Defenders of Pelosi and the House Democrats take note.

[mmonk]

While it is good they are trying to "fix" FISA (which it in itself walks a line since it is a secret court), let it be understood they shouldn't have been put in this position in the first place. Understand those that ring bells are warning people and it's not a question of not being loyal. Let me provide you with a few passages from Naomi Wolf's, "The End of America", chapter 11, "Subvert the Rule of Law", pp. 145, Copyright Naomi Wolf, 2007, Chelsea Green Publishing.

“At this point, the speed of these moves itself is disorienting: It takes some people some time to figure out what has happened. (In a very moving scene, Italian legislators were still frantically trying to engage in standard political negotiations with Mussolini-even as he simply waited for them to realize that the time for negotiating was over.) That psychological hangover-that delay in “getting it”-is a very dangerous time. This is the moment when action is most necessary, and this is the moment when the window is closing”.

“In Italy and Germany, legislators kept believing that they were still engaged in the negotiated dance of democracy-even as the militaristic march of dictatorship had begun.”

-snip-

She further explains that a shift in the later stages is an establishment of government by emergency decrees.

In chapter two of this book, she explains that the Enabling Act allowed for tapping of phones and opening of mail and that legislators who were terrified of terrorism and didn’t want to seem unpatriotic passed The Enabling Act by a vote of 441 to 94. She also explained that Hitler’s predecessor was a centrist that tampered with their democracy weakening their democracy that opened up the stage for Hitler’s transformation of that government.

I’m mentioning this because the bell ringers here aren’t always “purists”, ignorant of the way politics works, “trolls” or “plants” (though some occasionally show up). Sometimes, the criticisms of the bell ringers are the cry from a Paul Revere. Somebody may be just trying to tell people something.

[BridgeTheGap]

1. So true.

It's entirely possible we won't realize what's happened until it's too late. You shouldn't give up your standards for what's right for the sake of political expediency, Dem or not.

[acmavm]

2. I beg to differ. I think every damn one of the realizes what the true

cost of all this anti-Constitutional, invasive, anti-democratic shit is. They know that once a right is taken away, it's nearly impossible to get it back (alcohol consumption is the only thing I can think of right off hand). And our worthless crew of back-stabbing jackals that we sent to Washington so they can collect a paycheck from us while they're taking away all our rights and protections are in it up to their rotten necks.

[mmonk]

3. Let's hope not.

Anyway, citizens need to be vigilent which seems ever so much harder to be with people working longer and a press that never alarms anyone into questioning anything.

[lateo]

4. "the cry from a Paul Revere"

There are certain people here that shout down criticism of Democrats, especially the DLC variety. It doesn't matter if what you are saying is the truth. They will defend that person's actions.

[MedleyMisty]

9. And call you names

and say you're a troll and blow your arguments completely out of proportion and come up with all sorts of accusations based on logical fallacies. They like to pick some silly opinion that may have actually showed up in a few posts and generalize it to all of DU and start new thread after new thread lecturing all of DU for holding that opinion and piling on - remember the Ahmadinejad flames and how obviously if you thought that there was the faintest hint of propaganda you were in love with Ahmadinejad and thought he was the greatest person ever and also thought that anyone who expressed hate for him wanted to invade Iran?

And now of course, anyone who has any qualms about Hillary Clinton is a Republican troll who wants the Republicans to win and is probably sexist. Oh, and a "purist". And thinks that Clinton eats babies.

Last night I wrote a post in which I said that Americans are like cows milling around outside of a slaughterhouse and whenever one cow tries to jump the fence, the other cows pull that cow back in.

The best theory I've been able to come up with is that some people really just don't want to know the truth and don't want to know what we're up against and they cling to the old ways of doing things and shut out information that's contrary to their safe and familiar worldview. Which is human and understandable, but we really don't have time for it. I grew up researching the Nazis and the Holocaust and WWII, and I'll be damned if I go calmly and willingly into that slaughterhouse.

[mmonk]

11. I missed

"Last night I wrote a post in which I said that Americans are like cows milling around outside of a slaughterhouse and whenever one cow tries to jump the fence, the other cows pull that cow back in."

Sounds interesting. Can you link it for me?

[lateo]

22. Exactly.

We all know who they are. They stick out like sore thumbs and sound like broken records. DU rules forbid me from naming them though.

