Venezuela/Chavez

[Lyric]

I've seen a lot of really disturbing posts in practically every thread about Venezuela/Chavez, and I think these points need to be made.

1. Criticizing Chavez does not equal "Bush supporter", "RW talking points", or "Freeperism". Lots of folks criticize left-leaning *American* politicians here, and don't receive an automatic label of "right-winger". Therefore it makes no sense to accuse people who criticize Chavez of being "right-wingers". Criticism of the Left does NOT equal support of the Right. Being able to criticize our own rather than marching in lockstep is what makes us BETTER than the right-wingers.

2. "The USA does it too" is not a valid argument. The USA isn't exactly a paragon of Proper Governmental Behavior, and considering the Liberal nature of this website, it's pretty likely that most of us disagree with the iron-fisted, repressive actions that *our* government takes, too. Criticizing the same actions when Chavez or anyone else commits them makes us consistent, rather than hypocritical. Again, that willingness to "call out" our own is what makes us BETTER than the hive-mind right-wingers.

3. Just because Chavez is George W. Bush's enemy, it does not automatically make him *our* dear friend who should Never Ever be criticized. For most of us, he stands or falls on his *own* merits--regardless of his "Lefty" status. "Leftist" does not equate to "Infallible Good Guy". There have been Leftist dictators, assholes, and megalomaniacs in history. Stop the knee-jerk reactions to every single post that hints of doubt about something Chavez has done or said. Frankly, I think I liked the guy better before I had the misfortune of watching his self-appointed DU Crusaders take a verbal axe to anyone who dares to question his actions. Fanaticism is not a good color for a Liberal. I'm naming no names, but if you're full of righteous indignation and/or outrage after reading this, it's probably a safe bet that I'm talking about You.

That's all I wanted to say. Proceed with :nuke:

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lyric]

4. So I'll chalk that one up as an "I disagree"?

:shrug:

[angstlessk]

9. Sugar, come up with a reasonable debate..and we can talk, honey

[Adsos Letter]

20. Sugar? Honey?

ah, when ya ain't got nuthin' else go to the insults, I s'pose...

[L0oniX]

2. I suspect that freepers are trying to cause problems here.

[Zornhau]

3. I completely agree

I would say most of these points also apply to the rabid supporters of any of the candidates. No body (not even your favorite politico) is perfect.

[tammywammy]

5. Agreed

[SeattleGirl]

6. Well said, oktoberain

I swear, we've been invaded by a troll brigade, guns drawn, fingers on the trigger, ready to shoot down anyone who doesn't agree with their self-righteous opinions.

[tkmorris]

7. I have seen NO ONE claim #3

And very few #1.

[tammywammy]

10. I've seen #1 quite a bit

I don't usually posts on the Chavez threads, but I do read them. There's always a few #1s on there.

[angstlessk]

11. A few...equals a debate to all?? I think this person is anti Chavez

maybe had rich relatives who hated Chavez giving money to the poor at the cost of the uber rich? THE MUST HAPPEN IN AMERICA ALSO IF THE MIDDLE CLASS EVER HOPES TO REGAIN ITS TOE HOLD

[Critters2]

14. Your post makes the OP's point brilliantly.

Yep, the only people who don't hail Chavez as the freakin' Messiah are rich Venezuelans. :eyes:

[Mutineer]

19. Or Bush supporters.

Yes, that's the official DU Line and anyone who dares believe otherwise is immediately tarred, feathered, tried, and executed because you know, they're good liberals!

[cali]

28. Do you have any idea what you sound like?

Evidently not.

[Lyric]

13. #3 is not so much a direct claim as a statement about

a frame of mind that seems to exist in some of his more passionate supporters. But #1? I've seen it enough.

Like here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2034931&mesg_id=2035360

And here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2034931#2039972

And here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2034931#2037469

It's wrong for people to assume that everyone who criticizes Chavez is repeating "RW", "Freep", or "Bushco" talking points. It sounds like an implication that no "Real" liberal could or would criticize Chavez on their own, which (if that's the intended meaning) just ain't so.

[Whisp]

8. phfffftt!!

that's all I have to say.

[puffymuffins]

12. Viva the truth to power! Great Post!

[rudeboy666]

15. Great Post

In a way, I could understand why many pro-Chavez supporters are wary of negative press reports and their discussion thereof (I grant that oftentimes these stories are just right wing propaganda meant to discredit Chavez).

However, I cannot understand the hatred on the part of some pro-Chavez reactionaries (and I am confident that they are a tiny minority). It seems that any criticism of the leader is not tolerated.

As a liberal, I welcome critical inquiry. No one is above legitimate criticism.

