was actually quite different from the illusion in another.

They both share quasi legal actions. True enough, but the results count in my book. Starving prisoners in Gitmo? Not that I know of. Disease descimating the population? No. Summary executions at the whim of a guard? No.

Shared outrage by human rights lawyers and advocates? Yes. See above re illusion of law, for more.

Releasing prisoners? Again, that is relevant just how?

You're the one that needs to look beneath the surface. It's a strikingly poor comparison.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. You are asking for comparisons

and you think this is flawed when you are given them

Look, I am a child of a holocaust survivor.

I am also a student of history

I was a Red Cross Worker and recognize this for what it is. Especially when the Red Cross released their reports on guantamo. You know how common that is? Like never done before?

And I feel that you are only looking at the surface... at the descriptive surface

Yes the comparisons are valid insofar as METHOD is concerned

And yes, both created a new normal... a goal of any totalitarian state.

And at this point we can choose to agree to disagree, by the way.

I see the siren call of what is going on here and the paralels, you don't

[cali]

122. I see the real parallels. You're just making up slightly

insane stuff to squash into your world view. And no, you aren't using any valid historical methods. Again, comparing Dachau to Gitmo on the basis of the fact that both were visited by International Red Cross members, is simply inane and invalid. Btw, provide some evidence that the Red Cross did visit Dachau, cuz that isn't my recollection. As i recall the only camp they visited was Thierenstadt. I could be wrong on that, but you sure haven't provided anything but your say so- not that it's germane in any way.

As for your link, on first glance, it appears not to have anything to do with what we're arguing over. It certainly does NOT prove your grossly erroneous assertion that the state of our media today is equivalent to the state of Germnan media circa 1936. It's about how the press covered the Holocaust at the time it was happening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Ok, those who choose to be blind

the echoes are there.

If you refuse to see them... ain't my fault.

I am done Cali... have a good day

And by the way, your readying of how the press covered the holocaust while it was happening IS YOUR INTERPRETATIon, perhaps you have a problem in wrapping your head around the METHOD on closing societies down. It has not followed the exact same evetns, country by country. They never do... why they are hard to spot in the begining

I have been speaking of the Germany at worst case 1938

have also spoken of Chile

Mexico in some cases (Yes I know you will scream it never had facist overtones... oh never mind)

This is what is so hard, you CHOSE to read what you wanted.

I have not talked about the holocast post 1938... that was a whole different animal

And please do tell me that we have an open and free press that is wholy critical of goverment policies and prints accurate headlines... because if that is what you are saying, why we really cannot talk to each other becuase we fundamentally disagree as to where we are in the rise of a totalitarian state.

[cali]

152. Fine. You're done. I'm responding so others can see.

You know damn well, it has zip, zilch, nada to do with my "being blind". I've made my concerns quite clear. It has EVERYTHING to do with not distorting history and not drawing deeply flawed analogies, that highlight only similarities and glaringly omit differences.

And though I don't think that we have an entirely free and open press, we certainly have quite a bit of it- particularly if you include, which one should, the internet. Let's list some others: Harpers, The Nation, Mother Jones, Counterpunch, and hundreds more.

And we disagree because you repeatedly post false and distorted representations of history with nothing to back it up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. Like Shoa institute paper...

ok

and you will NOT go into my ignore list.

Sorry... I will not let you try to delude people as to how the METHOD to close societies down work

[cali]

168. The Shoah institute paper

backs up your claims how? C'mon, that should be easy.

And I will not allow you to post distortions and falsehoods without refuting them. You want to talk about the methods used to close down societies, that's good. Your reading list was good. Some of the stuff you posted? Very bad. Lousy history. Terrible historical analogies, and a fair amount of outright bullshit, like the U.S. press today being the equivalent to Germany circa 1936. Claiming that Germany had a viable free press at that time is simply a ridiculous lie, and you provided nothing to back it up. I provided the words of the man who shut the press down and co-opted it. Too bad you can't tell the difference between backing up a historical claim and just asserting nonsense.

[gollygee]

156. They have one element in common

they both operate outside the rule of law. Rights that exist in other prisons do not exist there. That is the element of fascism that is evident in both.

Otherwise they are very different. But that one thing they have in common is scary in and of itself, and is significant.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. Thank you

that is the method analysis people should be doing now

[illinoisprogressive]

33. I have thought about The Rise and Fall many times over these years.

I read it cover to cover about 20 years ago. fascinating and a must read. Since 2000, I have thought of that book many many times and have been thinking of rereading it several times. Cannot bear it yet though

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. There were some specialized books I did not add in this list

but I had to read them during my masters, and the one about the Police Units is scary as hell

But I should add to this list the Banality of evil

[Colorado Progressive]

41. My husband read that entire book. He is an expert on history and war, and a liberal.

It is amusing and sad to hear him predict what will happen next in the US, why Bush did or said X, Y, or Z. I cant get through non-fiction that long, but maybe some day I will read it.

Oh yeah, hubby also keeps a copy of the US Constitution in his glove box for emergencies. :D

[immoderate]

59. "Rise and Fall..." reads like a novel.

I'm being only slightly hyperbolic when I say you can't understand what's happening here if you don't read it. The parallels are -- well...:scared:

And it's a good time to review the "fourteen points" of fascism:
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

And a video based on that:
http://mwcnews.net/media/flash/Fascism.html

One of my standard questions to wing nuts is, can you find a definition of fasism that doesn't describe George Bush? Well, can you?

--IMM

[defendandprotect]

266. I was only 16 when I read the book and it profoundly impacted my thinking ---

and, sadly, since then I've seen other new books with the "horrors" by the Nazis and I don't think they were more than but mentioned in the R&F....in other words, as difficult as the book was, I think we were still being spared in some ways.

I remember not understanding why the world hadn't stopped to go find everyone of the people involved.
I was encouraged to stop trying to figure out how Hitler had come to this . . . they said, "If you could understand Hitler, you'd be crazy." And, "You can't make sense out of nonsense."

Well, many, many years later I did find some answers to Hitler which helps one understand how this happened in some part.

As for capturing all the people responsible .... in no way did that happen.
Very few of them were hunted down.

There's a terrific book I'd also recommend called "The Secret War Against the Jews" . . . which is a misnomer because the book deals with so much more. It went into paperback in 2000.
It's by John Loftus and Mark Aarons --
I recall reading in one section that Nelson Rockefeller was involved in the partition of Palestine into a Jewish/Arab state -- and I was just rereading parts of it -- page 169 ....

Evidently, the "romantic myth" of the UN vote is untrue in major ways --
without going into full detail -- Nelson Rockefeller who had been basically guilty of treason for "trading with the enemy" was under investigation during the FDR administration. After FDR died, the investigations were swept under the table; by 1947, the Rockefeller PR machine had things under control."

"Then the Jews arrived with their dossier: They had his Swiss bank records with the Nazis, his signature on correspondence setting up the German cartel in South America, transcripts of his conversations with Nazi agents during the war, and, finally, evidence of his complicity in helping Allen Dulles smuggle Nazi war criminals and money from the Vatican to Argentina."

Reuven Shiloah, Ben-Gurion's intelligence chief had masterminded the operation.

An account of what happened when they confronted Nelson Rockefeller . . .

"Rockefeller skimmed thru the dossier and cooly began to bargain in return for the votes of the Latin American bloc ." Rockefeller wanted guarantees that the Jews would keep their mouths shut about theflow of Nazi money and fugitives to South America. There would be no Zionist Nazi-hunting unit, no testimony at Nuremberg abou tthe bankers or anyone else, not a single leak to the press about where the Nazis were living in South America or which Nazis were working for Dulles. The subject of Nazis was closed. Period. Forever."

"The choice was simple, Rockefeller explained. 'You can have vengenance or you can have a country, but you cannot have both.' His choice of the word 'vengenance,' not justice, left the Jews in no doubt where he stood. But the General Assembly would vote in only a few days. It was the last best chance the Jews would ever have. If the opportunity slipped by they would never get another."

"According to the Israeli information, whose account was corroborated by several other soures in the intelligence community whome we interviewed subsequently, Ben-Gurion's representative was heartsick.
Counter-blackmail had not been in the game plan. He made a telphone call to try to obtain guidance.
It took several hours before the reply came back. "Yes." There really was no choice but to give Rockefeller whatever he wanted. On behalf of the still-unborn state of Israel, the promise was formally given to let the Nazis go free. The men who murdered the Jews of Europe were effectively given amnesty, except for the unlucky few who had already been punished."

"But the promise was conditional on Rockefeller delivering the votes. "Don't worry," he assured
the them, "every country in Latin America will either vote in favor of Israel or abstain."
Rockefeller delivered -- the resultswere immediate and dramatic."

If you live long enough, you may find the answers!!!

And, presumably, that's why there was no great hunting down of Nazi war criminals!

[Mike03]

36. May I gently add

"Hitler's Willing Executioners" by Daniel Goldhagen? I think it aptly describes how group paranoia can be manipulated into state policy.