[Dr.Phool]

5. Amazon shipped that book for me yesterday.

Sounds like some good reading.

I'm very dismayed at how easily our Congress is rolling over. It may already be too late.

The sad fact is, that if you don't like what your congress-critter is doing, you have to put your entire life on hold for about 2 years, and spend every waking moment begging people you don't know for millions of dollars.

That's how we got in this position to begin with.

[mmonk]

7. What you say is true

and I want to also add the book is an easy read and lays things out well. A very worthwhile book.

[bryant69]

6. It's an assessment isn't it?

I don't think the parallels are there - I don't think we are in the last stages before a dictatorship is declared (and for the record, I don't think we are actually in a dictatorship either). Hell if Pelosi really is in the same spot as those italian legislators what would starting impeachment hearings accomplish? How would Bush react?

Anyway we'll see how this FISA debate shapes up - i rather expect to be dissappointed, unfortunately.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mmonk]

8. Nobody said later stages, she just explained what the later stages

are. But we are nowhere back to where we were either. Read the book for a more detailed assessment.

[bryant69]

12. So I have to read a book before I can react to an attack on Speaker Pelosi?

That's convienent.

Bryant

[mmonk]

13. Do you really think that is what I'm trying to say?

[Perry Logan]

33. I agree. The parallels are bogus. What a weird argument against defending the Democrats!

I defend the Democrats constantly, largely by quoting sources that prove the Democrat-bashers have got their facts wrong. This drives the bashers nuts--obviously because they want to ignore inconvenient facts and go on saying the same nasty things about Democrats over and over. And they think they're so cool!

[mmonk]

41. So you think the executive branch has

been engaging in the give and take of our governmental processes with the democrats?

[OzarkDem]

10. "this is the moment when the window is closing"

Dems in Congress - now is the time to stand and defend our Constitution. Wait and it may be too late and too much damage done to repair.

Keep in mind, this increased power to spy on Americans probably has nothing to do with terrorism or Iraq, but with stealing the next election.

[bbgrunt]

14. I lost my innocence about what "amuricans" want and

are ready to defend in Nov. of 2004. While a very select few in the media seem to be becoming a bit more critical, I think it is all a part of the mosaic that is meant to lull us into thinking we have a hope while they are trussing up every loose end.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Your point is noted ..... but it isn't a black and white issue

To take what you say literally is to see yet another black and white, binary posit.

That posit would seem to hold that "the Pelosi crowd" (I coined that phrase, you didn't) is well meaning but unaware of what is really happening.

I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in between. Possibly quite close to one or the other of the poles, but more than likely closer to the center.

Or not.

And for what its worth, it seems to me, personally, that the Pelosi crowd is quite aware of your posit but sees it as less solid/valid/real an issue than you do. That doesn't make them right or you right or them wrong or you wrong. It only means there's a difference of opinion.

[mmonk]

17. My message isn't painting them black or white but rather

don't kill the messenger without adequately assessing the message.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. Actually, I was trying hard not to attack the message or the messenger

I hope it was taken that way. Sometimes its hard to tell because there is simply no nuance on a computer message board.

[mmonk]

25. Oh I didn't take it that way.

I was explaining the intention of my OP.

[nashville_brook]

19. i read this as a plea to appreciate the "gray-ness" -- n/t

[mmonk]

20. Yes, the gray-ness is when the hardest looks, discussion,

and assessments should be taking place. People shouldn't be shut down so to speak.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. It wasn't a 'plea' ...... it was, however, intended to say there are two sides to some issues .....

.... particularly issues for which no hard metrics can be developed or set out for comparison.

[The Stranger]

16. Yet here on DU the pedantic reproach those trying to wake the people up.

It is like a bad dream again.

[nashville_brook]

18. nail meet hammer -- bell ringers aren't necessarily trolls and neither are the loyalists

as Wolf points out, we are disoriented with the political landscape shifting beneath our feet. My sense is that our leaders can be just as disoriented as we are. we are all hung-over -- some are vomiting and some are nursing a migraine.

[Wiley50]

21. With this issue, I fear that there will be no joy in it proving to be correct

Nut, nonetheless, I side with the bell ringers

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. I'd hate to be right

but I fear you and I will be proven right.