[Lyric]

16. That's exactly what I meant.

The vast majority of Chavez supporters here are willing to discuss, willing to consider, and willing to critically examine.

But there are a few who just go ballistic whenever anything even *potentially* negative about the man is mentioned, and that sort of behavior on a Liberal website is spooky. No public official is above criticism, and not all criticisms of him are repetitions of "right-wing talking points".

[Adsos Letter]

17. Great Post, oktoberain...

nice to see someone demonstrating complex thought as opposed to the usual kneejerk, black & white stuff that has been pretty well represented by some in this thread.

[Sparkly]

18. Knee-jerk

I think there are knee-jerk reactions to certain names and words. This is one of them.

(By the way, didn't Amnesty International come down on Chavez for human rights abuses? Maybe they should be called "Amnesty International Talking Points." :shrug:)

Here's a different perspective, too: http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/francisco_rodrguez/2007/01/francisco_rodriguez_on_chavez.html

Good post.

[angstlessk]

21. IF the rules regarding the leftists in South America were the same as the I/P

debate..you SOUTH AMERICAN LEFTIST haters would not stand a chance! Because all your sources would be considered anti- latino(semetic) or not news...sorry...it is true!

[Lyric]

22. Please continue.

You're so very good at demonstrating my point.

[angstlessk]

23. No, your point was that anyone who is not against Chavez is for Chavez

and we must be either or. Most progressives believe in the Chavez movement because he supports the PEOPLE OVER PROFITS...you corporatist type hate everthing he does..EVEN IF IT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOUR BOOSH BOY DOES...

[cali]

29. I gather you don't have a clue as to the rules

in I/P. Your post makes no sense. But carry on making yourself look foolish.

[rjones2818]

24. Let's see...

I'm pro-Chavez and pro-Bolivarian Revolution. I think he was within his rights and acted fairly with RCTV. I think he's doing quite well with what he's trying to do in Venezuela. Has he done everything perfectly? No, of course not. But, he's carrying off a pretty powerful transformation of a country by bringing the disenfranchised into their political system. Remember, he's been elected, faced a recall which he won and been re-elected with over 60% of the vote. He must be doing something right.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lyric]

26. I just read back over my OP and didn't see a word about

"delusional lefties", or even a single comment about what *my* personal beliefs about Chavez are. I don't oppose him *or* support him, because I don't know enough about him to make that decision yet. My post wasn't about being against Chavez--it's about the right to criticize him just like any other politician while keeping the level of debate at "Mature" instead of "Meltdown".

As for your initial comment--it's against the rules to "call out" other DU'ers by name in a thread. Your comment on the state of my "balls" (or the lack thereof) is both irrelevant and sexist.

Edited: my mistake--I'm guessing you aren't new to DU after all, since you are apparently "BornAgain"

[BornagainDUer]

44. state of yer balls is sexist???

:rofl:

[UTUSN]

27. K&R #3 for, you said it better than I. n/t

[Cha]

30. Yeah, I like Chavez and Morales

and I don't care who doesn't think they're not the Universe's gift to their respective countries.

I've seen some awfully militant anti-Chavez forces around here and inside the beltway, though.

[struggle4progress]

31. Re #1: Of course, there is nothing wrong with honest criticism. But if someone

spouts rightwing talking points, I think it's entirely fair to point that out and to object. Unfortunately a large fraction of the anti-Chavez remarks that appear on this site are simply rightwing talking points: these talking points are easy enough to identify, and they're dishonest. If anyone doesn't like Chavez, wants to explain why, or want to try to convince me not to like him, that's completely fine with me -- but please don't expect cheers if the post merely echoes rightwing noise, because frankly, a lot of us are quite sick of the noise machine.

[struggle4progress]

32. Re #2: The Administration and their supporters regularly attempt to distract

attention from their own crimes by shrieking and pointing fingers elsewhere. It is important not to be misled by this tactic, not only because the crimes of this Administration are serious, but also because the underlying rightwing agenda is vicious: our political system has suffered from a concerted rightwing attack in recent years, and the imperial ambition associated with that attack has produced the ugliest foreign policy I can remember.

Those of us who live in the United States have some obligation, not only to attempt to protect our political traditions but also to fight against the brutalizing instincts that use our tax-dollars to produce secret prisons and to torture "suspects."

As it is simply impossible to do everything needed for an ideal world, some sort of triage is required: one must decide which of many existing issues are more important and which are less important. The situation in Venezuela does not constitute a human rights emergency at the level seen in other places, such as (say) Sudan or Burma or Haiti or Colombia. In fact, the situation in Venezuela does not seem to involve an emergency at the level of the emergency presented by recent American abuses.