EDIT:

Kick and Rec, by the way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. My god I was thinking about that one too

and of course Arendt's the banality of evil

[puebloknot]

49. And, as I mentioned in another of your threads...

...Defying Hitler, by Sebastian Haffner.

[Kurovski]

50. K&R.

Some good discussions to be found on the thread as well.

[lostnfound]

53. Bookmarking, thank you,as always. nt

[cali]

54. I've read all but one

and though I think it's fair to say we live in a protofascist state, I don't believe that we can't reverse a great deal of the damage. Furthermore, I'd argue that the longing for the good old days of American freedom, is largely the longing for a mythical America.

[lonestarnot]

57. Bookmarking for a less depressing time.

[Octafish]

58. ''Friendly Fascism'' by Bertram Gross

Back in 1980, the good professor saw how these things work...

Friendly Fascism - The New Face of Power in America

PS: Can't believe how many people refuse to open their eyes.

[Virginia Dare]

60. A ruling government rests on the consent...

however obtained, from the governed.

[seemslikeadream]

61. I'm too scared to close mine

http://www.bushflash.com/year.html

Enveloped in a sentiment,
A sound that rushes over me.
Engage an impulse to pretend
I have a faith as pure.
Not forgetting what it means to dream.
Indulging everything.
Entertaining thoughts that I've the strength
Of those I yearn to be.
Cheers and tribute greet the saviours.
Reckless thoughts survive.
Anachronistic and impulsive.

And what will happen?
Will I dream?
I am too scared to close my eyes.
For a second please hold me.
None can change in me these things that I believe.
But I don't know what happens now.
I am too scared to close my eyes.

Legion
Vnv Nation

[Phillycat]

126. Gettin' less friendly by the second.

[Hydra]

62. Too bad so many don't want to get it

Btw, how's your day going, nadinbrzezinski? :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Oh fine... cup of coffee, full tummy, and about reaady to get to work

life's good...

Even if at times I wonder about my fellow Americans

:-)

History ain't their strong point...

[Hydra]

68. every illusion is a comfort

I don't like when illusion lets you down, though. The truth can be painful, but it never tells you things aren't what they are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Well I write fiction, sci fi and trust me... what is going on right now

is rich fodder.

Hell, the game fiction... the Confederation has nothing in common wiht the fascist state of the 1930s, while the Empire has absolutely nothing to do with our current government and way of doing things... including our form of fascism.

Really...

Of course one of my Alien factions is based on the Condotieri wiht heavy elements of ... Blackwater.

Life is such a grand tapestry for the fiction writer...

The sad part is that a movie written using this plot would never be sold

[mmonk]

64. Good list to examine.

[mmonk]

73. May I add this to your list?

Mussolini's Italy: Twenty Years of the Fascist Era, New York, McMillan Co., 1964, Trans. Charles Lam Markmann.

[warren pease]

74. Parallels...

We all know about the Reichstag Fire, how it was started by a few of Hitler's thugs and blamed on a dull-witted Dutch Jewish communist who happened to be sleeping one off inside the building. He and about 4,000 German communists were arrested over the next couple of days and became that 1933's version of Al Qaeda, the designated patsies who must be eliminated because their very existence threatens the lives of the citizenry.

Now that seems familiar.

The day after the fire, Hitler pushed through the Reichstag Fire Decree, which stated: "Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed."

Hmmm. That rings a bell.

Shortly thereafter, three more of Hitler's decrees were signed by an increasingly irrelevant and befuddled President Hindenburg. The first offered full pardons to all Nazis currently in prison. The second decree allowed for the arrest of anyone suspected of maliciously criticizing the government and the Nazi party. And the third allowed for the establishment of special courts to try political offenders. These courts were conducted in the military style of a court-martial without a jury and usually with no counsel for the defense.

Wow! Military tribunals? Outlawing criticism of the government? Who would have thought?

The following month, The Reichstag approved the Enabling Act, officially known as "the Law for Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich." It handed over the constitutional functions of the Reichstag to Hitler, including the power to make laws, control the budget and approve treaties with foreign governments. The dictatorship was now codified in and protected by the law of the land.

Gee... that's exactly the relationship between BushCo and congress.


Honestly, doesn't any of this sound familiar? Patriot Act(s), Military Commissions Act, NSPD 51/HSPD-20, Executive Order re asset seizure for "…undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to the Iraqi people." Which is to say, outlawing the anti-war movement.

I swear to christ, if people can't see 1930s Germany mirrored in 2000s America, they're either willfully blind or amazingly obtuse. We're not quite there yet, as evinced by the fact that I can sit here typing this without an immediate visit from the men in black, but the point is that all the systems necessary to shift the US from a Constitutional republic to a national security state are in place. They just haven't been completely activated yet.

If we had a true opposition party, maybe they never would be. Given today's sorry pack of spineless enablers, though, it's probably just a matter of time.

BushCo can use another false flag terrorist attack to install a theocratic dictatorship immediately, or they can just continue to do as they have been for the past six years: subject to citizenry to the death of a thousand cuts as the daily outrages combine to obliterate whatever freedoms hadn't already been stolen through corporate control of our lives.

You didn't really think this insane pack of power-mad, money grubbing swine worked this hard for all these years to simply put in their eight years, pack up and go home, did you? I assume Hillary could carry the torch rather well in their absence, but I don't think they like uncertainty. Too many variables if your hands aren't directly on the levers of power.

If this country survives BushCo, it will be as a tragicomic version of the land of the free. There's just too much power concentrated in the executive branch now, and I don't see a whole lot of objection to it coming from congress. Far easier to roll over, take the campaign money, make placating noises for the consumption of the unruly mob, and then slither back to DC and continue the important business of giving away the rights of their constituents.

Sick times, eh?


wp

[cali]

88. Look, I'm perfectly able to see the similarities

but a lot of folk don't seem able to see the rather stark differences that exist too.

You wrote:

The following month, The Reichstag approved the Enabling Act, officially known as "the Law for Removing the Distress of the People and the Reich." It handed over the constitutional functions of the Reichstag to Hitler, including the power to make laws, control the budget and approve treaties with foreign governments. The dictatorship was now codified in and protected by the law of the land.

Gee... that's exactly the relationship between BushCo and congress.

No. bzzt. that's not exactly the relationship between bushco and the Congress. Not just wrong, but egregiously so.

And bushco has been in power for almost 7 years. Hitler accomplished fascism within 3. By 1940, he'd started a war, and killed thousands of the disabled and others. Concentration camps were well under way. There was no freedom of press or anything else.

[warren pease]

179. About those similarities...

You write: "No. bzzt. that's not exactly the relationship between bushco and the Congress. Not just wrong, but egregiously so."

The power to make laws: Theoretically in the hands of congress, actually in BushCo's slimy hands via the veto and signing statements, as well as the various presidential directives and executive orders, which is essentially law by fiat and neither requires or needs congressional approval. And it seems that whenever the white house floats another malevolent notion, congress is always there to join the party.

And the kicker: even if a bill is blatantly unconstitutional (which most of BushCo's repressive legislation certainly is) there's the DoJ fighting against the people to implement it and, if things really get nasty, an entire federal judiciary apparatus appointed solely to find legal precedents to justify the outrage du jour. Game, set and match.

The power to control the budget: Theoretically in congress' hands, except that they roll over and assume the subdominant position every time BushCo needs a few extra hundred billion dollars to wipe out another indigenous population. The bastard even tapped into his inner fiscal conservative just long enough to veto health care for kids, and so far, nobody's come to the rescue.

The power to approve treaties with foreign governments: Theoretically in congress' hands, but there's that diabolical initiative to join Canada, the US and Mexico into one gigantic, free-trade, low-wage Maquiladora gulag. Last I heard, congress wasn't particularly interested in fair trade issues, preferring to keep their campaign "donors" happy and glutted with cash. But of course it's never enough where BushCo is concerned; the swine keep bitching about fast-track powers to negotiate treaties and tariffs and, of course, congress granted those requests, too. "Fast-track" is just code for telling congress to "keepa you hands offa this bill."

As to Hitler's "fast track to fascism" vs. BushCo's long, slow crawl; all the pieces to lock down this country and declare a de facto dictatorship have been in place since May 9 of this year. Many of them were in place two weeks after 9/11 with approval of the first patriot act. The second one created a few more ways to oppress the citizenry, while the Military Commissions Act and the 2006 budget bill lowered the coffin lid. All that remained was the hammer and nails, which BushCo gleefully supplied with NSPD-51 and HSPD-20.

Hitler started a war in 1939 by invading Poland; BushCo started a war in 2001 by bombing Afghanistan and another in 2003 by invading Iraq. Compared to Hitler, these guys look like fast workers.

As to freedom of the press -- don't make me laugh. Freedom to express a contrarian point of view exists almost exclusively on the internet, and I simply can't believe it's still up and running for the peasantry to use.