Perhaps I should get a copy of book and send it to my critter

Yep, the one I just called and told aide, if she votes wrongly on this, aka not protecting the fouth ammendment, I fear she lost my vote

The aide sounded tired, but a tad shocked

[mmonk]

27. Good for you.

They need to hear.

[riverdeep]

28. "It can't happen here."

I'm very much on board with Naomi. Because there is a strain in America that has an anti-authoritarian streak, the process to fascism hasn't been in quite as much in a straight line as it would be in, say, Russia. There has been some pushing back, like the courts declaring certain things against the law (although this administration just does it anyway). But make no mistake, it's here. This isn't Burma where they shoot you on the street (yet), but they're getting what they want without having to do that.

I get the strong feeling that people like Pelosi are treating this whole affair as some sort of model U.N., where the stakes aren't real and participants are bound by rules and decorum, rather than the world's most powerful gang, mafia, crime syndicate, whatever you want to call it, grabbing the reigns of this empire. Of course, there are those that don't think this is an empire either.

[mmonk]

29. Incrementalism is our enemy.

And that's how it could happen here.

[puebloknot]

31. The book "Defying Hitler," by Sebastian Haffner, describes...

...the incremental change you speak of. There have been other posts here with listings of books about the rise of the Nazis, and in all of them there is a description of how normal life was, how people went on with life as usual right up until the time when the dead-of-night knocks on doors started.

In fact, although life may feel normal to us (pay the rent, buy the groceries), things have changed radically in terms of our civil rights. It's just that we don't have reason to even know that if we aren't ardent readers of political blogs, or unless something happens to us personally to make us realize that we're already in a totalitarian state, but the new PTB are just keeping things sub rosa from the general public, to make it easy to continue their takeover.

A few years ago, if I'd read this post I've just written, I'd consider the author a paranoid lunatic.

I'm reading Naomi's book, too. It's a winner. Straightforward and couched in terms the "common man" can read and understand.

Thanks for this post.

[mmonk]

39. Thanks

[Kellanved]

30. Err... huh?

“In Italy and Germany, legislators kept believing that they were still engaged in the negotiated dance of democracy-even as the militaristic march of dictatorship had begun.”

Nope. Lawmakers only lasted for a few weeks.

[mmonk]

32. May I see your timelines?

Neither state became what they ended up being overnight. The seeds for the change in Germany were actually started in earnest after 1918. Italy, in the 20's.

[Kellanved]

36. easy

January 30th, 1933 Hitler was appointed
February 1st, 1933 Dissolution of the Reichstag
March 5th, 1933 Elections
March 8th, 1933 Disenfranchisement of the communist lawmakers
March 23rd, 1933 1st session, empowerment act - obvious end of democracy.
July 5th, 1933 End of the last democratic party

I'd say, lawmakers had between a few hours and about three days of illusions.

[mmonk]

37. There will be no march on Rome or night of the longknives here.

But there exists parallels or echos in steps. Our democracy is harder to crack but it has indeed been cracked. We can't let it slip further. The concept of "sleeper cells" comes to us via Stalin's Soviet Union. "Homeland" and "shock and awe" via Hitler's Germany. But that's just a little window dressing. Dictates (or presidential interpretations in order to ignore the legislative branch) through signing statements have become virtually decrees. It's too much to get into in a simple reply on a message board. It's not about exactness but about what parts of a republic to attack or control to render it dysfunctional. The same things to control before you achieve your ends.

[Perry Logan]

34. Comparisons with the Nazis don't work for me, because Republicans are far too stupid and cowardly.

If these guys tried to annex Poland, Poland would beat the crap out of them.

[mmonk]

42. Yep.

So they forge documants to give a reason for invasion just like Germany did and they engage in "shock and awe", a term described by a German reporter at the time.

[Richard Steele]

35. K&R

[LittleClarkie]

38. Conversely the defenders are not necessarily enablers

apologists, closet Republicans, and the like. Meanwhile, if someone calls Rep Pelosi "Bush's ho" well, they tend not to sound like Paul Revere. Takes all kinds on both sides of the issue and both sides have a right to civil discussion.

Flamebaiting, namecalling and such are another matter.

[Kip Humphrey]

40. I confess... to being a bell-ringer: The bell tolls...

it tolls for all of us.