It is true that certain people persistently mis-state such an argument in the fallacious terms you reference, namely, as: anything that happens in Venezuela is okay because the US does the same thing. The actual point is rather different, however: it is that Venezuela does not appear to me to belong on my emergency list (though some other foreign states, such as Colombia, do belong on that list), while (unfortunately) the current US situation puts the US itself on my emergency list

[bvar22]

33. Rebuttal:

1. The Chavez government and the Bolivarian Reforms are a VAST improvement over the previous Corrupt Colonial Corporate Oligarchy.
I know. I was there.


2. Venezuela belongs to the Venezuelans.
Chavez had been elected and re-elected by overwhelming majorities in open and transparent elections.
He enjoys the popular support of the Venezuelans.
Chavez and the Venezuelans don't care if you don't like him.

It is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[Greyhound]

35. There ya go, that is the whole argument in 4 sentences and a couple of fragments. Thanks. n/t

:kick:

[struggle4progress]

34. Re #3: Although debunking the Administration's war-mongering propaganda

is not synonymous with believing an enemy of our political enemy is our friend, the rightwing noise machine will always misrepresent any effort to debunk its propaganda as evidence that opponents of the propaganda adore so-and-so. Thus, for example, efforts to debunk propaganda promoting war with Iran have regularly been misrepresented by the Administration's supporters as evidence that liberals love Iran.

The Administration, of course, is desperately searching for any distraction from its catastrophic Iraqi adventure: at one time, they used intervention in Haiti as such a distraction, and they have floated trial balloons for similarly intervention in Syria, Iran, and Venezuela. Experience suggests that is important to try to shoot such trial balloons down, lest we find ourselves in another unnecessary conflict with yet more innocents dead. But the rightwing response is predictable: it is to reframe antiwar activists as people who like Ahmadinejad (say) because he isn't Bush's buddy.

Your claim that Duers like Chavez because he dislikes Bush bears an unpleasant similarity to this rightwing noise

[cigsandcoffee]

36. Pretty soon we're going to need a Chavez dungeon. n/t

[EFerrari]

37. No public figure is or should be above scrutiny.

But saying "Chavez is a dictator" ad nauseum without a shred of fact to back it up, sort of like your OP, is just silly. And that is what happens on those threads. DUers who are interested in Latin America post information. Chavez detractors, like the OP, make inferences that should sprain spines from the stretch from reality, based mainly on the hit pieces that come out like clockwork every week in our media.

I invite you to pull up any of those threads and do the math. :)

[Dark]

38. What really irked me about him was the shutting down of opposition media and his buddy Ahdaminejad.

n/t

[killbotfactory]

39. What opposition media did he shut down?

You mean the channel that's still broadcasting on cable?

[killbotfactory]

41. oops

oops

[Incitatus]

40. I remember something about him not renewing the license of a station that supported a coup

Is that what you are talking about?

[killbotfactory]

42. Let's see: The most powerful country in the history of Earth Vs. Chavez

A country who has a long and bloody history of subverting democracies in Latin America, setting up brutal military regimes, and then stealing the resources of poor third world countries for as long as possible, while exploiting the population and murdering anybody who objects.

A country that has already tried to overthrow Chavez through identical means.

A country that has murdered hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq, made refugees of millions, and condemned an entire nation to civil war and the most horrific violence anyone can face, because they had a resource under their feet that we wanted.

Golly, I wonder why people might be a bit defensive when it comes to Chavez and blatant corporate propaganda demonizing him at every turn?


Oh, hey, did you notice Venezuela has a lot of oil resources?

[UTUSN]

43. No, I think the issue HERE at DU is "a potent, committed group of Hugo supporters vs disorganized

dissenters."

Your subject title emphasizes, correctly, the "doesn't fit" contrast of a perspective being out of kilter.

What we have here is a near-DAILY thread(s) on Hugo, usually in LBN, a few of which are neutral news but usually are a drip-drip of another and another SEEMING step towards authoritarianism -------AND------these threads are chock full of the pro-Hugo posts that defend ANYTHING he does to the last-person-standing-to-the-last-scorch-of-the-earth. The kernal of the supporters are extremely knowledgeable, citing endless articles, and committed to the core, AND unquestionably idealistic. All of us DUers share SOME idealism, in varying degrees, while we also engage in street fighting. The kernel of the Hugo idealists are also surrounded by an outer cloud of name callers--- calling anybody who disagrees with them "corporatists, DLCers, tools," not to mention downright personal attacks.

If Hugo is SUCH a speck ("Earth vs. Chavez"), here at DU his supporters make him a colossus. Yeah, something is out of perspective, all right.

[Snarkturian Clone]

45. Excellent post. Thank you. NT