From what little I know of its infrastructure, I can only suppose that choking off all but a selected bit of corporate IP traffic is harder than it sounds. Also, the hackers of the world seem to be a lot more clever than their foes in government or corporate IT departments. But congress apathy about net neutrality doesn't bode well for the future.

Anything that remains of the old republic is just window-dressing. Hell, we can't even trust the most basic democratic institution any more: the right to vote and have it counted correctly.


Or does none of this ring a bell with you?

wp

[cali]

202. Gross distortions of fact are not convincing.

and as I've written extensively in this thread what's wrong with such comparisons, I'm not going to deconstruct your hyperbole.

[nadinbrzezinski]

210. Perhaps you shoudl read the USPA

and the Enabling Act

And compare them for yourself

Oh and add to that readying the Alien and Sedition Act

Shooting the messenger is not going to work Cali.

As much as you may think it will

You simply cannot see what is going on in front of you, in-spite of your protests, truly

Books that point to the process are not sufficient

Perhaps read those things.

[cali]

213. You really are

a smug piece of work. I've got all the hundreds of pages actually downloaded. I've read it. As for your martyr complex- doesn't even begin to cut it or excuse the utter bullshit you've written here. If I were one of your history professors, I'd be deeply chagrined.

I challenged you on facts. I repudiated you on facts. I'd bet I've read at least as extensively as you. Oh, and I completely doubt that Naomi Wolf, would think that what you've written here is anything but garbled nonsense. She's quite a good thinker and writer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

215. No cali you are

you have gone out of your way to try to shoot messengers

You have a problem with the idea that what we have going on here and now is a proto-fascist state

Never forget

And fight them with your last breath

And martyr complex, perhaps you should look in the damn mirror.

You are the one who feels a need to come and shoot messengers

In fact, every time any of us posts readying lists, or to events that are pointing in that direction, the usual suspects come out.. and you know exactly who those people are...

And actually Wolf pointed out why.

It is a visceral reaction since we have been trained from early on to think that the Nazis were unique... well she also writes what I have held for years. THEY WERE NOT... and boy we had an interesting discussion during a graduate seminar over this one... it was NOT mainstream then, perhaps it will be after this is over.

They were NOT unique.

It was a police state, a totalitarian state... and the mechanisms that led to its rise are similar across the ages and geographical instances.

In fact, Hitler's Germany has a LOT in comonn with Chile, Spain Italy, Mother Russia, Guatemala, Bolivia, Colombia, Argentina, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and so on. The only differences are in the political philosophies going there.

You are the one who is smug.

And I expect you to come to any threat that points to these commonalities in method, and scream that we are doing a diservice to the victims because hitler was unique

Perhaps you should scream at her too, or plain out not read the book, if that offends you that much

[warren pease]

216. We'll just have to agree to disagree, then...

I see no point in further argument. I know what I know and you know what you know and they appear to have been derived from completely orthogonal world views.

Still, for your own good, stay alert and watch their every move. You may not accept the reality of the fascist boot until it grinds your face into the pavement, but it's been laced up, polished and ready to go for quite a while.

Best of luck,

wp

[cali]

219. Thanks. That's good advice.

And speaking of fascist boots; Alberto Gonzales has hired a high powered defense attny. You might consider that the worm is turning.

[MonkeyFunk]

75. You wouldn't be allowed

to post that in a real fascist state.

The hyperbole here makes my head spin.

[mmonk]

76. We have free speech zones.

We have detention and release. We have incarceration without trial. We have phone taps and email intercepts. We have no fly lists and harassment lists. We have dissent groups infiltrated. How long do you want to wait until it becomes something you can officially recognize?

[warren pease]

77. And coming soon to a dictatorship near you...

RFID chips in passports. National ID cards with ALL your personal info on the magnetic strip. Ever-expanding electronic surveillance powers. The irrelevance of congress as a check or balance. The pollution of the federal bench by federalist society vetted judges. A list of "top-tier" democratic presidential candidates who won't commit to getting out of Iraq by 2013. A senate that concerns itself with censuring anti-war advertising, while lining up behind the insane Joe Lieberman to put the official stamp of approval on all the old recycled lies about Iraq and apply them to Iran.

All this and Cheney's snarl, too.

What a country.

wp

[cali]

81. All of those points are valid, but the OP

and many posters on this thread indulged in laughable hyperbole. We also have lawyers fighting incarcerations without trial. We have congress attempting to rectify warrentless wire tapping. We've always had dissent groups infiltrated- and in the past it was at least as bad as now, and there's pushback on that. It's one thing to say we're in a protofascist state, or on the road to one, it's entirely another to compare Guantanamo to Dachau or the state of the American press today to the German press of 1936.

Discernment is important when makin these judgements and historical comparisons.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. The same went on in Germany

read Naomi Wolf's book and get informed.

You may read Shirer too

[cali]

111. I plan on reading her book.

And I've not only read Shirer, I've studied the period extensively. You're hardly the only person with a Masters in history.

It's laughable and slightly insane that YOU with the misinformation you've posted on this thread, are telling me to get informed. You just throw out tautologies, and make crap up. And when exposed, you just throw more crap.

Bad practices.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Like articles from the Shoah institute

okie dokie

[mmonk]

92. There are lessons to learn in history and how systems fail.

No we are not Nazi Germany. We are something we weren't before though. The key, I think, is to not keep letting the system break down and slip away and to recognize the dangers. Right now, we have the lawless still negotiating their lawlessness.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. And our legislators remind me of the ones under Mussolini

they tried to negotiate under the rule of law, well after negotiations were gone

By the way... another hallmark, those Presidential signing statements, they are the equivalent of governing by decree, which is part of the method used to close down a society.

[mmonk]

104. Yes, our lawmakers aren't "getting it " yet

the same as the legislators in Italy at the time.

[MonkeyFunk]

87. You are free to step outside your door

and say anything you like.

You can say anything here - and people do! Every day! And so far no DUers have been rounded up.

It's hyperbolic drama-queen hysterics to claim we're in a fascist, totalitarian state.

[mmonk]

108. Everything takes place in steps.

It doesn't transform overnight. All degrees of fascist or authoritarian government are not the same nor come about the same but they have echos that are.

[MonkeyFunk]

121. well

I just don't buy the hyperventilating screams of fascism I see here regularly.

Remember the canceled elections of 2002, 2004 and 2006? Neither do I, but we were told here repeatedly it would happen.

It's a fact that your life, and my life, isn't appreciably different regarding basic rights than it was in 2000. I can still say what I want, go where I want, no soldiers are quartered in my home, and the courts and congress are still operating.

There are things to be concerned about, and need to be fought. But it's always been thus. These are not America's darkest days.

[Phillycat]

131. Don't you?

Remember the canceled elections of 2002, 2004 and 2006?

Look, I do agree up to a certain point that some of the people on this thread might be taking it too far, but there DOES seem to be a logical A to B relationship between where we are now and where a true totalitarian fascist state ends up.

Re: the elections. They weren't cancelled, but I don't believe they were free and fair, either. With 300 million people in this country, they couldn't just CANCEL them. But they could, say, make them turn out the way they wanted to through unverifiable voting, couldn't they?

[MonkeyFunk]

138. Then why'd they let Democrats

win both houses of Congress?

Sorry, but I just get tired of these threads that make ridiculous comparisons to Nazi Germany or other totalitarian states. It does a real disservice to history, to the truth, and makes DU look idiotic.

[cali]

155. It's all part of their nefarious plan to make us think

that there's any difference between the dems and the repukes. You know the drill.

[mmonk]

205. It has in regards to our civil rights and protections.

It just hasn't been used against us like others yet. I am familiar with people that are on the harassment list. I do suggest picking up a copy of Naomi Wolf's The End of America, Letter To A Young Patriot. If nothing else, you'll find it intriguing.

[mmonk]

221. I thought I would add this note.

A Doctor in my town, a citizen, immigrated from Pakistan. Every year, he would carry hard to get medicines and fly them to Pakistan to help the poor. After 9/11, when he returned from one of these flights, he was not allowed to get off the plane when he landed and was sent back to Pakistan while his staff was waiting in the lobby of the airport.

A friend of mine from Iran who is a citizen now, introduced me to a friend of his who befriended him. We find out later through a confession from this friend that he worked for the CIA.

Barbara Olshansky, a constitutional lawyer from the Center for Constitutional Rights is stripped searched on every flight she takes no matter where the destination.

The Green Party leader from my area is forbidden to fly out of the country every time he tries.

When I went to meet Stephanie Miller at the Franklin Hotel in Chapel Hill, her flight went through Washington, DC. When she arrived, she had to go through the search line instead of the regular passenger line. Then she was routed through Pittsburgh instead of directly to Raleigh/Durham.

Lala_raw raw's (of DU) cousin who is a 30 year legal resident of the US was picked up by immigration in one of Chertof's operations and was transferred from detention center to detention center ahead of lawyers and family.

Maybe things are happening around you that you just aren't noticing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. Let me add some to this list

Senator Kennedy was on the no flight list several times... it took some effort to get off

Randi Rhodes, like her or not, she was in the no flight list as well

Citizens groups have been penetrated and spied upon by local, state and federal law enforcement, which has not been done since the good ol days of Contrielpro

And I will add Jose Padilla, detained in the states and denied all kinds of rights and sent to the navy brig.

And his partner in the lawsuit against Rumsfeld, Hamdi, who was sent to Guantamo.

The list is becoming larger, isn't it?

:-(

[mmonk]

227. Yep.

And I've heard there are at least two lists for flying, maybe more. They use different intimidation techniques.

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. Among you and me, I am amazed I am not in one of them

long story, but my activity is beyond just posting on a message board

On the bright side, when this is over, I'll be able to tell my nephews yep, while you grew up and played, some of us were in the trenches kids!

If we loose... and yes the thought crosses my mind every so often... there is a price to pay...

:-)

And why I am amazed at the usual suspects who come out every time and poopoo the messengers

(And of course our short hand for the man, Agent Mike, that is why posting on a message board does not scare me)

Hi Mike

:-)

[mmonk]

234. Same here. But I've got pretty good political connections

in that there are a few political people I have correspondence with. Funny note about the agent Mike thing. I was listening to a speech by Barbara Olshansky about the time right after 9/11 when her office was swamped with calls of people whose loved ones disappeared. She said while she was trying to locate people, she asked witnesses and people if they got any names from any officials. She mentioned that some said the name they were given was agent Mike. I like to have fell out of my chair (of course I thought about DU). I have that speech on DVD.

[nadinbrzezinski]

236. My, that is a story

interesting... and if you think about it... Mike is a very common name... I wonder if it is code?

Hmm

;-)

[mmonk]

238. Quite freaky if you ask me.

I started to wonder if they were told if anyone ask you for identication or a name, just tell them Agent Mike.

[MiniMe]

241. "so far" being the operative phrase here

These things don't happen overnight.

[cali]

78. No shit.

Did you catch the comparison of Dachau to Gitmo? It was so lame, historically speaking. And how about how Germany had a free press until 1938. I posted clear refutations and got back bullshit or crickets.

[mmonk]

83. While Nazi Germany is the historical extreme

it nonetheless has lessons because there was a time before Dachau or the Enabling Act. If you read Naomi's book you'll see comparisons of all types and she has relatives from what I understand on both sides of the family that were holocaust survivors.

[cali]

93. Yes indeed. I'll agree with that.

But I'm talking specifically about the hyperbole on this thread, and the poor analogies drawn by the OP. They don't bolster her argument. They undermine it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. What part of

THE METHOD TO CLOSE A SOCIETY DOWN are you still purposely missing?

Will you get it when you get a knock at the door?

It is too late to fight back at that point, by the by

[cali]

105. What part of

you can't just make shit up and be thought credible, don't you get?

For the tenth fucking time: I understand what's going on here, and the peril we're in. But your ridiculous claims that the state of the press now in the U.S. is the same as in Germany circa 1936, just undercut any argument you have. Comparing Greg Palast not being published in the Times to Freidrich Reck-Malleczewen, who had to hide his diary, for Christ's sake, beginning in 1936, because he criticized Hitler in it, is just ludicrous.

Your comparison of Dachau to Guantanamo was pitiful. Again, you aren't doing yourself any favors.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. You expect things to deveop the same way?

My. my... study the method. It is different from nation to nation

By the way Palast has been harrased by DHS, but I'm sure you knew that

[cali]

123. No, and of course I didn't say that.

What I'm trying to do is defend the facts and history that you're mangling. Because the truth matters. It's really that simple.

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Whatever

have a good day

[cali]

140. "Whatever"

the last refuge of someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on.

I must say, I really am appalled by your "scholarship".

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. As I said, we don't agree

and yes whatever

I don't have to prove a damn thing to you.

I explained things to you... I even told you that it was YOUR INTERPRETATION that we were dealing with POST 1938 Germany

Alas, we are not

So, we can agree to disagree that we are living now in a nation close to being closed down

You don't see it, fine

I see it.

Hell, I'm alarmed by it

And here is the great FUCKING HUGE CLUE FOR YOU... this will not be Nazi Germany. This will be an American version of a totalitarian state.

It will share elements with OTHER STATES ACROSS HISTORY INCLUDING NAZI GERMANY, but it will NOT BE NAZI GERMANY

is that crystal clear for you? Or do you need it spelled out in ways I cannot even fathom?

[cali]

162. You, ma'am are the one who started with the parallels with

Dachau and the state of the U.S. press vis a vis the German press circa the 1930s. And you posted flawed "facts", easily disproven.

NO shit, sherlock; what happens here won't be Nazi Germany. Fucking brilliant clue there. And straw man number 150 or so in this thread alone. I've never remotely hinted in ANY of my posts that I thought what that any form of totalitarianism or fascism that MIGHT arise here would be a clone of Nazi Germany. And yet YOU are the one that compared Gitmo to Dachau. Totalitarianism always draws its form from the existing society.

I'm alarmed by things to, but I loath and detest the type of bullshit faux history, faux intellectualism that you've been dumping in this thread and in other threads. And I will refute it.

You haven't provided even a scintilla of evidence for the comparisons you're making.

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. FYI Dachau was opened as a labor camp on March 20th, of 1933

the Dachau of 1933 was NOT the same camp the allies liberated in 1945

Even in Dachau there was an evolution in means and method... but I am sure you, in your great knowledge of history, knew that

Oh and here is one of the many timelines on line

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/dachautime.html

[cali]

181. No shit. And I made that clear in my first post. about your

fallacious comparison. I know the history of Dachau. I even told you approximately how many people died there in the first few years of its operation. And I hardly need the timeline, dear- though you surely do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. Ok lets revisti this since you obviously read what you wanted

there ARE ECHOES

THERE ARE ECHOES OF THE METHODS used

HOW MORE PLAIN CAN I BE?

If that is fallacious to you... so be it.
Oh and my comparison of these two places is to EARLY Dachau and the creation of a NEW NORMAL

Is that crystal now?

[txaslftist]

159. You're wasting your time.

He will never get a knock on his door.

This is the aspect of a police state that nobody understands these days. If you get up in the morning and go to work and drink coffee and cuss at the high prices and go home and screw your wife and hug your kids... You never get a knock on the door.

If you go to your computer and bang all day on a website, but never leave your house or say anything really bad, like a threat, you never get a knock on the door. You can talk about fascism all you want on a website and debate it with your friends, and escape into role-playing internet fantasy about "fighting the man"... You can do that all day, and you'll never get a knock on the door.

You can attack in the press remote figures that you have no influence over, like the Pelosis, the Bushes, the Clintons, etc... You can write virtually any terrible thing you want, and you will never get a knock on the door.

Because you are no threat. As long as you are productive and don't break the law and don't possess information or evidence that can REALLY hurt them, you can do what you like. You won't get a knock at the door.

It's when you start to organize resistance, or to point fingers at vulnerable people, or bring forward real proof of wrongdoing that cannot be denied... That's when you have to worry about the knock on the door. Otherwise you are just another good German, no matter how much you gripe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. I realize that

and even when people start disapearing, because they pointed fingers

Or they were denied entry into Canada (code pink recently) becuase they have done things and are on the FBI list, does not matter

Hell, a US Senator was in the no-flight list

But that doesn't matter either

It is amazing at times...

[MonkeyFunk]

166. Name

a totalitarian state that allows full and free expression of ideas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. early in the process to close down a society ALL DO

we have sugested to you books, yet you keep shooting the messenger,

I wonder why

[cali]

214. LOL. Maybe because the messenger and the message

are a garbled mess.

[nadinbrzezinski]

217. They thought they were free

read it.

The following quote applies here

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

[MonkeyFunk]

247. aww... poor victimized Nadinbrzezinski....

I feel your thesis is stupid and overwrought. That's all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

280. I'm sure you do

and to tell you the thruth... most folks in all societies that have closed down, have accused those who have sounded the alarm... as alarmists, paranoid, ever persecuted folks

You are like most average folk.

Nothing wrong with that.

One day, and hopefully you will be right and not me, you will wake up and realize that those alarmists were not persecuted, were not paranoid, but were right

The problem is that like most average people... it will be will too late to do something about it

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. People were still in the streets in the Third Reich in the mid 1930s

People were demonstrating after Pinochet took over in the streets

Italians were allowed to speak out until the middle of the regime

Boots don't fall early in the process

[defendandprotect]

99. Well, let's wait until all freedoms -- including the internet -- are gone; then will you let us . .

call our nation a corporate-fascist state?

Please, may we????

[MonkeyFunk]

146. Tell me

something you can't do today that you could do in 2000, except may fly without taking your shoes off first.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. So since I am not on a no fly list

that means that does't exst

Or since I have not been randomly detained, that means that doesn't happen

Now I will tell you one thing I can't do

I can't go demonstrate against the president without self incarcerating myself in a free speech zone

Tell me when did free speech zones became normal.

[MonkeyFunk]

You can protest the President

all day, every day. You just can't do it in close proximity to him.

That's bullshit, I agree. But I haven't heard of "free speech zones" since the 2004 convention. It was stupid then, and if it's still going on, it's stupid now.

But that doesn't mean we're now a fascist state. Your comparison is absurdly overblown. You can protest 'til the cows come home and nobody will stop you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. What part of free speech zone are you missing?

As some others have said, just because you don't hear people knocking on your door in the dead of night, does not mean it is not occurring

Just because you are not in a no flight list does not mean it is not occuring

Just because you are not inconvenienced with detain and release pracrices, does not mean it is not occuring

Just becuase it is NOT happening to you does not mean it is not happening

Will you aknowledge it when it finally is so obvious you cannot deny it?

People were also called alarmist during the rise of many of these regimes because quite frankly it could not happen here... and those alarmists were proven right when all was said and done. Some of them even died becuase they raise the alarm.

By the way, once YOU finally aknowledge that there is a problem, it will be too damn late.

We still have time... but I guess Conason, Wolf and others who have published and documented this are also full of it, and alarmists.

[MonkeyFunk]

192. What can't you say today

that you could say 7 years ago?

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. Once again and very slowly

just because you can still say what you want does not mean it is not happening

Now if you asked these questions to Dan Rather, Donahue and Greg Palast you would get a very different answer

You are not that critical to keep people in line, and netiher am I

A marker of a totalitarian state is that the first people to have their rights curtailed tend to be members of the press, or other people that can be used as examples, and the other.

Now tell me... do we have a press that is free?

I think those three individuals will have a very different answer than the one you expect

Now when YOU have to watch what you say... you've crossed many markers that you are refusing to see

You truly need to read They Thought they were Free... and read it for method... aka how people went from speaking their mind to not speaking their mind.

[MonkeyFunk]

194. Again...

what can't you say today that you could say 7 years ago?

Answer that simple question and then we'll discuss how idiotic your comparison is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. Again, READ THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Read for method

Read Wolf

And TRY TO EDUCATE YOURSELF as to how societies get closed down

And I did tell you what I can't do... and you laughed it away...

FREE SPEECH ZONES....

Now you have the example

FREE SPEECH ZONES

I CANNOT GO AND PROTEST THE PRESIDENT ON A REGULAR STREET IN THE US WITHOUT GOING INTO A FREE SPEECH ZONE.

That is the new normal, the new normal YOU have accepted

[MonkeyFunk]

198. Your exclamation points have convinced me...

I will report to the re-education camp immediately.

[nadinbrzezinski]

204. Good comrade

I see that you are the good american that will continue to shoot the messenger

;-)

[cali]

212. Yes, you are the noble and self-sacrificing messenger.

Could you possibly be any more full of yourself?

[nadinbrzezinski]

218. Nah I just posted a readying list

and as usual the usual suspects needed to tear it down

I could have posted a slightly different list, with the same effect

Or perhaps if I posted Gramsci on top you would not have so much trouble.

My role here is to suggest something

Your role in this is to tear the mere idea that there is a method to this madness down

:-)

It does not mater who the messenger is truly

Here is the quote once again from they thought they were free

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

[cali]

220. Anything you say. n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

248. When the message is idiotic

the messenger should expect a few shots.

[nadinbrzezinski]

281. As I said, you are like average folk in societies that have closed down

you cannot see it... you cannot wrap your head around what is really going on

By the time you realize people you have accused of being alarmists, were right... it's too damn late

[Dystopian]

277. I must interject here....

perhaps will finish this thread later, but can't leave without acknowledging your wisdom and character.
Thank you.
Point made. The end.

peace~

[gollygee]

200. If the US were to become a fascist state, it probably wouldn't be illegal to say whatever you wanted

but someone who speaks out would be labeled a terrorist and would go to Gitmo and not be given rights to see a lawyer or rights to habeas corpus. That would only have to happen a few times before most people would stop dissenting, regardless of what the was legal or illegal. I have a kid I have to take care of. I wouldn't speak out after seeing that happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

203. Lemme see has this happened?

Padilla, Jose, picked up and tortured by the state, refused his habeas rights and in the end tried for something that had nothing to do with this

And you are right, it is exactly the environment in a police state, It is legal to hold your opinion and even express it, but you know better

[defendandprotect]

199. Don't we need passports now to go to visit those suspect nations Canada or Mexico?

Well, do you like the idea of a bankrupted Treasury -- or a broken military?
Does that make you feel safer in any way?
A privatized military -- Blackwater -- make you feel more secure?

Ignoring Global Warming working for you . . . ?

How about being confined to a "Free Speech Zone" . . .

What's the likelhood of being branded a terrorist today vs 2000?
Or an "Enemy Combatant" --

What are the possibilities of being tortured today vs pre-2000?
Or zipped off to be tortured in another country?
Habeas Corpus?

What about being exposed to Bush propaganda, certainly a part of his administration --
some known, some unknown -- we're paying for.

And, I think certainly 2000 was a loud noice of the reality of fixed elections going public ---

Do you think ALL the votes will be counted?

Do you think you can rely on this right-wing Supreme Court -- Gang of 5?

Maybe you also want to comment on the GOP-fascist rally outside Miami Dade Election HQs . . . ?

Or, "the Reichstag fire in NYC" as the Russians call it ---

[MonkeyFunk]

249. you think needing a passport to visit another country

is fascist?

[defendandprotect]

255. Do you recall what WWII was about . .. producing papers was a large part of propaganda ---

Or are you saying in some fascist fantasy that Canada and Mexico are terrorist states -- ????

[nadinbrzezinski]

282. It is the METHOD on how it has been done

and the talk of a national ID card that should make you nervous

The reason you could go to those countries without passports were agreements with those two nations going back over fiftty years.

Tell me why all of a sudden they needed to change?

By the by, they were not mutual, but that is another matter completely

[defendandprotect]

254. Feel confident of your vote being counted ----

[Common Sense Party]

129. This is DU. We never let the facts get in the way of good hyperbole.

Facts? We don't need no steenkin' facts!

[txaslftist]

145. Sure you would.

If the publication was in some minor wing of a majority party's newspaper that nobody but partisans read?

Sure you would.

And in Germany you could write pretty much what you wanted in the press up until about 1938 or 1939. Same with many other protofascist states.

The Title of "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 193_ to 1945" ought to make that much plain to you.

It's not hyperbole when we've killed a million people and scrapped habeas corpus. Our ancestors had to fight a war against a king to pass habeas down to us. Do you understand or even begin to understand how important that is?

It is the keystone to all of our rights. Get this and understand it. Our president has declared that he can unilaterally designate anyone, including an American citizen, an "undesirable" (in his words, enemy combatant), and lock them up forever without a lawyer or a trial or freedom from torture. Some 38 people have died during "interrogations" along these lines.

You may call it what you want, "fascism" or "protofascism" or "an empire" or "decidership" or whatever you like. But you can't call it a "free country" accurately anymore.

[gollygee]

149. By the time it reaches the point where most people recognize it easily

it's too late to stop it.

[defendandprotect]

257. True -- and your photo reminded me of Al Gore's "frog in warm water" fable --- !!!

We may at this moment be simply frogs in warm water --
but the flame is under the pot.

[renie408]

96. So, what do we do about it? Say, vote for somebody who isn't a Republican?

Cause that's my plan. I plan to vote for not-Republicans. Or do we rise up now and take over the government?

What is your plan, since you are already educated, to forestall this totalitarian takeover? Or is this post part of it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. We are quickly running out of time to fight back really

but we need to get more active and demand our congress critters do what they need to do

Hell, we may have to educate them on this matter

They are inside a bubble and like law makers before them they are in denial

[defendandprotect]

100. You don't have to have fascism to demand IMPEACHMENT . . ..

we have an administration which is incompetenet --
which has bankrupted our Treasury --
and destroyed our military --
and our relationships around the world --

We have an administration which is criminally corrupt ---

and, there is more than "suspicion" which seems to be all that is required --

After all, they did impeach Clinton's penis ---

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Oh I have and I do

but another mark of the new normal is that we don't want to do go there since it will be, ahem disruptive, per the words of Nancy Pelosi

Again, that is a new normal... and we may have crossed into a less than functional judiciary as well

[defendandprotect]

107. Oh, yeah . . . definitely problems with our system of "justice" ---

You see it in the Nixon years with the buildup of the prison system -- phony drug war --
incarceration of minorities/blacks
Return of racism to politics and government
Arming of right-wing Israel ---

Attempts to intimidate the press ---

The black box voting also got started in late '60 .... see VOTESCAM written in early 1970's . . .
by two journalist brothers. So, the shock of 2000 was seeing this vote stealing in the open, but it had been going on since long, long before -- decades!

Nixon was dirty long before Watergate --
He was solicited by Prescott Bush to do the bidding of the very far right --
He demanded not only his Congressional salary but a slush fund, as well.

In the Clinton years, the GOP refused to approve his legal appointees for positions around the nation -- and, as far as I know, they never took the hold off on any of those. I think there were over 200 of them that never got thru and presumably the spots remained open?

Of course, everything Hitler did was legal because he had rammed thru the Nuremberg Laws?
So he had Judges in place who would do filthy deeds for him --
Not unlike our Gang of 5 on the Supremes -- !!!

[renie408]

101. Here's the deal...

if you say, "Fascist Regime", our congress people are going to turn up their noses way more and faster than the people here did.

So, I am thinking that is not the way to go. The way to go is to write and call. And write and call. Then we write and call some more.

[defendandprotect]

110. There are people in Congress who would call the administration "fascist" ---

In other words, you're recommending that we waste some more of our time ---

If that works for you . . . go to it!

[renie408]

207. What are you doing that is working for YOU? You smug asshole.

And fuck all of you rude arrogant DICKS who think that shitty one liners solve anything. I am sick and goddam tired of being told that I am not doing anything. What THE FUCK do you want me to do? Head down to Washington with a shotgun and hold Congress hostage??

So, ASSHOLE, tell me what you are doing from your computer chair to change the country? I am sure you won't even vote if your favorite candydate isn't on the fucking ballot. So, FUCK YOU and the smug keyboard you rode in on.



Whew. That felt good.

[cali]

211. Whew. I know exactly how you feel. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. I may just drop Wolf's book at her office

Perhaps she may even read it... but she won't have the excuse of saying she didn't have it available

[cali]

134. Believe me, my Congress critters have it

all over you when it comes to being educated. That's right: All three of them run rings around you. I trust Bernie, Pat and Peter's grasp of the facts AND of history, over yours any nano second of the week.

[Common Sense Party]

133. Does anyone think these practices will stop when the Democrats

win back the White House?

[renie408]

208. Of course not. We are doomed, DOOMED, I tell you!! n/t

[defendandprotect]

258. Vote for Edwards + vote against all Repugs, including those in Democratic Party -- !!!!

That is . . . I won't vote for a DLC candidate ---

[lovuian]

106. Yep its the NWO

a military state of which are hard earned money and children are going to the wars

[cali]

136. Yes, let's spread wingnut memes like the NWO. That's showing 'em. n/t

[txaslftist]

116. Whether you think we're a protofascist state or not, that's a hell of a reading list....

recommended!

[Faygo Kid]

125. Agreed; "Rise and Fall" one of the greatest books of all time; add "Explaining Hitler"

I would add "Explaining Hitler," but no one should go through life without reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich."

[jpgray]

132. That's fucking idiotic

The vast gulfs between the situations should be obvious to anyone, and those massive, astronomical differences make any such comparison disingenuous, unusable, and filled to the breaking point with error. Unemployment was astronomical, their currency was far weaker than ours, people were out in the streets rioting, the SPD was brutally putting some of those down under Noske--the two simply aren't comparable. At fucking all. Not on a societal level, not on a political level, not on a level of reactionary practices, not on any level at all except a dilettante's parlor game of "there are pleasing similarities, therefore I'll ignore the overwhelming crucial differences and pretend my comparison is wholly valid."

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. Read wolf

in fact she is surprised that this new totalitarian state is rising in a stable society

By the way, fascist does not automatically imply Nazi... I know, I know must people jump to conclusions, but it does not

The method is the same... but how it is implemented is different from nation to nation

[jpgray]

137. I'm sorry, but wasn't your first link "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich?"

Conditions in this country are not anywhere -near- as dire as those in Germany in the 20's and 30's. A comparable situation would be Nancy Pelosi organizing a group of enforcers to kill Nader and Kucinich in the streets--when that happens you might have more of an argument.

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. If I had put at the top Common Sense

would we be talking of Tyranny then?

By the way, the links to common sense refused to behave last night

[jpgray]

143. These historical analogies ignore vast epochal differences between societies

There are similarities, but to say "we're heading this way, look at the similarities" when using these very different historical societies as your evidence simply isn't logical, and ignorance of those big epochal differences can make the comparisons offensive to people. You can argue as Wolf does that we are engaging in authoritarian practices that are conducive to fascism, but I'm deeply offended by analogies that imply we are going down the same inevitable path as Nazi Germany or fascist Italy. We're nowhere -near- the level of political reaction that occurred even before Hitler took power in Germany.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. We are talking of method here

some societies have had some of the ten steps that Naomi Wolf identified... and if you read The founders, they describe many of them.

Dark prisons

Closing down of a press

Detainment and letting people go...

and so on

It was until the 20th century that many of these were perfected

And we are seeing them implemeted in the US, right now

And it is suprising that it is happening in a society that was well to and fairly stable

[jpgray]

161. The 20s environment that spawned the Nazis had far more independent newspapers than we do here

If I used the simplistic analogy method, I could argue that 20s Germany would be far less inclined to fascism than this country now. This, however, ignores economic differences, political differences, social differences, and differences in the level of reaction. The 1919 German Ralph Naders were fucking killed by the Freikorps, not just ignored by the media.

Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht were captured and assassinated in Berlin on January 15, 1919; she was rifle-butt-stroked, then shot in the head, and her cadaver flung to a river; he, too, was so killed, then deposited to a mortuary as an anonymous cadaver. Likewise, hundreds of KPD members were summarily killed, and the Workers' and Soldiers' councils disbanded; the German proletarian revolution was ended. Four months later, in May, Rosa Luxemburg's cadaver washed up on the river side; a Freikorps soldier was imprisoned for two years for her summary execution death.

Still seem like the same kind of thing to you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. Read the book

truly, read it

Societies are closed down under different circumstances

But many of the steps taken by every authoritarian society are in place right now

I may point to Chile, which had a stable society when Pinochet took it over

It got uggly faster than it did in Germany. Augusto closed it down in under a year.

Germany, depending who you read, took anywhere from eight years, starting in 32, to 12 years, starting in 28

There were fundamental differences between the two societies as well.

Now the method relies on fear, and on creatinb an environment where a new normal is created

In germany things like the freicorp fights iwth the SD created a need for law and order... and a sense of security.

In chile it was the communists, but both created internal enemies. We have internal enemies right now, and you and I are it, liberals. External enemies were also common... for the Nazis is was International Jewry, especially after they took care of the commies. For us it is Islamofascit...

And I could go on

But the fight for freedom is universal, why I pointed to the founders who would not call these authoritarian systems fascism, but rather tyranny

[jpgray]

165. The SPD -wanted- those KPD folks dead. Do you know anything about the period?

The guy who put down the communist revolts in a brutal matter was Gustav Noske, the Social Democratic defense minister. He helped to organize the nationalistic right-wing Freikorps, not the Nazis. And this was well before the Nazis took power. Do you see the massive difference there in political environment? The Social Democrats were bad, but the Nazis were far worse. We don't have anything comparable directly to either group.

[nadinbrzezinski]

170. Yes I do

and I will stand by what I said... when you study the METHOD in closing a society down, you will find steps, Wolf pointed to them.

They are the same steps, even if the history is different from country to country

Hell, we could use Mussolini's italy as a model

or coutries that were protofascists and never fully went there, like oh Mexico post 1968, where SOME of the steps were taken, but not all

[Hardrada]

225. Good point on the Freikorps. We've had nothing like that.

Also these analogies can't work. There are not so many working parallels to a very different society which had no democratic tradition, a still flourishing officer corps much of it hereditary, actual communist takeovers of cities, military mutiny on a large scale (1918-19), insane inflation and a massive hostility to an unfair peace treaty. Another point which I never hear brought up is who corresponds to the German Jews in our society? I can't think of any big group here which is in a similar position of peril.

[nadinbrzezinski]

226. Wolf argues Liberals

which by the way the Jews were not first ones, but the communists

And once again read these books for method on how you close a society

In fact, she is surprised that this is happening here.

[Hardrada]

239. I think that one time more people identified themselves with liberals

are there any liberals left? For instance,DLC people aren't.Among political candidates only Kucinich seems to what real liberals once were. The spectrum is not the same as in Europe almost 80 years ago. That's another issue.By the way, I get my social analyses from the anarchists mostly. And from some Marxists also. The fact is that we have two social classes MISSING in our society, the lower middle class and the small farmers. These are the two classes which were the bedrock of the National Socialist German Workers Party movement. I don't think cubicle rats have enough oomph to defend what they consider their national honor by going out and brawling in the streets. No ma'am. The many facets of difference I earlier mentioned still apply also as well as the utterly different social class structure.

[nadinbrzezinski]

240. The only problem is that I have not implied that you will see

THIS totalitarian state go down the same exact play book at the Nazis

To say that would be stoopid at the highest levels

But the methodology to close a society is there for anybody who wants to see it

And this society does not have small farmers, but it has a middle class that is going down in flames... and that is the seed of revolutions historically... a matter for another discusion

But the method requires internal enemies

The list right now in the US are as follows

The Liberals (nice catch all... and no Ameircan Liberals are not lefties in the Classic European sense)

The so called liberal press

Mexicans and other minorities, though that will get the play as needed

Perhaps Jews soon enough... we always end in the shit list anyway (and that is from all sides)

External enemies

Easy, islamofascist. They are a fantasy, and have an inkling of truth, but are not as powerful or ever present as the mythology makes them to be

At this point your readying of the history should be not for actual point by point comparisons but the method

I highly recommend wolf's book on this.

[Hardrada]

245. As I previously mentioned I avoid bourgeois sociopolitical analyses.

You should read Noam Chomsky sometime. Also, are you using bizarre grammar on purpose to mess with our minds? Also, lighten up a little. Use more sports analogies for instance like "Hitler blew it in the 9th inning!" More persons might be attracted to your point of view.

[nadinbrzezinski]

284. Wolf and Chomsky are on the damn same page here

read him too

Hell, the manufacturing of consent should be reqiired readying

[defendandprotect]

260. America is a liberal nation - you're being lied to in polls, etal.

[cali]

144. The claims of the OP throughout this thread are

outrageous and offensive- offensive because the disregard for facts and the truth is a constant theme. Did you catch the comparison of the state of the press in the U.S. today to that of Germany circa 1936?
When presented with a definitive primary source, the OP still insisted on its validity, insisting that the refusal of the WaPo ant the NYT to publish him, is proof that the U.S press=Germany's press circa 1936.

Or how about the comparison of Gitmo to Dachau? So many similarities, right? Well, actually very few that the OP could give.

The outright distortions in this thread disgust me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. Cali are you goong to continue this?

You don't like the comparisons based on the METHOD to close societies down, it ain't my fault

I don't pursue you

But at this point I am not going to filter you out either

[MonkeyFunk]

157. Damn!

We STILL can't recommend individual posts? Sigh...

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpgray]

171. Are people being killed in the streets in large numbers for holding leftist views?

No. Do we have an astronomically high unemployment rate? Nope. Do we have an ultra-right-wing secret police force that does battle with leftist rioters regularly in the streets of our major cities? Nope. The two situations simply aren't comparable. Doesn't mean bad shit isn't happening here, it means "this is just like the prelude to Nazi Germany" arguments are the stupidest fucking arguments on the planet. They are incredibly offensive, filled with errors, and show a massive ignorance of history that any person should be embarrassed to put on public display.

[nadinbrzezinski]

174. Chile didn't see those fights either and it was a stable society

let me be plain about this

Those books POINT TO A METHOD to close down a society

Now each society that has descened into that hell has followed a slightly different path

Expecting OUR version of totaliatiarism to follow the NAZI model, just becuase I posted that as the first reference, is not accurate.

That is you readying into it.

I recommended a series of books. I could have easily added Gramci into the list.

So if I used Gramsci does that mean that I was talking of Italian Fascism and saying that we are on the verge of Italy 1938?

No

But the echoes are there

Perhaps if I had the Gulag Archipielago you;d say we are talking of Russia under Stalin (which shares all elements of a closed society)

No... these books are about method

Read them as a guide to method.

Why I also added some of the Founders in the List

Feel free to add the Federalist to the list by the way... and the antifederalists. Both point to the fears and hopes of the founders.

[jpgray]

185. But our economic and social environment isn't similar to Chile, Italy or any other example you give

So the methods aren't the same. They are vaguely similar only if viewed in complete isolation from other very interdependent factors. Rather than focusing solely on the few tantalizing similarities, why not recognize the vast differences and refuse to make the disingenuous claim "this is just like the methods used in x." That's not an accurate, valid, or useful statement in the way you've used it, because the similarities in each case are outweighed by epochal differences.

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. BINGO now you get it, the societies ARE DIFFERENT

but the end result can be the same

That is the closing of a society

The steps to close a society are well underway... under our noses

And that is what is so revealing of those books. Once you read them for method, commonalities emerge.. aka the method

[Swamp Rat]

244. Interview in Göring's cell (3 January 1946):

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_Göring

[nadinbrzezinski]

283. Always relevant... and one of the GOOD things he did

leave that for future generations to chew on

[txaslftist]

175. We don't need those things.

The astronomical unemployment rate was not a result of fascism, it was a cause of it. We don't need an ultra-reich wing force to battle leftist demonstrators, because there aren't any violent leftist demonstrators.

What we have lost is simply the whole bill of rights.

Because if the executive can designate you a certain kind of person, an "enemy of the state" or an "enemy combatant" or whatever, and lock you up forever, you don't live in a free country anymore, pal. And our executive can do that. He can also spy on you (he has), wiretap your phone (he has), ship you off to a torture palace or torture you right here in our own Gitmo (he has done this, too).

You don't like it when we are compared to Nazi Germany? Shit, Nazi Germany wasn't that bad, for ordinary German folks. Up until the Russians and Americans arrived, they were doing pretty good, all things considered. Of course, it was the shit for the Jews and other "undesirables" and "dissidents", but if you kept your mouth reasonably shut and didn't pose a threat, you were fine.

You don't like it when "alarmists" compare us to Nazi Germany? Fine. But don't think for a second you live in a free country or that we're any great shakes.

[jpgray]

183. Our society isn't even very similar to the environment that made the Nazis possible

And if you think Weimar Germany "wasn't that bad" for ordinary people, or that Nazi Germany "wasn't that bad" for ordinary people, I don't need to waste time arguing with you. By that rationale leftists and the working class aren't ordinary people. This doesn't even speak to the fascist rule of the Nazis, but just the prelude--it was really -misery- in Weimar Germany if you were a member of the working class. Nearly every German family was affected by this hyperinflation and unemployment, and this had a huge impact in giving the Nazis their 140-odd seats in the Reichstag--Hitler expected to get only fifty or sixty.

[cali]

188. You really are a total

creep. And I could care less that this will be deleted. You use hate sites as sources to stories, and you utter complete ahistorical bullshit of monumental proportion.

[defendandprotect]

261. Do you want to wait until liberals are killed in the streets in large numbers?

Journalists are being killed everywhere --

And liberal organizations are once again being spied on ---

How long do you want to wait to have fascism choke off any response?

[cali]

173. Yes. SOME of that is true.

Fortunately, in contrast to what the OP claims, the U.S. press is not the exact equivalent to the Germany press of 1936- OR YOU WOULDN'T BE READING SY HERSH.

Some of the verifiable things you list are indeed terrible, but not evidence that we live in fascist society. Such atrocities are NOT limited to a fascist society.

By the way, if you're going to toss out verbal bombs- like the accusation that as a matter of policy U.S. forces (you did say WE) rape women and children to make insurgents confess, you damn well better provide some evidence of that from a credible source, you git, or I will alert on your post. And that includes the claim that we rapes women, took pictures of them and showed the pictures to their families.

You claim these are verifiable facts? Make haste and verify. Like now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. Once again thanks for readying what you want

and not what I wrote

Echoes... method

and yes, even if you don't like it, there is plenty of "oposition press" in totalitarian societies, in some even late in the game... yes EVEN GERMANY

But our press is far from free any more.

We have remnants of a free press, and things done on the edges,

But authoritarian societies also had those.

Damn... it all...

I know it is hard to speak of method... when you really do not want to speak of method

[cali]

184. Sorry, this is fucking ridiculous: Put up or shut up.

Really. Give some evidence that there was an opposition press late in the game- as you put it- in Germany, that operated even remotely openly. Oh, yeah and really read "Diary of a man in Dispair". I mean you're so well educated in the period that I'm sure you know the book. And you can always run off and google it if you don't.

I've concluded that you really don't have a clue what you're babbling about. Not a clue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

190. Middle of the game for starters

but since you know all about German history and you read what you want, no I don't feel I have to

Late in the game is 1945 and apart of the underground press, yes there WAS a resistance inside of Germany, and one we refused to work with, no, there was no independent press. Hell late in the game is '42.

By the way... you still to refuse to aknoweldge that there is a METHOD to close societies down.

And that is what that readying list is all about Cali.

Perhaps you should read more into the method next time you read those books...

[cali]

197. LOL!

changing the goal posts are you? And late in the game is when the Reich cemented it's control over the populace. Hell, I'd argue that happened in '35 with the Nuremberg Laws.

As I said, I've read all but one book on your list- and many, many more. Have you read the book I suggested?

As for your vague shit about METHOD, yes, of course there are tactics for "closing a society down", as you put it.

And now I'm done.

I just want to add, that somewhat ironically, one of the folks you commiserated with about my lack of understanding, posted some vile shit with a link to an out and out hate site- mostly anti-semitic. Those posts are now deleted.

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. Expected reaction of course

and no Cali that is what that readying list is about

METHOD

METHOD

METHOD

METHOD

METHOD

METHOD

Why I incuded the ahem usual suspects that have your panties in a wad and the not so usual suspects

let me add some for your presonal readying pleasure

Antonio Gramsci

http://soc.qc.cuny.edu/gramsci/writings/gramtrans.html

La noche de tlatelolco by Elena Poniatowska

http://www.exodusltd.com/Elena_Poniatowska_La_noche_de_Tlatelolco_p/9684114257.htm

Open MIT courseware on Chile

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Political-Science/17-508The-Rise-and-Fall-of-Democracy--Regime-ChangeSpring2002/Calendar/

And of course you should add The federalist

The antifederalists

John Locke on Government

And of course even Burke.

Oh never mind, you will still claim none of this is relevant

Why bother?

[cali]

228. you have a very unpleasant habit of putting words in my mouth

I never claimed that the books you listed weren't important or relevant. I took you to task for the glaring mistakes you made. You continue to push a lot of crap, and you've been soundly repudiated, not just by me but by jpgray and others.

I said at the beginning you have a point, but by delving into poor historical analogy and outright absurd, inaccurate claims. you obscured it.

And oh, just a clue, try writing an OP where you DON'T assume that people aren't educated.

Though I must say, here at DU, you're living proof that you can bullshit a lot of the people, most of the time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

231. So do you

by the way, I wish I could have the sunny hopeful it can't happen here attitude that you have

And for the record I hope you are right.

[cali]

233. If you think my attitude is sunny and hopeful

you're not paying attention, but compared to what you believe, almost anything is hopefull. And sorry, I have not mischaracterized what you've written.

Good night.

[nadinbrzezinski]

235. Yes you have

and I am sorry but at least on this thread it has been a kill the messenger attitude

Good night

(I am sure that when somebody else, or me, point another threat like this you will be back, by the way)

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

187. BWAHAHA. A discredited bigot and conspiracy, theorist is NOT a credible source.

Unfucking believable. I knew that name rang a bell, pal.


Ah yes, the levees were blown up in New Orleans. The Jews put some strange kosher tax on food, lining their pockets, international jews control the world media, and on and on.

For the love of anything that's decent, this is an organization that published the Protocols of Zion in spanish as evidence of a world plot for domination by the jews.

have you no decency? Or is it that you haven't a brain? Or perhaps you're just a vanilla flavored run of the mill bigot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voz_de_Aztlan


You're right about one thing: Google is my friend.

[Perry Logan]

148. I think the Repugs had a go at fascism. But they were just too inept to bring it off.

I'm also pretty sure that we wouldn't be able to say whatever we want in these forums if we were really living under fascism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. You'd be surprised how late in the process people were able

to take to the streets and demonstrate on multiple socieites that have gone down that road

[iheartobama]

222. Just read this thread....

.....and that's 1/2 hour I'll never get back!

[2Design]

230. First link does not work - BUT this book is essential in showing

how it built slowly to the point that it was too late - the signs were all there as they have been here for quite awhile - people will act just as surprised or ignore the camps as they do abu grab and gitmo - they pretend the usa is not torturing and killing people, women and children even when there are photographs and the media supports ignoring the truth

Just take one book and skim it and see how it all built and how the "bully' of difference of opinion 'force' people to believe the same thing - I am glad to see someone again bring this up - I know I pointed this out back when this regime started and I had seen the book in the book store and started to skim it and spent the day going through it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. It was working last night

:-)

Sadly they at times go away.

And as you said, there are folks who will deny it, even when it is no longer deniable

[BelgianMadCow]

246. Thank you Nadin, bookmarked

for reading your references.

[redqueen]

256. Thank you. It's very disheartening that people think that we're not in a crisis.

Just yesterday I saw a post wherein someone asserted that things were no worse now than they've been before.

*sigh*

[defendandprotect]

262. MOST people do understand that we are at crisis stage -- Globlal Warming's threat . . .

to humanity and the planet, itself, is undeniable.

Notice, the up is down reporting goes on still --
colder than normal winter
hotter than normal winter

and that's true also of all health and science reports!!
If you can't confuse them with propaganda -- confuse them with "up is down" reporting -- !!!!

Like Bush's report that there's only a glowing economy !!!

And, someone mentioned unemployment -- we have no idea what the real unemployment figures are --
they changed the report babis - and you are not longer guaranteed unemployment insurance indefiniely -- people are holding two and three jobs!!!

[redqueen]

263. Yup, real unemployment figures have been fudged for decades.

I used to be able to find the 'closer to real' numbers... the table that tracked ALL the respondents who were out of work, not those who hadn't had coffee with less than two sugars on any of the previous four Tuesdays which didn't also coincide with a full moon. :crazy:

[cali]

267. Oh, I think we're in a crisis right now, but

if you don't think this country's been in a crisis before, and arguably as serious constitutionally, if not environmentally, you're being too dismissive of the past.

And claims that the state of the U.S. press is as bad as the press under the Reich, and that Dachau=Guantanamo, to make your points, doesn't help.

[renie408]

271. Wasn't there something about a 'civil war' here once?

That was kind of a big deal too, wasn't it?

[Cleita]

259. You might want to add Naomi Wolf's

"The End of America, Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot". I just finished it. She compares step by step the fascist shift in this country since Bush took office and compares it to similar occurrances in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Pinnochet's Chile and others. She ends by saying she has had auditors completely comb through all her past business affairs and tax returns to make sure that there is nothing Homeland Security can find to harrass or arrest her for before she had the book published. She doesn't trust our country anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

274. I think I did

if not you just did

:-)

Hell, there are so many books that I could have added...

[Blue_Tires]

264. ttt nt

[earth mom]

269. Please add Diary of Anne Frank and Night by Elie Wiesel to that list. nt

[Mutineer]

270. Well gee, maybe if Pelosi grew a pair of balls

along with the rest of the Dems, we wouldn't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

275. We are the gov'ment, not Pelosi

to her we are only outside agitators and language matters folks

[renie408]

272. To those people who think that we are in a fascist police state...

and that your vote will not matter and neither will petitioning congress...what are you doing about it? I got news, bitching here isn't worth the time it took you to write the post. If you are truly convinced that this country is doomed, what are you going to do about it?

Naively, I still have faith in the system. But should I lose that faith, I would have to come to the conclusion that the only option left to me is to raise up in arms and throw down the government. Period. So, for those of you who DO believe that we are there, what are you doing wasting your time here? Go get organized and take things back.

I think there are pockets of people with fascist leanings in this country and, naturally, those kinds of people are going to have a tendency to gravitate towards positions of authority (Get it? Authority=Authoritarian). I think that we shouldn't be complacent. I recognize that there are problems in this country and that our civil rights have been eroded. I also recognize that the pendulum is approaching the apex (?) of it's swing and it is getting ready to swing back. That is what politics in this country do. They swing one way for awhile.....then they swing back. I think we are approaching a swing back in our direction.

If you are going to march on Washington with guns and homemade bombs, you might want to get at it before the natural ebb and flow of politics in this country renders your angst over the current 'fascist regime' obsolete.

[nadinbrzezinski]

273. I was up at the crack of dawn this morning

marching to keep a progressive station on the air

But I am not naive

I know where we are... and the system is not working

Read John Dean's Broken Governmetn if you don't believe me, or Naomi Wolf's The End of America

Rennie boots don't come down all of a sudden... the process is slow

[noise]

276. Another important book

Peter Dale Scott (from The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire and the Future of America):

I consider the scandal of Ali Mohamed's tolerated terrorism to be symptomatic of an ongoing fundamental problem, for which we need a more serious remedy than a change in the White House. As has happened after past intelligence fiascoes, the U.S. intelligence agencies were strengthened as a result of the 9/11 Commission and their budgets increased. It is time to confront the reality that these agencies themselves, by their own sponsorship and protection of terrorist activities, have aggravated the greatest threats to our national security.

Today we learned that CIA Director Hayden is upset with the CIA Inspector General because he appears to be biased on the issue of torture. Lest we forget, Gen. Hayden received two successive promotions (DDNI then CIA Director) despite being in charge of the NSA in the lead up to 9/11.

Read Wolf's book and Scott's book and then tell me things are ok.

[upi402]

278. kick

:kick:

[nadinbrzezinski]

279. Trust me I know they are not

the problem is tha most folks truly believe what they have seen in movies across the last fifty years depicting the SS knocking on doors and bashing skulls

They don't get it, that happens, but usually after the ilusion of freedom needs to go

[Cleita]

285. That's what the Good Germans used to think.

Hitler's party was always a minority, but they ruled the majority, not a good thing. We seem to be approaching one party rule too. It doesn't matter that most of us are liberals and progressives. Our party has been infiltrated with conservatives and if they prevail, what the rest of us want isn't going to matter because they will be representing us after we have to hold our nose and vote for them.